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Ray Pina
05-31-2002, 08:23 AM
Just popping in briefly:

I had one of my greatets "hands on" martial experiences tuesday night.

We were doing Hsing-I drills. First, stepping. Then some energy drills. This led to my master going around the room with arms spread, first offering to put our spread arms down from a top position, and then reversing.

He put me down with ease. What happened next was surprising, embarassing and humbling.

I know my master is powerful, I've felt it many times. And I have great respect for him. But everything was put into perspective tiesday.

When it was my turn, I could not budge his arms. Not an inch. Now, if I saw this on a video I would have said, "what a puss, let me give it a go."

Usually, I never use full power when my master gives my the privelege of working hands on. No need to. I know he can beat me, so I use that time to look, feel and learn. But this was different, a test of power.

My face was red to much of the class' delight. I couldn't move him. Now, for further perspective, I am 28, 5'11 ans 210-215 lbs.

My master is 60, under 5'10, maybe 5'9, and about 140 -- though he's looking a little bigger as of late. Couldn't move him.

Then, I paired up with his top disciple, a young 20s little girl, about 5'-5'1 and 100lbs soaking wet. I could put her arms down to about her naval, and then she became like a rock -- couldn't budge her.

Now for me, a fighter, I was completely taking by surprise, shocked and like I said, embarrassed.

Disconeceted, stepped bask, shook my head and saluted her and then my master. Told them that was the most impressive thing I ever felt.

Mind. Chi. Technique.

My master told me I needed more practice. Internal is still knew to me. Chi is no longer a question in my mind. I'm having experieneces with the excercises. Very amazing. Very impressive. This is some hi-tech stuff.

Anyway, hope all is well. Look forward to seeing everyone in NY on Sept. 28th.

Peace
Ray

Nexus
05-31-2002, 11:25 AM
Mind. Chi. Technique. Well said. You will find that you cannot push someone who is not trying to resist your push. You in fact are pushing into nothingness, or rather, pushing into yourself. This is why you get tired, red faced, etc. As soon as you set your intention pushing him over, you become committed to that intention. Your instructor who sounds skilled is able to be receptive without contending with your push then his receptivity works against your negative intention.

You could push him over if his intention was to resist your push. This may make sense to you or it may not depending on where you are in your development, however I assure you it is the case. I too have pushed against individuals who I could not budge, and who I felt like I was using all of my energy in my attempt to push them. It was from those experiences, like your own, that led me to understanding what is actually taking place 'behind the scenes' or subconsciously.

Investigate, question and understand these principles that come into play in your t'ai chi. One of the great advantages is the same concepts can be applied to life in general.

Allow me to draw a quick analogy: If you were to walk up the great wall of China, and you decide to yourself, I am going to push the wall over. You go up to the wall, and begin to push with the intention of pushing the wall over. However, the wall does not budge, and in the very same note it does not try to resist your push. Rather, it exists in the state that it is in. Now, naturally we know before I even finished this analogy that you couldn't push the wall over. We know this 'naturally' because we recognize that the wall in it's natural state cannot be pushed over. The same thing applies to your instructor. In this you will realize that it is not the act of pushing that defeats you, but rather you defeat yourself. The Tao Te Ching mentions this concept in saying "As the sage contends with no-one, he himself cannot be contended with."

Food for thought.

- Nexus

Ray Pina
05-31-2002, 11:38 AM
I understand what you are saying.

I don't know if that's what my master was doing or not, but I understand the point you are making.

Unfortunately, I understand a lof of this stuff in theory, and when it comes to techniques, I can usually pick them up quite quickly, understand how they should work. Its the doing it for real that is quite the contrary.

I'm resting my MARTIAL intent for a while. No more throwng punching in class between sessions, ect. My technique is terrible and should be put away. I need to get back to the "zero" state, and just watch, listen and LEARN more.

Do more body mechanic/focus/intention drills. We've begun to focus on Hsing-I lately, which I like. Unfortunately, its not as easy as I thought it would be. The devil is in the details.

I have a love hate relationship with martial arts the past few weeks. I hope it passes. Walking away is not an option at this point.

Nexus
05-31-2002, 11:47 AM
The love/hate relationship comes from an emotional investment in seeing a certain kind of technique or skill occur or appear. The skill will appear whether you are emotionally attached to seeing it appear or not as a result of your practices.

With that said there is nothing wrong with wanting and choosing to practice your techniques, perfecting them, understanding them and enjoying them. That is part of why we are doing the martial arts isn't it?

Just be clear with yourself as to why you are doing what you are doing. If you are not clear, ask yourself why you aren't. You will find what you are looking for if you choose to.

Ray Pina
05-31-2002, 12:33 PM
You hit the nail on the head!

Its coming from frustration. The truth of the matter is I used to do a lot of heavy sparring with S Mantis, so I'm comfortable trading blows.

I've been training internal for about 15 - 16 months now. I had a foolish notion that I could take some of the principles, some of my master's techniques and my stuff would be super charged. Truth be told, my master's Way is tottaly individual.

It can't be done the way I want it to -- silly me. I have to start from scratch. It its not an ego thing, having the hardest time literally learning to walk again. Its the frustration, that after all these years, literally 24 now, that I still suck. I just tearned 28, and part of it lies in the fact that I want to go do battle -- and with good players.

I'm just not ready yet. I have faith, and I see my masters power at 60, so even if it takes me to 33 to get to where I need to be, as long as I have no injuries or hurt my knees further, I should be OK.

Its just a matter of imaturity -- I WANT IT NOW! type of thing.

But I realise that, so ...

Truth be told, I love MA. Always have, always will. Its a part of me. Its part of who I am. I'm just not satisfied, and I feel one part foolish, for thinking I had "soemthing" at one time, and another part desperate (?) for seeing it before me with my master, knowing it is here. Just have to do it.

Tuesday was a real head spinner. Not being bale to put my master's arms down -- expect that. But his 100lbs disciple -- a girl -- wow, that's another. Unbelievable. That really through me for a loop. She's the best pound for pound MA I know -- next to my master of coarse. The best kicker I've ever seen too. Real kicking.

Nexus
05-31-2002, 12:46 PM
There is no where for you to go but where you are right now. All of your frustration will dissapear if you let go of the image of where you want to be. Also remember that we can be limmitted to those images, so you strain yourself to fit an image you created. I think you realize this however as it seems clear from your response, and in that realization you said you are now able to choose how you want to approach it.

- Nexus

Liokault
06-01-2002, 05:22 AM
I have a really good "Chi " trick to that I can teach any one.


It will cost you $20 a week but in 10 years you will be able to do it your self and charge $30 for classes in it.

BUT you have to bring your own pack of cards with 5 aces in it before I can show you the trick.

CD Lee
06-01-2002, 08:27 PM
Just a hypothetical, if you can be serious enough.

Lets say just for arguments sake that Chi does exist, is real, and actually does take years to cultivate, feel, use, etc. As the Chi skeptic that you are, you could never be satisfied. This is because you cannot get it quickly, and you happen to be paying money for lessons for years. Now Chi is not all they teach you, but simply one component they talk about and develop on an ongoing basis.

In a similar way, take western boxing, which can be learned very quickly by anybody right? You get all the punches, and how to throw them with power, and for only a few short lessons. No hidden Chi here. Now, how long will it take the average person who has never fought before, to be able to execute western boxing at the level of a world class fighter? Years and years if they are exceptionally talented, and never for most. But anybody that worked could get 'some' of it. In this case, you could argue that the boxing trainers are charging thousands of dollars over a period of years for things that the average person will not be able to develop like a world class boxer.

I personally don't think your argument - that they charge for something that is not there - is valid. Even if it is true, your 'argument' is still not valid in it's own right.

One more time, if Chi does exist and it takes years to develop and cultivate, how would YOU prove that you were NOT paying for fraudulent teachings?

Nexus
06-01-2002, 11:27 PM
The Riftwar Saga, a series of books that is interlaced with fantasy and magic has a character in it named Nakor. He is this mysterious character all throughout the series, who pops in and out of books and scenarios randomly to accomodate the needs of whatever the current situation or problem is. In the book he is always doing magic, pulling endless amounts of oranges from an empty sack, fighting multiple guards at once and dodging in and out of their reach effortlessly.

He is talking with a thief at one point, and the thief is asking him, 'How is it that you perform magic?' And Nakor responds by saying, 'There is no magic, it is only a trick. It appears to be magic because you believe it is and have not learned the trick.'

James, the thief, says that he does not understand, so Nakor asks him if he can juggle. James who is highly dexterious nods and Nakor pulls three oranges from his sack. He gives them to James who begins to juggle them. He then asks James, 'Can you juggle three in one hand.' James says, 'No, I can't.' Nakor says let's see. James tries and they fall to the ground. Nakor then says, 'When you learn to juggle the oranges using no hands at all, you will have mastered the trick.'

Daniel Madar
06-02-2002, 02:49 AM
Of course, you neglect to mention that by his own admission, Nakor is moderately insane. He just knows he is, so it doesnt really affect him in the everday.

Liokault
06-02-2002, 04:34 AM
Lets say just for arguments sake that Chi does exist, is real, and actually does take years to cultivate, feel, use, etc. As the Chi skeptic that you are, you could never be satisfied. This is because you cannot get it quickly, and you happen to be paying money for lessons for years. Now Chi is not all they teach you, but simply one component they talk about and develop on an ongoing basis.


This is not true. I would love to belive in "magic" chi and it would be so easy to do so. I would also love to belive that aliens are visiteing our planet but their is no evidance (im talking real evidance) for either.

Now I have nothing against people that belive in chi its just that i have seen so many so called chi demo's that were obviously bogus yet had lots of the the guy who was demonstraightings students foaming at the mouth with awe.

I have also heard chi used to offten as an excuse by people who have forgotten most of their tai chi and have forgotten how to do what is left properly.

Daniel Madar
06-02-2002, 07:35 AM
"I have also heard chi used to offten as an excuse by people who have forgotten most of their tai chi and have forgotten how to do what is left properly."

I can easily agree with this statement, but the problem is you can't judge a group by the lowest element that is part of its make up. Any martial art class has crappy students, as well as talented ones, even grappling classes. Some people just don't get it, no matter what.

The problem with Qi is that it is easy to imagine you understand what it is, without actually knowing. I went for years as an external MA convinced I understood Qi. I read Zen in the Martial Arts, and I did some breathing exercises, all that crap. I had it down, no ifs, ands, or buts.

I was wrong of course, but at that time, you couldn't have convinced me. Hell, to be completely honest I could still be completely deluding myself, but at the very least a number of other people with far more experience than I have, have reinforced my opinion of what it is and is not.

As for people who pay attention to tricks, rather than the complete package, well, screw em.

I mean lets be honest, if you want to spend 3 years learning how to make it so someone cant bend your arm, you have some priority issues. If you want to spend ten years learning how to knock someone over without touching them, well hey, whatever!

Real internal martial arts, whether you believe in Qi, or not is not about tricks. Too often people here the term Qi, and it sets off their bull**** detector, just because they mistakenly associate Qi with some guy hammering a nail into a board with their forehead.

If that was so great, how come all the carpenters of the world are not making a beeline for shaolin temple?

Liokault
06-02-2002, 10:33 AM
I remember reading an article in a magazine about the some top aikido guy in japan who would do lots of "tricks"

He would sit cross legged on the floor and chalange a student to push him over ...they never could even though he was tiny.

He would put his arm out to his side straight from his shoulder and challange a student to pull it down...again they never could.


lots more but i read this article years ago and i no longer have the magazine. Any way all this was done in the name of ki and as he was very high up in the aikido order in japan every body belived it was ki.

BUT the guy writeing the article gave away how the aikido teacher was doing it. For each "trick" he gave a non magical non chi non ki how to do walk though.

I remember trying the arm straight out from the shoulder one in class and it worked.




On a totaly differant note is that American guy still offering $50,000 for the first person that can show him chi?

Nexus
06-02-2002, 11:10 AM
Originally posted by Daniel Madar
Of course, you neglect to mention that by his own admission, Nakor is moderately insane. He just knows he is, so it doesnt really affect him in the everday.

Daniel,

Nakor admits he is insane, however does that really mean he is insane?

If someone admits they are a chi master does that really mean they are?

How is knowing that you're insane any different from knowing that you are not insane? Nakor's admission to being insane allows the reader if the reader so chooses to envision him as being what they believe insane to be. Now, this is entirely ok, as long as you the reader, recognize that he is not insane because he admits to being insane, but rather he is insane because you choose to see him that way.

Daniel Madar
06-02-2002, 03:51 PM
Nexus, relax... I was just joking around.

Liokault, you seem to have entirely missed what I am saying. I am not sure if you did, or did not, but you seem stuck on tricks=qi. I ran into the same thing when I was talking to the James Randi organization. If a phenomenon was scientifically explainable, it could not possibly have been the result of qi, even if the phenomenon was classically ascribed to qi in china, because "qi" to them is some mystical force bordering on magic, and by definition could not be explained through scientific means. The concept that having a scientific explanation to them meant it was disproving qi, while they never opened their mind to the possibility that it might in fact be doing just the opposite.

And also by definition it gave them enough leeway to never have to pay out the 1 million bucks they offer.

Liokault
06-02-2002, 03:56 PM
Ok so just tell me what you have seen "chi"do.


And what did you want to show the James Randi lot?

Shadow Dragon
06-02-2002, 04:38 PM
Liokault.

You are trying to compare western sciences with eastern ones and you will run into some serious walls there.

In Asia Body/Mind/Spirit are all parts of a bigger thing and are interlinked.
In the west those are often seperated.

Also Asian Cultures kinda understand Qi/Chi/Ki without any explanation, it is part of their culture and upbringing.
What is "alternative/disputed" medicine/concepts in the USA is often widely practiced and accepted/concepts medicine in the World like Europe & Asia.

Now when MA was introduced into the West it was via flashy HK or japanese Samurai/Ninja Movies which are usually the equivalent to Harry Potter, Spiderman, Star Wars in western Culture.

Now there are some People out there that wanna sell you those trics for lots of money, and they are misusing the simply term of "Chi", which has as much meaning as "Abrakadabra" to the uninformed.
So if you wanna know about true "Chi" and what it is, you will have to go out there and find the answer for yourself.
Don't rely on science that is a few hundred years old and flawed to explain concepts that have been used for thouands of years by millions if not billions.
As for James Randi, he is a failed magician(not a scientist) that tries to copy Houdini by exosing frauds. All the Test have to be done under his conditions, with scientists that are paid by him and are designed to fail the testee.
James Ranid is a showman and he is milking many People the same way that L. Ron Hubbard and P.T. Barnum did.

Peace.

P.S.: You will know true "Chi" when you feel it, and there are many people that can show/teach it.

Daniel Madar
06-02-2002, 05:52 PM
Chi does not "do" things. I do things. Do I levitate? No. Do I throw fireballs? No. Do I break beer bottles with my head... Well, I was really drunk, and I dont think it counts. Can I jump real high, get stabbed with a dull spear? No.

Its clear you are stuck in belief that doing dumb things with pointy objects and qi are synonymous, and they are not.

And I was talking to Randi because I was curious about their methods of testing, nothing more. Any times someone offers a million dollars, it makes me skeptical of how they do things.

crumble
06-03-2002, 09:46 AM
Originally posted by Daniel Madar
If a phenomenon was scientifically explainable, it could not possibly have been the result of qi, even if the phenomenon was classically ascribed to qi in china, because "qi" to them is some mystical force bordering on magic, and by definition could not be explained through scientific means.

Very interesting! And really that's the the point that a lot of people don't get.

Qi is a word that was used in a time before xrays, a broad understanding of anatomy, etc.

When it is used in a practical manner, it refers to movement that is coordinated with the action. As you get more coordinated, you would be said to "build qi".

I don't know how else can you describe coordination... we all use the word like we know what it is, but unless you can do it, you really don't understand coordination at all.

Huh, check this out! With a simple replacement:

I don't know how else can you describe qi... we all use the word like we know what it is, but unless you can do it, you really don't understand qi at all.

Okay, that's enough of being a smart ass today...

-c

12345
06-10-2002, 04:12 AM
Originally posted by Liokault
I remember reading an article in a magazine about the some top aikido guy in japan who would do lots of "tricks"

He would sit cross legged on the floor and chalange a student to push him over ...they never could even though he was tiny.

He would put his arm out to his side straight from his shoulder and challange a student to pull it down...again they never could.



15 years ago I trained in aikido - and the instructor pulled this stunt in class one night - the arm out one didn't impress me that much but I could not figure how he could resist being pushed over when sitting cross legged on the floor with me pushing his chest. He never claimed this was chi but I would love to know how he did this if you can remember ?

Nexus
06-10-2002, 09:36 AM
12345,

Perhaps it is proper body mechanics? I cannot imagine 'without proper body mechnics' that this could be done naturally.

Liokault
06-10-2002, 12:53 PM
15 years ago I trained in aikido - and the instructor pulled this stunt in class one night - the arm out one didn't impress me that much but I could not figure how he could resist being pushed over when sitting cross legged on the floor with me pushing his chest. He never claimed this was chi but I would love to know how he did this if you can remember ?


I really can not remember. I think it was in Fighting Arts international (think you got that in the USA) but we are talking 10 years ago here.