Non-Scientific Poll: What is Chi?

[Fu-Pow]

We hear a lot about Chi in the Chinese Martial arts. I've heard all kinds of explanations. I'm curious what the majority of people on this forum think it is?

[Xebsball]

Its Bioelctrical and you need proper Mechanics to use it at its best.

[fa_jing]

Bio-electromagnetic, but perhaps bio-chemical as well. Since there are said to be different kinds of Chi...

Also, Chi can be just air inside your body.

-FJ

[Fu-Pow]

Great post Wujidude....is there a site that I could print this out from?

[Liokault]

Chi is non existant.


Some chinese guy 700 (plus)years ago with no acess to modern medical/biological ideas put together a theory on what we today know as our cardio vascular system. He had no idea why blood flowed though our systems,why we breath,how energy gets to our muscles or why it really is good to ejaculate regularly.


Any one who atributes anything in their training to Chi is a fraud or is being badly misled.

[joedoe]

Can I borrow your blinkers when you are done with them? :rolleyes:

[Lice]

Liokault,

At least you're open-minded about it. :p

[Repulsive Monkey]

Whats the chances of you being a student of Dan Docherty eh???

[dezhen2001]

david

[HongKongPhooey]

Chi is ..... well .... chi.

What else do you wana know. Stop trying to explain it, just do it.

[Liokault]

Whats the chances of you being a student of Dan Docherty eh???

Funny that you ask that.


Anyway at least I git a reasonable reception this time I put this idea forward. Last time I wrote somthing similar to this all I got back was "Oxford is gay"


And why is every one so against this idea? Do any of you have any proof of chi? Can you show me your chi? Can you explain it? Are any of you about to go and claim that standing prize for the first guy to prove chi is real?

I think not.

To sum up I do belive in chi....but I belive it to be what a bioligist would call our cardiovascular system.

[Repulsive Monkey]

Oxford is a great place by the way.

I respect your opinion, as I hope you will respect mine too when I say that Qi is definitely not the cardisvascular system. Qi in its systemic form would be that which underlies and powers the cardisvascular system.

I'm not gonna turn around and say you're wrong and I'm right cause I can't prove I'm right anymore than you can prove me wrong in my beliefs. Casting aspursions around about right and wrong are a dangerous thing to do. If you can prove the absolute nonexistence of Qi, then I and others would like to see, hear and learn this knowledge from you.

Go on admit it it Liokault, you do learn practical/Wudang Tai Chi don't you?

[black and blue]

You put forward an impossibility.

How can anyone 'prove' Chi/Qi 'doesn't' exist??? :rolleyes:

I can't prove that aliens haven't landed on the planet and spoken to our Prime Minister. The onus of proof is always on the positive.

In Kung Fu it must be 'proved' Chi/Qi 'does' exist. In Wing Chun, as in so many martial arts, there seems to be a constant lineage war. Namely, who studied with whom and what were they taught (personally, I couldn't care less on this particular issue).

However, that said, if someone makes a claim, they must back it up with proof. Would you train with someone who claimed to be taught by a Grandmaster, and claimed to have exclusive knowledge, if they couldn't back up their claims? Would you let a stranger claiming to be from the police/gas company etc, into your home if they couldn't prove their affiliation with a said company, organisation?

Biomechanical/biochemical/straight mechanical - I have no problem with any of these in principle/theory, but for me to accept it as absolute I'd prefer someone offer me evidence.

Any of the three elements I mention should be able to be proved. Energy is energy - it can be measured. Mechanics and alignment can be seen to produce powerful structures.

I guess all I'm saying is this... "People speak of Chi/Qi but offer no proof. I'd love to see some. They say Elvis is alive and well. Well, I'll believe it when I see it - and I'd really love to see it, a-huh-huh."

Duncan

[count]

Interesting read wujidude.

[black and blue]

Heat warms the body. Heat derived from energy, usually from food and sugars derived from those (also wool jumpers help). One of the hottest parts of the body is the skin just below the scrotum.

Are my balls my Chi? :) Hmmm... maybe. If I sat on someone's face and suffocated them with my scrotum, I would have used my chi to kill them!

I concede the point. ;) Chi is balls and 50 per cent of us have them. :p

Seems to me whenever we use muscular movement we're using energy for muscle contraction. Is this Chi? If so we're talking about biomechanical and biochemical energies. Can this energy be amplified using an internal art?

I don't know. Show me it and prove how it's done and I'll join a Tai Chi class to supplement my Wing Chun. (Actually, I'm toying with this idea purely because of an interest in Push Hands).

We're (Wing Chunners) able to generate very powerful short range energy. This output is down to mechanics, relaxation, and timing - all combined with necessary muscular motions used to push forward the palm, fist or fingers (used, it seems to me, in bursts of energy).

[guohuen]

Great post Wujidude. When I first read the thread title I said to myself that I could come up with a reasonable explanation. Then I read Brian Kennedy's and said why bother? The only thing I understand a little differently is what he is calling biomechanical chi I understand as being martial jing. I understand it to be the combination of bioelectric chi as described to the proper alignment as described with intent.

[Repulsive Monkey]

From a chinese medicine point of view I feel that you've got some anatomical anomalies in what you have said black and blue.
The skin just behind the Scrotum is the perinieum and has in its residency the point Huiyin (Ren 1) which is classically known as one of the coldest points in the body as its opposite Bahui (Du 20) is at the headtop where the fontanelle's join at the crown. It is Bahui which is classically referred to as the hottest point on the body as its translation is a meeting of a hundred Yangs. Huiyin is a meeting point for Yin energy and is also the lower point in the micro cosmic orbit in the body whcih kind of qualifies it again for that function.

From a wetsern point of view of course for the testes to work to their optimum the scrotum is not housed inside the body cavity but hangs down outside thus to opretae at a lower than body tempreature rate. Too much heat kills off the sperm so that area of the scrotum and perinieum from a western medical point of view too, is seen as an area in the body where there is less heat, and therefore a colder region of the body.

Just thought I'd mention both stand points.

[count]

Interesting, you are on the right path but you are missing the point. I agree with most of what you posted. Explain to me how energy is converted from food and what creates bio-mechanical or bio-electrical impulses that cause the muscle contractions and expansions. Seems to me that my body is warm hours, even days after eating, yet the body gets cold minutes after death.

[black and blue]

:mad: You repulse me with your knowledge of the human body!

On positioning of body heat I stand corrected - it's just my sperm always feels so warm. :)

In essense, my ill-argued logic is of non-specific body location. The armpits are pretty warm. Use this instead of scrotum (This line of thought simply came from a friend who once spoke, in non-crude terms, about heat 'down there').

So are we saying Chi/Qi is all about body mechanics and biochemical reactions? Has anyone here experienced the "Old master touched me and I flew across the room and woofed-up" thing?

[black and blue]

Hi -

The dead cool quicker because there is no heart beat to pump blood - which also warms. Hence poor cirulation leading to cold limbs for example.

Don't ask me how the heart starts to beat (ie, the first beat) - I don't know. :)

How is food converted to energy? Err... **** I'm stupid.

What interests me is Chi/Qi used in MA.

1)Is it's effect higher level than the mechanics I use in Wing Chun?

2) Can it's power be tapped to negate my mechanics?

3) Can it be measured? (ie. Can we prove it)

[count]

Ha ha, you anticipated my next question.:D Actually these things are explained according to Chinese medicine and martial arts as "chi". Chi is used in martial arts to both protect and heal the body! As far as this touch you described, this has nothing to do with chi or martial arts. I have been touched/hit by some impressive "old masters" with deep understanding of chi bit they would be the first to tell you these things you are thinking of are showmenship and not martial ability.

[black and blue]

So if we discount the much-cited stories of 'one touch blasts you two miles down the road', what is the application of the chi you speak about in your MA.

It sounds as though you are talking about life force. This, and I have to concede a point again (D.amn, that's twice in one thread) :), is something science can't 'yet' explain. (ie. the origin of life/conception of life).

Internal arts speak about 'using' chi and as a result, are cited as being high level combat systems. So how do you use it, is it biomechanical, what benefits does it bring? How can we say any of this if we can't quantify it?

If we are speaking about biomechanical energy - could I argue my Wing Chun is internal? (I ask this because I was once told this is not the case because WC doesn't use the spine and waist to generate power - how is this connected to life energy?)

I fear an answer to this last question will involve talk about energy settling in the Tan Tien (again, something no one can prove)

Thanks to those with the patience to answer my questions :)

[black and blue]

Cheng Tin-Hung and Dan Docherty say:

"Internal Strength is the most important part of the art of Tai Chi Chuan, as well as being the most mysterious and least understood. When faced with more than one opponent, even if our defence is good, we must expect to take some punishment. If our body is weak we may sustain severe injuries, while our own blows are too week to have any effect. This means that before we can be good fighters we need to develop a strong physique.

"The Internal Strength regulates breathing and improves blood circulation. Practice loosens and relaxes the joints, making our movements more fluid, which in turn leads to quicker reactions and greater speed in attack and defence. Our sense of balance will also improve with practice."

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Okay... so are we talking about loose and relax joints, fluid movement and improved balance and senses? This, to me, could apply to Wing Chun.

However, should I assume internal strength is NOT Chi/Qi?

This topic is clearly complex

:(

[Repulsive Monkey]

The truth is is that in Taiji (and not just exclusively in it) one can be pushed half way down the road by a single small push. My master does it to me on every Tuesday night class and I careen off of bystander students and usually crash into the wall. This is not done passively but with all my strength to oppose his actions. It is possible and it happens.
As the chinese say "No Hit, No Learn". Meaning that you need to experience before you can say you understand something or count for its voracity.

This is totally opinionated but I do not consider Dan Docherty to be a good example of Internal arts, and therefore view what he says with extra care.

[black and blue]

Sounds interesting. I WANT to experience it, that's the point. I then want someone to explain HOW it was done.


So, how does your Sifu explain what he does?

What questions do you pose when he gives an answer?

Ta,

Duncan

[Repulsive Monkey]

It has gone something like this in the past:

I root myself as best as possible even take a low stance to further root myself. My teacher place a single hand both or a press position on my shoulder, I start to feel that my root is being severed and that I can no longer oot myself. Then the nest thing I know I experience the equivalent of being hit by a car ( by the way I've experienced that before, but not by choice) really fast and Im uprooted and cannot find my feet. I usually bounce back about 20 foot and either hit a wall or get caught by another senior student.
He once stood in a statioary ward off position and barely moved at all and issued a force which threw me back about 5 or 6 foot. I remember this as I landed on my mates toe and crushed it by accident.

[black and blue]

But how does he/she explain to you what is happening?

What is his/her explanation? There must be one for you to attain the same results, yes?

You must question whatever it is you're told - how do they break down the notion of chi in explanation?

[Repulsive Monkey]

Here is what he said.
He would use Ting Jin (listening energy) and then allow my tension to pour into his body via yielding to my rooted and tense posture thus creating a void or vacuum which would constitute the severing of the root. At the right moment when I would try to compensate for it he would allow his force to suddenly appear and rush into my posture from the feet up and thus up root and forwardly propelling me.
I ability to do this is not to the refined level of that of my teacher but all the same I have leanrt to do it too.
It is the basic rules of listening whilst sticking, yielding , following and issuing. And all this depends upon....yes you've guessed it....QI and its manipulation.

[The Willow Sword]

for me CHI is the combination of all the choices given in the Poll.

we share a symbient connection with everything. the way you "Connect" is determined by your thought process.

Chi is the vehicle through which we connect to mind body and spirit. it can be simply said that Chi is the energy generated in our body. alot of the concepts of chi border on the mystical anyway so i believe that in alot of ways chi can be explanation of the workings of the spirit. But also the workings of the body and the mind.

i try not to include these chi concepts to fighting for this is a waste of valued energy, and plus we are not Tekken fighters and cannot channel the big ball of chi out of our hands:rolleyes:

Many Respects,, The Willow Sword

[Repulsive Monkey]

you are right we are not Tekken fighters but you are slightly wrong in the capacity for generated energy that can be issued out of the hands bit. If you have experienced anything similar to what I explaned above by your master you will know just how much power can be generated at the hands.

[JWTAYLOR]

He probably just mentions something about "fa jing", and leaves it at that if he's like most TTC instructors.

I would have never believed such feats are possible if I haven't seen it myself.

I don't buy into the dim mak argument, or even the pressure point knockout stuff since everyone who has tried it on my has failed.

I don't buy into chi as anything other than breath, timing, and propper body alignment. I have yet to find anything that would refute that.

BUT, I do buy that with those skills, a human being can generate "inhuman" force.

For example, I've seen Shifu Paul Hwang, who teaches Chang Style Tai Chi Chuan here in Austin, do some simply phenonomal board breaking. Such as, he lines 5 1X4s stacked right up against each up agaist a cinder block wall. He places his palm directly on the boards, fingers spread out, all of his palm and fingers touching the first board. Then he makes an almost imperceptable motion, WITHOUT pulling back his hand at all, and all of the boards shatter. And I mean shatter. I've even seen him do this with a 2/4. I've seen him do that with 5 "rebreakable" boards over and over and over again, never breaking a sweat. The guy is around 60, and I'd put him at around a 125lbs soaking wet. I've pushed hands with him allot and when he finds an opening you bet your sweet bippy your going to soar.

JWT

[Merryprankster]

If JWT says he's seen it, that's good enough for me.

I agree with his WHY as well, but I'm sure that's not surprising :)

[Repulsive Monkey]

I always watching that demo of Yang Taiji stylist William C.C. Chen from a couple of years ago. He's gotta be approaching 70 soon I reckon. Anyway he breaksan inch stcik piece of wood from a distance of about a foot away without any initial pullback. Of course the best thing is is that he holds an egg inside his fist whilst he does it, and cracks the egg open afterwards to let people know it was real. Classic bit of footage.

[The Willow Sword]

i know of what you speak and i myself have felt the energy emanating out of my hands. and i have been able to put out a candle flame at 2ft away and i have had boards and concrete broke over me with no damage. i fully acknowledge the capacity of power that chi has and our ability to manipulate it.
i just make a reference to the street fighter and tekken games where you can shoot out a big ball of evil chi and decimate your opponent at 10 yds away. heh heh. man i used to wish i had that ability when i was a kid ,,getting bullied around alot for i was a little red headed runt:p .

Many Respects,,The Willow Sword

[Repulsive Monkey]

ok have to admit that I dont own a games console of any sort hence me taking your comment too literally.

[Ky-Fi]

The way I see it, the concept of "chi" in martial arts is just a different framework for understanding how the body functions, and how to train. When people say it's just 'body mechanics", well, that is simply another paradigm that can be used to explain physical processes. Whenever people mention "simple body mechanics" as a means to refute the concept of "chi", though, they always leave out one factor that I feel is quite important---mental focus. Would anyone here deny that mental focus has a HUGE impact on the power of techniques? "Body mechanics" doesn't cover that---but with the CMA framework, "the mind leads the chi" is one of the most basic and important concepts, as is the idea that chi flows best through relaxed muscles, and that qi is always paired with some degree of muscular strength.

So, the way I understand it, it's not like chi is some mysterious energy that only CMA people are using----instead it's just a different paradigm of training, explaining and understanding the way the body works.

[fa_jing]

I can create mysterious energy in my body. It manifests itself as a vibration that start to occur around the Dan Tien area. I discovered this doing Yoga. For those that believe in Chi, they might say I had collected Chi into my Dan Tien until it was overflowing. Those who don't believe in Chi, might say that it is a mechanical effect caused by my subconcious mind.

There really is no difference, because both explanations are vague. What is, is what is. The effect is real.

Personally, I think Chi is a concept that is useful in describing a variety of phenomena. Perhaps it is over-applied. If you don't like this word, talk around it.

I don't know much about martial application of internal energies. I look at Wing Chun as an external style that yields.

-FJ

[JWTAYLOR]

Oh, and I just want to clarify what I meant by "inhuman" force.

I'm only talking about force applied through CONTACT.

I fight by the simple axim that you can not control with contact. And every split second that I am not making contact with my opponent is a second that I have lost control of that opponent. I'm not saying that if I have contact, I have control, I'm just saying with no contact comes no control.

In other words, I still can't buy the "empty force" stuff. But hey, maybe one day someone will prove me wrong.

JWT

[Gabriel]

Proof Schmoof

Explain Smescplain

Why do people need to be able to explain and analyze everything, down to the last rotten rock on this earth? Just let it be.

RM - Remind me never to mess around with your teacher...

My sigung did a similar thing, although in reverse. He got himself in a low horse, and rooted himself. Then he challenged the entire class to try to uproot him. The man could not be moved an inch, and all of us were pushing/tugging him. I imagine he can propel people pretty far too, with such a strong root and what not, but wasn't your teacher worried he would hurt you RM?

Gabriel

[Gabriel]

Oh..and there are no balls of energy thrown in Tekken..thats street fighter and mortal kombat..Tekken is actually more based on real mechanics than alot of the other games. Except for Baek and Hourang, they are pure cheese. :D

I have very big chi in Tekken.. :cool:

I challenge any and all of you to a Tekken tournament!!

Gabriel

[Liokault]

Repulsive Monkey



This is totally opinionated but I do not consider Dan Docherty to be a good example of Internal arts, and therefore view what he says with extra care.


But Can your teacher fight? Can he produce students who can fight? Can he get though a whole class with out saying "and in 10 years when your chi is fully developed you will be un beatable"?


Go on your a half arse'd yang stylist are you not?

I do not agree with every thing Dan says but then I do not have to. I do consider him THE best source on knowlage on Tai Chi in the UK.

[The Willow Sword]

HMMM Tekken tourney huh? i would do it but i am now a slave to the Xbox and final fight 3 precedes that game, i am the hsingi guy in that game and he rocks(IF you know how to use him)

Many Respects, The Willow Sword

[joedoe]

I think it is a futile exercise trying to explain chi in terms of western scientific models. The concept is based on a completely different thought paradigm. It is like trying to describe an orange in terms of a person's experience of apples. Until you have experienced it yourself, there is no way to explain it.

[prana]

An unusual response from me... lol wrath ?? :D



Repulsive Monkey

But Can your teacher fight? Can he produce students who can fight? Can he get though a whole class with out saying "and in 10 years when your chi is fully developed you will be un beatable"?


Go on your a half arse'd yang stylist are you not?

I do not agree with every thing Dan says but then I do not have to. I do consider him THE best source on knowlage on Tai Chi in the UK.

I needed to quote the almighty Chris McKinley here.
Bla Bla Bla my sifu bla bla bla your sifu

Seems in your mind one who has developed in qi must be a good fighter. With this logic in mind, its like saying one who is proficient in logic of NAND-GATES must excel in single handedly building multiple UHF repeater stations. Oh and he is the best physicist in the world. Ludicrous :mad: I don't care if your teacher can train a million ants to carry your corpse, I'll give you credit if you master can train an ant to not be crushed from that foot that's about to stomp on it.

Seems like Oxford has succesfully filled up your cup with mud, and there is no room for clean water left.

It is so clear why Wongsifu left this board, seriously, what a lost for us cause people like you droop down to the attitude of bla bla bla my sifu bla bla bla your sifu.

I am not really angry, but I hope I come across so hehehe :D

[Volcano Admim]

Hello you think i am new here but i have ALWAYS been watching, observing, feeling.

This thread ****es me off, this thread angrys me.

[joedoe]

Share how you feel VA. Why is it making you angrys?

[Volcano Admim]

Well young one you seem to have a attention disorder, since everyone else seems to understand that whatever ****es the volcano off is not a good thing.

[prana]

you spelled Volano wrong :D :p

[Volcano Admim]

Well good spirited one you seem to understand what the true value of volcano but you makes mistakes when you say that someone from my academic caliber would misspell my own identity.

[prana]

ohs I is not worthies. Please forgivens me.

Volcanos its is.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by Volcano Admim
Well young one you seem to have a attention disorder, since everyone else seems to understand that whatever ****es the volcano off is not a good thing.

No, I have no attention disorder Mr Hothead, you do. I did not say that p!ssing a volcano off was a good thing, I asked you what is making you angry about the thread.

So are you going to answer me or are you going to misread my post again?

[Volcano Admim]

Well young one with eye problem that keeps you from reading me good, you look not smart enoug unlike the other boy i speak to on this thread, you do not understand so simple if the volcano is wrathy bad things make him split lava.

[joedoe]

You should wank less :D

[dezhen2001]

Prana: you *almost* sounded angry for a minute there :cool:
edit: forgot to say before - ask Tae about her WRX!! :D

Joedoe: How is everything? Must be hard to work with an attention span AND eye disorder :p:)

man i wish i was online last nite, i could have had words with mr. Volcano about why he keeps spitting me out of the chatroom :mad:

I really just can't understand WHY people have to try and understand Qi and CMA theory through a Western science point of view??? Heck western Science also has it's own terminology that you have to learn to understand before any of it makes sense! :D

Why can't TCM and theory be accepted as another VALID form of science? Science is science: things are observed and experienced, then 'conclusions' (though nothing is final) and theories are drawn from it... Both work well with what they do, so that's a good thing!

david

[Liokault]

Prana

As much as i do not like to do the my sifu blah blah your sifu blah ect the fact remains that Repulsive Monkey has insulted my teachers teacher for no other reason than that Dan Docherty has in the past stated that chi is wrong, Has receved challanges from many other stylists (yang springs to mind mostly) and won easly against them but mostly as he teaches the WHOLE art of tai chi unlike almost every other teacher in the UK.

You in america proberbly do not understand just how poor most tai chi in the uk is. They have forgotten most of the origional art and what they have left they do badly. Most of the gaps tend to be filled with nonsense about chi ect.

Sadly the worst offenders are yang stylists and in no way can they be considerd martial artists.

I belive that in the USA from what I have read on this forum that the situation is not as bad as over here.

[scotty1]

Volcano Admim - what are you on? If you haven't got anything constructive to say, then stay quiet. Reading your posts makes my head hurt.

Liokault - mate are you saying that all Yang stylists in the UK are not martial artists?

LOL, I don't know what qi is. From that article I'd say it was 1 and 2. I just don't know, I think its a mix of things. But I'd lean towards a less esoteric point of view, definitely.

A lot of people say that they've felt this force, and use it, so i'm just going to keep doing my Zhan Zhuang every day and see what happens.

[Liokault]

Yes scotty 1 I am indeed saying that yang stylists in the UK are not martial artists.

I have met lots of yang stylists and non can be called martial artists. Most (like 90 percent) would not even consider them selfs to be martial artists.

I should point out that I come into contact with yang stylists on a regular basis and that my own teacher started to learn yang style before he came to wudang but didnt stay as they clearly did not know what they were talking about.

[stoli]

Would have to agree with Liokault on this one. I'm no Tai Chi expert but did do some in the US a year or two ago whilst travelling there and it was far, far superior to almost everything you see in the UK.

In fact, lets face it, most of the Tai Chi guys here are tree hugging hippies trying to scr*w as many hippie chicks as they can get in their class !!!!:D

[scotty1]

When you say that Liokault you are saying that Yang stylists have no martial application right?

[Liokault]

Im not saying that they know no martial applications in their own minds ...they may indeed know several.

BUT they tend to be vauge, poorly trained and mostly ignored. Like just knowing a move from the form and being shown it once a month is enough.

[Repulsive Monkey]

Dan Docherty in no way teaches the whole art of Taiji, this much is so clear. How many other teachers have you studied with?
There are defintely a number of teachers in the UK who so out weigh Dan.
I will not dispute the fact that Dan is a very good Kung-Fu practioner but an internalist his obviously is not.

I have seen and read about Dan's views and he is a very good fighter (again this I do not dispute) but what about people like Nigel Sutton, Master John Ding and of course Master John Kells.
In my mind these are the people who quite clearly teach the whole art of Taiji.

Dan Docherty is supposedly meant to teach the whole art (which he does not) so why does he have such great disdain for Yang, Wu, and some Chen masters? He claims his Taiji is a direct descedancy from Chand San Feng this is the reason why he terms is school as Wudang Taiji, and takes every opportunity to slight all other styles of Taiji.
I feel he teaches hatred more than acceptance to be honest.

[Liokault]

Dan just tells it like it is.

As I have met many students of Nigel Sutton (and Nigel him self) I can say in not impressed.

And what is Dan not teaching in his tai chi? As far as i can see he teacher every thing (minus the semi religiouse clap trap that you are so into) that makes up tai chi and i am sure he teacher much more than you have learnt.

[Repulsive Monkey]

Here is where I decide that this is a good a point as any to leave this thread as I'm sure that you have totally showed your school up to be the joke that it is with your presumptuous comments like that.
I have made my comments upon my experiences with Dan , what have you based your experiences upon? Have you met my teacher? I know my teachers faults but how on earth do you know them? This would be interesting to hear?

Liokault to save your own face I feel it would be good and proper to finnish this unbalanced slanging match right now. This is getting both of us, and everyone else on here who reads are repsonses absolutely no where. There is nothing positive or contructive in these posts. And so I bow out, and hopefully take the fuel for fire with me.

[prana]

Originally posted by Liokault
As far as i can see he teacher every thing (minus the semi religiouse clap trap that you are so into) that makes up tai chi and i am sure he teacher much more than you have learnt.
Liokault,

You have no believe in qi. Why do you practise Tai Qi ?

You mistake thinking I am in NA. I was raised in Malaysia and live in Sydney.

[Liokault]

I practice Tai Chi dispite my lack of confidance in Chi because it is a very viable system that works very well for me. At least Tai Chi as taught under the wudang banner by Dan Docherty is a viable system and i fully expect that any ( of the few ) remaining whole systems of tai chi what ever the style to be very efficient martial arts.


I also practice Chi Gung exercises as much as that may suprise many people here and and even demonstraight my abilitys!!!!

[Kumkuat]

prana, tai chi is not tai qi in pin yin; it's tai ji. Anyway, here is my opinion on the taiji teacher trends that I've noticed.

1. teacher can't fight nor have any time of internal energy, peng jing, or whatever you call it. All their movements are based on external coreography. There are you typical hippies. No one in this board like these except to join their class and get hippie chicks.

2. teachers who can fight but don' t use peng jing. Lots of people like that it seems like. They say they do the real deal because they know the applications and can fight. But they do this externally. So it's not really taiji.

3. teachers that can't fight but has internal energy or pengjing.

4. teachers that can fight and has internal energy.

Which one is your teacher? I believe there are very very few #4's. Since there are very few #4's, I rather have #3 rather than #2 since #2's don't teach taiji, they teach some external parody of it. Sure they can probably fight well, but it's not real taiji.

Anyway, to be on topic, I believe qi is just a metaphore for certain things. A paradigm to help learn a form or whatever. As for the moment, I don't believe it exists unless you count the literal translation, which is, "air." Of course, I would like to be proven wrong, but acendotal evidence won't do.

[Cody]

I think Chi is a catch-all term to cover the energies which manifest in the physical realm. That includes both mechanical and bio-electrical. To define it, one would have to know the origin, or at least be close, in my view. As that is not possible for me, it is also not possible to truly define Chi, but I can observe its effects to a crude degree. Life is energy; electrons playing tag is energy. About as far as I can go.

I think that Chi can combine with an undefined spiritual component (again, undefined) which can yield immense, relatively controlled power. That, I believe is the wonderful alchemy. I personally think that some of what is ascribed solely to chi power is due to that specific combination. The key is possibly in the brain somehow. Physical development is needed to use this combined energy in a relatively safe manner in a martial setting. I believe that breathing, focussing and stance work combined, provide the basis. The potential is part of the human legacy.

Training is necessary to relatively master this essence of the martial arts. And, if one has not attained adequate self-mastery (being the best one can be in heart and mind, according to what one Is) along the way, the work is seriously flawed, as impressive as it might look.

I wish I knew more.

Cody

[Mr Punch]

'Faith can move mountains' but no-one's ever seen it happen. I don't believe in any spiritual component.

As Gabriel says, I don't think we need absolute proof of some things either, but some of the claims attributed to ki are outrageous in the same way as some external stylists leaping 11 storeys off a building for a flying kick!

I think mechanical energy sums it up. As JWT says, there's no effect without contact. That doesn't mean that I don't believe that good mechanical alignment has no effect on your bio-electrical energy, but I am saying that I haven't seen any evidence for a bio-electrical energy strong enough to have an effect on someone else's mechanical structure or someone else's energy.

BTW: The poll is skewed! :eek: I couldn't vote for bio-electrical and mechanical energy, only for one or the other or 'Other'!

[Mr Punch]

And Cody: I do agree "I wish I knew more"!

[Fu-Pow]

Great discussion guys. Cool to see all the different ideas out there.

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by Cody
I think Chi is a catch-all term to cover the energies which manifest in the physical realm. That includes both mechanical and bio-electrical. To define it, one would have to know the origin, or at least be close, in my view. As that is not possible for me, it is also not possible to truly define Chi, but I can observe its effects to a crude degree. Life is energy; electrons playing tag is energy. About as far as I can go.

I think that Chi can combine with an undefined spiritual component (again, undefined) which can yield immense, relatively controlled power. That, I believe is the wonderful alchemy. I personally think that some of what is ascribed solely to chi power is due to that specific combination. The key is possibly in the brain somehow. Physical development is needed to use this combined energy in a relatively safe manner in a martial setting. I believe that breathing, focussing and stance work combined, provide the basis. The potential is part of the human legacy.

Training is necessary to relatively master this essence of the martial arts. And, if one has not attained adequate self-mastery (being the best one can be in heart and mind, according to what one Is) along the way, the work is seriously flawed, as impressive as it might look.

I wish I knew more.

Cody

I generally agree with this statement.

Chi is not just bio.

When reached different level, many will be changed, like how you percieving, valuing, thinking, etc.

The most important about Chi, I would say is feel it, not know it. Although knowing it is important, but feel it is what really make it works. Many people can know it much more form words, but can't really demo a little bit of any thing he knows. Some people can do it, but if you ask them to explain it, they may not able to.

Many TCMA will correct the postures and moves by contects in certain way, it is not just the "where is your arms or legs" issue matters. If the master is high level, the feel of how the contects are is very important as how the Chi and Jin was used.

[Cody]

Some thoughts that come to mind:

I agree that changes do take place, not all of them on the conscious level.
Sometimes I have wondered if part of the training. especially with postures or visualizations which involve animal imagery, can serve to make a voluntary, practical increased closeness or overlap between the conscious mind and that which is "beneath," even that which has no words. Hence, part of the difficulty in explaining. The process, in this context, is hard to explain because I would suggest that it is largely nonverbal.

What emerges is a recipe of sorts for breathing and body alignment, proceeding with the help of an adept to assist students, in an ethical manner, to move energy within their bodies, and become aware of the turbine (lower dan tien). To feel, look, and Be connected in a special way. Yes.
Some people can show results some of the time, not necessarily on demand; that merely shows incomplete training, not necessarily that there's nothing there to speak of.

While there are changes in how one perceives, it is, imo, questionable that the training and mastery would affect thinking and valuing except to bring about what one truly is, self-actualization to a higher degree, but not necessarily qualitatively different than one was to begin with (by valuing, you are referring to one's standards, including judgments of one's own and other's behavior? not sure. thought I'd ask, rather than assume.) To continue and explain:
Increased perception could bring up questions which might not have occurred, and cause them to be thought about/evaluated differently. But, the way one is, and what is shown in thinking and valuing, I believe, can be a separate matter, which need not necessarily develop beyond much further than the base there was in a particular human being to begin with. I guess a good example would be that a power hungry person can study, and not Necessarily be changed by the study or by accomplishment in energy cultivation.

It is via experience, feeling, and even seeking not to feel but to Be, that one's own energy cultivation and projection is explored, the way I see it. The "knowing" or the "definition" is secondary to this. Yes? I think we are saying this together. I'm glad.

enjoyed reading and answering your post.

Cody

[Fu-Pow]

So to summarize the results of this poll it seems that there is a split between those people who think of chi as being purely bioelectrical energy and those that see it as being something else.

My working opinion is that Chi is not really bioelectrical energy. This is a western paradigm. I'm thinking that Chi as it relates to MA's is for lack of a better term "body feel." It is a awareness of sensations that develops when you are moving your body in the most efficient way possible. This sensations you may feel will manifest themselves in the form of tingling, heat, heaviness, transparency, etc.

Internal arts differ from external in that they seek to establish this "body feel" first, then concentrate on techniques secondly. Standing meditation is the single most important training tool to establish "awareness" or "feeling" of the body.

The sensations that I mentioned above serve as a feedback loop so that the student begins to "feel" when a movement is correct and seeks to increase a sensation by adjusting the movment. Eventually all movement becomes extremely efficient and the awareness of the body becomes very high and sensitivity is increased.

Physiologically the most efficient way of moving the body is to use the largest muscle groups of the body in unison. For example it is more preferable to use the back muscles than the shoulder because these muscles are much larger and stronger. The joints of the bodies become pivot points for the muscles to move around.

In addition, efficiency means aligning the bones of the body with gravity so that the muscles are doing the least amount of work to support the structure and are simply "holding" the bones in place.

Also, any discussion of efficiency would be incomplete without talking about the natural elasticity of the bodies tendons and ligaments and muscles . This energy must also come into play to create the most efficiency.

All these aspects combine to create the sensations of "Chi" in the body.

Thanks for the great discussion and contribution from members of this forum.

These discussions really help my understanding.

[prana]

questionable that the training and mastery would affect thinking and valuing except to bring about what one truly is, self-actualization to a higher degree, but not necessarily qualitatively different than one was to begin with (by valuing, you are referring to one's standards, including judgments of one's own and other's behavior? not sure. thought I'd ask, rather than assume.) To continue and explain:

Sure it's like this. When you realise Qi and you realise that talking is a waste of qi, then you tend not to blabber so much.

Or when you realise that your body is like a plastic shell, and that you are indeed a seperate entity, like water that overfills a bottle, then you begin to understand why people act/react they way they do.

And you begin to become slightly less fearful of death, and that you die, you actually are afraid of pain, miss your own body vessel, your loved ones and your money. Then you can work your way to make your life a more fulfilling experience.

And to realise that trying to explain qi with words is kinda crazy, and that you need to sit down and just calm the mind and cultivate peace and awareness.

And that qi, though affected by your postures, is not a mechanical energy as stated as an option above but influenced by your qi.

Of course it affects but you need to have felt it before you can understand what I mean, to you all right now, I am just a singing mumbo-jumbo but I am dam well sure, at least a few of you here understand exactly what I mean.

[PaulLin]

Please excuse my English if it is not very clear. I was thinking of valuing as how people would think of what is good, what is bad, what is better and what is worse, etc. When one reaching a new level in Qi, some thing he/she thinks it is important may be meaningless and some things was ignored may becomes the reason to live.

Qi has spiritial aspects, as well as the physical, chemical, and emotional aspects.

Down to the basic human use, Qi can mantain health, further, it can be used to applied externally.

It was constantly improved by against the nature's rules(Tao) and be with the Tao. When against the Tao, one learns more knowledge in Qi. When be with Tao, one will collect more supplies. A good Qi practicer will plan this balancely, like walking, so you wouldn't forward one side too far and got split on the floor rather than walking forward.

I agree VERY that Qi is non-verbal. Just like what I am writing now, if you understand what I am saying, it is not because of the words, it is because you have the link between your soul and the Tao. Words are only symblos that remind people to pick out what they have already known in certain patterns and combinations.

The bottom line is no Qi, no live, better Qi, better live.

[Cody]

Whoa, prana. My efforts just above were geared simply to make sure I was understanding what PaulLin meant to say, and talk to him. In a slightly earlier post within this thread is my short opinion, which was not blabbering, just an opinion based on my limited experience. That can change over time. I'm not attached to it. Neither do I care whether I come to agree with your views or something that differs. No matter. I won't say you're "singing mumbo-jumbo." I respect your experience and mine.

The purpose of this thread is to communicate our interpretation of a concept. Words are used. Do I use them extensively in my own personal experience? No. We all have our own pace and our own needs, including a need to share.



PaulLin,
no need to excuse your English. I don't mind making the effort, and you're doing okay. Some things I understand, some not as well. We see things somewhat differently and somewhat the same, but your sharing what you see with me I find to be a good thing. This has been worthwhile. So, is the bottom line a good thing.

best to all,
Cody

[PaulLin]

I think the worst part of my English is the reading part.

And I think no mater what people are thinking, the rules of the nature(tao) would stays the same. People only positioning themselves differently by how they think.

[prana]

Originally posted by Cody
Whoa, prana. My efforts just above were geared simply to make sure I was understanding what PaulLin meant to say, and talk to him. In a slightly earlier post within this thread is my short opinion, which was not blabbering, just an opinion based on my limited experience.
Cody
Hold your horses :D

I am not saying YOU are blabbering, Cody. But I am saying when you discover the effect of losing energy even by talking, you tend to not talk as much, except when you feel it will help someone (as eg.). Sorry for the misunderstanding there mate, no personal attacks, especialyl not to you.

Sorry to intervene on your conversation. :o

[Cody]

prana, you are most welcome. Just didn't want you to think that was my sole contribution, cause then, it wouldn't have been so good.

By the by, you said something interesting that sparked a memory.
Step one. I'll start by relating what I'm saying to T'ai Chi. It applies to other arts, but that's where it started for me. Movement takes energy, but proper movement can take less, be more efficient. As one progresses, there are times for the novice when a different energy seems to take over. I would call that moving without moving, driven by intent and by disciplined energy. It's not floating; it's dynamic and can be very fast.

Step two. I remember being told to try to be soft-spoken, to try to maintain a generally moderate demeanor because too much shaking up was depleting. Teachers told us that.

Step three. In the beginnings of other martial training I started to learn the connection between the organic energy within and the voice. I would have liked to have pursued this further, from a practical standpoint. I believe it would have yielded more, but .... .

Step four. Given this range of understanding, and my interest, it is my opinion that the correct use of energy, including that of the voice can minimize the energy drain of which you speak. This comes by degrees.

I think of these things in a martial context, in terms of the energy and spirit within one. Am I wrong in thinking that you seek the silence, the stillness of nothingness beyond the immaterial? Yes?

Maybe the energy loss is not so great when the voice is trained and the mind does not wander as much. Not that I'm there. And, when output of energy can be restored by the training, then, the behavior can relate to what is available, whether it is walking down the road or fighting, using heart and spirit. That seems to be my interest. Can we relate on this in the most simple manner?

thanx,

Cody :)

[PaulLin]

Put Qi in a financial way, in which the return must be greater than the cost. If the cycle completed and strong enough, the return should be greater then the cost. So no matter what are you doing, talking, moving, or any thing, you will gain more qi rather than lose more.

That is idealized. Many can only achieve that under a special controlled environment and mental/physical conditions.

What I am doing with Taichi now is to take on opponent's pressure and still try to balance the cycle so I can gain more qi as I use more.

Still working on it, it is not very consistant yet.

[prana]

Cody ;)

I am not sure if you are asking me a question or telling me something. But I am guessing its the former. Just ignore me if I am wrong.

Well there are two ways of explaining step

1. Both very different.

The Western Scientific way goes something like this. When you initially learn a movement, your conscious is learning to execute every movement, and your motor neurons are adapting. For example, you are timing a jump onto a platform. You tend to visualise how you will jump and where you will take off best. Then as you practise like this, your body learns how it felt from the first experiences. WHen your body has mastered the moves (wether its perfect or not) it has stored the movements in your subconscious. So when you go to execute it, it works quickly and easily, and almost like it was simple to begin with. Just think of walking...

The Eastern method states that when you make a movement, you should be aware of that movement, such that, when you walk. Your mind awareness should be placed at your feet as you touch the ground, balance, lift, move to front, place, shift weight, touch ground, balance etc. When your mind becomes unscattered like this, your energy is well concentrated in the area. Again, once you can safely rest your mind in that movement, and remain aware, you will find that you are almost walking weightless.

I guess the main difference here is that a non-MA (non-yogic) method is to realise just enough for execution. Whilst yogins tend to analyse, what is the underlying beneath this, and that, oh and this... maybe this... I guess you could equate to reading every book in the library just to understand F=ma. Thank god its not so difficult.



I remember being told to try to be soft-spoken, to try to maintain a generally moderate demeanor because too much shaking up was depleting. Teachers told us that.

It's the same for us. Unfortunately, being online is especially difficult as the recipient as the freedom to digest the words with a totally different intent as the writer. It is easy, when you make a joke, and you know it has suddenly offended a lot of people, obviusly you can feel someone's hurt. That unsettles you. More so, you might even begin to feel that person resenting you. That makes you very unsettled. Perfection of speech is difficult, I would know, I stuff up and anger ppl all the time.

Humbleness and acceptance is also a sign of compassion in itself. Like if two people are fighting on a subject such as qi. And both of them are not really open-minded and willing to find out, just want to challenge, then one has to step back otherwise the end result is anger and maybe war between the two. It's better to just stay out of it. Sometimes these people are your best teachers because they remind you of seeing things from differing views. This is a very difficult example because qi cannot be felt or discovered by typing or talking on a public forum.



Step three. In the beginnings of other martial training I started to learn the connection between the organic energy within and the voice. I would have liked to have pursued this further, from a practical standpoint. I believe it would have yielded more, but .... .

Wongsifu is a great person to discuss this with on this subject. Unfortunately, a big loss for us, he only visits once in a while now. There are so many methods of meditation.


I think of these things in a martial context, in terms of the energy and spirit within one. Am I wrong in thinking that you seek the silence, the stillness of nothingness beyond the immaterial? Yes?

Nothingness, emptiness, is very difficult to understand. I think if you think that when you stir a suspension of Alum in liquid, you will get a mass of white cloud. It is difficult to see through this cloud. You need to give it time, let it settle and let it settle by simply being. That is, just let thoughts pass, dont allow yourself to become unsettled by it, it's very different from ignoring and reacting....

The mind is the same, whilst reading this thread, you are thinking maybe, I am hungry! I feel like lobster dinner! I hate that guy who screamed at me! my wife is going to kill me cause I forgot her birthday! my crotch is itchy! this keys on this keyboard is moving about, I swear !. But when the mind becomes still, the thoughts are subsided, then slowly you will begin to realise the subtler nature of thoughts.

Also when your thoughts subside, and your mind becomes still, you will also find the connection between body & mind. That the body is inherently dead without intent. The Alum settles and the vessel becomes clear.

Here lies the difficulty of discussing, feeling or understanding Qi. When you search for it, your mind cannot settle hence you cant feel it. When you "focus" you are trying, and that is counter productive to your sensitivity. You need to remain at peace, not search for it, when a thought comes, watch it and let it die away. When the mind jumps to recognise that banging on the door, and your heart falls on the floor cause your mother in law is at the door, dont allow the mind to scatter and part from peace. Just bring it back without being angry or afraid, like nothing has happened. This way, your mind will settle.

OK I have talked a lot, along the way, I am sure I have caused people hurt, discomfort et all. I'll shuddup now. Sorry.

[dezhen2001]

Prana: you're doing just fine to me :)

That was real interesting guys! Turning in to a good discussion... I don't have much experience with Qigong (compared to you guys), so will let you all talk theory ;)

david

[Cody]

I enjoyed your write up. Printed it out because I need time to develop and then come back. I was both telling (to indicate where my mind is so you could address me effectively) and asking.
hmm. It seems that often when there is something of interest to me the name of Wongsifu comes up. Unfortunate that he's not around.

It is towards the end of your post when I'm not sure. I think our ways are different. I do agree that searching for one's own Qi is like chasing a nifty mouse thru a barn. Yet, my experience of self and stillness, leading to action, seems different. It is fundamentally different in that I seek a means to action, and you wish to simply settle and be at peace. There is no right or wrong here; I think it is a matter of orientation and of who we are. We are both in agreement on the importance of Intent. Thank you for honoring my request so nicely. You've done me a service.

best,
Cody

[12345]

Originally posted by Liokault
I also practice Chi Gung exercises as much as that may suprise many people here and and even demonstraight my abilitys!!!!

Liokault - could you outline what these exercises achieve (are they for health, strength, iron body etc) and what is the theory behind them ? Thanks.

[Liokault]

Liokault - could you outline what these exercises achieve (are they for health, strength, iron body etc) and what is the theory behind them ? Thanks.

There are 2 sets of 12 exersizes. 12 yin12 yang.

The Yin are for health and your physique, the yang are for strength and power. Each one has a theory behinde it such as stimulating the circulation ect.

After 3 months of learning the first set of 4 yin you are expected (if your a bloke) to have a guy of similar body weight to your self jump on to your belly with you flat on the floor from head/shoulder height. This is done without the help of sit ups ect just the yin work.

I'm not sure if the nei gung (re chi kung but my teacher hates that term) is what is giveing people the ability to take this punishment as I have yet to meet a guy who will let me jump on to him with out doing the nei gung.

I have yet to see any one get hurt doing this and have seen many people go though it.

The nei gung also gives many other benefits and is generaly a very good work out.

[roughnready]

Last I heard it was some kind of an unknown electrical type energy that flows through everyones body. Atleast that's what I read.