Check This Out!

[Black Jack]

This makes me so sick, I KNOW it will make some of you very ****ed, it was almost enough for me to go kick a touchy huggy hippie in the nutsack on sheer principle.

Read about the Breaking Down the Wall Program secretly used in the Santa Cruz schools and how they got caught, a real life behavior control program done in secret and without the permission of the children, there parents or gaurdians.

http://www.freedom21santacruz.net/issues/Family-autonomy/breakwall/index.html

If that did not work try the home page and go to the Rally Link for the story and its links, its a big story, a number of papers have covered it.

http://www.freedom21santacruz.net/index.html

What would you do if your kid was involved????????????????

How does something like this get started?

[diego]

hey dude, peace mahn... link dont work man, hehe

[Black Jack]

Link is fixed.:)

[Merryprankster]

You will be assimilated.

Resistance is Futile.

[diego]

i read the contents so far, i have to disconnect pretty quick, i live in canada and am broke as hell so right now am not worrying about losing my property, I rent.

I can see how loss of property would urk you, what is thier position on the pros of this bill?.

[Kuen]

You had to know this was coming when D.A.R.E. started teaching kids to rat out their parents. Ever since the 60's generation has come to power they have tried to prevent people from making the choices they did and turn the USA into a giant nanny state.
Then you've got the same groups of right wing god ol' boys that have been around for years who want to dumb you down to where you are nothing but a servant to the government and the big companies that controls it.

Realistically, I can see this happening in a big corperation as a way to ensure loyalty in their employees and promote teamwork because they'll claim revealing your "secrets" is bonding or some crap like that.

[Royal Dragon]

Somma anyone?

[Black Jack]

"Disgusted but expected"-

Thats the right way to put it. It kinda reminds me of the Bentley Little horror novel the "Store".

diego-????

MerryPrankster- :D

Royal-????

[Merryprankster]

Read Brave New World--you'll get the Soma reference, if you didn't already :)

I'm so glad I'm an Alpha + +.... :)

[Royal Dragon]

It describes a world where all is controlled by the government, and everyone is genetically created in test tubes for specific rolls in society, and then brainwashed to love accept and feel suprior to all others in society. Then, to keep every one calm and complacent they are issued a drug called Somma.

The charecters feel that Somma is a nescessity, and without it one would be angry bitter and miserable. It's an addictive, but physically harmless drug that the government gets everyone dependant on for mass mind controll purposes.

Read the book, many feel it is the blue print the Liberals are trying to build our society on.

It was required reading in my High school (Public of course). They tried to convince us that it was a utopian society, and the main charector of the story brought nothing but pain and misery to himself by bucking the system.

I saw it in a contrarian way though, and it has instilled a fear of such things in me. I guess I'm a born rebel.

I have a copy of it somewhere still, as a warning of things to come :eek:

[Merryprankster]

Huh Royal, that's funny. It was always presented to me as being a social satire--what happens when social engineering is carried too far.

I swear when I start teaching the kids are going to hate me....

[Royal Dragon]

I guess my teacher had and "Agenda" maybe?

[Merryprankster]

It's certainly possible your teacher had an agenda. I rapidly learned to write what my Public Policy teacher wanted to hear in College.

But the kids will hate me because the first essay question will be about supporting one side of an argument, and then the 2nd will be about supporting the other. I don't give a crap about their personal feelings--I want them to be able to develop an argument.

[Royal Dragon]

They can get to see all of the "right" ways to justify their positions, and the wrong ways as well.

You can have them practice defeting those with inferior argumenative skills as extra credit.

[Royal Dragon]

You may want to have them study Ralek too. I know he's been an education for me!!!!:eek:

[MonkeySlap Too]

I've had my share of professors with agendas. I chose to fight them, and frankly I won each time. School is there to teach you to think. Remember Logic and Rhetoric? Well, they stopped teaching those before I got to college, ******. But it didn't stop me from learning.

Frankly the distinctions between liberals and conservatives in this country are silly, and largely meaningless.

Follow the money, and you'll learn the purpose of our voluminous laws. Frankly, in a world where low tech terrorists can significantly disrupt complex societies, I wonder if the old American liberal dream (ie libertarian) has had it's day. How can you insure security without a little intrusiveness? And if we accept this intrusiveness, who will watch the watchmen?

[Merryprankster]

Well he taught me why so many people didn't like BJJ.

I was never sure what to make of the end of Brave New World. So the guy kills himself...so what? Was it a way to say that individuality cannot survive in a conformist world? Japan has a hard enough time with that--didn't need a book :)

MonkeySlap Too--arguing and winning with your teacher is one thing--been there, done that. But it was too much of a hassle to deal with the paper writing. So I sell out for a few pages so I can do something I want to do--like write my Nietzsche paper, which I loved doing. Certainly an acceptable sacrifice.

Logic and Rhetoric AREN'T taught. Neither is civics or the Western Cannon. All of these are sorely needed but are lost in an age of "fruit for fun and profit." Don't laugh--my little brother is taking this course for credit at University of Florida.

[ReverendTim]

Hey, I'm in no way in favor of using public schools as a place for sociological experimenting, and I think that self-esteem claptrap takes up WAY too much time in the classroom these days...

BUT...this is hardly an unbiased piece of news reporting. Any website that links to WND is, by my thinking, a little predisposed to find a liberal "social-engineering" conspiracy in anything they don't like.

Don't get me wrong. This program seems like an utter waste of time, but the "Freedom 21 Santa Cruz" site seems a little hysterical about it. Did you follow the links and read the questions? "Are you a good kisser" and "do you have a friend who is gay" hardly constitutes a "secret behavioral control exercise that...has students publicly confess their sexual behaviors."

Settle down, you John Birchers.

--
Rev. Tim

[Merryprankster]

Rev--no argument. It's certainly a biased website :)

[MonkeySlap Too]

heh. I remember driving through Indianas once and seeing a sign that said "US out of the UN!"

I couldn't help but wonder about that. Frankly, the UN is flawed, but the world really is better with it than without it.

Yeah, that sight was a bit of a screed, but at the same time if it was my kids and the schools were violating the law by not allowing me to review what they were up to, well I'd be a little ****y too.

What's WND?

[MonkeySlap Too]

In 1949, the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization conducted a series of seminars for teachers, called "Toward World Understanding." This brief excerpt provides a flavor of the series:

"As long as the child breathes the poisoned air of nationalism, education in world-mindedness can produce only rather precarious results. As we have pointed out, it is frequently the family that infects the child with extreme nationalism. The school should therefore use the means described earlier to combat family attitudes that favor jingoism."

This was from the WND site - they had real issues with this. Frankly, whats the deal? Nationalism was seen as a primary motivator in two world wars. It is the ego stroke behind the aggressive elements in the PRC, and in a way it sits at the heart of the muslim extremeist position. In a world where our lives are bound together in such a complex system, wouldn't you want people to treat each other as people rather than 'others'. That doesn't mean you don't protect yourself, or choose for yourself your approach to life, but why support nationalism? I support my country, but I'm no jingoist, nor do I want anyone else to be.

Frankly, a bigger perspective on the world is needed.

But this does not at all imply agreement with the other behavior mod stuff. When I was in school I had an spider sense for this garbage and always stood up against it. Frankly, personal privacy must be protected.

[Royal Dragon]

Don't we like OWN the UN? If we got out of it, would it even exist?

[rogue]

That's a real nice building that UN is, it'd make some great condos.
But then if we expelled all of the third world diplomats all the hookers around there would go broke.

Anybody have to sit through sensitivty/diversity training at work? I've been through the ordeal three times now. The fun part is to anger the guide/instructor/brainwasher enough to lose their cool while maintaining yours.

[Shadow Dragon]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
Don't we like OWN the UN? If we got out of it, would it even exist?

Naah, I am sure that the other 149 Member Countries can keep it going without the US.

Give it up Guys, you are not that important. semi-j/k

Ppeace.

[rogue]

Oh yeah? Says who?:mad: How bout we toss them out of that nice building and move the whole UN to Dayton Ohio? who'd be laughing then Mr European Person? :D

[Shadow Dragon]

Who would be laughing than, still mee.
You think that ALL of the UN is housed there??

Atleast we pay our Fees on time. ;)

NOBODY owns the U.N. you are a Member if deemed fit, pay your dues and so on.
And if you are a Member you can make decisions and can belong to Boards like the Human Rights Commissison.

Nothing is automatic U.N. Member states got to earn their stay there.


Peace

P.S.: Not gojng to keep posting on this thread.

[MaFuYee]

what?!?! - brainwashing techniques used in school?? (i thought that that was what church was for.) - well, i say it's about time! - their first agenda should be to convince mid western kids that p-diddy is not cool!

[NYerRoman]

Uh...I need to interject.

I really can't believe that it is such a blatant government control thing designed to indoctrinate the children.

What I get from it was a school was trying to bring out REAL thoughts, ideas and attitudes of students towards taboo topics that American society likes to think families discuss.

You know, in Scandinavia, students talk freely about these things without any censorship. It shows others that they are not "abnormal" or "alone".

Plus it gives educators a better idea what is happening in the students' minds.
Usually, we pretend all is peachy keen, families are open and united, the local church takes care of moral issues, no one takes drugs...and if they do their parents need to be more strict...etc.

One educator thought of it as useful for students. If the info was to be used AGAINST the students, now that is a different story. But, I wish someone did that when I was in school. America needs to stop thinking it is a puritanical, God-fearing society. There are problems that need to be dealt with. I think it's getting worse. So, boh...good on them.

[Merryprankster]

NYer--c'mon... you're really not in tune with the American way:

"Denial is the spice of life." :D

Shadow, actually, I hate to tell you this, but there is one thing that can be automatic and we don't have to do much--veto power. We only have to deal with the P5...or not, if we just don't want to...ace in the hole. Same goes for the other 4 though :)

Just so you know though, I'd like to pay the dues. Please understand that is a function of Congressional Politics. It's almost impossible to appropriate, then allocate (not the same thing) funding for UN dues thanks to certain members of Congress. Most of us would LIKE to pay our dues.

[Black Jack]

Yeah the site is baised but IMHO the meat of the subject matter is still rotten.

Educators often overstep there bounds, based on personal ideas of what there role as a teacher should be, what they believe is better for the kids, even if that goal often oversteps the viewpoints of the parents.

Not saying this is always bad, but it has gotten teachers into trouble before and will yet again, I don't believe any educator should be allowed to ask personal sexual questions to children without a parents permisson, unless they believe a crime has taken place and that job is for law enforcement, the best reason is that I don't trust a lot of people, what there true agenda's are, there are a lot of ****ed up teachers.

I remeber a story that my girlfriend told me about a 17 year old girl they hired on at work for some pt stuff, this girl was talking about a teacher there who is always stating vile things to the students, though to this girls mind there is nothing wrong with the statements, one of the things I remeber from the converstation was something like-"man if you were 18, I would f@uck your brains out."

Check out the recent scandal at the rich Moose Heart Private School, over the past 6 years they have had over 7 sexual molestation charges, they most recent was a few days ago, a perv who molested over 6 kids.

Again I just don't trust the agenda of a program that is kept secret.

Oh and I am not a fan of the UN either, I am sure they have there place though, somewhere.:rolleyes:

[The Willow Sword]

Black Jack and i are in total agreement on this one.

Many Respects,,,The Willow Sword

[Black Jack]

Willow Sword

Who said that wonders don't exist.

Peace

[ReverendTim]

Again, I don't think that "are you a good kisser" constitutes an invasive sexual question. I also think that trying to put diversity training and "if you were 18 I'd f your brains out" in the same ballpark is, shall we say, a real stretch. I also don't buy that it was "kept secret." That's utterly illegal and no administrator would be stupid enough to do it.

Look, I'd rather my kid's school did such a bang up job that he was learning Greek and Latin and Calculus. But the fact of the matter is that so many parents are such utter screwups that the schools HAVE to take over some of their responsibilities just to get kids to point where they CAN learn.

This program seems stupid, and it probably is, but if parents did their jobs instead of plopping their kids down in front of the TV or sending them off to day care so mommy and daddy can be sure to have the latest model SUV or heck, smoking crack and staying out all night, then the schools could stick to the three R's.

I had to do diversity training in college. Didn't want to. But it took an afternoon and made me examine my beliefs from a different perspective. Unless you're chronically insecure, that's hardly a bad thing.

And public school teachers don't have crazy hidden political agendas. They just don't. So put down the binoculars and relax...the black helicopters aren't coming for you.

--
Rev. Tim

[Merryprankster]

Good post rev.

The biggest problem, in my mind, is that teachers are no longer allowed to fail students, and those who do are practically reprimanded for it. I have several friends that are teachers, and my mother is a professor, and it's very hard to fail them. Never mind that the parents of the child immediately have a fit.

This is a form of discipline--there are very real consequences to your actions (of not working hard enough), unfortunately, "every opportunity to succeed," has turned into grade inflation.

I loved it when I got my first D. I realized I had a teacher and a system with some integrity, because I really didn't deserve even THAT. :)

[chingei]

Originally posted by ReverendTim

And public school teachers don't have crazy hidden political agendas. They just don't.

--
Rev. Tim

None of them? really? and we can rest assured of this because you have employed the invincible "they just don't" argument?

[Merryprankster]

chingei--how about generally speaking they don't? :) I think that's fair....

But the "they just don't," argument is VERY POWERFUL. :D

[ReverendTim]

Okay, you're right. Technically, I haven't met every teacher everywhere. So to satisfy the terminally picky amongst you, let me qualify...

There may one or two secret socialist sleeper agents placed carefully in handpicked public schools across the country, lying in wait to make our god-fearing American schoolchildren into ****sexual commie robots that exist solely to further the New World Order's agenda of one world government so that the antichrist may come as fortold in the book of Revelations...

But the VAST MAJORITY OF THEM are underpaid, overworked, idealists who want your kids to be smarter than they are right now.

--
Rev. Tim

[Black Jack]

Sorry, I don't have that kind of "faith" in our school systems as a whole.

Who is talking about black helicopters, politcal agendas and the new world order???

How do you know it was not kept secret, the papers reporting the incident seem to think otherwise, I am not saying it was on the par of james bond, but it was not handled in the correct fashion, at least not IMHO.

It is NOT the schools responsibility to teach diversity training, I am not saying that the idea is bad, and I also agree that there are a ton of messed up and selfish parents, but the school has only the responsibility to educate in a certain format, by school I mean high school and lower, not the advanced levels of college.

Just as there is a seperation of church and state, something which is right on the money, though a number of numbnut teachers and staff still try to push that dogma on the sly, there should be a seperation between what a teacher's job is and what a parent's job is.

To say that this is needed because all parents are jerk-off's is to general of a viewpoint, everything is a case by case basis, as this program should of been in the begining.

[ReverendTim]

Oh, my bad. I thought that since the thread started with the assumption that all teachers were forcing a left-wing agenda down unsuspecting students' throats, generalities were okay.

Mea culpa.

The papers reporting it are total right-wing rags. The only halfway legitimate source I saw linked to the story was the Seattle Times. The rest were nothing but typical online "libertarian" sources that spend all their time quoting each other and pretending that that's the same as unbiased research.

Incidentally, here's a quote from the ORIGINAL article as printed in the Santa Cruz Sentinel, and in the SUMMARY (which is NOT as balanced) featured on the Freedom 21 Santa Cruz site:

"That’s because school officials neglected to follow district policy that requires having materials available for parental preview two weeks in advance and permission slips signed by parents before students participate when controversial topics are discussed. Materials were not immediately available after the event either."

See? District policy is that parents should be notified and permission slips signed. That's not a secret agenda, that's somebody screwing up. Ten bucks says someone gets fired over it. Not saying it wasn't handled badly, but I am saying that it was an administrative snafu, NOT evidence of an overly-liberal stealth curriculum.

Incidentally, I was taught how to do that kind of research and think for myself in a public f'ing school.

I'm quite sure that most teachers would LOVE to be able to stick to the basics. Unfortunately, they're getting kids who are less and less able to learn and fewer and fewer resources to try to reach them. Add to that the fact that their jobs are increasingly dependent on standardized tests that don't take into account the complete lack of support and money they have to teach, and you leave the poor SOB in the classroom holding the bag in an untenable position.

Merryprankster is right, in a way. If a teacher was able to go, "Hey, I presented the material, and if your kid was too distracted, hung up, sexualized, hopped up on ritalin, dealing with an alcoholic parent, or whatever to get it, well, that's too bad. He still gets an F," then it would be fair to hold them solely responsible.

But we don't. We give them no money, screwed up kids, and no backup. Then when our kids do poorly, we blame them, sue them, ***** at them, demonize the teachers union, paint them with the "social engineering" brush, and leave them out to dry, and everybody feels like their opinion on educational policy is just as valid because, hey, they went to school, they know how it should be run. We tie their hands as to methods they can use or materials they can have and then we all sit back and Monday morning quarterback when the inevitable happens.

--
Rev. Tim, son of teachers, a former teacher, and a big believer in public education.

[Merryprankster]

When I'm done doing whatever it is I'm done doing, I'm teaching. In a public school.

Why am I waiting until I retire? The money. I'd be good at teaching. **** good. But I won't do it for $48K.

You jack that up to $80K--which, plus benefits, would be comparable to what I make now in the Coast Guard, and I'd make the switch in a heartbeat. I love teaching, but I'm a realist.

You want better teachers? You have to be willing to pay for it. That means SERIOUSLY increasing state taxes, because people are the biggest expense of any organization.

I've never understood the something for nothing mentality. We demand better teachers but don't want to pay for it. Yeah... sure....

[ReverendTim]

I'm right there with you, MP. I taught English to inner-city kids for a year. I *loved* it. I was *good* at it. I had the captain of the football team writing poems and the local Latino gang kids writing about the Christ symbolism in Cool Hand Luke.

But like you, I just can't do it for the dough. I would love to go back to teaching. It's the only thing I've ever found that I like as much as comedy. But if I decided to teach, I'd have to take a second job just to pay the bills.

How sick is it that for the last two years I was making 8 G's a year MORE than a first year teacher for TESTING VIDEO GAMES? (I'd be a liar if I said I didn't love that job, though) Point is, that shouldn't happen in a society that theoretically values education.

Heck, give me 50K a year, plus benefits and summers off, and I'll teach EVERYBODY's kids how to read!

--
Rev. Tim

P.S. And if we had more people like you willing to do it just on general principle, we'd be a **** sight better off, too. I salute you, sir.

[chingei]

Originally posted by ReverendTim
Okay, you're right. Technically, I haven't met every teacher everywhere. So to satisfy the terminally picky amongst you, let me qualify...

There may one or two secret socialist sleeper agents placed carefully in handpicked public schools across the country, lying in wait to make our god-fearing American schoolchildren into ****sexual commie robots that exist solely to further the New World Order's agenda of one world government so that the antichrist may come as fortold in the book of Revelations...

But the VAST MAJORITY OF THEM are underpaid, overworked, idealists who want your kids to be smarter than they are right now.

--
Rev. Tim

alright. that satisfies my need to be a pain in the ass. lol

but in all candor, I have met quite a few school teachers who have been way, way, waaaaaaay left of center, quite militant in their views, and who do not hesitate to preach in the classroom. One cannot be faulted for one's views, but when they influence a learning environment, they need at least be tempered and balanced. this would seem (to me) to be a reasonable approach regardless as to one's political leaning (right, left, nut-job lunatic nader, nut-job lunatic II buchanan, etc). students, particularly younger ones, are impressionable and that necessitates a very careful and reasoned approach to expressing one's views. too many 'adults' in all walks of life are too **** ignorant and self-centered to edit themselves. this isn't the same type of problem for folks who are not in a position to influence young people. alot of folks who go into education are, as you said, idealistic. more often than not this idealism expresses itself in a predictable political leaning. hence, the popular notion that school teachers are spewing liberal rhetoric all over a captive audience of young people.

you may consider the above a gross generalization based on anecdotal evidence and limited testimony and disregard it at your leisure.

[chingei]

If there weren't a (failed) system of public education, this conversation wouldn't be happening

[chingei]

Originally posted by ReverendTim
The papers reporting it are total right-wing rags. The only halfway legitimate source I saw linked to the story was the Seattle Times. The rest were nothing but typical online "libertarian" sources that spend all their time quoting each other and pretending that that's the same as unbiased research.



but the left-wing 'rags' (hmmm new york times anyone?) are bastions of fairness

[ReverendTim]

but the left-wing 'rags' (hmmm new york times anyone?) are bastions of fairness

Don't put words in my mouth, please. If we're going to lament the death of the gods of logic and rhetoric, let's honor them by adhering to their principles.

In this particular case, the particular journals cited are unequivocally rightist and utterly biased. If I'd used the NYT to back up some points, you could rebut me with it. I didn't, so your argument is irrelevant.

There are plenty of left-wing sites that are just as biased in the same way on the other side of the fence. I agree with you on that. Doesn't mean I take their journalism with any less of a grain of salt. Please don't assume I do.

I would put the Freedom 21 Santa Cruz and WND sites on the same level of bias as an alternet.org or some such on the left. I can't stand them either.

--
Rev. Tim

P.S. And I agree that a teacher has a bully pulpit and should use it responsibly. I would wager that I've met and know and have SEEN IN THE CLASSROOM more teachers than you, and I think you're painting with an unfairly broad brush.

[chingei]

Originally posted by ReverendTim

I would wager that I've met and know and have SEEN IN THE CLASSROOM more teachers than you, and I think you're painting with an unfairly broad brush.

I hope you wouldn't wager more than you could afford to lose.

[ReverendTim]

Note to self: don't give him satisfaction of taking bait.

--
Rev. Tim

;)

[chingei]

d'oh!

[NYerRoman]

Merry,
What is the american way that I'm missing?

[scotty1]

Uh oh.

"Shadow, actually, I hate to tell you this, but there is one thing that can be automatic and we don't have to do much--veto power. We only have to deal with the P5...or not, if we just don't want to...ace in the hole. Same goes for the other 4 though "

Who else has veto power? Who are the P5?

WHAT??

I must learn about the UN...

[Merryprankster]

NYer--it's a joke. Did somebody steal your sense of humor in Rome? :)

[greendragon]

Blackjack, about the first thread post, Be Careful, i hear a lot of touchy huggy hippies wear protective cups with sharp steel spikes in them.