The Implied Meaning of Postures

[MaFuYee]

http://yangtcc.com/other/fan2.jpg

take a look at this picture. - i got it from daniel weng's shuai chiao book.

this is the exact application i was taught for tai chi's "Fan through back".

most people know up to (fig 4) - however, it is my observation that there are almost always implied meanings to all the postures, that are left out of the form. - i think, if you want to NOT teach someone, the way to do it is to show them the first step, and fail to mention that there is more to it. - and that way, you can openly teach the form, while still keeping the teachings a secret. - anyone well versed in martial arts, upon seeing the first posture, will understand what is implied, and what it is leading up to.

the transition from (fig 4) to (fig 5) entails the use of circular footwork(dragon stance/steal step/bagua), that is practically nowhere to be found in the tai chi form, yet is definitely an integral part of tai chi. - i guess that's just one of the things that they conveniently never teach you, so you'll never really understand the art.

- is this such a big secret? - has no one ever seen this application before? - well... duh, this is a pretty common app in many ma's... i'm not showing anything groundbreaking or revolutionary... this things been used for probably thousands of years. (if the history of shuai chiao is correct.)

what i want to know, is WHY, over 90% of tai chi folks are clueless to this app? - and when will that begin to change?

[Water Dragon]

Becuase Ma, only YOU have the real Taijiquan. Everyone else is a fake and if they don't study through YOU exact lineage, following YOUR exact interpretations, they are a fake.

[Merryprankster]

Ma Fu Yee

WTF are you smoking?! Simple backstep into the throw. It's just like an OPENLY TAUGHT Seio Nage or Flying Mare.

KEEEEERIST! Secret Knowledge my ass.

[Shadow Dragon]

MaFuYee.

I learned a few different applications of "Fan joined through the back".

The one you showed here is similar to a Ba Gua application I learned.

Tai Chi has no fixed application for each posture and most posture have atleast 3 or more applications.

Peace.

[MaFuYee]

water dragon;
feeling a little defensive, are we??

merryp;

...this is a pretty common app in many ma's...this things been used for probably thousands of years...
please try to follow what i am saying. - i'm not saying this is some super secret, never before revealed snit...

over the years, just about EVERY tai chi article i've ever read, that included martial apps, included the app for "fan..." - up to and including only the first step, and it ends there. - i feel that to say that that is the end of the technique, is incorrect. - i have almost never seen anyone present a 'legitimate' application for practically ANY tai chi posture, EVER.

now, that might be because of magazine politics, as rovere once suggested; but, judging from the incredible number of absolutely horrendous applications i've seen poeple trying to pass off as tai chi; it is my conclusion, that many people out there have no clue.

- yes, that technique is openly taught in say, judo, or wrestling... but, notice you didn't say "oh... that? - that's 'fan through back'..."

shadowd;
that's nice.

[Daredevil]

I've been taught that application, so can't comment on (hehe) what's so mystical about it. I always thought it was cool due to the use of the koupu (did I get that right? the step -- commonly seen in bagua -- with feet pointed inwards and I know I just did it huge unjustice with this description), to switch directions. That piece of footwork is pure genius.

Otherwise, personally I consider that a bit risky application, but in a right situation .. why not?

Or maybe I'm at a different movement in the series (I'm talking about the Chen 24 -- non-shortened). Anyhow, the app is there. The beauty of taijiquan (I'd say any art on a high level ..) -- it's all just movement. Make of it what you will.

[Merryprankster]

Why DON'T they have any clue? Was knowledge withheld? If it WAS, that's a **** poor excuse for a "secret."

[Daredevil]

I think this is more an outburst of one man's angst at a perceived lack of actual skill in Taijiquan exponents. :)

He may be right, but I don't have any statistics or such on it. My -impression- is that a lot of Taiji folks have very little practical skills at applications. Some folks may even be rather unconcerned about them.

Old topic. Can we bring something new into this? Well, at least we are sort of discussion an application ...

I wonder if the trend (non-martial Taiji) is being reversed, or is it just that these boards get a lot of folks who a) talk like they are getting the good stuff and/or b) are getting the good stuff?


Just wondering.

[greendragon]

Ma, all forms including Tai Chi can be interpreted for shuai jiao or grappling applications. That is the beauty of forms.

[Water Dragon]

Guess I was a little curt. Sorry.

Let me refrase: It's a good app, but it's not THE app. I was never shown that particular app for that posture. I was shown a nice jab cross combo, a throat seize, and a neck twisting throw similar to Diagonal Cut off the posture though.

I was taught the same app you are describing, but I was taught it using Needles at Sea Bottom and another throw that is very similar app from Embrace Tiger and Push the Mountain.

The point is, there's a lot of good stuff out there if you know what to look for (and I think you do) Don't get so enthused about one teachers interpretation of the art that you miss all the rest.

[Gabriel]

Hahaha... I have many good secrets ;)

Woodcutter binds the wood!

Send the Devil to heaven!

Old man promoted to General!

Lion Shakes its head

Push boat to follow the stream!!

And finally, White ape worships the Buddha!!!

With these fierce rending techniques all must tremble before me, for I know the only "true" application of these moves. Everyone else is paper machete to my chainsaw!!! Gwahahahaha... :rolleyes:

Gabriel

[No_Know]

From Yang 24 I could see break left hand grab; elbow to side of chest or upper ribs; twist the arm, control the shoulder; arm behind back; control the arm (high); cover while hitting the side or the back of the ribs...but that throw seems too anti yin/yang to be valid initial consideration at the making of that part of the form.

[MaFuYee]

merryp;

Why DON'T they have any clue? Was knowledge withheld? If it WAS, that's a **** poor excuse for a "secret."

actually, if knowledge is withheld, that's kinda the definition of 'secret'. - isn't it? - or am i missing the sarcasm?? (you're pretty funny; if you are in fact, trying to be funny!)

dared;
just say it! - tai chi guys are all a bunch of marys. (*gen.)

you don't have to try and -soften- it up, and try and be all p.c. about it. * beatch!

i'm not trying to say that what i learned is so great or anything. - or, that that is the -only- application. - obviously there are others. - but, if we were to liken "fan.." to the letter 'A', i think this app, would be the equivalent of 'Apple'. - many tai chi guys don't seem to know how to spell. - if you know what i mean. - and, some can only speak gibberish, and think they're reciting shakespeare.

but, to the neophyte tcp, trying to learn something that may be as foreign to them, as vogon is to an african bushman. -- well, you could probably speak in gibberish, and convince an african bushman that you knew how to speak vogon. - only, don't expect them to become world renown vogon poets, no matter how long you teach them. - and don't expect someone who speaks a smidge of vogon to have any respect for a babbling idiot, claiming to speak vogon.

...

or is it, - you don't want to teach them how to speak vogon, for it is a language too precious, and too deadly for the avg. bushman, but, maybe one day, one (or a thousand) of your bushman students (who are convinced that they're a regular jack karouac) starts teaching other bushmen to speak vogon... and no one can understand each other, because every syllable can have INFINITE meanings, and every word can be said INFINITE ways... would the bushmen be so vain, as to pretend that they could communicate intelligibly to one another? - while walking around naked, babbling unintelligibly to each other??

waterd;
what i am saying, is that if a person can only show you (fig 4), and nothing more... as the app. for 'fan..'; then the sux donkey pole.

i don't see the jab cross combo, but, the throat thing, and the neck twising throw make fine sense to me. - a person doesn't have to know every single word in a language; they just have to know a buch of commonly used ones. - they don't have to be able to come up with new words at any given moment - esp. not while under the threat of imminent an gift of destruction and bisexual maces, dressed in kimono's. - but they should at least know how to respond to, "hi, how's it going?"... but, if all you can ever say, is "fine." you can hardly call that person 'fluent'.

gabriel;
yo! - if i were the head of the kempo org. - i would elect you, 'prancing monkey spanker'. - the one privlidged to rename all the kempo techniques.

* i like the 'send the devil to heaven' one. - much better than 99.9% of the names i saw on that site.

know no;
exqueeze me? baking powder?

[Gabriel]

Yo Yo! Actually, those are all real names for Na techniques ;)

Just thought you should know.

[Merryprankster]

Ma--my point is that it's not much of a secret... more like an "open secret." If any wrestler or Judoka could recognize a possible entry into the application you described, then it's not a very good secret.

[No_Know]

The exact application you were taught for T'ai Chi Ch'uan's "Fan through back" seems to bend too much at the waist to be a T'ai Chi Ch'uan application.

[Merryprankster]

Yeah, but if you half-hip the entry and reap the leg slightly, they'll go over well enough without the deep bend.

[No_Know]

Half-hipping would take a different initial grab. MaFuYee compared this Shuai Chiao technique as an application for a section of a T'ai Chi Ch'uan form. So on topic, one has to keep the grab move of figure 4. Which would make your half-hip and slight reap not doable without too much to be T'ai Chi Ch'uan.

[Merryprankster]

No it wouldn't take a different initial grab if the initial grab is the same one demonstrated in the links given.

It would mean you don't have to come as far round on the backstep---and if that makes it not Tai Chi, I don't know what to say.

I happen not to like full hip throws, so I know this can be done. The trick is to "dump," them off your hip rather than letting them fall off of it. You just pull a little harder and at an angle with the shoulder instead of straight over. Reaping the leg is extra, and done only once the balance is stolen forward. Otherwise, you have to switch to stealing the balance to the near side back corner for a hop-around type O Soto Gari looking thing.

You have to bump them HARD with the half-hip though, and break the balance really well for this to work....

The guy in the picture is coming all the round to an OUTSIDE "flying mare" type throw, but you don't have to come that far, simply put.

[No_Know]

For what you're saying, would the throw happen on your left or on your right?

[Merryprankster]

I would be loaded on the right hip, but the throw would be executed to my left.

You know, I just re-examined the entry, and I'm not sure you could pull the half-hip version off without the gi.

So you might be right :)

[MaFuYee]

merryp;
the technique itself is NOT a "secret"; however, how many years should one have to study tai chi before learning this, pretty basic technique?

sad to say, i know that most tai chi people that i personally have run across usually couldn't show me anything more than the type of carp they print in kf mags. - even people who have been dedicatedly studying for over 10 years, at a school with "good" lineage. (VERY well known)

if you've ever seen a certain video put out by a VERY famous internal stylist (with tremendous ROOT) - you will see absolute nonsense with a heavy dosage of mystic mumbo jumbo that he calls 'tai chi'.

IN OTHER WORDS: i am saying there is a problem with many tai chi schools out there. - not that this is the ultimate mack daddy technique of techniques, or, that this is the only interpretation; but, this is one correct app.

no know;
it is executed too fast, and you hit the guy too hard for it to be tai chi too. *pppbbbbbttt*

merryp again;
the pics differ slightly from actual usage. - the pics show how it is done against a partner. - you would actually only be grabbing him by the wrist.

first it's a block and STRIKE. (very important - and this is where it's important to have iron palm.) next, you use circular footwork to get BEHIND the person. - back to back. - then just holding his wrist, you hyperextend his elbow on your shoulder, as you flip him over your back; using your hips to really bump him in an upwards direction to catapult him over, and have him land on his head/neck. - the idea is also to use the pain from the hyperextended elbow to assist in the throw, as the person will WANT to go 'up' to relieve the pain put on his elbow.

[Merryprankster]

All the way around?

Ok. I officially will remove myself from this thread as I have no idea about this at all :)

I don't know what I'm talking about relative to this sort of movement. :D

[No_Know]

"take a look at this picture. - i got it from daniel weng's shuai chiao book.

this is the exact application i was taught for tai chi's "Fan through back". "

Yet you recently told to me: "no know;
it is executed too fast, and you hit the guy too hard for it to be tai chi too. *pppbbbbbttt* " You started this indicating that you saw something in T'ai Chi Ch'uan. Then you say the technique you associated with T'ai Chi Chuan is not T'ai Chi Ch'uan. That Kind of makes your words empty.


" what i want to know, is WHY, over 90% of tai chi folks are clueless to this app? - and when will that begin to change?"

Perhaps because that application does not soundly exist for the T'ai Chi Ch'uan technique you refer.


"the transition from (fig 4) to (fig 5) entails the use of circular footwork(dragon stance/steal step/bagua), that is practically nowhere to be found in the tai chi form, yet is definitely an integral part of tai chi. - i guess that's just one of the things that they conveniently never teach you, so you'll never really understand the art. "

Dragon stance is too akward t get to figure 5 from figure 4



"IN OTHER WORDS: i am saying there is a problem with many tai chi schools out there. - not that this is the ultimate mack daddy technique of techniques, or, that this is the only interpretation; but, this is one correct app. "


The technique you call fan...is left foot forward and left arm forward (both arms seperate); figure 4 is left foot forward but,Right arm forward (both arms seperate). The mechanics are such that these are Different techniques.