Chen style teacher "Chi does not exist"

[greendragon]

here is a good one. this Chen Tai Chi, Hsing-i, Pa Kua teacher is teaching his students that Chi does not exist and acupuncture is quackery. visit www.kungfu4u.com where he runs a discussion board. He is one of those self proclaimed masters "American Tao". Someone in Chen style should set him straight.

[Kumkuat]

old news. And acupunture is as effective as sugar pills.

[Repulsive Monkey]

The bloke who heads that american school seems pretty mixed up and sounds like he has basic and quite superficial understanding of internal. What a joke to say that he studies under Chen Xioa Wang who has spent his whole life cultivating his Qi and the is joker refuses to learn from his extensive experience by being so biased and blatanly ignorant. Of course the sad truth is, is that so many people say they study under great Grand Masters but the reality is that their claims when revealed usually mean that in fact they pay huge sums of money for the master in question to come and visit their school twice a year. This happens with many schools in th UK and europe and because of that everyone thinks they are an indoor disciple or something.
By the way anyone who attaches creedence to Randi and his organistion is a complete wacko in my books. Randi is such an embarassment to the modern world of science its untrue.

Acpuncture as effective as sugar pills? Good lord would it be asking too much Kumkuat as to how your extensive experience and study of the subject has finally brought you to this conclusion? Or is it merely an assumption based on what you've read? I could be wrong but an explanation would set my mind at rest Kumkuat!

[kungfu cowboy]

Actually, sugar pills and other inert substances, and in some cases just certain situations are just as or more effective than a "real" treatment. It's called the placebo effect. HA!:p

[Liokault]

Chi is non existant.


Some chinese guy 700 (plus)years ago with no acess to modern medical/biological ideas put together a theory on what we today know as our cardio vascular system. He had no idea why blood flowed though our systems,why we breath,how energy gets to our muscles or why it really is good to ejaculate regularly.


Any one who atributes anything in their training to Chi is a fraud or is being badly misled.


Sorry to repeat my self

[Repulsive Monkey]

No need to apologise Liokault it just means that you make yourself look twice as ignorant on this issue.

[Liokault]

No need to apologise Liokault it just means that you make yourself look twice as ignorant on this issue.

Ok Repulsive tell me what "Chi" is.

You cant can you?

Not with out useing terms like mystical flowing energy.

You are so easly sold stupid ideas.

[Repulsive Monkey]

I can't believe how stupid you have just made yourself sound mate! I thought initially that I could of got a seasoned and reasonable debate and discussion out of you but when you come back with such presumptions like that, I can see straight away that I doubt that we're gonna get an objective discussion on a much vaunted subject.
Now I know you're a student or follower of Dan Docherty.

[count]

Can you explain how blood flows? ;) I will than explain to you what chi is without using any terms like "mystical flowing energy"

[count]

I would agree that the placebo affect can be quite powerful. So is hypnotism. HeII, some are gullable enough to believe or government is keeping us safe. But I have seen actual brain surgery with nothing more than acupuncture to stop the pain. :eek: Do you think sugar pills would be enough for you to go through that?

[Kumkuat]

I believe ancupunture's effects are mostly due to placebo effects, and maybe because the needles stimulate the nervous system to release endorphins. It doesn't really cure anything except through placebo.

[count]

On one hand Kumkuat, you are saying acupuncture does nothing and on the other you are saying it "stimulates the nervous system to release endorphins". Kind of a contradiction. I am not that knowlegable of Chinese medicine, but it's my understanding that acupuncture is a treatment for why the body got sick in the first place and not a cure for anything. I also don't think needles are placed in nerves. Maybe someone with actual knowledge of it could help here?

[GLW]

What you believe and what are may be and very often are two entirely different things.

Acupuncture has been shown to work in chronic pain instances. The exact mechanism is not fully understood. Some thoughts are through stimulation of the nervous system, endorphins, and other ideas.

Treatment using Acupuncture and Traditional Chinese Medicine have shown some positive effects as well as placebo effects (which are just as valid in dealing with illness...but can be achieved in many ways)

Many studies are inherently flawed. The biggest problem is that they have tried to diagnosis with Western medicine, then treat for that diagnosis with Chinese Medicine. Then Diagnosis with Chinese medicine and treat with Western...and then cross checking diagnoses. This is flawed because the concepts and road maps for diagnosis are different. A map of Liver function from Western medicine to the concept of the Liver in Chinese medicine is not exact and in many cases misleading.

The more successful studies have been double blind with diagnosis and treatment done in a single modality (Chinese or Western). These studies have shown that Chinese medicine does have value and can be an alternative in many instances. In addition, the herbs used are in many instances being examined for active ingredients for pharmaceutical use. This is quite common...for example, the foxglove plant was used for heart problems and was the basis for the drug digitalis.

Be skeptical...I was, but I have also tried it out and researched it. There are benefits to acupuncture and Chinese medical treatments.

[Brad]

What a joke to say that he studies under Chen Xioa Wang
Actually it says his teacher is Jim Criscimagna. Unless you're reading this somewhere else.
Acording to his bio his teachers were:
Grandmaster Sin The (Shaolin-Do)
Karen Vaughn (Tien Shan P'ai)
Pete Starr (Yi Li Chuan- Tai Chi, Bagua, Hsing Yi, Qigong)
Terry Dowd (Boxing)
John Morrow(same as Starr)
Jim Criscimagna (Chen Tai Chi)

Jim's the one who it says studied under Chen Xiaowang

I think it's also important to note that he's studied Chen Taiji for only about 5 years.

[Brad]

It's not so much his disbelief in Chi that bothers me, but the outright insulting way they go about discusion on that board. Flat out making fun of anyone who has a belief that they feel can't be proven through Western science(whether it's Qi, religion, etc.). Very hateful and arogant. It's hard to have respect for someone like that.

[Repulsive Monkey]

Well if he had studied directly under Xioa Wang he know by now that his beliefs in Qi and of primary importance and he would of let him know it as he did once when I met him. The literauture he has produced in articles over the years will testify to where he stands and I do not feel he would bother that much with a student who was so obviously against the idea and practice of Qi in a martial situation.

By the way Acpuncture does not work on the release of endorphins scenario. That idea was booted out years ago. Needles are certainly NOT inserted into nerves as it blimmimg well hurts to do such a thing, as anyone who has accidentally hand that done to them will testify for. Hitting nerves does nothing but make people go "OOOOWWWWWWWWW!!!!!", and holds no truck with chinese medicine.

[Walter Joyce]

And at the risk of this seeming an ad hominem attack, I visited the site, watch the clipe of his forms, and for someone with 30 years of experience, well, I'm not impressed.

[Repulsive Monkey]

Same here Walter, I would of expected 30 years of quality experience to be exhibited, not what I saw.

[fa_jing]

I've had accupuncture about ten times from a doctor who was well-known in China, before he came to the U.S.

Every single time, I was impressed by the MYOFASCIAL RELEASE
that accupuncture created along my tracts of connective tissue. Both during, and for a few hours after treatment. This is more than pain management, it is a change in your muscles and connective tissue that releases tensions that these fibers hold. It is very easy to detect, once you know the feeling. This has a cumulative and long term benefit.

Even better than Rolfing, I'd say.

-FJ

[greendragon]

wujidude: Aside from the chi issue, To say Pete Starr and Yi li chuan " didn't teach internal principles at all" is ludicrous. Yi li is composed of traditional PaKua and Hsing-I. No "mumbo jumbo". And i believe the dis-association was the other way around when he claimed to be teaching Yi li in this manner. What was he doing while holding and internalizing postures for 20 minutes, thinking about what's not happening ?

[Repulsive Monkey]

Ultimately and in all honesty I would expect Chen Xiao Wang to obviously say YES, and that is probably what he will say, but not to all his students. He probably realises that discussing such subjects are to the west quite abstruse and yes dare I say the word "Mysterious". However like any good master, sure they can teach Taiji without mentioning the words Qi etc., however if you are ever to fully embrace the higher concepts of the art, then you cannot avoid it. Basically one will always remain at a beginners level without encompassing the methodologies which he so amazingly taught and showed us at our seminar in the UK.

Its true he can show and teach describing body mechanics, but if you ask him at any of his seminars the same kind of questions and then ask about higher aspects he will tell you that you have to have experience and understanding of Qi if you don't want to be a beginner for the rest of your days.

One will always merely have the shell of the art and no substance to fill it out. I teach beginners the bodily mechanics of how to do a whole short form, yet teaching them the internal aspect is more difficult and less accepted by some if there understanding is in conflict with it.

[Walter Joyce]

Whether accurate or not, this thread beagn with this quote, "this Chen Tai Chi, Hsing-i, Pa Kua teacher is teaching his students that Chi does not exist and acupuncture is quackery."

I agree that skill can be developed without reference to the qi paradigm. That does not mean that qi (or more accurately, jing, the transformation of qi to a usable martial energy) is not being developed, just that the practitioner is not fully aware of what is happening.

I also try to understand internal training from a biomechanical perspective (I am not claiming skills like any of the Chen famuily by any means) but this does not require total rejection of the qi paradigm, or rejecting the efficacy of accupuncture.

I confess a certain bias, one that I could express this way: I am bothered by people who throw out the baby with the bath water. There are qi charlatans out there, no question. But does this necessitate the rejection of one culture's understanding of the nature of things?

I am perplexed by people who seek out knowledge from a culture, here internal training, and then take the cafeteria approach...i.e. I'll accept this from coloum A but reject that from colum B.
I beleive I also understand the counter argument, that one should be encouraged to view their teaching from a critical stance. There needs to be a balance, I believe between these two.
This argument could, and probably should, be developed further, but for the moment I'll end with one of my favorite cliches in the hope of sparking further intelligent discussion.
Minds are like parachutes, they work best when fully opened. In this context I assert that this means leaving open the possibility that qi exists, is a natural force that is outside the western paradigm, and the only mystery attached to it is that part of it we don't understand, not the things that can be achieved by accepting it as part of (not the first line of explanation) ones training.
Good training,
Walter

[Repulsive Monkey]

On the button mate, well said.

[GLW]

no one said you inserted at the nerve....

The human body is made up of a great deal water...meaning it conducts electricity quite well. Inserting a metal needle or influencing the electrical fields of a conductive system in any way can and does generate EM fields (Magnetic field alone according to the right hand rule with direction of current flow...)

So, is it possibly electrical...wouldn't surprise me. Is it chemical...OK... does it matter if it helps...not to me.

I am naturally skeptical. The first few times I had a treatment...my approach was "yeah...but it is probably BS...but let me see what happens" When you have a needle in one place and you get sensations down at another point...and know nothing about Jing Luo channels...and then after several treatments look on the acupuncture chart and see the EXACT points that you felt but had NO needle on, you may not know why it happens but you do know that something does happen. Then, if it feels better afterwards, you may not know why..but you do not discount it as BS.

[batesy]

I attended a seminar yesterday with Chen Xiao Wang in which he was teaching basics of silk reeling. I am a total beginner in Chen style, with less than a years experience, but he did give explanations from a viewpoint of chi movement, mental intention and body mechanics. Obviously, as a beginner I found myself focusing on the body mechanics as it was more helpful for the learning of the routines. There were more advanced students present however who were given explanations in terms of chi flow, although not at the expense of drilling and reinforcing correct body mechanics.

[RAF]

You know, we have been through this posting and argument several times over.

There are many ways and philosopical issues underlying science. Qi can be viewed as a construct. The predictions based on this construct have held up fairly well. Science uses many constructs which are not directly measureable but are inferred by derivable hypotheses that yield empirical predictions.

Western medicine is far from being a pure science. Mechanisms are often left uspecified as in epidemological studies and even in experimental settings, explanations of the mechamisms are often speculative at best Double-blind studies of drugs do not always specifiy the underliying mechanims of a drug's effect. We look for a statistical significance (effect significanlty different from zero or random error). We accept many western drug treatments without understanding its underlying mechanism.

Even more interesting is the inability of Western Science to definitively explain the mechanism of the placebo effect. Lots of speculative modeling that gets mistaken for proven fact but no definitive answer.

So, like GLW I am skeptical but my own experience echoes his regarding acupuncture. Also good post by Walter Joyce, too.

This topic will go on for a couple more posts and then sputter to a stop. Everything that could possibly be posted on this subject has been posted.

Do you believe in lab replications or historical replication. Or both?
There are a number of studies over the months on Yahoo Health that show acupuncture signficantly affects disease and condition outcomes.

Be pragmatic, as long as it works doesn't matter what the underlying explanations are or do they?

[Walter Joyce]

OK, complete non sequitor, but how did you guys register in december 1969? And thanks RM, RAF et al.

[dezhen2001]

hehe, it's to do with a problem that occured with the forum some time ago... Dates were lost and all screwed up.

I can answer THAT question :p

david

[Walter Joyce]

Thanks :)

[Liokault]

Repulsive Monkey...yes I am indeed a student of Dan Dochertys school of tai chi and I am proud to be able to say this.

Also I should point out that in our tai chi we are not told that chi is non existant or that it powers every thing. We are left to make up our owe minds.


Ok my turn to guess where you train.....I would guess some half assed yang style that tells you in 10 years if you train in the hand form enough then you will be able to fight useing your tai chi and chi powers.

I stand by my statment that chi is an old theory that science has passed by.

Any one who still belives in Chi belives because they WANT to belive...like guys who belive in Elvis being alive...They want to belive in elvis still being alive.

[KenGullette]

Hi Guys,
Great debate you have going.
I'm not sure why the debates on my site would be seen as hateful. It is no more hateful to call a chi "master" a fraud if he claims to move people without touching them, than it is to call Pat Robertson a fraud for sitting on his TV show, with eyes closed, talking about a woman in Nebraska whose hemmorrhoids are now healed. I have challenged a couple of people to back up their claims of "chi" powers on me, and they have all declined to do so. They usually get very angry and hurl insults. I am blunt in my replies, but never hateful. If it is arrogant to ask someone to prove their outrageous claims, then I agree that I am arrogant. But that doesn't mean I'm wrong about the frauds. :)

The purpose of my discussion on this topic is to get people to think more critically. If you believe something is fact, there must be good reason. Most people don't apply solid reasoning to their beliefs about chi. And the myths are perpetuated by magazines, movies and books. Stories of miraculous feats are printed with no corroboration or alternate view. Shoddy journalism is rampant. Those journalists who try to do a balanced job are ridiculed and sometimes beaten.

My Chen teacher is Jim Criscimagna. I do not study with Chen Xiaowang except at seminars, although I do have a private lesson set up for late July. I study with Ren Guangyi at seminars, too. I have the benefit of learning what Chen and Ren teach Jim -- he has the opportunity to study with them more closely and more often, and Jim's students get the benefit of that knowledge. It's a great opportunity.

As for my own skills, I have never, and you won't find it on the website, claimed to be more than I am -- a student. I conduct "classes" because no one else in my area practices these arts, but I make it clear to my students that I'm only just a little ahead of them, and they practice with me as I continue to learn.

I have spent over 2 decades as a journalist and I know that too many people are suckered into believing what people in "authority" positions tell them. Too many people believe something because heck, it's in a book or a magazine. Or my "master" told me it was true, so by Golly it must be true and if you disagree you don't know what you're talking about!! :) If you don't believe what ancient Chinese guys dreamed up then you have a "closed mind." :))

Repulsive Monkey has strong opinions, but little hard data to back him up, and that's the case with everyone involved in supporting ancient, outdated beliefs. Arguing with them is like arguing with a born-again Christian. There's no use.

However, if the questions I'm raising -- even if they sometimes seem a little blunt -- cause a few people to begin looking at this bogus science of "chi" a little more closely, that's okay with me.

In the meantime, I'm more than willing to take on some flames from those who have an emotional and financial investment in seeing that the myth about chi continues.

Chi is a valid concept to use to achieve proper body mechanics for effective internal arts. When Chen Xiaowang says "chi to fingers" I can feel what he's saying, but what I'm actually doing is setting up the proper body structure that will enable me to kick some butt, which is, after all, the purpose of Chen tai chi.

When Chen Xiaowang says, "chi to back," I understand what he is saying. I just don't take it literally.

American tai chi people are considered sissies by most martial artists of other styles. Why is that? Because many tai chi folks have their heads in the sky, thinking of being One with the Universe and feeling their chi flow instead of getting good instruction from good teachers on how to develop proper body mechanics to kick some butt.

If anyone on this discussion board really believes in "empty force", or if you believe that you can heal someone by emitting chi into their bodies, then defend your claim in a rational way with some hard evidence and valid, independent scientific studies. Or convince me through proper reasoning. The problem is this: proper reasoning is hard to come by.

[Liokault]

KenGullette


I fully agree with every thing you said above.

[greendragon]

Ken, if to "kick butt" is your ultimate goal then you are motivated only by fear. Perhaps you should give up MA and buy a gun.

[GLW]

The concept or construct of Qi is not the same thing as saying you believe in Lin Kong Jing or Emitting Qi.

Personally, I don't know if Qi is real in the strict definition. Is there REALLY a life energy in your body that flows in a circulatory system? Don't know. As a conceptual construct, does it provide a framework on which to hang things like Chinese Medicine, Qi Gong, health and longevity...yes..and for that it is valid and useful.

I do not need to know about the exact mechanism of friction in order to use a brake.

But to take a construct like Qi and Jing Luo and extend it to empty force and mystical healing...sorry...prove it in controlled environments.

That goes way beyond my willingness to suspend disbelief.

[Liokault]

Greendragon


I fully disagree with every thing you said above.

[taijiquan_student]

Chen Xiao Wang obviously knows what the **** he's talking about. To tell him, or any one like him "yes I will take your instruction" (whether or not you say that to him or just go to learn because he's your grand-teacher) and then when he tells you the qi goes to the fingers you just think "yeah, I'm gonna kick some ass" is disrespectful, in my opinion. I really am just a beginner, so I'm no ultimate authority, but then again Ken you said you're just a beginner in taiji as well.

"If anyone on this discussion board really believes in "empty force"

I don't think anyone's talking about empty force. In that respect I agree with you Ken. It seems that all those guys are fakes and quacks.

[KenGullette]

Hi Greendragon,
I'm afraid that tai chi was created as a martial art. I've been studying martial arts since 1973. My main purpose is not to "kick butt." I learned how to do that a long time ago. :) But if you are practicing tai chi and not learning to kick some butt, you aren't practicing tai chi as it was intended to be practiced.

It's perfectly fine to practice for meditation, relaxation, mind-body connection -- I do that, too -- but at its heart, tai chi is a martial art as powerful as any other. Are you saying Chen Wangting was driven to create tai chi by fear? He had retired as a warrior when he created the art. It was certainly a martial art when it was passed down from generation to generation in the Chen village.

I say "kick butt" with tongue firmly in cheek. I haven't been in a "real" fight since high school and have no intention of getting into one. But it's fun to learn how, isn't it? :)

The problem with tai chi in America is that the meditative and mystical version of tai chi was introduced and now is taught by people across the U.S. who have no idea how to use tai chi for fighting. They spend all their time trying to pretend that chi is going to turn them into super beings through development of "chi." As a result, a lot of Americans, in my opinion, are passing along bad quality.

A great tai chi class involves a considerable amount of physical pain. Attend one of Chen Xiaowang or Ren Guangyi's seminars and you'll see what I'm saying. At the end of our classes in Rockford, Illinois, many of us are drenched in sweat and our legs quivering. Growing up in the Chen village, Chen Xiaowang says he collapsed every day during training. These guys are really good because they are like Olympic athletes compared with us Americans. They've trained all their lives. They didn't get this way because of "chi." If you get my point.

Now, let me ask you: are my comments "hateful?" Some people take it that way because I am challenging their beliefs. Nothing is intended as hateful, but as a reality check for people like I used to be -- clouded by the crap that unqualified people were giving me because they wanted people to think that if chi exists, that means THEY might have great powers, too!! Get it?? If I make you think chi is real, that makes me appear mysterious, mystical and powerful. It's a human disease. Human nature.

[KenGullette]

I will add that my beliefs are my own. They are not necessarily shared by any of my teachers.

I've never heard either Chen Xiaowang or Ren Guangyi talk about miraculous chi powers. In fact, in one seminar I attended, Chen Xiaowang said Iron Shirt Chi Kung is not good for fighting. "Only demonstration," he said.

Chen Xiaowang also says you don't have to believe in chi to do good tai chi.

But the Chinese grew up in a culture of chi. I interpret it in a modern, educated American way. It doesn't bother me at all when I am told to move my chi to dan t'ien, then to back, then to fingers. I know what they mean, and it boils down to good body mechanics and posture. That's my interpretation. And I believe it is correct.

Good tai chi is a physical skill, requiring physical practice. Now I'm signing off for the evening. I have to practice Liao Jia Yi Lu and standing stake. :)

[KenGullette]

You misinterpreted my comments. Please have the flexibility of mind to understand tongue-in-cheek when you read it. The problem with emails and discussion boards is that you can't hear the inflection and tone of voice.

Believe me, Chen Xiaowang and Ren Guangyi can flat out kick some butt. Did you hear about the kickboxer that went to a Chen Xiaowang seminar? An eyewitness told me that during an application demo, the kickboxer sort of challenged Chen Xiaowang by asking, "So what do you do against multiple attacks?"

Chen Xiaowang replied, "Well, go ahead and throw multiple attacks."

Before the kickboxer's first technique was completed, he was on the floor in considerable pain.

Kicking butt is at the heart of tai chi. Many Americans have completely missed this point, because they have been taught by unqualified people, or by people who just aren't "into" fighting. That's okay (to not be into fighting) but real tai chi is a martial art.

But that isn't what I'm thinking about when I am told, in class, to put chi to fingers. I'm thinking about trying to find the correct posture. I'm trying to center my stance, relax, establish ground path and peng.

If I can learn that well enough, THEN I'll worry about kicking some butt. :)

We're all just beginners compared with these guys. We'll never be that good. It's a great pursuit. It's fun. And fun is one of the reasons we all got into martial arts, isn't it?

[taijiquan_student]

That's cool. Of course I totally agree about the martial aspect. I also remember hearing about a guy that went to attack CXW from behind and he ended up getting an elbow right into the chest/heart-area. I think he had to go see a doctor right on the spot.
It's a shame that so few people practice the martial aspect seriously. Yes, "kicking butt" is at the heart of tai chi, as I learn by way of getting smacked around by my teacher and the senior students every saturday morning in san shou.
I guess it's pretty easy to misunderstand people's comments over the net.
I may not agree with everything you say, but it doesn't matter. You do your thing, I'll do mine.

[Liokault]

Sadly the art of tai chi as a martial art is being forgotten at an amazing rate.

The really scarey thing is that the guys who have never practiced tai chi as a martial art belive that they have the whole art as it has always been.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Lets begin with some simple principles.. science (particle physics) tells us that everything is energy, expressed in so many ways.. that each time science has "found a particle of mass", it has subsequently been broken down to smaller parts and energy is released.. this cycle will continue until we realize that everything is simply energy behaving in specific patterns.. so, its all just energy.. Chi is simply one culture's understanding of "Energy".. that culture has learned how to utilize this energy (Chi) to both help and hurt (Tai Chi & QiGong).. If you so choose, do the research and learn about the "Heisenberg Experiments", where it has been proven that the observer has a direct effect on the outcome of controlled experiments where energy responds to the expectations of the participants.. in short, consciousness can control the way energy (Chi) behaves.. its science, its proven..

Those that would discount "Chi" as quackery are perfect examples of the "Heisenberg Experiments", their expectations are manifested in their realities.. They have successfully confined their experience of life to the illusion that life is some bio-mechanical function.. when, in fact, their bio-mechanical function is the result of a grand orchestration of consciousness and energy.. they are not right, they are not wrong, they are simply self-imposing a limitation that is unnecessary.. but, it suits their concept of "self"..

Modern science fully supports the concept of "Chi", it simply calls it "energy".. we are what we choose to be.. some choose the full experience, some choose a limited experience.. nothing worth arguing over, its just personal preference..

Now, the "kick-butt" mentallity, is from the school of thought that limits its concept of self to the tangible forms of energy (flesh and mass).. To assert that kicking butt is at the heart of Tai Chi is a sad expression of one's understanding of the Art.. Tai Chi is based on the interaction of Pos/neg energy (Yin/Yang).. the balance is derived from its opposites.. hurt/heal.. the heart of Tai Chi is understanding and awareness.. it is practiced through discipline and open-mided research..

Folly and arrogance are evident whenever one confines the infinite and eternal universe to the limits of their own perceptions..

Just another perspective from the far-side.. be well..

[Repulsive Monkey]

Interesting offensive you put up but Chen Wang Ting didn't create Taiji, just read the Taiji classics to fathom that one out.

I can see by what you have said that Chen Xiao Wang has only taken you so far, so why is it that whe he has told me to extend the qi beyond the body, why has he emitted qi into my body, and proved to me that external qi projection is a valid reason for practicisng Taiji, why is it he said to our class that physical fighting in Taiji is merely one quarter of whole Taiji?

Strange that he says these things or maybe its just that some people chose to hear these things?

[Repulsive Monkey]

Im sorry but if the zenith of your aspirations is to be thet "Taiji is kicking butt" then trully are a poor teacher.

[KenGullette]

Ahhh, someone who disagrees with my point of view calls me a "small minded twit" and other names.

In an earlier post on this board, someone (I believe Brad?) said that he thought the posts on my discussion board were hateful.

Daniel's post is the reason Internet chats devolve into hate-filled ranting and raving. Because people who can't express their ideas rationally, using solid evidence or reasoning skills to back up their claims, resort to terms like "small-minded twit."

When Richard Mooney claimed he could knock people down with his chi, without touching them, I sent him a polite email, telling him I didn't believe he could do it and asked if he would do it to me if I came to Texas. His reply was filled with sarcasm and he quickly began ignoring me. His believers began pelting me with profane emails and posts. The intelligence of some of these guys makes you wonder if they ever attended school one day in their lives.

No valid scientific study has ever shown that chi exists. No valid, double-blind study has shown that you can control outcomes with your mind. If that were the case, people would be able to win regularly at the craps and roulette tables.

Many chi frauds are out there, claiming they can heal people with chi. No study has ever shown that this works beyond any effect that would be expected of a placebo.

Richard Mooney's double-blind study failed miserably. He could not reproduce the powers he claimed to possess.

There are many people, brainwashed by what they've been told and read, desperate to believe that they can harness the miraculous powers of chi and become "somebody," that they refuse to apply reason and critical thinking skills to the issue. Their only recourse is to call people "small minded twits." It's all they can come up with.

[RAF]

Ken:

I think you place far too much faith in science, rationalism and its methodology (its my opinion of your take and we all know what opinions are like!).

Again, science has not "proven" in any sense, what the placebo effect is. Yet it is used as explanation for that which has not been explained. It's a catch-all with the faith that science will some day explain it.

I won't repeat my post, but there are many facets to the methodology (not method) of science. Qi doesn't have to be proven: it's framework only has to yield testable hypotheses that can be empirically validated.

I guess we don't read the literature the same way. Acupuncture which uses meridians and the concept of Qi as its framework, is emprically validated. Validation is not an either/or measurement . Validation is always a degree, a statistical degree and its acceptability threshold is arbitrarily chosen. Whether you accept a correlation coefficienct of .2 or .9 as evidence of validation is based on the subjective judgement of so-called experts, i.e. scientists. This also assumes a statistical normal distribution (which cannot be proved but only asserted).

There are also many rigid self-anointed saviours like Randi who believe it is their mission in life to save people from their own subjectivity. No different than the born-again saviours of Christ or most Western religions or Muslims for that matter. For many, "Science" and its proof has become the new religion of skeptics who refuse to accept the uncertainty and mystery of human existence. I guess we all chose our poison and go on.

The End of Science, (written by a former editor of the Scientific American, New York Times review. My copy is out) really lays out the idea that we have reached the limits of what science can explain for us. With that in mind, I guess all we can do is go on living life and enjoying the subjective experience much as what you are doing with Chen Xiao Wang.

But I have to be honest, when I started in baji/Chen's taiji and even the most "mystical" art of the East, ba gua, qi was seldom discussed and more attention was focused on alignment. The sensation of warm hands and back etc. associated with Qi is also associated with bloodflow and when I taught taiji through our continuing education, I always used a blood flow explanation for the sensations felt in taiji.

I always reserve a bit of skepticism too, especially when a taiji player tells me they can read my aura. There are limits!

[tomasz]

Hello,

Brian Kennedy wrote interesting article about Chi. you can find it on http://ejmas.com/jalt/jaltart_kennedy_0201.htm
Brian Kennedy has trained in a variety of Chinese martial arts since 1976. In younger days he practiced Hung Gar and Choy Li Fut; more recently he has trained in Hsing I and Yi quan. By profession he is an attorney who has lived in Taiwan for about seven years, where he teaches and writes about various aspects of U.S. criminal justice.
I have never met him but i completly agree with his article
it is really worth to read

[greendragon]

Ken, you have misunderstood my comment. I agree Tai Chi is a martial art and i have used it successfully as such. My point is that there is a bigger picture. It did not take someone a lifetime of training to be able to defend one's self or effortlessly land a kickboxer on the floor. This is the beginner's level. There has got to be more than that. Advanced training is all about cultivating and learning to use chi for positive effects such as healing not just negative destructive action. There is a saying in Hsing-I : where the mind goes energy follows.!! But back to the martial side, in your Hsing-i punch, what are you extending to give penetration ? or is there no needle in your cotton ?

[count]

Just wanted to re-enter the discussion on a couple of minor points.

1. Welcome to the dark side tomasz :D Nice to see you on this board. (check out the info on the All baguazhang tournment in NY, it would cool to see you if you could come) That article was posted on the main board yesterday and it is a good read.

2. Ken, you make your point already, only you might be more persuasive if you would stop confusing jing and chi. Most of us know that the stuff the frauds are trying to demonstrate have nothing to do with martial arts at all. Why bother?

3. I keep hearing about all these "new age sissies" and I have never met one. Most of the people I know in the arts realize they are for fighting primarily. All the posters on this board seem to understand that. So where are these "chi huggers"? Is it true hippie girls like guys who do Tai Chi Chuan? If so, what's wrong with "new age tai chi" than? Seems like that could be of some benefit to a healthy, peaceful life.:)

[Water Dragon]

Count, if you e-mail me, I can give you a funny story of a very well respected teacher who was "reprimended" by one of his students for trying to teach Taiji as a martial art. It's a funny story, I just don't want to put the names out in public.

Does it really matter if Qi exists or not? From everything I've seen, if you train hard assuming there is no such thing as Chi, you get all the benefits and feelings associated with Qi. If you train with the idea of Qi, you pretty much end up with nothing. Qi may exist, but I train in the mindset that it does not as that seems to give me the biggest bang for my buck.

[count]

The student reprimended the teacher???

WaterDragon, you have my #@%@!**g e-mail or you can send it through my profile :D

[Brad]

In an earlier post on this board, someone (I believe Brad?) said that he thought the posts on my discussion board were hateful.

Daniel's post is the reason Internet chats devolve into hate-filled ranting and raving. Because people who can't express their ideas rationally, using solid evidence or reasoning skills to back up their claims, resort to terms like "small-minded twit."
I agree. I'd just read a post on your board saying "Buhdists worship a statue" and a few other short coments belittling people who practice religion(I know you didn't personally write them). It's possible to disagree with someone's ideas without making fun of them. Just because someone has a belief that hasn't been proven through western science doesn't automaticlly make them a fraud. I also want people to know that I'm not talking about Mooney. From hearing all the acounts of his behavior when confronted it seems that he knows he can't do what he claims, and is just trying to keep his scam/cult intact.

[Brad]

But I have to be honest, when I started in baji/Chen's taiji and even the most "mystical" art of the East, ba gua, qi was seldom discussed and more attention was focused on alignment. The sensation of warm hands and back etc. associated with Qi is also associated with bloodflow and when I taught taiji through our continuing education, I always used a blood flow explanation for the sensations felt in taiji.
It makes sense that with proper body allignment qi will flow naturaly whether you believe in it or not. If qi exists of course. My first coach didn't really believe in a mystical qi force flowing around the body, and he still had very good Taiji that he could use. I think you can get pretty far in your training by working the mechanics alone without even thinking about the word qi.

[Brad]

Ugh... I think I've got the flu... this sucks :-P
anyway, a bit off topic but...

Ken,
what kind of material is covered in the Chen Xiaowang seminars? He's defenitely one of my favorite martial artists to watch, and would love to attend one. Also how much does it cost?

[Liokault]

Daniel Madar


I think it is a shame, in some ways, that Dan Docherty has turned his back on his own lineage and seeks to promote it under the more commercially viable title of Wu Dang. I also find it interesting that the recently deceased Lineage Holder--contested, naturally-- of Dan's system was one of the most famous practitioners of the "empty force Dan frequently rails against.


What are you talking about?

1/ Chen Tin Hung--Dans teacher is still very much alive.

2/ Before he called it wudang he it was called wutan...same thing.

3/ Chen Tin Hung never was an advocate of emptey force.

Chen Tin Hung is the only lineage that Dan clams and that is far and away enough.

If you have any evidance that master (and he is the one man in the world I feel i should call master) Chen Tin Hung was ever an advocate of empty force I would very much like to hear it!!!!




By chance would you be another half arsed yang stylist?

[Brad]

The point, which you and Brad seem to have missed, is that debating the existence of qi is like debating the existence of god.
What are you talking about? I didn't an opinion about whether qi exists or not.

[greendragon]

I told my yoga teacher there was no such thing as prana and he kicked the yang half of my arse.

[Brad]

Sorry, I didn't even read your post that was being attacked. My point was just that name calling and making fun of people because of different beliefs(scientific or not) aint cool. I've allways felt debate was for education not trying to inflate your ego by tearing everyone else down. Just a general statement not directed at anyone :D I agree that "qi" cannot really be debated very well. The main problem being that lots of people will have completely different definitions for it. So under one defenition it may be perfectly real and natural, while under another completely rediculous. It's just a big fat headache. How can you say something exists or doesn't when you don't even know what it's supposed to be?

[Liokault]

Liokault, It was my understanding that Chen Tin Hung is a practitioner of the Southern Branch of the Wu Jien Quan family of taiji. It was further my understanding that Dan changed the name of the style to Wu Dang, for reasons known only to him. Though, currently, Wu Dang is a big name, I am aware that when he changed it, it was not as widely known.


It is indeed true that Chen Tin Hung was taught though the wu jien quan family line by his uncle but he spent much more time training with Qi Min-xuan who's tai chi was differant.

Also I belive that Chen Tin Hung never gave his tai chi a name and Dan decided that he needed a name to teach it in the UK.

(Not sure on the last bit but Chen Tin Hung deffinatly never gave his own tai chi a name)

[azwingchun]

First of all, I would like to say is that anyone who has paid attention too any of my post, I very seldom get involved in these type of discussions, for the fact that everyone is intitled to thier own belief system regardless of what it is. Secondly, this isn't to discredit anyone or to say that I am correct.

So, to start I would like to say that I am niether a Qi master (yet...LOL) nor a scientist. Which I can probably say is true to all/most on this board. And without being a master of both non of us can argue exactly the view points of both sides.

But anyway these are my viewpoints for what it matters.

As far as does Qi exist? Well, I would have to say yes. I have been studying the martial arts now for almost 29 years, and the existence of Qi is what drew me to the Chinese martial arts, since the discussion was very little or just vague in the karate style arts. Through the journey of martial arts I have not only been taught various ideas of Qi but have also experienced in one sense or another. Both for healing and/or fighting. I have seen miraculous things such as Chinese herbalist heal people who doctors couldn't do a thing for them. I have been healed of such things myself. But I refuse to get into a debate over such things, though I can give many personal experiences if needed.

Is it a placebo effect? Well, I am sure that there is always some sort of placebo effect in many things that we experience throughout life, I guess the basic term word be power of suggestion. I believe that power of suggestion is a very strong and powerfull thing. Though my questions to thoughs who subscribe to this are many. I wonder why when Chinese medicine or for that matter any other source outside of conventional medicine seems to work why is it always said to be the placebo effect? How come when I get a flu shot, then within a couple of weeks I seem to get the flu? How come the placebo effect didn't work then. Come on, I believed that the shot would prevent this. How come when people take vitamins on a daily basis they don't seem to be any healthier than someone who doesn't? Where is the placebo effect when you need it? How come when someone who doesn't buy into alternative medicine goes to doctor after doctor to get treated for an ailment and finds everything to fail, goes to an alternative treatment and then it works? Does the placebo effect only work out of desperation? Again, I am not hounding anyone, but these are very legit questions.

Next, I always here about how science has discredted this or that. Let's get real scientist can't always agree among themselves, so where is the exact science of science? Example, I recently saw a show on the pyramids of Egypt, there are scientist who can't agree on hold old this civilization is. And to be honest the dates given between these torn scientist are not even close to each other. One side says approx 4000 yeras the other say 10-15000 yeas. Well, it is my opinion that if science is so exact, what is the problem? You see this constantly in the Western Science community. There are scientist who have recently stated "hey, there is more to Qi then we thought" and then there are obviously those who don't believe. My next point I would like to bring out is those who believe in science I have a question for you. Do you believe in religion? If so, then in most cases you can't believe in science, mos scientist say the bible is false and that there is no such thing as an afterlife or soul. So, how can you believe in something which discredits your other beliefs? Do you pick and choose what you believe science says is correct to fit your life? Again, this isn't to insult anyone, just hopefully make you think. Scientist have admitted recently that with the technology that they have that they can't discover much more at least out side the realm of the 5 senses. This was a quote in a local newspaper. Hence, this is the problem with science, if it can't be detected with the 5 senses it doesn't exist.

As far as the name calling, well this isn't my cup of tea, I believe we all should be allowed to have our own belief system, it makes the wolrd that much more interesting. Wow, imagine a world where everyone thought exactly like each other. I believe this was called the "Nazi" way.

As far as being a sceptic, well to be honest I am the biggest sceptic that believe in everything from UFO,spirits,bigfoot, etc. I believe anything is possible. Though as many here, I like to see proof from the person who is telling the story. Though on the other hand being a martial artist, I will tell you a story about me. I have been breaking boards since I was a child later moved on to 2 inch bricks layed on top of each other( no spacers). But, i have come to a point in my life where I refuse to break things anymore. People ask me why do I train in soft palm and and/or iron fist if I don't break boards? I tell them it is for personal development. When I refuse to demonstrate, they are like many of you here, they go around telling people that I can't do what I preach. But, I have many people who have witnessed that I can do it and that is good enough for me. Because someone doesn't demonstate, doesn't always mean they can't do it. They may just have come to a very humble time in thier training.

With that said, I hope I haven't offended anyway.....peace.;)

Sorry for the book....LOL.

[tomasz]

"1. Welcome to the dark side tomasz :D Nice to see you on this board. (check out the info on the All baguazhang tournment in NY, it would cool to see you if you could come) That article was posted on the main board yesterday and it is a good read."


Hi Count,
sorry but to go from beijing to NY and start in this competition i will spend a lot of money. this amount of money i can use to live and practice in China about half of year:D
i think that I prefer to be In CHina:D

[tomasz]

Originally posted by Daniel Madar
you can live in china for a half year on 600 bucks? ****. Thats cheaper than thailand.

Then again, I am not flying out from Tokyo either. But then the tournament is around when my son is due.

in China this ticket cost 900 bucks plus 150 tournament fee and minimum 100 bucks per day (you know hotel, food and entertainment) let see 1 week minimum this give me about 1800 bucks

[count]

Just extending a warm "KFO" welcome. In all seriousness, I didn't expect you to travel the thousands of miles and spend the thousands of dollars. I just think it would be fun. Think about it. NYC in the fall with nothing but bagua folks from around the world to play with. Anyway, we are planning a trip there within a year and maybe we'll get a chance to play than.;)

[tomasz]

Originally posted by count
Just extending a warm "KFO" welcome. In all seriousness, I didn't expect you to travel the thousands of miles and spend the thousands of dollars. I just think it would be fun. Think about it. NYC in the fall with nothing but bagua folks from around the world to play with. Anyway, we are planning a trip there within a year and maybe we'll get a chance to play than.;)

you know i think that it might be fun but i think i can learn much more staying here in Beijing
I don't need to see poeple around the world, some Beijing bagua experts are enough for me:D

[Walter Joyce]

Thank you TaiChiBob for mentioning the Heisenberg Experiments, and the rest of your post. That strain of thought has been running through my thinking every time I hear the arguments against qi (although I think of it as the uncertainty principle).

I won't add much more other than I am in the qi is real, not mystical camp of seasoned martial artists who do NOT FOLLOW the theory of li kong jing as a martial application, agee with the validity of emphasizing the martial aspect of any martial art one trains in, and sees the new age tai chi stereotype as a straw dog advanced by qi skeptics.

The ability to use qi martially is attained like any other skill in martial arts, through hard and long PHYSICAL and MENTAL practice of techniques learned from someone who can demonstrate the efficacy of said technique.
I promised I'd be brief.

Walter

[RAF]

Everything is kinda swirling around and there seem to be two or three themes:

#1The whole issue of ling kong jing and whether some guy Mooney can do his tricks (I don't care. Wasn't it Yang Lu Chan saying something about the only men he couldn't defeat had to be made of brass, steel, and ???).

From there it drops into an assertion about #2 whether or not qi exists.

Somewhere acupuncture (whose explanatory mechanism is based on the theory of Qi) is involved.

Acupuncture works on some diseases and not on others as does a lot of Western medicine (double blind studies have been used in acupuncture experiments as well as other designs, less powerful but nonetheless supporting). TCM and its herbs work in some diseases and not in others. I track some research going on at John Hopkins on Asthma and they are experimenting with old Chinese herb mixture to treat the inflammation from asthma and in lab animals, it has been shown to be as effective as inhaled steroids (double blind). People have been taking the medicine successfully in the East for centuries.

Below is an Western example of accepting a medicine that works (double blind studies) but not understanding or knowing its mechanism
________________________________________________
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=594&ncid=751&e=6&u=/nm/20020603/hl_nm/heart_nitroglycerin_1

Secrets of Heart Drug Used for Decades Revealed
Mon Jun 3, 5:32 PM ET
By Merritt McKinney

NEW YORK (Reuters Health) - Nitroglycerin has been used to relieve chest pain for more than a century, but researchers have just now discovered how the drug works. A team at the Howard Hughes Medical Institute at Duke University Medical Center in Durham, North Carolina, has discovered that an enzyme in the power plants of cells is the key to nitroglycerin's effects.


What's more, the scientists have found that long-term use of nitroglycerin slowly depletes the supply of this enzyme, which probably explains why people eventually develop a tolerance to the drug.

In an interview with Reuters Health, Dr. Jonathan S. Stamler, the lead investigator, explained that the cardiovascular benefits of nitroglycerin were discovered by chance more than 100 years ago when employees of the Swedish industrialist Alfred Nobel noticed that their chest pain diminished while working with nitroglycerin to produce dynamite. Since that time, the drug has been used to treat heart failure and a type of heart-related chest pain called angina (news - web sites).
__________________________________________________ __

Its explanatory mechanism is identified through the paradigm of Western science.

However, at some level, the molecular explanations breakdown since all particles have not been identified and even understood (subatomic. One day they got neutrinos measured another day they don't have it measured) and philosophical questions arise as to what is the nature of the universse and utlimately what is the nature of man. Few scientists venture this far and simply stop at the biochemical level and leave the rest to realm of physics.

On the other hand, Qi and TCM starts out with the big questions on the nature of the universe and man and then proceeds into medicine, exercise, world-view, life etc. Its assumptions are laid out and are easily subject to crtique and criticism. Whereas the metaphysical assumptions and methodolgy of science are not well articulated and debated initially because its outcomes and results have been so profound in curing and remedying many diseases. We tend to focus pragmatically on the method rather than the philosophy.

Regardless of whether you believe or don't believe in qi, there will come a point in your martial arts development where the mind will play a key role in reaching higher levels (you will have to dfferentiate whether this is psychosis {poor reality contact} or indeed a higher state of development and enlightenment. Even your "masters" won't be able to help. Your answer will have to come from the inside. In the tradition, the mind and qi will once again become an issue.

For those who believe in hardcore rationalism/materialism they will assert that the mind can ultimately be reduced to a biochemical/biomechanical explanation and so higher levels of TCM are perfectly explainable by Western scientific philosophy. Its unlikely this will ever be proven and so acceptance will be based on the historical success Western science has had with its approach. Hence faith, that is, faith in the methods of Western science will prevail as an unarticulated assumption. You know, the faith found in the article abvoe that rgorous science will often prevail.

Others will express a faith the TCM explanation. The mind and qi and breathing etc..

Either way time, sweat, mental and physical exertion will be required. You won't reach this level sitting around debating about the nature of the universe. Simply thinking won't make it happen. There is a mysticism in bagua that says when you reach the higher states you won't be able to express what you know and it won't matter whether you can express it or not because it won't matter what others think. You will know that you know and I guarantee you won't be posting on this board or any board (kinda tells you what level I am at),

The Randis and the Mooneys (different ends of the spectrum) of the world will entertain us and in between training sessions the debates will provide us with a bit of fun. However, you'll still be left with faith and mystery and condemned to having existence prior to essence (good old Sartre).

Screw the academics and let's get on with life and training. Have a couple of good meals, enjoy the time with your kungfu brothers, and train like hell. Hate to say it but Campbell was right: We don't search for meaning (thats how old academics lounging around in books and libraries, living out of their heads) we search for meaningful experiences (and that requires action, moving, seeing, touching etc.).

This has been great diversion but everyone has already made up their own minds (including mine) and underlying these postings is the old kids fight, "My dad is bigger than yours and he can beat your dad up!" We are just a little more sophisticated and clever in words but not actions.

Good Night!:o

PS: I do occasionally read the Skeptical Inquirer (go to Border's) and its take on TCM will surely get a rise out traditionalists. Give it shot!

[looking_up]

Amen, RAF. And that's a secular amen with just plain good body
mechanics...

:cool:

[Nexus]

You will know that you know and I guarantee you won't be posting on this board or any board (kinda tells you what level I am at),

RAF,

Are you so sure that statement is the truth? If you would not be posting on this board as a subject of having reached a higher level in bagua, then how could anyone who has reached that level in bagua tell you that you would be unable to post on this board?

Let's use an example: At the higher levels of fishing, a fisherman cannot post on a fishing message board. However we somehow know this to be the case, because a fisherman told us? How can the fishermen tell us in person this to be true, if he himself is unable to do so according to the way we think a higher level fisherman's abilities consist of?

[RAF]

Nexus:

My rule of thumb is not to deal with mysticism on an intellectual level and I slipped. In my book, mysticism is to be experienced, not intellectually diced up for serving and I think the author of that translated piece was saying it as plain as day.

I dunno know. What's the purpose of posting other than to serve the ego (mine included)?

Or arguing about the existence or non-existence of Qi?

Ahhhhhh, forget it Nexus. I need to follow my own advice. I have fallen upon my own da qiang.

Later!!!!

PS. The part about myself. Poking fun at what I wrote. Sometimes it can really get piled high and deep.

[Nexus]

Mysticism can only be experienced if you intellectualize it as mysticism. Consider that.

The purpose to posting other than to serve the ego mind is that there is no purpose.

[KenGullette]

__________________________
Regardless of whether you believe or don't believe in qi, there will come a point in your martial arts development where the mind will play a key role in reaching higher levels (you will have to dfferentiate whether this is psychosis {poor reality contact} or indeed a higher state of development and enlightenment. Even your "masters" won't be able to help. Your answer will have to come from the inside. In the tradition, the mind and qi will once again become an issue.
____________________

Well, I believe your mind plays a role in all levels. As you get into higher levels (highly skilled at push hands, for example) the mind and body work together like a good wrestler who can feel the energy of his opponent and quickly take advantage of openings. A beginning wrestler isn't able to do this.

There is a great leap of faith when you equate the use of the mind, the reflexes, the ability to read your opponent -- and then say that it is "chi" that enables you to do this.

High skill in tai chi and martial arts is all about physical practice, just as in any physical endeavor. Chi should be used as a concept to help you develop proper body mechanics, not as scientific fact.

One man's opinion, but a darn good one. :)

[Nexus]

The very same mind which we attribute great t'ai chi to, is the very same mind that we attribute poor t'ai chi to.

[Walter Joyce]

"High skill in tai chi and martial arts is all about physical practice, just as in any physical endeavor. Chi should be used as a concept to help you develop proper body mechanics, not as scientific fact."

First, as I understand it when one is seeking high levels of martial efficacy through tai chi, the qi must be transformed into jing.

Second at the heart of tai chi is peng jing. It can be explained on a biomechanical level.

For support to this proposition I offer the following link. Read through it and ponder if you want to get anything from it. Somethings need to be digested before we can derive any benefit from them.

http://www.neijia.com/media/pengfaq.html

Lastly, it really doesn't matter to me how others choose to practice, or the terms they choose to describe their practice. If you want to call it tai ji, however, you may want to defer to the people who have devoted their lives to the practice. Unless of course you think your opinion on the matter is worth more than theirs.
Good training,
Walter

[KenGullette]

Walter wrote:
Second at the heart of tai chi is peng jing. It can be explained on a biomechanical level.
_____________________________

But Walter, peng jing isn't a real "thing." Peng jing is not an actual form of energy.

Peng jing results from proper body alignment and mechanics -- and lots of practice in being able to maintain it, sense the same thing in your opponent and manipulate it.

Peng jing is a concept. If your body alignment and structure is correct you'll have it. If you practice silk-reeling correctly you'll have it -- then you can put it into the form -- eventually you'll be able to use it in push hands.

Golfers use proper body alignment to hit a perfect drive. They don't call that particular body alignment and the power it creates "drive jing." But I suppose they could if they wanted. Then, golfers a hundred years from now would be arguing over whether "drive jing" was an actual energy present in the body or not.

A baseball player needs good body alignment to hit a home run. They don't say "he has good tater jing." But they could. Is tater jing a real form of energy?

There is no actual energy called "chi" that results in "peng jing" if you use it properly. Proper body mechanics will do the job, and lots of practice.

[Nexus]

Chi does exist in t'ai chi, so does jing, and both can be used to manipulate the t'ai chi.

Chi does not exist in t'ai chi, and neither does jing, and neither needs to be used to manipulate the t'ai chi.

To eliminate one of from being true, we must also eliminate the other. If we are to say that oranges do not exist, we must also say that they do exist for us to talk of their 'non existence'.

[Walter Joyce]

Ken,
We'll have to agree to disagree. While there may be no qi in your universe that can be converted to jing, specifically peng jing, there is in mine. These are not mysterious or magical terms in my universe, but the traditional terms used to describe a real physical phenomenon.

Qi, in this context, is loosely translated as energy or life force, jing is a specific energy that result from transforming the basic energy or qi, through physical practice, into an applicable skill or usable energy, in a martial setting. Peng jing is the specific term for the basic martial energy from which all others flow in tai chi (ward off energy), not to be confused with peng, the technique. No abracadabra, no man behind the curtain. Specific terms for specific phenomenon and practices that lead to specific skills.

I don't agree with your analogies either, as the force released by internal training is different in nature from what a baseball player hits the ball with, or the golfer hits the drive with. There is visible muscle movement involved in these sports activities, while the soft tissue movement used to create peng jing and fa jing are not visible to the eye. Some types of jing are properly compared to a pitcher pitching perhaps, but not the jings of this discussion.

Note, I did NOT say there was no physical movement involved in these activities, just that it is not visible to the eye, especially at higher levels. Also, there is no mystery as to how to achieve this skill, just long hours of physical and mental training.

I have said this before, but you may not have read it. I spent over 2 decades training in other arts, the skills of which can be compared to the sports activities you mentioned. I even had exposure to tai ji players who did not understand peng jing and fa jing, and after meeting and training with them wondered what all the fuss was about when it came to internal arts.

It wasn't until I met someone who had actually been taught true nei gong and had the ability to use these skills that I began to realize that there is indeed a difference between true internal arts and other martial arts. The internal power that has become the source of legend is real, and is achieved by nei gong training. I also found that it required a complete paradigm shift as to my understanding about the generation of physical power, and a complete shift in my training. I believe it is worth the effort I am undertaking in my current training, as I am still in the "investing in loss" phase. My teachers, however, possess these skills.

I am not a "health guy" "earthy crunchy type" "flake" or the last of the hippies. I am, and my teachers are pragmatic people firmly rooted in reality. I'll continue to trust and rely on my experience, and my teachers, as I'm sure you will rely upon yours as well. Should I need help in understanding the nature of things, I'll let you know.
Good training,
Walter

[Nexus]

The internal power that has become the source of legend is real, and is achieved by nei gong training.

Internal power comes from emptiness. That emptiness may be achieved through nei gong training, or it may be achieved through peeling oranges and potatos.

Eat the fruits of your labor (!) =)

[Walter Joyce]

I'm not sure I agree with you Nexus. Enlightenment perhaps(or emptiness if you prefer), peng jing and fa jing skills, I don't think so. But if it works for you, more power to you.
I'll stick to nei gong personally. Good peeling,
Walter

[Nexus]

How many layers has your nei gong peeled off so far?

[KenGullette]

Nexus,
I'm sure you're a great guy. But I can't figure out what world you're living in. :) The way you speak strikes me as exactly the sort of person who has dragged down the image of tai chi in the world of martial arts. Sort of a self-styled priest-type who probably couldn't use tai chi to fight his way through a pack of girl scouts. There are a lot of people like that in American tai chi today. That's one of our problems.

Walter, I agree about agreeing to disagree. :))

Convincing a believer that chi is a concept, not a reality, is like convincing a Born-Again Christian that Jesus might not really have been the son of God. It can't be done.

My goal is to get people to think a little bit and not believe something just because a "master" (who is probably not one) says it's true, or because it's written in a book or Kung Fu/Qigong magazine (after all, in the latest issue, Gene Ching says he believes in no-touch knockouts).

You post good arguments, though, and I appreciate the discussion. Nexus could learn a little from you. Emptiness, indeed. Sheesh.

[Liokault]

I can not belive this thread is still going on.

One thing that has come out of it is that every one who thinks that "chi" is real has a very differant idea as to what it is. No one has yet made me change my mind as to what I think chi is but i have heard some guys come close to agreeing with me.

I think that jing is very differant to chi. I use jing hundereds of times in every class I go to and every time I train.

[Nexus]

Ken,

You say that people waterring down t'ai chi is one of our problems. Where do problems come from?

[greendragon]

Ken, first of all, remember when you wondered why someone called you "hateful" ? your repeated use of the word "masters" in quotations reveals that you do not respect your teachers or those of others. What silk have you been reeling ? and what NEXUS was saying is simple yin/yang : how can there be 'no chi' without 'chi' basic zen. Walter, I agree with you. the tradition teaches chi preceeds jing. you could concievably work some fa jing into your swing. hey that rhymes,

[greendragon]

I wasn't referring to ching as it turns to shen,etc. maybe there's a spelling or romanization problem jin(g) as in fa jing (silent g?), a physical (li) action combined with chi initiated with yi. so i don't disagree, but the chi developed in Taoist meditation is the same energy as chi in MA (in my opinion), they just try to transmute it instead of use it. Taoist traditions are at the root of qi gong, example: the secret of the golden flower.

[dezhen2001]

Both 'Jing' are correct, and both use a different tone and character. Hence they are different words, just written the same way using Pinyin Romanization. A clear distinction between the 2 is good, but nothing that needs to be argued by quoting a chinese dictionary (there are many ways or writing the same word in english romanization) :D

I think most of the people here know the difference anyway, as everyone seems to have experience in IMA :)

david

[Walter Joyce]

Ken,
The stimulus for thought is rarely a bad thing. I don't rely on anyones mere words for anything that forms tha basis of my training, but like I said earlier, demonstrable effiecient technique that they can teach through a prescribed method catches my attention. A quick question: Can western science truly explain that which animates us? Your answer will give me something to ponder.
I liked your earlier posts wujidude, but I think your latest was a bit harsh. Not that it matters to you probably, but I have seen jin and jing used interchangeably, and recently added the "g" to the word after someone else corrected my spelling, although less caustically than you. Oh well, sticks and stones.
Good training,
Walter

[RAF]

I think that Ken raises a very interesting point about watering down taijiquan.

If qi [as accepted, defined, and worked with in the traditional training of the martial art of taijiquan] is eliminated or altered to fit "Western" scientific views, then is this "redefinition or elimination" also watering down the traditional art of taijiquan? Have we lost something essential to its nature?

I think that the proponents are saying that qi is simply a marker for alignment, at best, or simply an outdated term. But I am not sure the world view of the masters of the past would experience and train in taijiquan the same if they didn't not embody their view and definition of qi.

I have heard a new age proponent argue that the martial aspect has outgrown its usefulness in today's society.

Afterall you have the gun, a law enforcment system or any other simple alternative defense system to substitute. You don't have to train like a master to learn to fight for defensive purposes (couple of kicks, punches, and blocks.). If kicking butts is your objective, you can do it by learning 3 or 4 good techniques, conditioning yourself and going on your merry way. There is no reason to embrace a system that may take years to master. Its inefficient.. Why bother?

How about if we look at it this way. Screw the martial arts applications. You know, the martial art of taijiquan has outlived its usefulness and nothing is harmed by fitting it into the needs of modern society. Taiji must evolve and become more than a tool for feudal society. Stress reduction is more important than learning to punch. Hell, its an art form, make it into a dance. It belongs to humanity. Lets celebrate and become more inclusive rather than exclusive. Al Huang, Embrace the Tiger, Return to the Mountain, elimianated the quan from taiji so that his practice of the art became more encompassing, more universal? How far off is that from Feng Zhi Qiang's reinterpretation of Chen shi taijiquan? Was that a watering down of the art or simply an update and elimination of old feudal thinking?

Maybe to be true to the art and not water it down, we have to pretend that Qi is indeed a real entity that has real properties manifested in the physical. Cognitive pschology scientifically has shown that the way we think significantly affects our performance (self-efficacy expectations).

Otherwise, why is it watering-down to eliminate the fighting component and not watering it down to eliminate the traditional understanding and employment of Qi?

Who wants to draw the line? ;)

[Walter Joyce]

I think both the removal of martial application and the elimination of the concept of qi (chi chee ki whatever :D ) are a watering down. Like all dilution, it reduces the strength and the essence of that which is being diluted.

As such, I am against it. I came to tai ji and nei jia for its essence, not so that someone could strip that essence away so that I could find it easier to comprehend.

Please believe me when I say that this is not an ad hominem, but I am reminded of the idea that one should not let some one of lesser intelligence convey the words or ideas of a great mind, because in the act of translation, the lesser intellect will of necessity transform the ideas of the greater intellect into concepts easily comprehended by the lesser, and in the process the essence is lost.

The comprehension of ideas or concepts beyond our ken requires effort and time, sometimes even that is not enough. I for one, have realized when something is beyond my comprehension in the past. I hope that more often than not I resisted the urge to argue that because it was beyond my comprehension, it was not a valid concept. I am not defending the charlatans in the IMA community, just pointing out that there is real knowledge to be had.

I will resist the urge to add disclaimers beyond that which I have included.
Good training,
Walter
p.s. I guess I drew the line, my personal one at least.

[Nexus]

RAF,

You say that taking qi out of tai chi chuan waters it down. Tai chi chuan is waterred down because the concept of chi is used. What makes you think that the founder of tai chi chuan cared about qi at all? Only power hungry fools care about cultivating and saving.

[Walter Joyce]

Nexus,
Just curious, who exactly was the founder of tai ji? And how do you know what he cared about? And could you cite your sources?
Just curious,
Walter

[Nexus]

You say you are curious, but you are actually contriving. Why do you wan't sources, did the founder of tai chi need them?

[RAF]

Nexus:

I accept Chen Wang Ting as the founder of taijiquan, not taiji. Taiji is not a martial arts but a way early Chinese came view the world. That's my line and Chen Wang Ting incorporated jingluo as part of his system. I fall along the same lines as Walter Joyce but I don't lose sleep over whether Qi exists or doesn't exist (this is THE Great Escape escape from having to grade papers!).

Qi is a embedded in the Chinese world view. Communism couldn't erase it. That is a historical fact not theory or speculation. In fact, I would speculate that the "founder" embraced the concept of Qi long before he (not she) ever started their martial arts training.

I pose the qi issue as a rhetorical question. You, of all people, should know there is no objective answer. Don't you think its time for you to "draw YOUR line"? Where do you stand?

Now, I am curious!

Who draws the line as to what is or is not watered-down? How do you draw your line? Why would you think the founder didn't? :eek:

[Nexus]

You too are curious because you are contriving. To contrive to envy, you think I have something you do not have and so you ask me to a draw a line so you can see a picture of something that does not exist.

If you would like to question me outside of the context of this thread then you can email me: beng@bored.com

If however you have a point to prove to those who read this thread you can respond to this post.

[Walter Joyce]

Although I have been losing sleep, I don't think "THE Great QI Debate" is the root of it. I am escaping from months of document review by posting here.
Walter
:cool:
p.s. I truly was curious... my take is that there was no "one" founder of tai ji, but many contributors. Further, tai ji is both a world view (from the wuji came the tai ji) and a martial art, depending on the context.

[Walter Joyce]

Although I have been losing sleep, I don't think "THE Great QI Debate" is the root of it. I am escaping from months of document review by posting here.
Walter
:cool:
p.s. I truly was curious (like I need someone from the net to tell me my motives). My take is that there was no "one" founder of tai ji, but many contributors. Further, tai ji is both a world view (from the wuji came the tai ji) and a martial art, depending on the context.

[RAF]

Nahhhhh Nexus, ya take yourself too seriously. One draws a line because they stand for something or believe in something and have the courage to take the heat (or flexibility to make some changes). You drew a very nice line. You reveal more than you think.

Relax and have a beer or a cup of tea.

Oh, yeah, they have a new Tai Chi Farm website:

TaiChiFarm.org
:o ;) :o

[Nexus]

RAF,

For someone who claims to study the teachings of the Tao, you insist upon blaming me for your own unsettlement. You say that I take myself too seriously, when in fact it is you who takes yourself too seriously. Why else would you have said that to me?

[RAF]

And why would you even bother to reply?:)

[Nexus]

What are you trying to ask me?

[RAF]

What are you trying to say?:confused:

[Nexus]

I'm not trying to say anything you idiot, you missed the entire point when decided to respond to me in the first place.

[RAF]

Okay, you win!:D

[Nexus]

No you are wrong, I am the one who lost.

This is the last post I will respond to you with RAF. If you want to speak further then I once again will ask you to email me if you have any questions, comments or insights: beng@bored.com

[crumble]

god realm?

[Nexus]

LOL! If there were such a thing as a God realm then how could we know about it?

[crumble]

because the god realizes he has to change his underwear?

{i'm editing...}

or the god is thinking about changing his underwear, knowing gods aren't supposed to and at that moment: god realm?

[Nexus]

Crumble,

God's do not wear underwear for only man has things to hide. What happens to a man when he removes his underwear?

[Nexus]

RAF,

I have shown you nothing new and have told you nothing that you did not already know. The reason you are thanking me is because you looked into yourself and decided you wanted to see the truth. In reality, it is you that you should be thanking.

[greendragon]

maybe the reality guys were right all along ...

[Volcano Admim]

Chen teacher that doesnt belive in chi, 5 words:

****, he must really SUCK

[Nexus]

Exactly, how could anyone who doesn't believe in chi be good at anything!

[Walter Joyce]

Pity the thread has slipped to this level. Reality guys? We could use them here.
Good training,
Walter

[Nexus]

The only thing that slips is an ignorant man who doesn't watch where he is going.

[Walter Joyce]

I rarely do this, but: "The only thing that slips is an ignorant man who doesn't watch where he is going." Nexus.
Really?
gears don't slip?
Time doesn't slip away?
an object doesn't slip from your grasp?
Shall I continue?
A person cannot slip his foot into his slipper?
One need not slip the bounds of this earth to touch the clouds?
When speaking categorically, one should exercise caution, lest the wrong words slip from his mouth.
Many has been the slip between lips and tongue that has left a man with his world undone.
Your mystical magical taoist rants make wish someone would slip me a mickey.
Perhaps I should slip you onto my ignore list and save us both the time.
I think I shall slip away now,
Walter
p.s.
I left off a favorite,
I'm not sure which I like better, when my wife slips her nightie on, or when she slips it off. Have a good weekend.

[looking_up]

What's wrong with qi=energy?

Surely we can all believe that our brains and our bodies produce
energy. (That's how we power the Matrix...). What happens
when one learns to focus this energy and move it around at will?
What's wrong with the idea that the mind is the part that
commands this focused energy? Energy can be stored or used
up. Everyone has had the experience of feeling energized or
feeling drained. Nothing mystical here...

...so let's say qi is good body alignment. But how do we learn
to have proper body alignment? What sort of feedback
mechanism is there so that one can gradually learn to assume a
good, efficient posture? I'm sure you experienced martial artists
would agree that proper posture feels good. Whoa!!! "feels"!!!
That sounds gay! It can't be right! But without these "feelings"
(such as those felt through zhan zhuang) we can't learn to
attain proper alignment/posture. So there is "something" to
feel...

...someone say fluidity? OK, let's think about that. When power
is properly generated from the ground and transmitted through
the frame to the hands, it is an extremely fluid transmission of
power and it "feels" as such. What is flowing? Nerve impulses?
The brain's energy? Internal pressure in the body? Something
seems to flow, and when it does, it produces that awesome
power that we all dig in our own way. Maybe the ancients just
decided to say, "Hell, qi represents all of this stuff and more,
and it's a one syllable word..." A little metaphor can go a _long_
way.

In any case, the "classics" work, that is, they are successful as
vehicles for transmitting complicated subjects to future martial
artists. And if it weren't for the idea of qi, most of us would not
be learning the arts we learn and then we couldn't argue about
anything so rich and complex.

[Nexus]

Walter,

You have just witnessed your own pity turn into happiness. For that you should be fully happy, for you were able to take one emotion and turn it into another. Just as you can now take the emotion of happiness you felt while trying to prove your point to me, and turn it into the emotion of anger when you try to prove your next point to me.

[Walter Joyce]

I try to avoid anger whenever possible. Might you do the same with condecension? :cool:

[Nexus]

Indeed I am lonely up here, care to visit?

[Walter Joyce]

Thanks for the tip wuji, I apprciate the advice of those who have been around anything longer than me. :)
Have a good weekend all,
Walter

[Nexus]

Wuji,

Susan told me to tell you that she loves the candles you gave her.

[Walter Joyce]

Now that guy knows how to establish a ground path, truly becoming one with the earth.:cool:

[Nexus]

That video has been around for years and I enjoy watching it every time I see it! =)