Looks like a nice American Kenpo site

[rogue]

Finally I can understand what the AK guys are talking about.

Kempo techniques by belt (http://www.bakerfamily4.net/kenpo/tech.htm)

Even has some animated gifs.

[dnc101]

A few years ago my brother and me decided to recreate and practice American Kenpo based on what he'd learned 13 years before. We turned to a lot of sources to jar his memory, one being the internet. Figuring the moves out from written sources was a good exercise, but it had its' pitfalls. There tend to be a lot of errors (right and left or direction are the most common), and sometimes there are subtlties that are hard to explain on paper. We finally decided to get professional help in the form of qualified instruction. We travel well over 120 miles one way for this, but I've never regretted doing it. Some of the stuff that I'd thrown out as impractical turned out to be really effective when shown how to do it correctly.

If you are just looking at this to improve your understanding you may get a lot out of it. But if you are going to try to use some of it, I'd get help.

[JWTAYLOR]

We finally decided to get professional help in the form of qualified instruction.

Pay attention to this man. One day, he will rule us all.

JWT

[rogue]

JWT, how were the explanations? I thought it was good to see what the heck alertnating maces was. You Kenpo guys tawk funny.

[JWTAYLOR]

Well, it's not exactly correct, and if you do it you'll see why, but it's pretty close.

BTW, Alternating Maces is the second technique anyone learns in our class, and it's one of the VERY few actual techniques I've done in the real world.

I'll compare theirs and ours below.
I'll put my comments in ().

ALTERNATING MACES

Defense against a two handed push
(actually, it works against a push below your neck. If someone were pushing your head this one doesn't work so well.)

Step back with your left foot into a right Neutral Bow while doing a right Inward Block. (

(try it like that. It won't work. You throw that inward block and their head stays up, and you haven't redirected both hands. At least one hand will still plow into you like this. It's a beginners mistake. In the really real world, with someone pushing hard, you have to cover both of their hand in and DOWN. So you step back and strart that inward block, but then it has to go DOWN, so that your forearm is next to your waist, and parrallel to the floor. That puts the person's head and shoulders moving DOWN and to your left hip. If they are pushing through with thier body, the technique can be over right there, as they are likely to fall down next to you.)

Do a left Vertical Thrust punch to attackers face while turning into a right Forward Bow.
(We do this with a punch to the solar plexus. The reason is simple. This is the first movement that actually comes into direct contact with them and disrupts their forward movement. Moreover, it's done when they are pretty close. Hit someone in the head when they are moving in fast and close with their whole body and won't stop their momemtum. Even if the punch is good, half of the time their body falls into you. And that's not good. Punch them hard, in the solar plexus while you have thier body moving down from that parry and you are much less likely to slip off your target and more likely to stop their forward motion.)

Slide your left hand down to check attackers arms as you do a right Back Knuckle to the right side of attackers face and cover out.
(The same except to say that we put the back knuckle up and into the eye socket/bridge of the nose. The idea here is that they are moving down from your previous parry and punch, so their head will be in the process of looking down. As the head goes down, meet it with that fist comming up for an opposing forces effect. And make sure you are rotating back into a neutral bow when you throw the back knuckle.)

JWT

[dnc101]

JWT- thanks, but I'm in no present danger of ruling anyone.

Your comments on Alternating Maces are a good example of those nuances I was talking about. This is a pure control move- hit his arms too hard with the block and you'll throw them out too far, only to have a fist or elbow orbit back toward your head. We put the block up, then let the stance change push it out toward his opposite shoulder. Then let your arm fall across both of his arms, the hand cranes his right wrist, and both arms are checked to waist level as we punch over the check to the solar plexus. Pretty much the same as you.

This one also points out the need to work up the attacks to street force. Dealing with a full force push is, as you pointed out, a lot different than working on someones outstretched arms. Another point you touched on is one that is often misunderstood about Kenpo, and that is that these techniques are not meant to be run in their entirety as practiced. It isn't an "If he does this, you do that" approach. The techniques teach us to move, to look ahead, and to work off his reactions. They are also the physical vehicle through which we learn the principles and how to apply them. That is another reason a good, knowlegable instructor is worth finding- he can keep you on the right track in understandig what you're doing. Sometimes he may point you in the right direction, others (though I'm loathe to admit it) he may say I'm wrong.

I went and took a better look at that site. It is pretty good, although they do things a little different than we do. I'm guessing he might be Tracey based, but I don't know that. I may go back there and spend some time reading; maybe get a different perspective on things.

[MaFuYee]

those are actual technique names?? ....

uh, excuse me, but.... BWAHAHAHHAHAAA!!!

at least some of us have excuses; our arts are chinese, and they like that poetic flowery stuff.

this sounds like the guy who made the style was some 14 year old dungeons and dragons freak.

... huh huh... 'gift of destruction' ....

BWAHAHAHAAHAAA!!!!

:D

and, the techniques i saw sucked big goat balls.

[JWTAYLOR]

Of course, "fan through back" makes perfect sense.

The names have a pretty good reason. Body parts have names, and motions have names. So, once you learn the vocabulary, you can know what the technique is without even knowing the technique.

For instance, let's say I heard a TTC guy refer to "fair lady plays the lute", I would never be able to figure out what that meant unless I had been taught that specific move, even if I knew all of the other moves and names in the form.

With American Kenpo, if some said, as in your example, Gift of Destruction, I know that it's going to be a technique involving a handshake and a limb destruction, most likely the elbow. Or, if they said, Gift in Return, I'd know that it involves a handshake (or any handhold) and that the motion I perform would return that hand back into the attacker. Most of the techniques work that way. It makes it easy to remember and to converse with other practitioners.

Oh, and if you don't know what your talking about, keep your mouth shut. You won't seem quite so ignorant.

JWT

[Water Dragon]

Makes a lot of sense. Still sounds funny though :D

[TenTigers]

I believe many of those names were created by James Ibrao, not sure though. Since there is a strong relationship between (old) kenpo and Hung-Ga, we also practice many of these techniques-but not the beginner techs, I like to take them to finality from day one. Also, I have found that if the techs are performed closer to the forms, they are alot more effective, and 'nastier' too. William Chow's methods have been a huge influence on the way I teach Hung-Ga. Insted of simply extracting technique and applications, we continue these and take them to their finality-meaning, one technique sets up the next, and the next, into the takedown. This way a student learns to use his gung-fu against real attacks, holds, etc.

[MaFuYee]

BWAAHAHAAAHAHAAHA!!! :D

oh please don't use your "twirling wings" on me! or your "twisted twig"... i promise i won't mock your system no more! - i would hate for you to do the 'dance of death', followed by a 'menacing twirl', only to end with a 'prance of the tiger'... ;)

hahahahhaa!!!!

HEY-SOOS! :p - was ed parker a big D&D fan?
it's ok if he was... i liked it too, when i was in elementary school.

oh SNAP! that was too funny...

i never knew kempo was such a silly art. - i mean, everyone is used to the chinese names by now. - which i do find to be a bit more poetic than necessary; but, we've had many years to get over the initial silliness of it all.

personally, i would be more offended by the fact that i said the techniqes sucked big goat balls, than the fact i was laughing at the names of the techniques. :eek:

[JWTAYLOR]

Lots of people have come up with the names, and the names are still changing. If you look at the older "Chinese" Kenpo techniques they'll be named things that don't fit the formula, but the newer stuff is the same technique with a different name that fits better.

AK is constantly being fu(ked with. Some good, some bad.

And yes, they do sound funny, but they serve a purpose.

JWT

[MaFuYee]

hey JW, don't take it too hard. - i was caught unawares...

but, the naming convention thing makes sense, i guess...

of course, it would have made more sense to just name things, "handshake, limb destruction"...

but, i guess that's what happens when something is derrived from a chinese art. - the japanese are much more practical when it comes to naming things.

[JWTAYLOR]

I admit, we have some pretty d@mn funny names. If I could come up with anything better, I would. Hell, I even think the term "American Kenpo" is innapropriate.


Hey, wait a minute, did you actually write "oh SNAP"?

JWT

[Gabriel]

Yep he did....

I couldn't care less about the names, as long as the techniques work, you've got yourself an art. :D

[rogue]

The guy included a list of terminology. (http://www.bakerfamily4.net/kenpo/terms.htm)
I hope you don't think I was implying that you could learn the art from the sight, I just liked it because I now know what a "mace" is.

Good anaylysis JWT. Some of the techniques are close to what we do, we just don't have any names for them.

A question, do you get a 15th degree black belt if you come up with a good name for something?:D

Kudos to Baker for putting a lot of work into his site.

[JWTAYLOR]

Yeah, but they downgraded it to 14th degree red stripe when they found out I named a grappling technique "old priest visits the boys' home".

JWT

[dnc101]

That was rude..., butt funny!