In Memorium

[rogue]

In memorium (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&ncid=578&e=1&cid=578&u=/nm/20020529/ts_nm/attack_groundzero_dc_3) :(

Time to rebuild.

[guohuen]

I'm still griefstricken. I dread to think what will happen when the anger hits.

[red5angel]

Guohuen - It has already hit, but instead of attacking the problem we are attacking ourselves....

http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/05/28/attack.carnivore.reut/

[guohuen]

The FBI really needs to stick to what it does best. Like sabotaging Ness's investigation of the Lindberg kidnapping and keeping dangerous foreign nationals like John Lennon out of the country.

[red5angel]

The FBI probably does the best that it can. See this is one of the desired effects of Terrorist attacks. We start to fight each other, blaming the people and organizations in our borders and responsible for our safety. Of course it was the FBIs fault that some terrorist organization who makes daily threats on the US, finally decided to do something about it. Of course its thier fault that from teh hundreds of probably threats with evidence supporting them, they get everyday., they chose not to act on this one. Of course it has to be the FBI for everyone knows that although the FBI is an organization of human beings they are infallible. We should hold them responsible fo rthis attack, no Al Quaeda, or Muslim extremist. We should also blame the Past and present PResidents for not having the foresight to bombv the crap out of the Al Quaeda before they could launch an attack like this. Just like we should blame all those in charge when Hitler cam to power for not seeing what would happen and stopping it.

[rogue]

Sumation from New Yorker (http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?020603fa_FACT)

[DelicateSound]

However sad the incident was [and believe me we all felt it] it is time now for you Americans to move on. Kind of seems like a fitting time.

If not the terrorists have won. I personally would like to see a new WTC, twice as high.

Global terrorism is a disgusting facet of neo-humanity that deserves no emotion. Hatred is to good for them.

[red5angel]

DS - what do you mean by moving on? I do believe that we need to stop looking for fault within our borders and fix the system so it works better then it does. I do also believe that we should begin activley hunting those that would harm us or anyone else in this way. If you want a war then lets have a war, but if you want to actively attack civilians, then regardless of thier points of view we should strike them as fast and as hard as we can. I am not interested in a politically correct way of looking atthings. I understand that the israelis and plestinians have plenty of reasons in thier eyes to be killing each other. I also am pretty sure Bin Laden thinks he did something justified, but that is the difference between your average persona dn a psychotic. Psychotics dont understand and cant draw the line between what is right and wrong in a civilization. If you attack those who cannot really defend themselves and arent interested in general, in fighting a war with you, then you are a terrorist and you should be wiped out.
There has been plenty of argument about what is right and wrong, on this forum and beyond. Regardless of who you are and what you believe, you will almost guarenteed not consider an attack on your mother, your sister, your sons and your daughters, while they are going about thier daily lives, as acceptable. I will not try to vindicate or enable people who feel this sort of thing is ok, regardless of thier reasons, for the same reason vigilanteism isnt acceptable. when you have a problem you go to the police or the law.

[diego]

F.B.I.'s computer systems weren't compatible. Robert Chiradio, the special agent in charge, explained at a hearing that "we don't have the ability to put any scanning or multimedia" into F.B.I. computer systems. The photographs had "to be put on a CD-ROM and mailed to me."

This shatters all allusions to any similarities between the cia and james bond:(
I mean not one agent couldnt take 100 dollars out of his wallet and go buy a scanner used?:) ****

[JWTAYLOR]

Don't worry Delicate Sound, I'm really not that great of a guy. Fortunately, that means my hatred isn't too good for anyone.

yeah for me, yeah for US.


JWT

[ewallace]

I agree. It's time to move on. But never, never forget the way we felt that day.

[DelicateSound]

:D

The day you accept that you're just another cog in the machine, the day you stop giving a f*ck eh JWT.

I went through a BIG anger phase. On 9/11 I witnessed about 50 Asian taxi drivers driving around my local train station tooting their horns.

I smoked more weed than ever before, and was still in a foul mood.

In the end though, it's a waste of time. Either set up a militant army within the US that systematically eliminates suspected terrorists with EXTREME prejudice, or get on with life.

The war is for the Marines to fight. I have a friend in the RMC over at Baghram airbase. That man to me is a God.

And not a God that tells me to fly planes into buildings.

[rogue]

DS, moving on would be possible if this thing was really over. You Brits suffered more during the blitz of WWII as did most of Europe. But the war ended, most of the bad guys were rounded up and their war machine dismantled; moving on was possible. For us and the Afghans it's still not over, the bad guys are still there and gunning for us.

But, while it may not be over it is time to rebuild, time to be smarter, time to get our house in order and time to be more vigilant in regards to our enemies.

I fear that time has passed and people are putting this behind them like they did in '93. They've moved on to fighting about money and who is to blame, while our enemies plot on. Some of us though, will never forget that day and what it means.


It's a beautiful day and it's time to carry on.:)

[Black Jack]

Rogue,

Put perfectly sir.

[JWTAYLOR]

Make that two thumbs up Rouge.

JWT

[rogue]

Thanks guys.

[Ground Dragon]

Sitting here at work it's not that hard to imagine what went on back on 9/11, it was around the same time it is now (approx 9 a.m. est.)
I for one will never forget the way I felt that day, nor how I felt in the following days and weeks. Especially when I watched that documentary by the two brothers (anyone else see that?).
I just wish there was something I could have done, or something I could do now. I guess like a lot of people I felt helpless to a degree.
I just hope the pressure keeps up. I can't totally agree with the way things have been handled but I'm not sure I would have been able to do any better.
But I certainly don't agree with the way things were handled prior to 9/11 and those problems need to be fixed.

[Din Gao]

It is weird. I can see where it stood from my window and I didn't think it would bother me but it does. I used to work in the World Financial and my girlfriend is still across the street. With all the fireman around there today for the ceremony she is having flashbacks.

Thought "I got over it" or atleast past it but somewhere it is still there. When I go to my Master's class tonight there will be an empty seat to a coworker who won't be there because she was waiting for a bus that day.

[red5angel]

Well said Rogue, very eloquent and to the point, now we can only hope that our fearless leaders see it the same way you do.

[DelicateSound]

Make that 5 thumbs-up Rogue.

I guess I didn't think of it quite that way. Sorry :(

[yu shan]

I say we change some rules.

[rogue]

DS,
No need to say you're sorry, in a way you're right. We (the US) have to be careful not to get stuck in that hole where some buildings used to be, but at the same time we have remember the loss of life that the gap in the NYC skyline represents.

Americans, Brits and Europeans are always going to have a different take on the same events. Europeans will avoid a fight if at all possible no matter what the threat, I'm guessing after a couple of world wars being fought in their front yards (something we Yanks forget to factor in) they're willing to try something else besides fighting, like being Peace Keepers. Too bad someone has to usually make the peace by kicking some tail. And the two main someones are the US and UK.

The British took a pounding but didn't fall, you all still have that fighter attitude and are willing to go a few rounds with anyone. But you also know first hand what war does to your homes.

Here in America, we get real ticked off when trouble comes knocking on our front door. Outside of a family squabble about 150 years ago our land has been untouched by war except for two or three times since it's founding (Pearl Harbor, WTC I and WTCII). We're not used to seeing destruction in our cities, it's not in our experience. We've gotten so used to "going to war" it totally shocked us to have war come to us.

[scotty1]

The post immediately preceding mine is ****ing great Rogue.

BTW, I have found a website called Youth Of Islam. Non Muslims are not allowed to post on the main boards but there is a board put aside for non Muslims to post questions and discuss the whole situation at the moment.

The moderators are very delete-button happy though.

People on there are willing to answer questions honestly.

http://www.clearguidance.com/

Looking at that site has given me a different perspective on the whole thing, and I don't mean in a good way. Banging your head against a brick wall jumps to mind reading some of the posts there. I thought over-zealous Christians were bad...

I am not posting this to stir or cause trouble, it is a source of information for non muslims as well. I think this is on topic. it is not possible to cause trouble on that board (you will be deleted or banned quicker than you can type I think) but for a good discussion it should be interesting.

Someone on the OG posted it. A load of the guys from there have signed up but looking at some of their questions on the OG they are not going to get any meaningful dialogue going. `

[12345]

Originally posted by rogue
DS,
Americans, Brits and Europeans are always going to have a different take on the same events. Europeans will avoid a fight if at all possible no matter what the threat, I'm guessing after a couple of world wars being fought in their front yards (something we Yanks forget to factor in) they're willing to try something else besides fighting, like being Peace Keepers. Too bad someone has to usually make the peace by kicking some tail. And the two main someones are the US and UK.

The British took a pounding but didn't fall, you all still have that fighter attitude and are willing to go a few rounds with anyone. But you also know first hand what war does to your homes.
.

Don't forget that the Great War/WW1 was seen as the war to end all wars, and what happened - well within 30 years we'd done the whole thing again. I think I am right in saying the Soviet Union alone suffered 20million casualties in WW2. I also work with a guy whose mum was a German teenager in Berlin when it was liberated - her story shows that it was not only the Germans that could act like animals. Why am I saying this? Only to point out that the main thing should not be revenge but preventing conflict in the future. It may be that this requires military action - I've no problems with hunting down those that destroyed the wtc. However at the same time you've got to look at some of the less praiseworthy things both our countries do - we do contribute to conflicts through our foreign policies, arms sales etc - although I am proud to be British as you should be to be American I am not proud of everything we do.

[DelicateSound]

Rogue - nice post. I agree with all of that. I guess you guys were surprised about it. The whole world was shocked but I guess the real pain of it could only be felt by Americans.

My big view is that the world should move on but not forget. Obviously global terrorism should be stopped right now, but I really hope that the US doesn't change too much after this.

In 1997 and 1999 I travelled across the US and really loved every minute of it, the atmosphere and attitude of people was great. I have a friend who went to NYC after 11/9 and he says it's really changed in almost every respect.

I really hope that it's temporary, I wouldn't like to see that. :(

[Black Jack]

Some could argue that one a pow treatment scale the worst of the animal activity was done by the Japenese in WWII.

[NYerRoman]

Hey, I was there that day and I still haven't gotten over it. But we should have taken the opportunity to stop and reflect on how the world was run before and how we need to change it.

Unfortunately, we chose war and things will never change.

[rogue]

Here's what I want you to do Roman, go get a copy of "War and Our World" by John Keegan. It's a very short book but it should explain the facts of life to you better than Chomsky.

I am so close to totally blowing my temper by your last statement.
Why do you do Kung Fu? It can't be for self defense since if you're robbed it must be because of something you have done.

[red5angel]

There is an odd misconception out there. A movie, a very cheesy movie, that I enjoy says it best -

"My mother said that violence never solves anything."

"Is that right? I wonder what the Forefathers of Horishima would have said?"

Violence doesnt have to be the answer all the time but it can be the answer, and it can solve problems. Trust me on this. It would be a nice world to think that it didnt but it does, thats why we return to it so much.
On this subject, the only difference between a wise man and a barbarian is a wiseman knows when NOT to use it, but that it can be used.

[Black Jack]

Rogue,

Come on, you must be used to that kind of neuterspeak by now.

Maybe women who are raped should ask themselves what did they do to deserve that kind of treatment.:rolleyes:

[ewallace]

I don't want to start another thread with this.
http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/05/31/keinan.cnna/index.html

This really gets my blood flowing.

[fa_jing]

I was moved by that one, too, ewallace.

[rogue]

My first time reading that, very moving. What really burns me is that the Palestinians have a gov'nt in place, a stage to air their grievences and they still resort to this. While I'm very pro-Isreal I'm not real fond of the Isreali settlements in the Palestinian lands, but there has to be a better solution than blowing up kids and old people.

[NYerRoman]

Rogue,
You really need to not include ideas that I would have ever said the US DESERVED it. You are being simplistic and led by sentiments that obscure the BIG *ucking picture pal.

There is a world here that is not doing well. There are people who are suffering. Another war, whether you are aware of its causes...do you know? Do you know the history of the region, US foreign policy, the developement of Central Asia, who is Osama, the Saudis role, the US diplomatic efforts in the 90s, etc.?

Now, there are causes. NO ONE DESERVES to die. And black jack, You piece of s h i t. To even state that I would say a women who is raped deserves it.....

You know where you can go. The war is not helping the world. I won't even respond to anything else. You do not deserve my energy.