Mindset

[DelicateSound]

*[spin off of Gun thread, yes. However PLEASE do not make this another US V Europe/Gun VS No-Gun debate. Willow, put that rednecked comment away, OK?! Black Jack, disarm yourself. Literally, I can't help but imagine you're sat there with a tripod mounted 50.cal on your desk :D]*


Anyway, my question is:

Do we overlook the importance of combat mindset in our training?

The average granny with the Colt 45, has she got the mindset to be able to take down that psychopath? The theory has been mentioned on here, but I don't think so.

However, in the UK there was a young woman named Lisa Potts. When the childrens picnic she was supervising was attacked by a psychopath with a machete she showed immense bravery in defending the little ones in her care, receiving serious injuries in the process. She showed selfless courage and bravery, but how many people here think that Mr or Mrs Average could repeat the same thing? Could YOU?


Is this an aspect overlooked in our debates here [esp. the gun thread*] and in our training. Would we go to jelly in that situation?







Think about it.







*PLEASE no gun/anti-gun crap. On the other thread. Set up another one if you need to but this thread is NOT about the gun debate. Thank you for your consideration.

[Radhnoti]

Yeah, I think the "will to do what needs to be done" is a big part of fighting...but I think I'd (personally) worry more about recognizing the fact that I'm in a situation where I need to pull out all the stops. I suppose this is just another facet of the hypothetical you've posed though...
I think there's a "Oh, sh*t." moment when things start happening...and my concern is that I'd lose the chance to act by being so stunned by the unreality of what I was seeing.
So...yeah, I've thought about it, and I try to stay aware of my enviornment and everyone passing through it. Which, I suppose, would be a part of the "combat mindset" you mentioned.
Did any of that make sense?
:D

[Maestro1700]

lol, i bet youd get butterflies in your stomach if you got in a real fight huh delicate?

well..from that post it sounds like you havent even been in a real fight..so whatever heres my reply

no, if a psycho came at me i wouldnt freeze or panic, only idiots do those things, or weaklings

ive never paniced in extreme situations or froze

what kind of martial art doesnt teach aggressiveness anyway?? what the hec have you been learning delicate?

rofl to this post thats for sure..couldnt help it sorry

[Mr Punch]

Good post Radhnoti. I think being aware of your environment is the most important factor in this.

And having your back against the wall must be involved... that no-nonsense fighting link that somebody posted mentioned that if you really want to get away, most of the time, nothing's gonna stop you, which I think is true. If you stay and fight, most people will have a lot of conflicting interests...

But, in the Potts case, she took a look at her environment, and realised she was the only thing between that machete and those kids, so she went for it.

I hope I would have that.

Maestro: excellent post, you spelled everything right... please take it to your teacher for your gold star. Then check the grammar again, there's one mistake... the punctuation, well, boy, there is none now, is there? But I'm afraid the only thing to do for the content, is to print it out and shove it up your arse!:D I think what you are missing is the concept mindset.
Isn't there a model aeroplane forum or something you can join?

[scotty1]

I think part of having that mindset is having your back against the wall. I read something on Animal's site about always giving someone (I don't know what context this in but I understand the reasoning) an escape route, as once somebody knows the only way out is to fight they will fight like a rabid caged animal.

But no, I don't think it's addresed in training really. Apart from making us aware of the possibilities I don't see how it could be.

Unless you're never quite sure whether your Sifu is going to kill you or not.

And I can see the way this thread is going to go if everyone responds to Maestro's blatantly displayed stupidity. So I suggest we just ignore him, save this thread turning into a flame war.

[JWTAYLOR]

Definately a valid point.

I love to see someone the first time they step on the mat for hard contact sparring. The kind of sparring where they recognize that if they do something wrong, they are likely to get hurt.

Three kinds of people.

1. The fighter. Sometimes they litterally RUN into the opponent's punches. These people need little training to survive an encounter. They are not necessarily mean people but they are naturally aggressive and have a "combat mindset" hardwired in. With training, these people become inhuman denizens of pain.

2. The hesistant. These people step in with their head down, do allot of backing up, and focus more on not getting hurt than hurting. This is the VAST majority of people. These people can be trained. But hey have to be drilled over and over and over again. The "survival mindset" must be cultured. They have to be convinced of their own value, and of their ability to protect themselves. In my personal experience, that's what it's all about for most folks. Realizing that no one is allowed to hurt them, they don't deserve it, and realizing that they indeed have the ability to stop aggression.

3. The victim. These are the people who just freeze up. They don't run, they don't fight, they just cower. I've even had a student litterally curl up into a ball on the ground during real hard sparring. They do fine in 2 person drills, they do fine in light contact, but they fall apart when they think they could be in danger. I can't do anything with these people. They are the victims. In the natural world, prey. Maybe someone else can help these folks, but I doubt it. These are the people that, even when faced with death, just lay down and die.

JWT

[DelicateSound]

JWT: Yes I do think that hard sparring can play a part. I had that feeling when I first started. Even gloved up I though "Sh!t, I'm really going to get kicked here" No matter how one pretends to compose oneself, it still takes some thinking about.

Many times in my Judo, I got hammered and REALLY wanted to stay down.


As for 3 kinds of people - yes. Although a generalisation, I do agree.








Maestro - Experience was one of the main stimulus' for this.

[DelicateSound]

Also: The phrase "Nice guys finish last" applies here I think.

I really am a stereotypical nice guy, but over the years I've developed a mean motherf*cker streak deliberately. My nice guy side says that I don't want to hurt anyone, but I understand that to survive you need to be able to flip out and hurt someone.

Radhnoti - that did make sense.


Maestro - Of course you get "butterflies" for a second. For all you know he could be carrying a knife. Fear is a natural emotion that tell the body to fight/flight. The key IMHO is to harness that in a way that you say to yourself "OK, enough BS, this guy is going down".

[Merryprankster]

LOL!!!

JWT--I guess I'm a fighter--"just keep hitting me in the head, you b@stard...wait till I get hold of you!!!"

:)

Although, I prefer NOT to do that, mind you...

[JWTAYLOR]

A good friend of mine, who was a wrestler in college, goes occasionally to our open spar night.

He does ok, but he doesn't understand why he ends up with a bloody nose after the end of every match.

Little does he know we gave him the Indian nickname, "Leads With His Face".

JWT

[ewallace]

All right. I am going to steam this up a little bit.

Maestro...

I don't think you've ever been in a real fight. The "meet me at the bike racks after school" fights don't count. You are what...seventeen? How many extreme situations have you ACTUALLY been in? I don't mean to pick on you dude but I think your full of horse puckey. If you haven't felt butterfly's before a REAL fight then I seriously doubt you have ever been in it for real.


no, if a psycho came at me i wouldnt freeze or panic, only idiots do those things, or weaklings

Horse****. That is human nature. Freezing can mean for ONE second. That is more or less the amount of time that the human nature in us takes over before we decide to act. One second is enough to get hit in the head with a lead pipe. Trust me, I've seen it. That's the kind of crap I'm talking about. If you think you're so bad then walk into a biker bar and tell a few of them you think they are pusssies. It's a whole different game after high school amigo.

[Merryprankster]

JWT--

This sir, is why I have learned to slip.

That, and boxing is plain good fun.

[DelicateSound]

MPS - Hijacked a thread with boxing again eh... :D :p


On a more indepth note - JWT, the "Three levels" you talk of. You give the impression that they can never be transcended? You really believe that? In experience I think you can. I certainly have.

My first "fight" was at the age of 13. I got the sh!t kicked out of me by some older guys. Fitted No.1 perfectly. Just curled up. After about a year of MA I turned into No.3, and I know we're talking school-fights here :D but apart from a little hesitation I used to use the "head down and brawl" to reasonable effect.

Now I think I'm between 2 and 3. I still haven't really got the mentality to just wade in, but I know that to win you need to fight. If any of that makes sense then you'll see my point.


As Joe Foss once said:


"I don't care what kind of are you are, you need to be a fiesty character who's ready to fight"

The man survived a war. Fair play.

[JWTAYLOR]

Well, I guess I'd have to say yes and no.

The examples I mentioned were the type of reactions I get from people the very first time they step in for some real contact. My point about it was that:

For the fighter, no "mindset" modification need be made. They already have what it takes.

For the hesitant, we can change them. We can drill them and drill them and drill them and change what they think is "normal". We can get them aggressive. This seems to be what you were talking about when you mentioned your own personal experience.

For the victim, no, I don't think they can ever be changed. Just something about them. I really do think they will always just lay down and die. When the apocalypse comes, I'll eat them first.

JWT

[Merryprankster]

JWT--I think you have a real point. I've never met somebody who "freezes," as hard core as the victim type who can EVER be trained out of it. They're chokers--- the ones that can tear it up in practice and lose it in the match. When that match is for your life maybe, that's a really bad thing.

[JWTAYLOR]

You know what seems to REALLY bring that out, even more than "bone breaking" contact sparring, knife sparring.

Something about just the thought of a knife that brings the victim out in people.

For this, we do a pretty good drill.

Empty hand vs. knife.

Of course, this almost always means the person with the knife wins, especially since everyone fights everyone else, and a beginner will get at least one round with twice the experience and the upper rank has the knife.

But the drill isn't for the person with the knife, whether they know it or not.

The way we do it, well really this is just a drill I do in my class, is timed. You will fight until the time is over. The time is a minute. That means that usually someone gets stabbed/cut ALLOT in one minute, but they have to keep on fighting. Even blows that would obviously be killing blows, the person MUST keep fighting.

It really shows who is willing to give up as soon as they are hit. And it also drills the idea that you aren't dead until your dead. I want my students to keep fighting even if they get stabbed or cut, and this is a good drill for it.

JWT

[Black Jack]

Hard sparring is not only good for fighting skills but IMHO as JWT pointed out, it lets you feel out your natural fighting mindset, kinda lets you see if you are game or not, which if I was to pick a attribute of hard sparring that would be the most important.

I also believe there are just some people who are born prey, as if in there DNA package a set of neutered genes lay dormant, they cover up, cower and prey to the heavens for the beating to stop, I believe that with psychological and physical training this can be overcome, though it would not be easy.

IMHO what is worse are those type 3's which were not born that way but were brainwashed into that category, to become sheeple, to be victims, this is much more common than a natural 3.

Either you choose your own wellbeing or let everybody walk all over you.

JWT, the knife bit is on the point, pardon the pun, that is a great training drill, a far cry from the bogus aiki-grab the knifers hand and do a amazing double twirl moca twist and he goes flying across the room routine.

One of the ways I do it is to have my back placed against a wall, and to just defend and if possible attack back as best I can against a very committed attacker with a knife, full speed training with the attacker giving out a lot of forward pressure.

My main goal being to give him something back to think about, to break up the beat of the barrage of slashes, thrusts and backcuts coming my way.

Gets the heart pumping.

[stoli]

Training for that mindset is something overlooked by a lot of people, you can still see countless traditional martial arts and even self defence classes teaching complex locks and techniques against attacks and not even touching on trying to prepare people. This gives people a false sense of security in my opinion. They might try out a technique that works fine in the calm environment of training but would stand no chance when the adrenaline's pumping and the other guy is really trying to hit you. I'd rather teach someone some very simple, but effective strikes and techniques but spend time making sure they can use them and are prepared to use them, if they're not then they will hopefully realise this and not try to use some technique that could get them into a lot more trouble.

Training for mindset should involve attackers being very aggresive and abusive, throw protective kit on the 'attacker' (so the students can get used to hitting an actual person) and get them to stand in front of someone hurling abuse at them, rile them up and let your students feel what it's like when some a**hole gets in your face, hopefully they can then get some adrenaline pumping and try to channel it into what they want to do rather than letting it control them.

Finally I think we still have to realise that no matter what you do to make things as real as possible you always know somewhere in your subconscious that you're safe, in a training environment.

Therefore, unfortunately, there's no way to know if people have the right mindset until the event occurs.

Also - disagree that victims mindsets can't be changed, takes a long, long time but can be done.

And what a pity Maestro's left this thread, he was a real fu**ing idiot !!!

[Liokault]

Mind set is somthing I have a real problem with....I think its because im such a nice guy.

When I am about to go into the ring to fight part of my warm up is for my teacher to literaly beat me up for about 5 mins so im good and angry before i get into the ring. Other wise i spend the first 2 rounds doing nothing apart from being defensive. (in a 3 round fight this is a real problem).

I do worry that in a real situation when you need to turn on straight away I will lose the moment and my attacker will get the first punch in before I realise I am in a fight.

[JWTAYLOR]

Liokault, that's a real problem, and something you should start addressing pretty d@mn quick.

That's the kind of thing that will get you killed. You are allowing the opponent the advantage. Put a weapon in his hand and that one shot he gets in before you get angry is all he'll ever need.

JWT

[DelicateSound]

Liokault. I had it drilld into me as a kid not to fight, not to cause trouble, and I was just the same. I kind-of forced it out of me at the age of 15-16, and now I'm somewhere in the middle.

JWT - I guess I agree that some people are just victims yes. I am by nature an argumentative sod, so I wouldn't ever have put myself in 3.

One REAL BIG thing I think is confidence in your skills. If you don't believe 100% that your sh!t CAN work, you will fall apart IMHO.

I used to get that a lot.

[dnc101]

Good thread, and some good replies (not you, maestro).

JWT, I've run into the three types you talk about in other areas of life as well. I have a background in emergency services, and this really shows there. Some people freeze in emergency situations due to lack of training or experience, and some due to improper training. Others just freeze. I've found this is often due to fear that they will do something wrong, even though they understand that the worst thing they can do is nothing. Bottom line, no self confidence. Some of these people can be worked through this if you are willing to take the time and expend the effort. Others will never get through it.

At the other end of the spectrum are the ones who just wade in, as you said. In emergency services we used to train people to first step back and asses the situation. That is good advice with martial arts as well, though you may not have that luxury in sudden violent attacks. One thing every instructor in every field or discipline I've ever talked to will agree on is that under pressure, you will revert to your training. How you train is how you react. That is not to say any of us can't or won't freeze, but your chances are a lot better if you've worked your art like some of the suggestions others have posted here. I especially agree that you have to take some real hits in order to get a feel for what it's like to operate under that kind of pressure- to cover for that moment it takes your mind to recover, to actually land a punch intended to hurt rather than score a point. Better to learn that in a controled atmosphere than in the local tavern.

[DelicateSound]

The "three categories", although a BIG generalisation I think are really accurate. Everyone from Freud to Floyd* has used them, so yes JWT I do agree. And for the 3rd group there is no hope.



*Pink Floyd's 1977 album "Animals". Dogs, Pigs and Sheep. :D



I'll post a poll about this on the main board later. "Which category are you" :D

[ewallace]

Which category are you
Probably a dog but I would eat all three of them :)

[dbulmer]

Good thread chaps.

Last fight I had was at age 16 and it was my fault. Anyway the victim hit me first - I didn't see it coming. I then demolished his face. Afterwards the twat got his sister to get mine - a day or so later I saw him on a bridge - he kicked me and I did nothing !
My thoughts at the time were: Throw him off the bridge. I walked away worried about what the consequences would be - to my sister - not him.

Instinctively when riled I am aggressive however without skill (I am not skilled) it's dangerous as a skilled fighter would tear me apart. (the demolished face came from haymakers I threw - I am sure you understand how daft that is). One of the joys of learning WC is coming to realize how fragile the human body can be and what damage could be meted out.

If faced with a similar situation now I don't honestly know how I'd react - like Liokault, I think I'd be vulnerable to a first strike - yes I know some of the warning signs now etc but I am still unsure how I'd react. I suspect I'd revert to being aggressive but I don't know for sure. My biggest worry would be that I'd try to mix it without using WC.

[Shadow Dragon]

DS & Liokault.

I agree with you there.

Modern society has put a stigma on fighting and violence, we are taught from a young age to do the right thing.

Many a times I have seen skilled MA who could demolish a Bag or dummy, but shied away from hitting their sparring Partner.
Nothing wrong with that as long as you don't think you will use your skill for MA or Sports fighting.
Even the US Army found that their Soldiers needed to be "conditioned" for fighting during WWII, many Troops simply refused to fire their guns on the battle field.

I also agree that many MA Schools and Self Defense classes either don't work on the mindset or go way over the top to get quick results.

Said that I am a firm believer that you
are either a fighter or not.

And I also believe that only a real confrontation will show which one you
are.
I have seen many "tough" Guys chicken out in a fight, and many so called "wimps" whoop some serious ass.

Peace.

[Shadow Dragon]

cont ...

Many Guys told me that they got scared/froze when they realised that neither he nor his Opponent had sparring gear on and any hit would do real damage on either side.

The were also affected by not wearing standard training Gear(keiko-gi) and not having soft mats, controlled environment, etc.

Personally, I think that all those training and sparring gear can give a false sense of how tough/good one really is.

With that in mind I would have to say that the majority of modern MA and to a degree also MMA/NHB does not translate well into real life encounters.

IMHO, there are too many so called "reality/self defense" schools out there that sell an illusion, but make their students more vulnerable than if they were untrained.

Peace.

[Can-O-Bud]

JTW,

What is the best way to train to be able to switch on that aggression and not freeze?

I admin that I sometimes hesitate and I honestly don't know how I would react in a real full-on situation.

It's strange though. I do skydiving for a hobby (600+ jumps) and I can stay cool even when falling to the ground at 150mph+ and deploy my parachute while smiling at the ground.

But does this mean I'll be cool in all situation? Probably not.

Any tips?

[Mr Punch]

C-O-B, if I can jump in with a coupla pennies' worth...

nobody knows how they're gonna react the NEXT time. I've had a few rucks, sometimes it's gone well, sometimes it hasn't. Sometimes I've frozen, sometimes I've gone ape, sometimes I've run away, sometimes I've been pasted, and once, I even ran away and then ran back again!!! But the NEXT time... I hope there isn'T one!

You can train in the hopes that you don't freeze, which comes down to DS's point that you have to have confidence in your ****, JWT's 'real' knife drills and having your training partners go animal at you: pushing you, shoving you, shouting in your face, backing you against a wall, AND THEN trying to beat the crap out of you! All in fun of course!!!;)

In terms of technique, I think the best ones to train are a core of simple, hard techniques, especially short-range ones. When you have the confidence behind a punch or an elbow, train short-range sensitivity. IMO of course.

[JWTAYLOR]

See above.

JWT

[roughnready]

with this thought i set my mind in motion