Kung Fu Opinions

[JFK]

Hi all!

I am a shotokan karate practitioner and came to these forums to ask for some opinions.

Usually people are very biased towards their own MA. I guess I too have a bias toward shotokan, since that is what i practice. However , i do discuss and think about other MAs.

My question is this: What to Kung Fu people think of Shotokan Karate?

THanks for your Responses!

[ewallace]

Welcome to the forum.

Well, I took shotokan for little over a year when I was about 10 years old. I thought it was okay, but the day I stepped into a shaolin longfist school I realized that I'd been wasting my time.

Just my .02

[red5angel]

JFK - Why dont you tell us a little bit about Shotokan. I studied Shorin Ryu for a while but am not familiar with Shotokan.

[old jong]

I know that I would not like a good gyaku tsuki from a 4th dan in the solar plexus!
;)
Done by a traditionaly trained guy, these things can hurt!

[dezhen2001]

Hi JFK :)

I studied Shotokan for 13 years before i met my present Sifu. Personally, i would say that my experiences there gave me a good foundation in general MA practise. Kata Bunkai and Oyo Bunkai were covered as well as competition sparring, which was fun (knockdown and points).
it develops strong stances, strong forearms and is powerful if you train it correctly (meaning application of kata here, not just competition). Strikes, locking, throwing etc. are all there if you examine the kata... but many people do not. I think the UK has a very strong Shotokan background, with the likes of Sensei Enoeda, Ohta and many other KUGB seniors like Frank Brennan, Terry O'Neil etc. I enjoyed and learned many things during my time training (my favourite katas were Bassai Dai, Kanku Dai, Nijushiho, Enpi and Unsu) :)

But, although i trained a long time, when i met my Sifu i found that 'thing' i had been looking for. I just knew Wing Chun was the right thing for me. My Sensei had retired from teaching by then, and i was learning from some 'seniors' (by grade though i had more actual skill than them), so basically i told my Sensei this and left to train with my Sifu.

good luck with your training!

david

[JFK]

Here is some info about shotokan for the person who asked:

Shotokan is recognizable by its linear, direct punching, blocking, and kicking from low stances. Shotokan emphasizes correct posture, correct joint alignment, and formality of basic technique above all else. The Shotokan expert is expected to perform using strictly defined basic techniques even under harsh conditions. Creativity and free-lancing are not rewarded in Shotokan. Basic techniques are defined to the last detail, and performing them properly is given the highest priority.

The Shotokan view is that purity of raw technique is most important. The idea behind this is that one elegant technique mastered so completely that it is as natural as flipping a light switch will finish off the opponent quickly and efficiently. In situations where there are multiple opponents, such an ability is believed essential because there may not be time to throw more than one technique per opponent, and grappling and getting tangled up with your adversary when two others are also trying to harm you is probably unwise. Therefore, each karate technique is maximized at the expense of learning more complicated defenses in Shotokan training. Later, after technical execution development has begun to plateau after years of training, more complicated defenses can be uncovered from the kata.

When attacking, the Shotokan expert will drive directly forward with straight punches and kicks while sweeping at the ankles to unbalance the retreating opponent. Shotokan experts are familiar with other types of techniques, but they generally avoid them unless they feel secure in their superior firepower.

When attacked, Shotokan fighters stand their ground. They may shift one step to the side in order to flank the attacker, but the most common defense used is a pre-emptive strike against an incoming opponent. While Shotokan is simple, predictable, and lacking in a wide variety of motions, the few techniques are designed to be mastered to such a high degree of precision and ease of use that they become extremely effective weapons.

Shotokan Karate experts are required to learn between 15 and 26 different kata, depending on which faction of the Shotokan factions they are studying under.

[JFK]

ewallace:

what made you think you were wasting your time, and what are the advantages of your new school?

[JFK]

david:

thanks for the reply.

SInce you have studied both styles maybe could list some Pros/Cons
for each one?

whats has mad you stick to wing chun?

-Thanks-
JFK

[red5angel]

You may also find alot of converts on this kung fu forum from karate, just because it is a kung fu forum. For instance I had a really good experience in as much as when I was taking karate, the school and instruction was top notch! But I found wing chun and it was love at first site, it just seemed to suit me better. I would never shoo anyone away from Karate though if they wanted to try it.

[MaFuYee]

why not try some other schools, that way you can make a comparative decision yourself. - too often, people take only one style, and become convinced it's the best, having nothing to compare it to.

i say, take at least 3-5 years to find the right school. - then go for it 100%.

[ewallace]

This was a long time ago. I am no longer at the shaolin school (or the state it was in for that matter, although I would highly recommend the school to those in that area).

The principals and movements just made more sense to me with N. shaolin longfist (NSL). I disliked the "force vs. force" aspect of shotokan. Plus they really pounded our bodies at the NSL place. I felt like I was really learning how to fight much better there. I will remind you however that I was only in shotokan for a year, so I may have drawn an incorrect assumption of the style.

It really felt like there was a caste system in regards to belt rank. They placed far too much emphasis on your belt color there. The class was thru the park district so it may not have been a very good one. All I know is that it left a rather sour taste in my mouth and I wouldn't go back to another shotokan school.

[greendragon]

JFK, nothing personal, i can tell you are sincere and intelligent, but.. i have sparred with almost every style imaginable and shotokan were the second most easily beaten. probably because of the rigidity you mentioned. I recommend you read bruce Lee's Tao of jeet kune do. Still,I have the utmost respect for the Tiger and many times when advancing to a higher level in some styles we are asked to shed our previous teachings when they have served their purpose. Watch your Sensei's actions as much as hearing his words.

[Crimson Phoenix]

And now I come up with the question burning everyone's lips ( I do suspect you turned your sentence as a bait for that question though hehehe):
WHAT THE HELL WAS THE STYLE MOST EASILY BEATEN THEN??
Woohhoo, it feels good hehhe

Now I'm bracing myself for the answer...

[greendragon]

Sorry Crimson, i thought you would have known. TaeKwanDo.

[yu shan]

I`ve had my bell rung a few times by yuz guys, along time ago.

[Wu-Xing]

sorry to be an ass , but heres how much i think of karate.

.

[ged]

theres a few guys at my kung fu school who have done other styles before. one guy, who im absolutely petrified of (hes a great guy, but his skill is amazing) did karate for a few years, a long time ago. i also have a friend who did karate (he was one of those 12 year old black belts *derisive laugh*) but, although he hasnt done it for about 5 years, can still block almost any punch you throw at him.

against someone who's studied kung fu for a long time, i have no doubt that they wouldnt fare so well... im just pointing out that karate, in my experience, provides very good basics. both of these people have also told me they believe that karate is a good art to start off in as a kid, moving into kung fu later on.

[Mr Punch]

I've been shown a bit of shotokan and have practised the first two kata (long time ago, forget the names) so I know nothing at all about it!!:D I did however, practise an offshoot (Zen Shin Ryu) for 9 months solid, 3 years or so on and off. And I've sparred with a lot of shotokan guys.

I found them too rigid. My wing chun worked very nicely (they couldn't handle the short range stuff at all) and my aiki too (I wasn't there long enough and easily tied up or took out their over-locked arms!). BUT, I don't think they were very good at their art!!

The thing that makes me wonder about the style is: when you look at pictures of Funakoshi in the late twenties/early thirties when he developed the style, his stances were always more compact. He was a little higher, but with bent and flexible knees, not unlike a boxing stance. It was only later that the big, leggy, locked stances came in... WHY??!:confused:

Wasn't it Funakoshi who said that if you put a three-year karate guy in with a three-year kungfu guy the karate guy will win out of sheer force, but if you put the same guys in after ten years the karate guy won't be able to touch the kungfu guy and the kungfu guy will win...? Something like that.

[Jimbo]

I also came from a karate background. I studied Kenpo and Japanese Shi-to-ryu. Shi-to-ryu has some characteristics similar to both Shotokan and Goju-ryu. All in all, it was a good way for me to start out in martial arts. The Kenpo school I trained at was not at all a tournament school; the emphasis was a lot on conditioning and fighting, and the instructor often would play disco music during training (this was in the heart of the disco era of the '70s). :) The Shi-to-ryu was very 'traditional' hard-core Japanese style under a different instructor. For a period I was doing both at the same time, secretly going from one class, changing uniforms and going to the other (my Kenpo teacher knew I did both and thought it was cool, but my Japanese sensei did not know).

When I began kung fu in 1985, I found it's a lot more natural for me than either karate styles I studied, although they gave me a great all-around experinece base. And for me, kung fu can not only give one hard-core workouts, but can evolve into an activity I can continue to improve at for the rest of my life.
Jim

[Mr Punch]

I have a friend who did shotokan for a long time. Then, a long time ago, he got hit by a car travelling at about 70 miles an hour. He bounced over it, got caught in the back bumper, and dragged about 15 metres up the road (according to a police eye-witness - dunno how the hell he survived myself...! Ended up with a plastic knee-cap and a metal splint in his arm).

Of the incident he said to me, "Looking back, I wish I'd have spent as much time doing aiki as I had doing shotokan... at least I might have got out the way! I turned and saw the headlights coming - AND BLOCKED!!!"

I always preferred the kungfu (and aiki) tactics of not meeting force head-on...:p ;)

[respectmankind]

karate is good for hard strikes. but a styel does not make a fighter.

[gazza99]

Hello,
While I have the utmost respect for anyone who can make shotokan work in a fight I do not believe it to be even close to one of the best options. Greendragon pretty much covered my points....thanks.....
Oh, I could say why I think this way......your questions have been cordial and intelligent, so I will try and do you the same courtesy.....

1.fluidity-they have none -PERIOD-

2.Power-they have only external power, which can be extremely lacking in comparison even for good players (yes its obvious from observation if you are hitting something/someone)

3. Its not good for your body, especially over time. Ive even seen old karate masters revert to being loose, but the students could not figure out why they were so powerfull.

4. Too rigid which creates a number of problems...see numbers 1- 3, also doesnt help sensitivity much, and allows their center to be sensed and taken from them very quickly upon contact.

5 "creativity and freelancing is not rewarded" This brings me to my next point. If one is not able to adapt by instinct, feel, and do it without thinking, then no set of pre-programed 1-300 responses will save you in a fight, some statements made elude that you are aware of the reaction thing, but your logic is extremely flawed. What You really want is to program the right principle of movement, the right sensitivity, and right explosive and violent acts it takes to eliminate said attacker without having to do your dojo move perfectly*, ive got news for you, it will hardly ever go perfectly no matter how hard you try, an attacker is not usually very cooperative in this manner. (soo endeth the rant)

Kind regards,
Gary R.

[dezhen2001]

wow - a lot of posts here since last night! :)

JFK: I trained in Shotokan since i was 8 up until i was 20/21 (i wasn't one of those 12yr old black belts either... i stayed at 1st Kyu since i was 15 :p). For the last 5 years of my training or so, i also did a few different systems at the same time. The main ones being Boxing/Muay Thai, Aikido and Shorinki Kempo.

The thing was, i was and still am a real skinny guy (5'11" and around 147lbs). I couldn't 'meet force with force', so was using more tai sabaki and things like nagashi uke etc. when i sparred. This is what led me to boxing and aikido etc. The idea of footwork and body movement to get out of the way of things :D It just generally wasn't stressed so much in class, which is why i spent a lot of time in other systems and working on Kata Bunkai.

Well, when i saw my Sifu (pretty much by accident), i realised that wing chun was what i had been looking for. It doesn't use force against force, uses footwork and positioning, close in distance which is useful, and uses relaxation and sticking as well as flowing/natural principles. (not that shotokan doesn't have any of those of course). That way i don't need to be strong and tough, coz i'm definately not! :D

Actually, after competing a lot in the past (with Karate, Boxing and MT), i've kinda just changed. Nowadays i mainly train in Qigong (coz i really love it and want to learn more about it) and Wing Chun (to develop my skill).

Anyway, like i said - i think Shotokan is great, it gave me a really stong base, a real foundation in MA. But then i just moved on to what was more 'me' i guess...

good luck with your training :)

david

[DelicateSound]

The question is subjective, depending on wheter you are talking about good Karate, or bad Karate.

I have seen Karate that is strong, powerful, fluid and not at all linkied with the X-Y syndrome.

I don't know if it was Shotokan.

On the other hand I've seen very bad Karate. 90%of what I've seen is "bad" Therefore the statement "Karate people can't fight" is true about 90% of the time.

[Ky-Fi]

Hey, all this talk about Karate made me do a web search and find the school I trained at when I was in high school in the mid 80's----glad to see they are still going strong:

http://pages.slic.com/ichiban/

I trained Karate for 3 years in high school, and go my 2nd dgree green belt. The system we did was based on Shotokan, but it was an American system, and we were encouraged to use anything that worked. I remember for one of my belt tests, for the self defense section we would stand at attention and one of the black belts would circle you and then come at you full speed, grabbing your wrists or lapels or something, and you had to get out. For one of the wrist grabs, I used chin na that I had learned from Willy Lin's book, and it worked out well and that type of thing was encouraged. We did a LOT of heavy sparring--full protective equipment, light contact to the head, full contact to the body.

As far as the "rigidness" of Karate, I would tend to disagree a bit. I would certainly agree that in my CMA training, relaxation has been emphasized more, but in Karate no one ever said "tighten up more!". If you do a lot of hard sparring, you learn pretty quick that a relaxed body functions better. I think it's more a case that a lot of people (maybe most) are not particularly naturally athletic. I've played a lot of sports, and you see people who are stiff, akward and unfluid in EVERY sport. I don't think this is much more so with Karate. Just look at the percentage of kids in high school who are top athletes, and look at the smaller percentage who reach a high level in college sports, and the even smaller amount that play pro. People who are wonderfully relaxed, powerful, coordinated and skilled are VERY rare in any physical endeavor.

But, the difference I've found in CMA is that everthing has been analyzed, explained and pondered at a MUCH deeper level--at least in my experience. The way power is generated, the different types of jing, the coordination of breathing, relaxation, focus, body mechanics---the whole "qi" paradigm----I"ve found to be IMMENSELY useful and profound. I used to find Karate katas rather dull---but CMA forms I find really interesting, and they just feel good to do.

I don't really have a negative opinion of JMA, though. And I think you have to be really careful making any generalizations. I studied Karate for 3 years, and CMA for almost 5 now, and that's not a lot in either art----also, I"ve only trained at 2 schools. There is so much variation between styles, schools and individual teachers, that I'm a bit dubious when people are satisfied with their conclusions on the differences between arts----when their opinions are based on experience from a VERY tiny percentage of teachers and schools.