The Life and Times of Taijiquan

[RAF]

http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200205/31/eng20020531_96863.shtml

Last updated at: (Beijing Time) Friday, May 31, 2002

T'ai Chi' - -Not All Black and White

variety show co-produced by Shanghai Acrobatic TThe show is not acrobatic; it's not martial arts; it's not dance - it's none of each but all of these and much more. "T'ai Chi," a spectacular heatre and China Performance Arts Agency (CPAA) will be staged in Beijing at the Poly Plaza for three consecutive evenings starting next Wednesday. . .

So the producers chose t'ai chi as the theme of the show and martial arts.

The Chinese characters for t'ai chi can be translated as "supreme ultimate," which is often associated with the Chinese concept of yin and yang, the notion that one can see a dynamic duality - male/female, active/passive, dark/light, forceful/yielding...- in all things.

Many of t'ai chi movements are originally derived from martial arts, although the movements are slow, soft and graceful, with smooth and even transitions between them.

The practical exercises of t'ai chi are also based on the wider philosophical context of Taoism. This is a reflective, mystical Chinese tradition first associated with the scholar and mystic Lao Tsu, an older contemporary of Confucius.

"These Chinese traditions and cultures related with t'ai chi are displayed in the show," said Li.

She designs the whole show as a "tunnel of time and space."

The performance starts with a little girl in contemporary costume led by two dancers - a man in black and a woman in white - into the tunnel where the brave performers with boundless energy show her, as well as the audience, more than 2,000 years of Chinese acrobatic traditions.

As the "thread actress," the little girl appears and performs now and then and comes back to reality at the end of the show.

Li Xining, director of "T'ai Chi," shared Wei's view. "Many well-known foreign circus theatres employ Chinese acrobats very competitive in the international circus world for their high skills. Yet it is not the only reason these theatres' productions sell well.

"Their performances are not mere acrobatics but a variety show with fabulous choreography, amazing lighting, enchanting scenery and powerful music," explained Li, a veteran director and choreographer of acrobatic shows, who also has rich experience in co-operating with foreign circuses.

Therefore, after a successful co-operation with Li on "Shaolin Warriors," a kung fu show selling well in Canada and the United States, CPAA decided to produce a "new-wave" Chinese acrobatic show for a world tour early last year.


The allure of the acrobatics has always been magical. But "T'ai Chi" has redefined the meaning of the word, taking it to the next level - a performing art without boundaries; ballet without gravity.

This is tragic. What does this do for the inclusion of Taijiquan in the Olympics?

Does anyone want to ponder what the fate of Taijiquan will become in the mind of the public at large?

Sickening, just sickening!

[bamboo_ leaf]

Why can’t it be what it is for some and what it is for others?
All this talk of TC is this or that seem very restrictive to me.

We can analyze TC movements to see if they fall into what was written by past masters. Those that do not can not be called TC.

Past masters used it for their own needs of that time why should it be any less so now?

I see people all the time with whom I do not agree with their way of TC but I encourage them to play because they enjoy it. I also test myself with others (pushing mainly) with different people to test myself and learn.

Many people that I have pushed with think of TC as an MA, it really shows in their approach, some have some good MA skills but many are very basic in their TC approach and still do not really understand inner force vs the use of outer strength.

I don’t say there wrong I just let them feel that there is a whole different approach to what there doing if they can get past the idea of fighting.

we can talk about what and how TC came to be, not every one can reach the top or even get it, but all can try and have some benafit in their endevors.

for those seeking the upper part of the art, they will find it regardless of what else happens.

i think for most of us we find what we seek if we keep looking long enough. :)

david

[RAF]

Sorry Dave but this is a *******iz**ation and commercialization of traditional art. If you define no boundaries, then everything is acceptable and, to me, this is a mark of narcissistic culture. At the core of narcissisiim is flood of inferiority and weakness.

I can appreciate mysticism and spirituality as an experiential path, not intellectualization and commercialization.

Do you honestly think that Zheng Man Qing would look upon this with great favor? He didn't toss out his daoism and Confusius with his vision of taijiquan. Certain traditions are worth preserving.

We may differ on our views and may not be able to find a definitive boundary but everything is not possible. At some point, this collective mutation of taiji leads to a loss of identity and leveling: it becomes no more that a self-indulgent expression of dance.

Imagine if this were done in the West. We would be accused of appropriating a cultural treasure. Even Al Huang, philospher, daoist practitioner, martial artist and professional dancer never pushed the envelope this far.

This isn't about an individual discovering their own path, its about mass producing , commercializing and a distorting of a cultural treasure.

The suggestion of putting taijiquan on tour as a dance troupe throughout Europe and United States is an outrage.

But what the He_ll! In the long run this really doesn't matter but it does make good fodder for a discussion board.

[taijiquan_student]

"The allure of the acrobatics has always been magical. But "T'ai Chi" has redefined the meaning of the word, taking it to the next level - a performing art without boundaries; ballet without gravity."

I'm with RAF. This is f**ked up. Ballet without gravity? No gravity? This is very disturbing, not that this is the first time I've seen crap like this. Taiji in the olympics and as a "spiritual" dance is a very bad idea. Very bad.

I have often been in agreement with you David (not always:p ) but this is definitly not an issue of being close-minded or placing limits on taiji.

Zheng Man Qing said he was 70% Confucious and 30% Laozi. I think old Laozi would go kick some ass.

[bamboo_ leaf]

“For those seeking the upper part of the art, they will find it regardless of what else happens.”

Och!! Points taken, thanks.

Yes, it dose make for interesting discussion.

Part of the allure for many people playing TC is that it really looks effortless. They mistake this for no effort. It takes quite a bit to get to the point where you can really do it. Then we can talk of effortless.

I don’t pay to much attention to what others do, nor do I worry about what will happen to TC or how it will develop.

Why? I can see the seeds of many future developing masters here and in the parks. TC will be alive and well long after I return the gift I was given so long ago.

david

[Ka]

Raf you said "certian traditions are worth preserving"
Who decides which traditions are worth presevering?
I'm with Dave,those looking for it will find it,and it will always be there.

[RAF]

Just what is the "it" you will find? Was the "it" passed down or did you simply invent "it"? Was "it" preserved as part of tradition or modified from a tradition?

Your answer is in the "it" you choose.

Let me make it simple and avoid all the over-intellectualization on lineage and tradition:

Yes or no: Would you make the Shanghai Troupe's Taiji Dance a part of your lineage?

When will you be sending your students to learn the dance routines?

[Ka]

That's right, the answer is in what you are looking for.

In answer to your second ? No I am not interested in Taiji dance,nor as a lineage but that doesn't make me more right and them more wrong.

With the endless amount of variations in MA even within styles ,I would think that the individuals goals ultimatly directs them to where they want to go.Whether you agree with each individuals goal is your matter.

But you still didn't answer my ?

Wouldn't this just end up as a my style vs yours,a debate which I think many are way beyond on this board.

[RAF]

You are already making decisions as to what is right or wrong or what should or should not be preserved.

You don't own your decisions. You lay it off on saying that there is no right or wrong but yet you do discriminate among martial arts and what you consider appropriate.

There is a well-developed, although not perfect, set of principles that does come through lineage and tradition. When someone claims taiji as being this or that, you indeed can measure it against more or less accepted principles. You'll never get consensus which is 100% agreement but its fairly easy to see whether associating taijiquan with a dance troupe enhances or diminishes the reputation and acceptance of the art. There is an absolute definition to taijiquan.

Your goals are not made in a vacuum. They are shaped by tradition and lineage. Lineage is a necessary but not sufficient condition for preserving and discriminating among martial arts systems.

My guess is that you don't want to offend anyone but judgements are being made and not everything is relative.

Aside from jumping to some abstract intellectuaized diatrabe, my post is aimed directly at the taking a serious, traditional, well-principled martial arts i.e. Yang Shi Taijiquan and turning into staged art performance. It does not enhance the greatness of taijiquan and it clearly diminishes it by relegating to pop culture. Kinda like that guy David Carradine, you know, the Shaolin priest who puts out the great taiji tapes.

What does it mean to be beyond the lineage, my style v. your style debate? Its still alive and kicking all over this board as it should be. What's wrong with a good look at where yours or my art comes from? Its actually kinda of fun because, your right, there is a paradox: none of this important but it is of value. That's why the board goes on and on.

WE LOVE IT!:eek: WE LOVE IT;)

[RAF]

PS KA:

If you think this has gone on too far and has gotten silly, I'll delete and let it pass to other topics.

Its your call. I am not here to offend anyone. Just a little fun between grass cuts and shopping.

[Ka]

Hey Raf
No its cool,it an't that silly yet,I wouldn't ask the ? if I didn't want to hear the answer.

However I think the term here for you is MA,where as I don't see that dance troope as trying to do anything other then entertain,if they where declaring there troope as something martial and making claims of there magnificent "gavity defying " fighting ablility then I would be on your side.But they are just a dance troope!

I understand completely,when you argue from the Yang family lineage side,but surely this is far from the first example that you would have seen of (and as you point out eg D Carridine)staged art performance.WuShu dare I say it is vitualy there already.Australia recently had the "Wheel of Life Shaolin Monks " performance and they certianly have all the lineage anyone could ever want.

As Dave said, makes for interesting discussion.and as always you bring out some interesting points.and thats why I keep posting.:)

[looking_up]

I think that a lot of people who are looking for taijiquan
(without knowing exactly what it is that they are looking for)
are having a very, very hard time finding it because of stuff like
taiji dance. That was the case for me, and I only sought out
taijiquan because of a stray comment that a friend of mine
(whose opinion I trust) made to me years ago :

"Tai Chi is a fighting art. Don't be fooled by what you see."

This was a revelation to me, and is a revelation to 95% of the
people that I've discussed the martial arts with. Taiji dance isn't
going to help lower that figure. Even those that are learning
taiji for health purposes should learn it as quan - the benefits
are greater that way.

[[Censored]]

Yes or no: Would you make the Shanghai Troupe's Taiji Dance a part of your lineage?

When will you be sending your students to learn the dance routines?

That is a very good point, but I think you are asking the wrong questions.

How many more people can be introduced to Taiji in this more accessible format? Is this format better than nothing at all, FOR THOSE WITH NO OTHER EXPOSURE? How many of those exposed to the art through this avenue, will research the deeper significance of the art?

The dance is not for those who already know, it is for everybody else.

[Walter Joyce]

You raise an interesting points [Censored]. I have yet to resolve these issue for myself, but:
Are martial arts for everyone? I think not, based on my experience as a teacher and a student.

Does widespread exposure help or hurt the martial arts? On the one hand, many of the arts we take for granted today because they are taught openly, were nearly impossible to study only 20 to 30 years ago, unless you lived in the right location. (I'm thinking ba gua, xing I, baji, pi qua, tong bei, lo he ba fe {sp?}. On the other hand, has over exposure diluted the essence of these arts? I don't know, but seeing what happened to the more "mainstream" arts, the prognosis is not good. At the very least it will be a struggle to maintain quality.

And assuming widespread exposure is a good thing, is it helpful for that exposure to be to an already watered down approach, i.e. the government sanctioned tai chi dance. Does this open the door for charlatans?

How many cheesy commercial studios are out there compared to serious training halls? And how did the cheese get started? And which schools have the highest enrollments?

Sticking my neck out a bit given the times, Americans are fairly self-centered in their world view, and more than once I've seen traditional arts cheapened because of a failure to fully immerse oneself in the tradition before trying to update it. Real beneficial change rarely comes from someone who doesn't understand what they are doing fully, but how many times have you run across instant "masters" who freely adapt or modify traditional arts because they know better, or because their students can't cope with the traditional curricullum. Change and evolution is a good thing, but it helps if one understands what one is trying to change.

I don't have the answers to these questions, and admit that my views may be wrong, but it did seem like a good time to raise the questions.
Good training,
Walter

[taijiquan_student]

"Americans are fairly self-centered in their world view, and more than once I've seen traditional arts cheapened because of a failure to fully immerse oneself in the tradition before trying to update it."

Walter, nice post. While I agree with basically everything you said, in this case generalizing about Americans is not quite accurate. The state of taiji (and martial arts in general) is really just as bad in China as it is in America. There are many wushu/performance schools and many fakes who teach taiji dance to the unsuspecting, fueling the misconceptions held by 90-something % of the world in regards to taiji. That isn't to say that there aren't some great masters and practicioners in China today, but there are a good number of masters living in America as well. (By the way--I agree with what you said about America's worldwiew; I just don't happen to think your statement applies to this taiji-related situation)

[Censored]. I have to disagree with you.

"How many more people can be introduced to Taiji in this more accessible format?"

No more. What they will be introduced to will not be taiji. It will be "ballet without gravity". There is a good chance they will believe that this ballet they are learning is actually taiji, when in fact it is a *******ization of the original/true art.

"Is this format better than nothing at all, FOR THOSE WITH NO OTHER EXPOSURE?"

I would say no. First of all, it is not as if this is the only format that exists and without it people would have nothing. Second of all, talking about those who have no other exposure, I find it hard to believe that ordinary people with no exposure to martial arts at all will have an easier time understanding and grasping the principles of the very quasi-philosophic, new-agey, "one-with-your-spirit" brand of dance laid out in the original article than they will learning and understanding the principles of real taiji (both are probably quite difficult at times. I know the taiji is, at least;) )

"How many of those exposed to the art through this avenue, will research the deeper significance of the art?"

No more than are beginning to research (practice, I should say) it now. The truth is, there is already "taiji dance" out there, and there is quite a lot of it. This is just another, even more *******ized version, seeming to border on *******izing the *******ization. Even with the existence of the many watered-down schools and fakes, there are those individuals who bypass the dance for the real thing. If this new ballet-"taiji" becomes widespread, the situation will remain as it is now--those who find out about or desire to practice real martial arts/taiji will bypass the wushu-dance schools for the real goods. I can't see how the addition of a new and even more commercialized version of taiji could possibly contribute in a positive way to the numbers of people delving into the deeper aspects of the art.

[[Censored]]

taijiquan_student, you are being silly. Tell me about the state of CMA in the USA, before and after Bruce Lee.

Do you consider Bruce Lee to be the greatest master of kungfu ever to reach our shores? Or was he the greatest FIGHT CHOREOGRAPHER, i.e. DANCER?

Which came first, taiji or daoyin? Don't talk about the "true art", it sounds provincial and self-serving. :)

I find it hard to believe that ordinary people with no exposure to martial arts at all will have an easier time understanding and grasping the principles of the very quasi-philosophic, new-agey, "one-with-your-spirit" brand of dance laid out in the original article than they will learning and understanding the principles of real taiji

Have you been to the grocery store lately? They have 3 different brands of "zen iced tea", but still no boxing manuals. ;) Do you understand this?

[taijiquan_student]

Bruce Lee is not the issue. I don't think he was the greatest martial artist ever to reach our shores. He was a great movie star and a great choreographer, maybe even a good/great martial artist--I don't know, he's dead, I don't know that much about him.

When I say something like the "true art" I'm not refering to a specific lineage or style/family. I don't mean to say "I have the real art and you don't" or anything like that. What I refer to is the art of taiji as a whole that adheres to certain fundamental principles. When these principles are done away with in favor of dancing and new-age wish-wash it is no longer the "true art". You could call it something else if you want, but I think we can all agree that taiji is based upon certain principles and a certain mindset. That is all I mean.:)

"Zen iced tea" has nothing to do with zen.;)