Yesterday's encounter

[Ray Pina]

Was surfing. Few local guys out.

Then a car pulled up with three out of town guys. Never stoked about that, but no problem.

These guys come out, with beers. Leave finished bottles right on the beach before paddling out -- not a good first impression.

They paddle right out to the peak and start hassling everyone for waves, calling guys off and being obnoxious.

Equivalent to going to a playground and, while people are in the middle of a game, start running in and out of the court, yelling and screaming, even intercepting the ball and running around with it.

Now, if it was Michael Jordan, and he came up and dunked the ball -- well, that is one thing. But these drunk bums were terrible, not only taking waves, but then blowing them.

There were words between a few of the guys and my friends. I paddled away and found my own peak.

Anyway, I get out and I see these guys in the parking lot using their surf wax to write derogatory crap on everyone's windows. And, waxing their locks so they can't get into their car. A real hassle, $hit is hard to get off.

Lucky, thy didn't get to mine, but were waxing a good friend of mines at the time.

Still, in my wetsuit, I call out: "What the hell are you doing?"

Two of the guys were already changed and in the car, ripping bong hits actually.

Their loud mouth friend, wax in hand: "None of your God **** business."

Now, I have the pony-tail, the goatee, the full on beach bit(h look. Only thing, unlike these Long Island guys, I didn't grow up at the beach or the suburbs, I grew up in Newark.

"None of my business huh, that's my boys car you're f*cking with". I zipped my suit back up because I knew -- didn;'t want anything loose to be grabbed.

"What you doing to do about it?" He was looked to his friends. I looked to his friends. They stayed put.

"I'm going to kick your ..."

I finished the statement, and I admit, I could have been more polite, maybe been sorf and avoided the whole thing. But they ****ed me off so I admit, I egged this on.

He charged. He was a bit smaller thenmyself, maybe 5'9- 5'10, 175 180. Small, but kind of big for a surfer.

My right hit his outstreched arms as he chraged and I felt his weight. Stepped back and gave him a left. His arms took off a lot of the power and I was more or less stiff arming him. There was a moment, it seemed like 7 seconds but probbaly less, where it seemed like we froze.

I had my back hand up and I felt his arms at the side of my head, my palm was on his chin pushing his head back, his hand got to the side of my face and then we broke.

He had his hands up, did a little side to side dance.

I was reday, a little disapointed in myself. All I was thinking is that I better not loose to this guy. If I do, I'm a looser and full of $hit.

He charged again. I braced myself and caught him with a solid right uppercut. He didn't fall, but it hurt him. He stumbled back and pout his arms out in the "OK, enough" posture.

I hard my guard slightly up, knowing I hurt him and trying to look relaxed to mess with his mind. My adrenaline was flying.

He backed a way to the truck, threw his board in and hopped in wetsuit still on.

I did the same, not wanting to hang around incase someone saw.

Now, I won the confrontation, no doubt. That one shot landed solid and clean. Jarred his body but I knew it took him out of the game and I sensed that I definitely out powered him.

BUT, I was really unhappy with the first clash. Terrible. How could he get to me. How could we be tied up like that? It was my first real fight in years. I was nervous that first go. The second I was more pressured not to screw up, thinking about years of training.

Got home, while having dinner an hour later I wiped my nose and realised some dry blood on my finger about a minute later. Not sure how that got there. I didn't feel a blow land, just his arm around the side of my head when we were jammed up. But it had to happen then.

The second time I stepped very slightly to the left and connected with a clean unanswered uppercut. I was a bit surprised how it landed, smooth like butter. But even then, I didn;t follow it up.

I was thinking I should have naturally, what if ....?

So, overall, I am disapointed in myself. In a way, ignorance is bliss. I thought I was a MA before training with my master. Now, everytime I train I feel like a retard. Everything I do is wrong.

I'm improving, and I feel more confident as a fighter, because before was just a joke, but at the same time, I really am just a white belt, and after all these years that's discouraging, having to start from scratch. But yesterday, and training with my master Tuesday, put everything in perspective.

If I want to be good, I have to be where I am right now and take it seriously, train harder.

Well, I'm leaving work early today to surf. I'm wondering if these guys will be there again? I never seen them before. Not worried about it like that. I know everyone in the water -- the local crew.

My mind is a mess as of late.

[fa_jing]

Hey, welcome back friend!

Should have followed up that uppercut. That's why I like the chain punching, not as a battle tactic at all, rather giving you that mindset that you have to hit and keep hitting.

Why were you head hunting, anyway? He charged at you, you should have gone right to the body. Make his beer drinking ass throw up. Or make him drop his guard, then come up high. You played his game and won, but you still played his game.

This is constructive criticism only, you really deserve a pat on the back and you have some balls. Like you, I haven't had a confrontation in a long time. As it wasn't a life-or-death situation, and no one was being physically attacked, it is understandable that you didn't go all out. As well, you were correct in defending your friends' property with physical force.

So were you able to be in the "relaxed awareness" mind-set, or did the adreneline rush take over? Did you tense up?

-FJ

[Justa Man]

it's cool man. you'll reach that point you're looking for because you aren't satisfied...shoulda ended it sooner, shoulda followed up, shoulda been better, etc.
take it in stride and know you're getting better with every minute you spend training. maybe replay that situation in your head and for about 15 minutes, do the techniques you think you shoulda done. shadowbox the sh!t outta that boy! :)
enjoy the waves.

[Ray Pina]

fa_jing, I have to be honest here, I was nervous when he rushed a bit. I fought a lot as a kig growing up, and for the 2 years I did mantis fought on a regular basis, but here I was in a parking lot getting rushed -- and there was no headgear.

I was very "careful". It happened kind of in slow motion. I saw him coming and I could hear myself saying to do "the right thing". So I attacked his outstreched arms. And then when he kept coming I stepped back and out filling with a left. I was expecting that to do it to be honest -- I've practiced it a thousand times. Not finish it but give me the advantage/position. But his arms were up and took a lot of of it. So it got through, but no major blow, that's how I got to his chin, but we were kind of locked up.

After we broke, I felt a little better. Kind of like, here it is. I wouldn't say I was instantly loose, I could feel the blood pumping. But more settled. When he rushed again that one shot hit so clean I was kind of surprised. And surprised that it affected him the way it did -- it jarred him real good. I thought he was going to go down, I felt him just stop cold. But he didn't.

Anyway, you're one hundred percent right. I should have been on him like flys on $hit, but, too be honest too, I have that nice guy thing in me too, where I can't hurt someone. If somehow he pinned me up against a car and was pummelimg me, well, hell, then I'd freeking bite into his throat if I had too. But at that point, it just kind of felt rediculous.

It was nice, because it was the test I've been waiting for. But, I honestly believe I failed ... in so many ways.

I shouldn't have fought, that's what I hear my first sensei saying (from when I was a kid). SHouldn't have said I'd kick his a$$ and esculate it -- thought I admit I kind of wanted too.

I definitely should have been able to drop him like "that!", but I didn't. The first clash wasn't natural, I was thinking and calculating and not "doing". After all that chi sau, man, when we weer tied up I should have pretzled his arms and clean clocked him. But I didn't.

I think of how my master moves, how everything is painful and brutal. I got lucky. What if his friends came out? Quite stupid. I think I'm more upset because I realise how bad I still am and I just turned 28. I want to fight great fighters, but I am not even close. I'm missing something and I don't know what it is.

My master has it, no doubt.

[Fu-Pow]

Wow...great story. Sounds like you did fine. The guy was drunk so he probably didn't feel the full effect of your strike. He's probably feeling it the next day. When you intitally clashed with this guy it sounds like you lost your root and you were fighting upper body strength with upper body strength. Maybe should have dropped your weight and come up from underneath.

The question I would ask myself after this confrontation is could I have gotten them to do what I wanted without fighting? Afterall, getting your car waxed sucks but getting your throat crushed or eye poked out sucks a lot worse. You can wash a window, clean a lock or even replace a car but you can't replace body parts...or your life. Ghandi said " An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."

Yau Sam

[fa_jing]

I'm sure I would have tensed up too. That's why I am glad I can use my art in a purely external manner, much like Karate. I'm glad that I can hit pretty hard, even while standing straight up with hardly any bend in my knees, no root to speak of. Because if I find myself in a street confrontation, this may be the only way I can fight.

Like my Sifu always says:

"You've got to have these " (shows fists)
"and you've got to have these " (shows feet)

Meaning when all else fails, you've got to have your punches and your kicks. "your most basic techniques," as he puts it.

[Crimson Phoenix]

And my personal favorite: You've got to have these *shows balls..uuh, I mean guts* heheheh
Wow, my first post in like 2 months or something, and of course, it's to say a stupid thing :rolleyes:
But at least now I got the DSL baby heheheheheh

Evo: man, I know the feeling...it's hard...we always have our image of us and what we can do during training, and what we really do when the heat is on...with the doubts, adrenalin, factors clouding our mind, it's hard...our intellects tend to get in the way, when it's the last thing we need...you really described it well, when you said you were telling yourself "do the right thing"...you let the intellectual minds peak for you, not the martial artist in you...that's hard to do...very hard...I believe it's one of the most advanced goals of martial training, kind of like the empty, yet receptive state of mind of duelling samurais...you're still a martial artist...you gained a precious knowledge: what worked, what didn't, that a blow is not necessarily a fight-stopper, even a clean hit. You also learnt that when you land a clean blow or a picture-perfect block, your mind freezes for a while, from a sort of satisfaction, or as if your brain was analyzing what you did (hence the absence of follwo-up)...
****, I wish you could read french, to read that wonderful books about vital points I mentionned several times...there's a part on the tricks of mind that is just gorgeous, and deals with exactly what you felt. But once again, now you realized this in situation, with your body, and not by reading a book...so once again, it's all good, because realizing a mistake is the necessary part to get rid of it!
Also, you know, fighting the gong fu way is hard..real hard...it's not like kick boxing...everyone can kick box after a lil while...fighting gong fu is a whole other story...the achievement of a lifetime...you're 28? so what, you're ONLY 28...you have many more decades of improving your gong fu
;)
Take care, and do not let your mind be troubled, or your training be affected: the outcome is in your favor you taught him a good lesson, and your azz is safe, and you learnt good stuffs. Make the best of the worse, you have all your life to improve :-)
And also, you'd better feel priviledged, you're the first one to get a post after my come-back hehehehehehe ;)

[Water Dragon]

Look at it this way E...

You whupped his @ss good and it sounds like he didn't even get a shot in. If you didn't do martial arts you would be bragging to all of your friends about how bad you beat his @ss and you'd be right.

However, you do practice martial arts so you're never going to be satisfied no matter what the outcome. It's a part of the game.

My advice? Work on your yielding a little more. Sounds like you didn't find/control his center. There's always something you can do better, but you also did good.

[Scarletmantis]

I'm wondering what your feet were doing during all of this? Your story focuses alot on upper body action which might explain the power struggle. Maybe the punch was performed from the feet up which would explain the fluidity. You know the hsing i doctrine: "Keep advancing", it's your feet that do the punching.

I find that focusing on what my lower body is doing rather than catching hands helps a great deal in real confrontations. If I'm rooted with my mind on my waist, the steps come naturally, I stay low, step with speed and dominate the confrontation 99% of the time. I'm not talking out of my a$$ here, my job throws me into a real fight several times a month.

Try reinacting the confrontation with a partner a few times. Make sure he's bigger than you, and get him to really resist. Once you feel comfortable with that, go hard for a few minutes. Try stepping into him, around him, over him like a bulldozer.

Keep your techniques short and simple. Vital targets only. Be aware that your adrenaline rush is going to chuck your coordination out the window, and train your five element fists instead of complex movements. They were designed for fighting and are supurb tools when used for that purpose. You should regain your confidence quickly.

Anyway, real fights NEVER look like a forms competition or a Jet Li film. If you won, then your training worked. Now use the experience to hone your skills.

[CD Lee]

Cool. Now you have a great reference point in your training. This is better than a sparring match too, as you had real risk in getting seriously hurt. Which is another reason I will bring up this suggestion. I too am a nice guy. However, if I thought I would actually have to fight for real, I would probably now, commit in my mind to fight and get the adrenaline dump immediately. Then I would seek to control the dump before I engaged. In this case, I would most likely have approached the guy 'non aggresively', and as I got into range to discuss the matter, explode into a Pi against his head before he figured out that it was a fight. I know that sounds stupid in a way, but he sounded like he really needed an adjustment. Frankly, I do not like fighting. However, if I am going to have to, I would hope I can not allow the other guy to prepare too well. Xingyi is so sneaky and surprising. If you can disguse your attack, or even your defence, it can shock the **** out of somebody.

Just some thoughts. I think you did great. Kudos for allowing it to end the way you did.

[travelsbyknight]

Because, your scenario doesn't sound like kung fu at all. Is this yet another example of guys that study kung fu but revert to boxing when they fight or spar?

[BAI HE]

I think traditional MA's are more suited to defend and counter attack scenarios. When you decided to call this guy out, prehaps you were moving away from the strengths and principals of your art and your character.

[crumble]

For what it's worth, it >might< have been good you locked up a little, because it kept him in front of you, along with the other guys. I can think of nasty throws you could have done, using his energy, but that result in you showing your back to the other guys... which might have made them want to jump in.

I also think that if you hurt the guy any worse the other guys would have felt compelled to rush in, too.

So I think you gave him just the right beating for the situation.

The only other thing I'd add is that, if it was possible (sounds like it wasn't) you really should have signalled for backup, just in case it became a group stomp or weapons were pulled.

-crumble

[Phantom Menace]

you did fine.

[Scarletmantis]

Bai He

"Defend, counter attack", I don't think so. Real fights tend to be crude and unpredictable. If you choose to mount a passive defense and then follow up with a counter, you're going to get clocked. Your defense will only lead to another attack by your opponent, then another, until he gets you. It's much more advisable to lead with an offensive technique, or at least perform your defense and counter with one simple and fluid movement.

Also, your assertion that Evolution has moved "away from the strengths and principals (sic) of (his) art" shows a lack of understanding. Hsing Yi's strength and fighting philosophy revolves around the idea that the best defense is a good offense. I understand that this is at odds with the predominantly Japanese/Okinawan training you have recieved, but it's important for you to realize that there are other valid approaches out there.

My personal opinion is that the aggressive mindset of arts such as Hsing Yi, Ba Gua, Tong Long and the like, are better suited to the sorts of threats that we face in our modern society. Peaceful intentions have thier place in our society, and are always prefferable to violence, but when facing individuals who are ingaging in criminal activities, and who show such a blatant disregard for his fellow man, I prefer to handle the situation with a heavy hand.

Better to be judged by twelve than carried by six.

[BAI HE]

"or at least perform your defense and counter with one simple and fluid movement. "

That's where I've been more successful in encounters than those I have initiated offensively. Most of the MA's I know or seen in actual encounters ( minus the western boxers) recieve and counter.

"If you choose to mount a passive defense "
A block should be performed as vigorous as a strike.

"I understand that this is at odds with the predominantly Japanese/Okinawan training you have recieved, but it's important for you to realize that there are other valid approaches out there."

There are more valid approaches out there. That's why I'm desperate to train in them.
Even a 30 year JMA/AJJ practitioner whose skill and character I greatly admire conceded that if he had to do it all over again
he would study the orthiodox internal arts.

"If you are the hammer strike, If you are the anvil recieve."
Prehaps I'm more of an anvil type personality.

Bye the bye, I thought Evolution was a Taijiquan practitioner not a Hsing-i man.

[Water Dragon]

Boxing IS receive and counter in it's purest form dude.

[BAI HE]

The friends that I grew up with include 1 professional boxer.
Most of the times I've seen them in action was from an offensive standpoint.
It usually involved a little **** talking and then a quick flurry of KO. Boxers by nature prefer offensive tactics that's how they acheive their goal IMO. Western Boxing is extremely street effective, the untrained usually get dropped fast or get stunned quick and wander right into the next combo.

[Water Dragon]

True but...

If you've ever sparred a boxer, you know it's like trying to hit a ghost. Most of theose combos come out of an initial yield (bon and weave) No, it's not receive and counter in the same way a Chinese stylist would do it, but it still is a receive and counter.

[BAI HE]

Good point.

[TenTigers]

Evo, basically,you did nothing wrong, and from what I can see from your previous posts, your training is far from inadequate. What you experienced is the adreneline dump-which happens to everyone in real fights-as opposed to sparring-no matter how much contact there is, it's not the same. There are exercises that dea with adreneline response training devised by Peyton Quinn. He has a weekend training thing called RMCAT in Colorado-it's costly, but it looks like alot of fun and worthwhile training.Not confined to technique or style either. He also hasd a book published by Paladin Press-called something like the Bouncer's guide to barroom brawling which details this training. It might be out of print due tot he fact that he is marketing this in seminars now. This is something I am also planning on including in my own training, and eventually in my own school as well. Keep up the good work.

[Scarletmantis]

Evolution Fists post "Chi?", talks about him practicing Hsing Yi. He also claims I Chuan is martial style. I Chuan has been heavily influenced by Hsing Yi.

Now, to the real issue. It dosen't matter how vigorously you block IMO. The very term "block" implies a passive defense in my mind. It assumes that the only way to avoid your opponents attack is to stand there and take it. Whether you're taking it on your shoulder, forearm, elbow, or meeting it with a perfectly executed traditional "block", you are still taking a passive stance, and fighting with a passive mindset. You are, in effect, waiting for him to "do something", before you respond.

My fighting senarios involve sidesteps, redirections, and parries, but everything is designed to bring the opponent under my control. I am not going to "take" anything from him. I am not going to "recieve" his strike in a way that puts my dominant position at risk, which is what "blocking" in a hard style entails IMO. You can only step back and slam your arm into a full power punch so many times before your enemy succeeds in slamming you.

The idea that your enemy is going to throw a punch and then wait for your counter is also incorrect. He will most likely throw a flurry of punches until you are overwhelmed. What block is going to help you with that senario? Ever see the "Jerry Springer Show"? How are you going to Block and counter on one of those untrained fighters, who don't know they're supposed to "block and counter"?

Do you think that because they are untrained that a chair in the face is'nt going to hurt you? Force on force is not the way of the internal stylist. It's funny that we internalists often get labeled as "soft stylists" because we tend to avoid on comming force. The fact is that it puts the internal fighter in the most advantagious position.

From the outside of an opponent's attack, we can meet him with an aggressive movement of our own. Better yet step out of his attack before he even thinks of hitting you and strike preemptivly. Better still, step out of his attack by leaving the situation entirely alone and walking away.

Do you see where this is going? The internal way appears paridoxical: "don't block, avoid", followed by: "attack, do not counter attack". What can I say, it IS paradoxical, but it also works exceptionally well in combat.

[Water Dragon]

That's a pretty critical post. You might want to check on the semantics E Fist is using. When he says "Block" and you say "Block" are you speaking about the same thing?

[Walter Joyce]

I was thinking the same thing, "blocks" can be an offensive move, sometimes called breaking the fangs of the snake. I knew of someone who actually broke his opponents leg with a "block."
I agree with much of what was said as to the value of other approaches to fighting, but its easy to fall into the trap of discounting other methods that are just as effective as our own.
Good training
Walter

[Scarletmantis]

Of course my post is critical. Taiji is not the only martial art that's been watered down recently in order to appeal to the modern public. Karate, Taekwondo, judo, and many styles of CMA have been effected in this way as well.

Many of the Karate "blocks" we see taught in your typical American Dojos were initially intended to be strikes to vital targets on the opponent's head and body, not to the opponent's attacking limbs.

Don't take my word for it though, see writers such as Vince Morris, Donn Draeger, and the older works of Gichin Funakoshi. Funakoshi himself admits that he altered many of Karate's more lethal techniques in order to make it a suitable art to teach to children!

I am not being critical to any one individual, however. The MA in general provide many valuable benifits to people from all walks of life, and for many different reasons. When it comes to fighting, however, I must disagree with the traditions of other styles when they put the practitioner's life at risk.

Evolution Fist did well, in my opinion. Despite the differences in language, he seems to have used the principles of his art to the best of his ability (even if he's not aware that that's what he did). Indeed, it was Bai He's critisisim of Evo Fist's actions that I was attacking.

Evolution Fist protected his friend's property, prevented a crime, and preserved his own physical safety. He is now in a position to use the experience to improve his ability as a fighter, and has proved to himself that he is capable of doing the right thing despite any fear he may have felt. That takes courage and I commend him for it.

[Phantom Menace]

I Chuan is a martial style.

[bamboo_ leaf]

I think most of what I have read here is really out to lunch.

He survived, was it like TC of course not, how could it be. Was it like any type of kung fu style no of course not.

Was it like how he trained in the gym under his teacher? probably. What and how you train will stick with you, this is the way you will react.


Most of you equated building skill sets to sparring or the “combat sports” sorry but if your looking for TC skills then there is not much in these activities can help build real TC skill unless your level is good to begin with.

This is not to say you shouldn’t test your skill sets, but first make sure you really have the skills. Most people that I have met do not. They still use force .

If this is their idea of TC cool, doesn’t jive with mine or those that I’ve met whom I think are really good. Each follows their own way.


Watered down TC, I always laugh when I read this. Water is quite strong and very fluid. Be careful those that use this term, you may drown in the water depending how deep it is. :)

To survive that is the point. How will be determined by your training, very simple.


david

[Scarletmantis]

Phantom menace:

"I Chuan is a martial style."

:confused: Who's questioning that?

bamboo leaf:

"I think most of what I've read here is really out to lunch."

Couldn't agree with you more... but for different reasons I'm sure.

bamboo leaf:

"He survived, was it like TC of course not, how could it be.(sic)"

Again, who said anything about TC?

bamboo leaf:

"Was it like any type (sic) of Kung Fu style no of course not.(sic)"

I disagree. How many Kung Fu styles have you been exposed to? Are you familiar with I Chuan or Hsing I? Are you aware that Hsing I has a twisting uppercut called Tsuan Chuan which strongly resembles the uppercut of a western boxer? Are you aware that Wang Xiangzhai, I Chuan's founder, studied western boxing and Hsing I, and that he included methods from both in his art? Are you aware that Evolution Fist, the person who we are discussing is a self avowed I Chuan player?

bamboo leaf:

"Was it like how he trained in the gym with his teacher?Probably."

I think, given the facts I alluded to above, there is no doubt he was fighting in a fashion similar to how he trained.

bamboo leaf:

"Watered down TC, I always laugh when I read that. Water is quite strong and very fluid. Be careful those that use this term, you may drown in the water depending how deep it is."

Um, O.K. I'll be careful.

bamboo leaf:

"To survive that is the point (sic). How will be determined by your training, very simple."

I agree. How many fights have you been in since you started training in Taiji? How did you do? I'm assuming you survived since your writing here.;)

Obviously my comments about watered down Taiji were aimed at those practioners who have forgotten thier martial roots. There are many of those folks out there.

Taiji was used for many years as a fighting art, but it's early masters didn't even attempt to fool themselves into thinking that twenty minutes a day, three days a week in a park was going to turn them into fighters.

If you disagree thats fine, but I challenge you to prove that the average American Taiji player can live up to the standards that the old masters lived by. Until I see otherwise, my opinion stands.

[bamboo_ leaf]

Mmmm,

Well after some 30yrs of training I have trained in and and used a few kung fu styles. Gotten my share of lumps and given some.

As far as the old masters go they where human, what you think, or anyone else thinks they did or how they really trained I think most will never know.

Any body who trains for a living should be very good, it’s relative to the time and effort that you put in. a good teacher can help to shorten this and help you to develop your skill with in the style.

The teacher has to be good and really understand the style to do this.

Your training at lest mine is aimed at my level of expectation, I know what I can and can not do. i train because it is part of me and good for my life. To be a fighter does not mean that your kung fu skill is good, also to have good skill dose not mean that you’re the best fighter. a little differnt take.

I think every one needs to get off this kick of kung fu is fighting and fighting is kung fu, it’s much more then that. Such a small part of life to dedicate ones whole out look on.

And yes the few fights that I have been in and the many testing against other styles that I have done I looked exactly the way I trained. If I was using white crane, that’s what people saw, if I was using praying mantis that’s what they saw, same for the TC that I do now. How could it be other wise?

The problem if there is one is the lack of understanding and practice of basic fundamental skills before acquiring the skill of usage. Even among some instructors that I have met, they may be good fighters, but there fighting skill was not one developed though their practice.

don’t pay any attention to the leaf, he’s just blowing in the wind these days. :)

david

[Scarletmantis]

bamboo leaf:

"I think everyone needs to get off this kick that kung fu is fighting and fighting is kung fu, it's much more then that."

Hey, I couldn't agree with you more. Of course we also should not refrain from talking about the combat aspect of our arts either. After all, like it or not, most Kung Fu students are attracted to the art for combat reasons, and it has been the focus of our discussion. If we weren't interested in the topic, we'd do something else with our time, right?

;)

[vingtsunstudent]

let me just ask,
are you the same EvolutionFist who tried telling me that you knew what quality wing chun is & that you used to train hardcore with southern mantis guys, wing chun guys who were good. good people could easily show you how to deal with someone who has been drinking & possibly smoking weed and then is even stupid enough to charge at you.
if this is the same person then odviously all that garbage you used to do wasn't hardcore at all, sorry, but just as i thought back then, it was all in your inexperienced mind.
man you really should have gone and got in some REAL fights before you come on talking like you know how to walk the walk when you odviously don't.
you will learn much from this & one thing for sure is you might even one day learn how to fight.
i am sorry if i seem a bit harsh, but hey, you were the one who used to act very much like a know it all on the matter of combat.

let me finish this with one positive for you, win or lose in a fight & there is always much learn from it. if you win, you should always look at how you could have won more easily, with less effort or what techniques would have been more economical. if you lose you will of course wish to know why & where you need to correct things.
vts

[BAI HE]

Scarlet, I don't think I was being very critical at all.
Fist was kind of questioning what he percieved went wrong in the
encounter.

I offered my thoughts, based on my experiences.
I applaud fist's work. The goal is to endure. He got out
of a violent encounter unscathed, so his training is
paying dividends.

"I think traditional MA's are more suited to defend and counter attack scenarios. When you decided to call this guy out, prehaps you were moving away from the strengths and principals of your art and your character."

I was suggeting a thought. It doesn't sound too critical to me.
There is a difference between attacking someone and defending yourself. Fist ATTACKED in defense of property. Theres
nothing wrong with that.

As far as chair in the face, untrained folks blah blah.
If you've ever read my older posts you'd realize that
I consider some of the "untrained" much more
dangerous and unpredictable than alot of fellow MA's.

Also making a an aggressor miss with a punch or a kick
is considered a block. Passive or active defense is a must.
Self-defense not fighting is at the heart of the traditional arts IMO.

I like some of the observations about Karate blocks. They are deliberately structured to cause pain to an assailant.

[Spirit Writer]

Let me start off my saying that I am a friend of E-Fist. We studied Hung Gar and Wing Chun together, and when he had the opportunity to learn S Mantis with some Chinatown gangsters, he showed me some of what he learned -- at least what I could understand.
I was surfing with him that day, and let me say this: Those guys WERE pure *******s, and E-First was surfing in heavy surf for about 3 hours before they showed up and the hour that they could handle the heavy rip. I missed the entire episode, because I drifted a few beached because of the rip.
He never even told me what happened, I heard it from another friend who comes here every so often.
E-Fist is the first to say he was not happy with the fight, but I think some of you mis-evaluated the situation.
First: Where does E-Fist say anything about blocking?

And I quote: "My right HIT his outstreched arms as he chraged and I felt his weight. Stepped back and gave him a left."

As for WingChunKook, let me tell you one other thing about E-Fist -- and this is why I consider him a friend -- he is straight forward, no BS. I do not know anyone more willing to trade hands at anytime. Win or lose, he will give it all he has everytime.
I saw a big training partner knock him out. And when he came through, he insisted on one more round. That is the way he is. And, he is not bad either. The wing chun guys that he has beaten, were not middle America kooks either. I seen him man handle more then one Wing Chun guy from the Chinatown Freemasons. That might not mean anything to you in the OutBack, but for some guys living at the beach practicing MA, we were impressed that he even stepped to the plate.
So, he's the first to admit he has more to learn, but he's fight you in a second. And, though I haven't met you, my money would be on him because you'd have to kill him before he'd let a loud mouth like you beat him.
Read his post again. What did he do wrong? Hit, then hit while yielding. Break! Then a knock out.
Doesn't sound too bad to me.

[wufupaul]

Nice alter-ego, Evo. :rolleyes:

[Spirit Writer]

:) Never a constructive comment.
Brain surgean, may I suggest checking registration date?

[dezhen2001]

Wow - why all this beitching at EF? As i seem to recall he hasn't posted since the first page of this thread...

It's natural to analyze everything over and over, you can learn some lessons that way (i know i have in the past). But don't let it get in the way of you training. I remember when i was mugged and taken down by surprise that i basically just froze. When i was down the guy was leaning over me holding me down by my throat etc. and all i could do was protect my centreline so he couldn't hit me. For a while i completely lost faith in myself and my training. But i realised that it did it's job - i survived and had no injury. Maybe i was lucky? who knows? It took me a long time to get back in to my training with the correct mindset again...

Anyway, good luck with your training :)

david

[vingtsunstudent]

wow spirit writer(sounds like a sensitive new age phags name to me), you sound like his boyfriend.
i personally don't have a problem with e fist, i am just pionting out a few things that are the truth, if he takes them personally then i am sorry.
as for giving us the run down on the fact that he had been surfing for three hrs, well guess what, the other guy had been surfing too, as well as drinking. i'm sorry but that makes for an easier mark in my book.
he is not the first & definitely won't be the last to be disappionted in the way a fight went down, i can say from personal experience i have had to evaluate myself after many encounters, the main thing is to learn from them.
vts

[Kaitain(UK)]

vingtsunstudent - I think you're being a little harsh. As you know - we all build sandcastles and believe them to be indestructible until the rain falls and destroys them. Everyone has been or will be there and in all likelihood will go there again.

I undertstand that you're feeling vindicated over a previous discussion(/s) but it's better to be encouraging than disparaging. Luckily the rain came in and he survived - as you say, learning and evaluatiing from this experience are important.

[vingtsunstudent]

'he is not the first & definitely won't be the last to be disappionted in the way a fight went down, i can say from personal experience i have had to evaluate myself after many encounters, the main thing is to learn from them.'
sorry, i couldn't be bothered re-writing anything
like i said though
i really don't have anything againt him & do wish him and everybody else the best of luck in their search for the truth.
i still practice to get past many things i feel i did wrong in encounters from years ago.
vts

[Walter Joyce]

" i am just pionting out a few things that are the truth" vingtsunstudent
Really? Whose truth? Yours? The ultimate truth? The selective truth?
For one who claims to be always a beginner you sure are opinionated. For instance,
"wow spirit writer(sounds like a sensitive new age phags name to me), you sound like his boyfriend. "
Did I mention intolerant and ****phobic? Well let me.
Why don't you think a little more, take a deep breath, and write a little less.
Don't mistake intelligence or kindness for weakness, or anything else for that matter. And if you feel the need to focus that hypercritical gaze of yours, try focusing it inward.
Good training,
Walter

[vingtsunstudent]

'Did I mention intolerant and ****phobic? Well let me.
Why don't you think a little more, take a deep breath, and write a little less.'
touchy, touchy there aren't we walt.i knew i should have used the word mother instead of boyfriend.

'Really? Whose truth? Yours? The ultimate truth? The selective truth?'
thank you for giving me your version walt.

now walt, at what stage did what i have to say become your concern.
or did you just feel the need to vent some of your frustration.

'For one who claims to be always a beginner you sure are opinionated.'
well i guess you got me there being the beginner that i am, there are so many people out there that inspire me & you are yet another i must add to my list.

let me just finish with this, evo fist had plenty to tell me at one stage that he knew true wing chun & that he knew plenty about the reality of fighting. i'm sorry if he or anyone else can't handle a few words, esp. if they are negative(well sort of)
to spirit writer i do appoligise for my comments but odviously i'm not as witty & could never have come up with something as good as wingchunkook.
vts

[Walter Joyce]

Yes frustration is accurate. At what?
Well whether its on the mark for you or not, I think I can identify the source.

People who post in a negative fashion on a public board (yes, I am guilty at times, though usually as a reaction, as in my post to you). Disagreement is one thing, rancor is another.

martial artists who limit their training to the purely martial, without regard for elements of character, morality, or their effects on, and place in society. Look at the big picture from time to time, its fairly interesting.

people who offer opinion as fact (this I assiduously try to avoid) Most if not all of this post is pure opinion.

people who rely on stereotypes to make a point. Take your pick, gender, ethnicity, sexual orientation, political, religious, socio-economic. The list is endless. It shows a lack of effort in thought, perpetuates myths, and rarely advances a discussion in any real way.

people who post personal attacks on public boards (occasionally guilty, but not intentional) Take it private. If someone else starts in on you, take it private, two wrongs don't make a right. I do not see this post as personal, but general. I accept that I may be wrong in that assertion.

and people who won't admit the limits of their knowledge (I hope that I understand the limits of mine)

I guess I'm arguing for civility. I feel its critical among martial artists, and society as a whole.

Good training,
Walter

[vingtsunstudent]

'Yes frustration is accurate. At what?
Well whether its on the mark for you or not, I think I can identify the source.'

walt, i'm sorry but if your a lawyer i would have thought you might have researched your case a bit better.
have you done a search to see where evo fist made it quite clear with his thoughts on hardcore training & where he was at.
i don't think there is anything wrong with me thinking or saying that if he was trained anywhere near the level he has said in the past, that he should be easily able to deal with an attack like that.
and i am sorry i didn't give him a big hug & tell him it will be alright.
check his profile & see how long it says he's been training.
i worked the door for many years & believe me i could have got into a lot more fights if i was simply irritated by words.

'martial artists who limit their training to the purely martial, without regard for elements of character, morality, or their effects on, and place in society. Look at the big picture from time to time, its fairly interesting.

so you believe in the spirituality of the arts, that is good but is that your truth, the real truth, the ultimate truth, i think you get the piont.

again sorry walt but i think you missed where this all started.
again to evo, sorry for bringing up what you said in the past & if you wish to hold it against me then that is your right, if you wish to give me an ear bashing then i can accept that as well.
just keep training hard & enjoy your gung fu.
vts

[Kaitain(UK)]

I wasn't ragging on you or anything - I just feel that it's a bit churlish to nail someone when they've seen the light :)

I wasn't getting on a soap box or anything - I'm not that pious

[vingtsunstudent]

don't worry i understand & i'm sorry if my reply seemed otherwise.
vts

[Walter Joyce]

vingtsunstudent...please check your email.

Good training,
Walter

[Spirit Writer]

Easy there Wing Chun guy. First, let me say Ray has been requested to stop posting here, so he can focus on training. With that said, WingCHunGuy, read his post about this eno****er. HE DID NOT LOSE. In fact, did not even receive a clean hit. Insteda he struck the other cleanly three times unanswered and finished it.
Believe it or not, two days later at a party a Hung Gar guy -- drunk -- requested they traded hands. I was there for that one. Ray completely controlled the guy. But later, he told me again he was unhappy with his performance. I think the difference here, is that most would have come and posted about how they beat the crap out of some kook. Instead, my friend focused on his own perceived weaknesses so as to grow. Am I his "boyfriend"? Silly.
I'm his friend, and old training brother.

[greendragon]

Vingtsunstudent, watch out for those crazed attackers that've "been smoking pot" ! lol

[vingtsunstudent]

i will, cause you they're prone to bite. i'm sure you understand the munchies theory, very similar to the alpha male one or is that the reptilian brain one..........dohhhh.....better have another cone.
man they are so much harder to deal with than the ones on amphetamines or coke and the like.;) i hate the way they lull you into a false sense of security with all that 'peace dude $hit' and then 'BAM' all of a sudden your off your face or is that your face is off........damm.........just one more bong and i'm sure i'll enlighten myself.
vts

[Spirit Writer]

Yea, those blunt smoking guys in Brooklyn and Harlem, the ones pulling guns out and shooting people on the dance floor every weekend, what a heck of a 'bunch of peace loving guys. Definitely not like the hardcore guys I'm sure you guys are delaing with in Mississipi and the outback sticks. :rolleyes:

[guohuen]

I think Brother Ray only made two mistakes. First he didn't have backup which being outnumbered three to one was dangerous. Second was he has been critiqueing himself with his emotional mind rather than his wisdom mind.

[vingtsunstudent]

spirit writer
if you took just a little time you might realise i come from newcastle, approx. 7 minutes from the beach, you know way out in the sticks.
i would hope you know more about gung fu than surfing.
i've always found it best to just blow a kiss and ignore fools, then laugh even more at them when you refuse to play their game and they throw an even bigger tantrum.
hope that helped.
by the way i thought everything was bigger and more hardcore ...... whoops sorry ....... i meant better in texas.
anyways back to my little world where i will never know the meaning of what real street combat is.

sorry walter, i did get your e-mail and did appreciate it and what you had to say.

vts

[TenTigers]

frankly, I think it was pretty cheap to take shots at Ray for posting about his experience. I know he can be pretty opinionated, and such, but here he is asking for some valid assistance,and some of you just couldn't resist to take cheap shots-like vultures. now go away, or I shall taunt you a second timeh! It would seem to me that the people who had anything constructive to say were most likely the ones with real experience. Been there, done that, walked in those shoes, etc. The ones who stood safely on the sidelines throwing garbage, and talkin **** are usually the wanabes,Because those who have been there have all felt and experienced exactly what Ray did.
Bottom line, I believe that more active, less cooperative drills, andadrenal stress drills will help. Also taking just a few core movements ad drilling the *** out of them, untill it becomes an automatic response.
New students always ask me how long it takes to become street effective. I answer them by throwing a focus mit at them. When they catch it, I ask them how many times they have caught a ball-in their lives, from the time Daddy sat on the floor with you and rolled a ball at you,placing your hands on it to feel the movement, to bouncing and catching, to throwing and catching. How many times until it became a natural response? So how many times should one drill a technique untill it becomes a natural response-under pressure? Isn't that the essense behind Hsing-Yi-and all martial arts? It is called mo-wai.