COMPLETELY OT: Brilliant Policy Article-- Pls Don't Delete!

[Merryprankster]

The following is a BRILLIANT analysis of policy differences with respect to Europe and the US. This is why history is important folks--trend identification. It helps us understand general mindsets if not specific circumstances.

http://www.policyreview.org/JUN02/kagan.html

[DelicateSound]

Every time Europe is mentioned [i.e: the use of "Europeans"] it should actually refer to every country with the exception of France.

France does not:


approach problems with greater nuance and sophistication

It lies in the street and begs for it to go away.

"Freddie France" is the small child with glasses and acne that used to get frequently bullied. "Freddie" will follow the time honoured tradition of lying on the floor and allowing itself to be beaten senselessly for a while, then once a stronger child like "Bertie Britain" has walked across from the football field and beaten off the bully, "France" will suck up to the bully, allowing it to control its supply of pocket money for the next few decades.

:D

[DelicateSound]

Although statistically, the Royal Marine Corps are still the best special forces in the world.

That said, your regular forces would p!ss all over us.

[DelicateSound]

Actually, some of it is bollocks. Like:


Europeans have concluded, reasonably enough, that the threat posed by Saddam Hussein is more tolerable for them than the risk of removing him

And:


The incapacity to respond to threats leads not only to tolerance but sometimes to denial. It’s normal to try to put out of one’s mind that which one can do nothing about. According to one student of European opinion, even the very focus on “threats” differentiates American policymakers from their European counterparts. Americans, writes Steven Everts, talk about foreign “threats” such as “the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction, terrorism, and ‘rogue states.’” But Europeans look at “challenges,” such as “ethnic conflict, migration, organized crime, poverty and environmental degradation.”

A lot of the above is due to immediate focus. Europe has BIG problems with ethnic conflict and migration. US seems to have accepted it. Country of immigrants. [no disrespect]

As for the environment. GWB is a twat on that one.


For Iraq and other “rogue” states objectively do not pose the same level of threat to Europeans as they do to the United States

On a world-level true. On a local level no. Many Asian fundamentalists cause trouble all the time over here.


Both Europeans and Americans agree that these are primarily American problems.

Only cause the US actively involves itself. Europe never will as not all countries would agree. And what's with this "Europe". BIT of a generalisation me thinks. The UK is always the first to back up the US. France on the other hand...........




Mmm. After reading this twice now MPS I change my mind. SOme of it is too generalised to be of value.

Labelling Europe as "one" is bullcrap. Forgetting that in each country there are different viewpoints is bullcrap. Omitting the record of British involvement in major conflicts is bullcrap. France may lie down like a dog but I'm proud to stand tall.

In many ways Brits are more like Yanks than we are like the frogs or Krauts.

[Merryprankster]

DS,

This is the thing that I cannot make people understand--it seems so obvious to me but the article explains the "why's"

The attack on the US was an attack on the West. I don't mean that literally--the West isn't in danger. But Al Qaeda was targetting Blue Jeans and Blaupunkt as much as it was lashing out against the US.

The fact that the US is the most visible symbol of Blue Jeans and Blaupunkt (collectively--I'm aware that Blaupunkt is a German engineering product) is what makes us always on our guard.

He could not have been more accurate about the Hobbesian world the US lives in. However, he should have gone one step further by pointing out that not all organizations, including states and non-state actors, are rational ones.

DS--of COURSE it's generalized. He's drawing some common themes. You'll have to make some allowances for that. It'd be like saying on average, men are bigger than women, and then arguing that the argument is invalid because many women are bigger than men. It's generalized, but not overly so, methinks.

[DelicateSound]

Yep, the attack wasn't against the US so much as against capitalism. Against globalisation.

Bin Laden was probably peeved that he couldn't get a Sony Vaio in 17" screen over in Tora-Bora, the hypocritical capitalist knob. :p

No, not all states are rational.

To be honest, a lot of that article REALLY wound me up. It is from a very strong US viewpoint. It does explain the causes well, but by labelling me as a European I really got enraged.

Hell, I hate to be called a Brit. I am English. NOT British. English.

Do not be under the pretense that all Europeans are peaceful and meek, because believe me, in the next 20 years a fascist power will once again rise in Europe somewhere.

I hate fascism. I hate racism, but in almost every European country there is a strong movement for it. Mainly because of extensive immigration. Many countries feel they have lost their identity.

Now I have MANY friends of all nationalities, but I must admit some of the comments I have heard from people in support of Bin Laden have made be want to kill.

Believe me, Europe for all it's multi-cultural pascifity [sp?] will lash out. In a way that really scares me.

[DelicateSound]

And you added that last bit in......:p

[Merryprankster]

But you can still make some generalizations about overarching political views--especially when discussing a "state" vice a smaller group of people. Is it the very best thing in the world? No. But it's like statistical sampling. You don't have to interview EVERYBODY--you get a sample and make some generalizations, with a margin for error, based on that.

He made some basic generalizations about the European mindset that weren't far off the mark, in much the same way that he made some generalizations about the US mindset that weren't far off the mark. Those generalizations will be insufficient to discuss political differences between individuals--or even regions, but can provide some insight into over-arching decision-making framework.

This kind of work is important, but it has to be realized that it's a tool, like any other, and a tool used for the wrong job is useless.

Great for a general discussion of US vice European way of approaching politics. Awful for discussing, say your opinion vs mine.

[Water Dragon]

Problem is Merry, the article was written with a definate bias toward the European mindset. In fact, I'll say the bias was strong enough to not allow for an honest comparison.

Good for starting a discussion, but that's about it.

[Merryprankster]

That's funny. Delicate thinks it was written with a heavy US mindset. I think it's balanced. THAT'S a good article. :)

[Black Jack]

Excellent find Merry

[DelicateSound]

Waterdragon - how much of it did you read? Not to sound cheeky, but I feel that the later sections make us out to be a bunch of pu$$ies. :D

In a way, the US is in a better position. Over there you've all rallied around the flag. The USA has this strange effect on immigrants. People from all over the world enter and become American.

On my last visit I was speaking to an Indian shop owner in Denver. I asked him where he was from and he said "I am from here". He said that he was an American by law and so an American by heart.

In Europe that does not happen. At all. There is a lot of conflict over here about that and my feeling is that one day it'll explode. It very nearly did in France.

Although it is true to say that Europeans are more sophisticated. :D

Especially the English.....

[ReverendTim]

I'm glad this debate got restarted, because the U.S. took a lot of heat for being shallow the last time it went around.

And yet, when I was listening to the BBC this morning, no less than 40 minutes of the hour broadcast was about SOCCER!!!*

They cut from correspondent to correspondent in different locations (France, Senegal, Korea)...it really made the O.J. trial coverage seem a little less sensationalized by comparison.

Maybe we're NOT the only shallow nation in the world. "Hello, pot? It's kettle. You're black."

--
Rev. Tim

*Yes, I know y'all call it football, but I'm feeling snarky tonight.

[rogue]

"On my last visit I was speaking to an Indian shop owner in Denver. I asked him where he was from and he said "I am from here". He said that he was an American by law and so an American by heart."

He gets it! :D

"Although it is true to say that Europeans are more sophisticated.

Especially the English....."

Hmmm, lets see. Warm beer, driving on the wrong side of the road, Benny Hill, the Spice Girls, the House of Commons...
Yup very sophisticated. Though the Savoy is a very nice place to stay.

[Merryprankster]

TTT for the philosophers and thinkers on this forum!!!!

And those with an interest in International Affairs.

[dragontounge2]

:)

[Merryprankster]

You're kidding, right?

PLEASE tell me you're kidding.

[dragontounge2]

Im far from kidding go to the link.

[ReverendTim]

Man, and here I just wasted all my good New World Order stuff on that other thread.

Figures.

--
Rev. Tim

[Merryprankster]

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that star the symbol for a swordmaker? Some connection to Spanish steel, as I recall. Which makes sense if you know anything about history....

When I say you're kidding, I'm doing it with a look of incredulity, not earnest concern.

Please tell me you aren't learning this in Public School.

[dragontounge2]

:)

[Merryprankster]

That's not a pentagram. It's a star of david. I believe there was a historically jewish swordmaker in Spain that once used that to identify his work.

[dragontounge2]

There is a pentagram in side the star! order the D@mn magazine, Dont be so nieve.

[Merryprankster]

Take a course in rhetoric. Failing that, philosophy.


It will teach you how to think critically.

[dragontounge2]

Thinking critically and be nieve are very different. But I wouldnt call you nieve since you are practicing martial arts. Most people think it'lll never happen to me.

[rogue]

The jigs up Merry, he's on to our conspiracy. Warm up the black helicopter and we'll pay him a visit.

dragontounge2. that's a joke, we don't use the black helicopters anymore, we use Dodge caravans. Here's a secret, beware of the strange contrails. ;)

[Merryprankster]

I practice martial arts for fun. I don't do it because I'm worried about being attacked.

Thinking critically is the first step in not being naive. It keeps you from reaching fantastic conclusions based on flimsy connections and poor research.

UGH. I can't believe I'm going to do this, but I'll check my sword when I get home...

[dragontounge2]

Belive what you will, but dont make fun of me.

Check the sword.

[Merryprankster]

dragontounge2,

It's hard NOT to make fun of you. You're asking us to believe something that's akin to believing that the Jews and the Illuminati run the world, or that the signs in Revelation are currently being fulfilled.

[dragontounge2]

Thats not what I mean at all. Im just saying that We dont fight for our land. We fight for masonic intrests in todays agenda.
You dont have to listen to me i shouldnt have brought it up I was just looking for points of view & I got them. But thanks for the good conversation:).

[Merryprankster]

Oh trust me---you haven't convinced me of anything other than a possible lack of critical thinking skills.

Preliminary research on the web indicates nothing that looks like a pentagram, but the pictures weren't as clear as looking at the real thing would be.

[dragontounge2]

I didnt try to convince you...but a wise man never gets bit by the same snake twice...:eek:

[Merryprankster]

A wise man avoids snake-infested areas.

[dragontounge2]

IS that some of your critical thinking skills? You never know where a snake is going to pop up from but your chances are much higher in a jungle or bushy terrian.

[Merryprankster]

Sigh.

Subtlety is lost.

Never mind.

[dragontounge2]

I cant grasp your complex thinking:rolleyes:

[dragontounge2]

I dont want to make any enemies soo just take what you want from my opinion but check your sword and if it is the same model in the catalog youll share the same. Perhaps

[Merryprankster]

A wise man recognizes a maze of bad assumptions and insupportable conclusions backed by poor or non-existant evidence, and doesn't bother himself with that line of argument when others are more plausible.

[Merryprankster]

Let me be more precise. Persuade me that US interests and its projection of power abroad are Masonic, and provide me evidence that supports how this came to be.

[dragontounge2]

:)

[Merryprankster]

Never mind. Next you'll be telling me that the Rockefellers and Rothschilds are members of the inner circle who control the world via the IMF and the world bank, via yearly Bilderberg meetings.

Yes I know what the verisign chip is.

No, it's not the mark of the beast.
Yes, I realize it's a form of electronic ID.
No, that doesn't mean it fulfills the requirements in book of revelations.

I just got off the phone with my best friend, who is coming over to watch the Holyfield-Rahman fight tonight. I asked her to check her sword blade for me.

The star of david insignia is found on military regulation patterned swords, at least for the Marines, Navy and Coast Guard.

The symbol inside the star of david is a circle surrounding a fleur de lis. NOT a pentagram.

I guess, really, if we're going to discuss this, I'd prefer that it be on the forum, and not by PM. I think there's real value in open discussion.

[dragontounge2]

:)

[dragontounge2]

:)

[Merryprankster]

It's a fleur de lis. I'm going to believe my own sword, and my friend before I'll trust a picture.

My point is that even if it IS a pentagram from that company, not ALL the swords produced have them. If there were REALLY a secret Masonic connection, then it stands to reason that ALL the swords would have this as part of their etching pattern.

The best you could do at all is to say that the company that provides the swords for Atlanta Cutlery has a secret Masonic connection--and to say that based on such flimsy evidence is poor reasoning.

Secondly, the treatise you had me read was an argument that Freemasonry and Christianity are not the same thing. This does nothing to support your claim that Masonic goals are the primary thrust of US policy or force projection.

Yes, I'm aware that George Washington was a Freemason. So, probably, were others. Many more were Deists.

Benjamin Disraeli was Jewish--does that make current British Foreign Policy a tool of Zionist interests?

[Merryprankster]

Ah, I see I am now arguing with the smiley faced bandit.

Very well---

Have at thee Scoundrel!!! :P

[dragontounge2]

Im sorry.:( I wish i could have had a private conversation with you but I dont feel comftorable disscusing this on the forum.

[Merryprankster]

To paraphrase Colin Powell--Don't become so attached to your ideas that when they are attacked, you are too.

The purpose of any argument is discussion and enlightenment. We'll all take something away from it. That doesn't mean that it won't get heated, or that real enmity between parties doesn't result. I like to think that as adults, however, we can all look beyond that sort of enmity, and recognize that just because somebody doesn't agree with us, that doesn't make them stupid.

Now, being stupid, in and of itself, is something again entirely :)

I don't think you're stupid, but I do think that you need to do an awful lot of reading, and see if the things you read coorborate the statements w/regards to Masonic interests. Consider the source in all things, and learn to distinguish between something well researched and reported, and something that is inflammatory and shifty, at best.

I'm mildly well educated on this subject, but not so much so that I can't learn more. Hence my request for further information.

I don't think US motives are as pure as a virgin, but I don't think they're the result of a Masonic conspiracy either :)

Cheers, and no hard feelings.

[rogue]

You can PM him now Merry, Watchman is scanning his keystrokes and Black Jack is listening in using the laser on the window. By the way, ixnay on the illumanat iay.

Rogue control out.

[Merryprankster]

LOL at rogue!!!

[rogue]

Sorry it took so long Merry but gosh darn Elvis let Hoffa out again and Black Jack and I had to bring them back.

[NorthernMantis]

The attack on the US was an attack on the West

Actually in was an attack on the world. People form 70+ countries died, or so I heard from the news. That's a lot of countires and a lot of different people. :(

[Merryprankster]

Would somebody read the article and post something to get this back on topic PLEEEZE!! Or I'll die laughing from Rogue :)

[Shooter]

I'll put the wheels back on your thread if you'll join us in the chatroom..

[NorthernMantis]

Already did

[Merryprankster]

Shooter, I'd love to, but I can't. I'm in the process of wrapping up my work so I can go home and watch Holyfield-Rahman. You might want to check out the TaiChi Forum--I got your back :D

Perhaps some other day....

NP--I agree that it was an attack on the world, but they wouldn't have flown a plane into a Japanese skyscraper--unless Japan were the "western" power :)

[Shooter]

OK..no problem.

Yeah I saw that. Thanks, man. :p

[Merryprankster]

Sorry :)

Actually....this is my last post.

Cheers and good night all!

[Ky-Fi]

"The psychology of weakness is easy enough to understand. A man armed only with a knife may decide that a bear prowling the forest is a tolerable danger, inasmuch as the alternative — hunting the bear armed only with a knife — is actually riskier than lying low and hoping the bear never attacks. The same man armed with a rifle, however, will likely make a different calculation of what constitutes a tolerable risk. Why should he risk being mauled to death if he doesn’t need to? "

Wow----very profound analogy. Excellent article. Thanks, Merryprankster.

[Merryprankster]

Thanks! I thought it was a rare find as well. I used to do a LOT of research in Policy Review (it's a periodical) back in College.... and most aren't as well written as this.

Good writing is hard to find at all levels.

[rogue]

If a state has physical power over another they can choose to dictate terms, if a one state is weak or both competitors are equal and the cost of conflict too high they will negociate.

Europe (excluding the UK) is weak, as is the PLO and Arab states. The US, UK and Isreal are strong, they can choose either force or dictate terms while using diplomacy.

[Serpent]

But what about the basic teachings of martial arts? The more knowledge you have, the stronger you are, the better you can fight... the less you ever need to fight. In martial arts we learn to fight so that we don't have to; the more confident we are, the less likely we are to get picked on.

In the light of the discussions in this thread (and recent events) that doesn't seem to be the case on a global level. Sup with that? :confused:

Comments?

[Merryprankster]

There is a big difference between a "person" as an entity, and a "state," as an entity.

Secondly, there are very real things at stake, trade, etc that directly effect the state. It's not unlike if somebody starts threatening your business or stealing your stuff. It's an oblique attack.

Unlike in the personal world, there is no final arbiter. There is no international court that has a binding word (although we sometimes like to pretend).

Instead of a civilized society of states, picture something more like tribal councils and you'll have a more accurate description of international relations.