Would this trick work in a street fight? [Archive]

Merryprankster

05-31-2002, 03:23 PM

No Old Jong--the problem is that if he goes straight for the eye-gouge without paying attention to his balance, he's going to get dumped on his ass. In the transition, it's not certain he's going to be in a position to attack the eyes, whereas he is quite definately now on the ground.

If he DOES defend the bear hug, THEN attacks the eye-gouge, yes, it might work.

Lastly, somebody did try to eye-gouge me in a wrestling match once because he was angry. His finger went quite deep, and my depth perception was shot. He lost anyway. Once I've made contact, I don't have to see to grapple.

respectmankind

05-31-2002, 03:57 PM

merry, no offense to you, or grappling in general, but a eye gouge isn't going to be stopped by me falling. i don't care how many scenerios you come up with. what is most likely to happen is injury on the part of both, and the most serious on the person who was gouged. now ofcorase you can always roll your head to get away from an eye gouge, which is why it would really depend on the speed of the attack. but meh. i like the world of eye shots don't stop a wrestler. how do i join? (sorry about sounding like an ass)

Merryprankster

05-31-2002, 04:07 PM

Yup, you don't know what you're talking about.

But we're all entitled to our opinions.

I'm going to try and explain this one more time--you cannot eyegouge properly without control of my head. You're not in control of my head if I'm taking you down.

If you want to attend your balance first and eye-gouge secondly, great. But if you are planning on pulling this off as you are lifted or bent over backwards, then you are mistaken.

Leonidas

05-31-2002, 04:14 PM

Who the f*** has the stomach for that? Eeew......thumb deep in an eye socket.........

....and that is a gay bear hug, if he's bent over like that for whatever reason just grab his head and introduce his face into your knee.

I would use a well placed headbutt to the snot machine though.

respectmankind

05-31-2002, 04:20 PM

I can't not accept a challenge, sad thing about being an *******. :( . now. do you really think because you aretaking me down, that a finger, attached to a limb, with free movement that is not there only if ballance is there could not move with you head. let me explain this and as many times as needed (although i am sure YOU know what YOUR talking about (implying you know what is going on in your head)) i have joints, that allow my arms more mobility that your neck provides for your head, at some point, you will have to withdraw unless you want a finger in your eye. let me illistrate. ( * ) (======(
(
(
(

see?

Merryprankster

05-31-2002, 04:34 PM

It actually looks more like a ***** taking aim at a bunghole :) That's not directed at you, I promise.

I grapple--it's what I do. I don't tell people their knee strikes and pheonix eye strikes won't work and what not because I don't know.

I'm telling you that if you don't have control of my head, digging around in my eye socket is not going to be an easy task. If I'm in the process of moving you around because I'm controlling your hips (center) you are going to have a hard time doing this, especially if I'm uprooting you and dropping you on your back/ass/head. You ever wrestled a dog?

Can it work? Absolutely. What are the odds? VERY LOW if you aren't defending the takedown first. This is a classic mistake, just like wrestlers who drop their hands and stick their heads out saying "please knock me out!!!"

I have a very healthy respect for fishhooks, gouging and biting. They definitely have their place in the arsenal. This isn't it.

I'm working probability here, and rather than put stock in an eye gouge, defend the takedown first, follow-up afterwards.

rubthebuddha

05-31-2002, 04:37 PM

eye gouges are a great weapon, but as someone who avoids grappling at all costs (unless my girlfriend is over), i don't think an eye-gouge will work for crap. if the grappler knows how to shoot and takedown, and you're going for a precise movement against a difficult target (eye socket) with a very flimsy weapon (thumb or finger), your chances aren't good. think merryprankster is right -- you are going to get dumped. i believe you need to get your opponent's head somewhat controlled and your own balance well stabilized before you go for such a low-percentage shot.

and that's what it is -- a shot. if you're alreay rolling in the mud with them and you get a hand on face, dig that digit in and tickle their insides with it. however, if you're trying to poke a moving target with a weak weapon that will probably break unless the technique is near-perfectly successful, you've broken a thumb and you probably just got dumped buy someone who's now going to tickle your insides, but it won't be in your head and it won't be with their finger. :eek:

respectmankind

05-31-2002, 04:40 PM

thats all i wanted to hear, i disagree abit but meh. and i do agree that defending the take down is more important lest the strike fail and in general letting a take down just happen is like saying here is my ass and don't worry about vaseline, i like it rough.

Merryprankster

05-31-2002, 04:45 PM

re: grappling--

The Dog Brothers have a fantastic take on this:

Grappling happens

I think that's a good way to sum it up.

By the way, sorry to come across like an ass myself. I've had a long day at work, and you didn't deserve that :)

But, yeah, I think things like that have their place. Ironically, the person with better grappling skill will be in a better position to do such things, because they will tend to have better control over their opponents movement--but that is just my opinion.

Just for the record, this kind of stuff is the sort of thing that reflects poorly on Martial Arts. It's the sort of stuff that I classify as "long on tricks, short on fighting skill."

Good stuff to know--but no substitute for real skill.

Ryu

05-31-2002, 04:50 PM

I have eyegouged someone in a fight before. First of all, if you don't do it with 100% intent you're just going to make him mad. Second, even if you do gouge with 100% intent, and succeed in blinding him, now he's going to do everything he can to kill you. That's human nature. Very few real fighters will fall over holding their face screaming "oh! My eye!"
I'm not trying to be a jerk here....just that human beings can be a lot tougher than you think when their lives are on the line. And when you blind someone.... you're basically threatening their lives in the opinions of a lot of fighters out there. Including me.

Eye gouging will work. However, what is being said here is that if you do not know how to stop the takedown, you will be taken down BEFORE your eye gouge can really be put into effect. As soon as the grappler makes contact, you will go down. Because you do not have any time to grab eyes, balls, or throats. That's just reality.

If a grappler doesn't know how to protect himself against strikes, and thinks he can simply walk in and take someone down, he'll probably get knocked out. It's simple. Know the tools, and know how to defend those tools. Doesn't mean you have to be a pro BJJ expert or a pro kickboxer. But you do have to train their stuff, and train with THEM at least once in a while.

Eye gouges can work better during grappling if you ask me (if the person knows basic grappling skills) But if you do it..... don't expect to automatically beat the person. Chances are they're now going to fight to kill you. People get enraged when you attack their eyes... I know I've done it.

Ryu

chingei

05-31-2002, 04:58 PM

Originally posted by Merryprankster
Unless the eye-gouger knows how to keep his hips back to avoid getting taken down, no.

don't start on the sprawl again!:D

old jong

05-31-2002, 04:59 PM

I understand about the hips thing but I worry about when you say that you will just continue grappling with a thumb digging in your eye! I would never consider such a thing "fighting skill" but it could happens that you lose an eye in the process!...not just vision for a moment.

respectmankind

05-31-2002, 05:00 PM

****ed put mildley. you could expect the type of anger the people you hear about feel when they get shot on the field, turn it on rock and roll and shoot em beyond death.

chingei

05-31-2002, 05:00 PM

Originally posted by old jong
So,a grappler would not be seriously hurted by a thumb inserted deep into an eye socket and feel no pain

correct

:p

chingei

05-31-2002, 05:07 PM

Originally posted by respectmankind
merry, no offense to you, or grappling in general, but a eye gouge isn't going to be stopped by me falling(sorry about sounding like an ass)

too late.

why not conduct an experiment?
draw a small circle on the surface of a basketball. now put your finger there. now jump up as high as you can and slam yourself to the ground.

did ya do it? I knew ya could.

were you able to keep your finger in the circle?

African Tiger

05-31-2002, 05:08 PM

Eye gouges do work, IMHO, but this gay savate thing they are doing seems more like a lover's spat than a self-defense technique!

Oh those wacky French!

chingei

05-31-2002, 05:09 PM

Originally posted by old jong
I understand about the hips thing but I worry about when you say that you will just continue grappling with a thumb digging in your eye!

seen that plenty 'o times. you would keep goin' too if you really meant it.

respectmankind

05-31-2002, 05:11 PM

ching, god, another challenge??? well, we all know a basket ball has grooves like a human face and the exact ammount of force would be applied from the basket ball and we also all know that the basket ball would be stable and there because it has a body holding it there. see how much we know?

Merryprankster

05-31-2002, 05:13 PM

Chingei--such the smart-ass. I mean that in the nicest way! And no, sprawling isn't the answer :)

Old Jong-- small target, no control over my head because I'm controlling your center, you're being upended all at the same time, etc.

It's a probability question. Can it work? Yes. Is it likely to? I don't think so, and neither does Ryu, who also has extensive grappling experience. Perhaps some other grappler types have other opinions, but I'm willing to bet the majority are going to argue along the same lines.

Secondly, if there is a thumb digging into my eye, I'll move my head around, but I'm more likely to continue the attack than retreat, unless that is my ONLY option, especially because, at that point I'm going to be VERY angry.

Again--a good tool, but this isn't the right place to use it. In short, if you want to stay off the ground, this is a low percentage option.

Also- what Chingei said. Just for the purposes of entertaining myself, I just stuck my thumb in my eye and got to the first knuckle before I experienced anything resembling pain. I even wiggled it around and quite frankly, to get the leverage you need, you'll have to get that knuckle in below the orbital socket. Otherwise, when you flex your thumb, it tends to slide around and out instead of digging.

chingei

05-31-2002, 05:19 PM

Originally posted by respectmankind
ching, god, another challenge??? well, we all know a basket ball has grooves like a human face and the exact ammount of force would be applied from the basket ball and we also all know that the basket ball would be stable and there because it has a body holding it there. see how much we know?

do you start to see MY point?

chingei

05-31-2002, 05:22 PM

Originally posted by Merryprankster
Chingei--such the smart-ass.

:D

respectmankind

05-31-2002, 05:23 PM

oddly enough no. but i am sure i will some day. alas, my ignorace has prevented me from making the connection between a perfectly shaped and round ball and a head with grooves.

old jong

05-31-2002, 05:30 PM

O.K. now if you want to get out of your magic cage for a moment and imagine that the guy HAS control of your head and IS keeping his hips back and blood is flowing like crasy from the place where before was shining your beautiful blue eye! Whatever you are now very angry, you need a good surgeon to place a small glass ball to fill the empty space now!
It may sound very harsh but it could happen without notice especially if the grappler is overconfident with his countless victory's in friendly rolling matches!
I'm not mad but I just want to be well understood: Angry guys can be crippled and killed too!

Richie

05-31-2002, 05:37 PM

Sorry Grappling cats, but that technique would work if a the poker wanted to blind the guy. The grappler probably would get the guy on the ground but this attack works on the ground too. I watch fighting shows and the grapplers are able to touch each others faces. All it takes is a few seconds. It might not stop him but it will hurt him a lot.

It is like when grapplers tell me that gettin hit in the nutz won't hurt them. You guys remember that Korean grappler from UFC? Keith Hackney (Kempo) blasted his nuts until he quit. I know when that Korean guy got back to the waiting room and checked his tights, all that was left was a fine paste.

Merryprankster

05-31-2002, 05:44 PM

old jong--

You've slipped your rocker or something. I never said it wouldn't work. I said it's unlikely. I rarely ever say this, but it's YOU that needs to get out of your little fantasy world.

You asked if the trick would work. My answer was based on a specific set of criteria: Assuming the guy is bright enough to defend the takedown FIRST and THEN he tries the eye gouge, then it has a significantly higher percentage of success.

If he just "goes for the eye-gouge." He is, more likely than not, just going to wind up on his ass with nothing positive to show for it.

At no point did I ever say that having my eye popped out wouldn't have an effect on me. If my eye were popped out I'm sure I would either beat the offender into a bloody pulp after breaking both his arms or whimper in pain and curl up in the fetal position.

What I DID say was that an eye-gouge attempt would result in me doing everything in my power to damage the offender, rather than simply eliminate the situation.

Your response is like asking me what I would do if I were already stabbed by a knife in the gut. Beats the hell out of me. I don't have fake bravado and can't tell you what I would do. Never been there.

Again, let me reiterate: You asked if I thought it would work. The answer I gave was a qualified no, in that certain other things would have to be attended to first to make this tactic a serious threat. Somehow you interpretted this as me saying that I would just puff my chest out and continue fighting like a real he-man because I can take the pain, when, in fact, I said nothing of the sort.

I like you plenty well, but this tendency you have to make me out as though I feel like I'm an invincible tough guy is wearing PAINFULLY thin, and I hope you drop it soon. In short, read what I WROTE instead of coloring it.

respectmankind

05-31-2002, 05:44 PM

nutt shots are retarded. call me crazy but if a 250,000 volt taser doesn't face me then a retarded fist won't either. and i am not abnormal for being able to take that. trust me. hmmm, well, i would say ufc really allows full potential for protection against grappling. to protect against grappling you mostly (always exceptions) either need to have grappling skills, or doing things not allowed in the ring.

Merryprankster

05-31-2002, 05:45 PM

Thanks for the input Richie. When was the last time you grappled or tried to do this technique?

respectmankind

05-31-2002, 05:50 PM

i actually agree with marry on that one. well more so.

Richie

05-31-2002, 06:04 PM

How many real fights have you been in (not in your magical cage)? I have used it and it did hurt the other guy. It wasn't like the movies where the guy just falls in pain.

old jong

05-31-2002, 06:04 PM

Don't worry about my "rockers?"...And, I like you plently also!;) Maybe I got stuck on your saying about a guy who did this to you and getting "angry"...You know what I mean!...It sounds like the usual MMA macho stuff!
I'm also sorry that you feel I'm coloring what you say!We maybe are not focussing on the same idea.I'm sure you understand what I mean. I understand what you say about controling the center and the hips thing.
Anyway, I truely consider you as a very nice guy to exchange ideas with....For a wrestler!;)
We should not let that "finger in the eye" ruin our good relations in this forum.

Merryprankster

05-31-2002, 06:07 PM

LOL at old jong! That was funny, my friend. :) I have to actually do my job now, so I must depart.

Have a good weekend!

Richie. Good for you. Your experiences have been different than mine. I'll trot out a tired old line--try it on a decent wrestler... or is this the part where you tell me he was?

Cheers all!

Volcano Admim

05-31-2002, 06:10 PM

MMA scum.

Richie

05-31-2002, 06:11 PM

What is your e-mail address?

old jong

05-31-2002, 06:13 PM

You bet! I'm going to a seminar with Augustine Fong's assistant Tony Frighetti at my Si-Fu (Patrick Gordon) school in Ottawa tomorrow. I hope we will not talk about eyegouging!!!!
Have a good weekend yourself :)

Merryprankster

05-31-2002, 06:13 PM

Thanks, but no. I don't doubt your story--we've just a difference of opinion and different experiences.

I am glad, however, that you had the presence of mind to do something that DID work.

Cheers!

Braden

05-31-2002, 07:01 PM

If you control position and structure, you control the fight. This is as true standing as it is rolling. If someone has broken your position and structure (eg. by aggressively displacing your center of gravity from it's base, kinking out the spine, and locking and displacing the hips - as you would see here) you cannot control them and you cannot produce power. This means you cannot control a part of their body (eg. their head) to execute something precise or requiring a [relatively] long duration, and you cannot execute a technique requiring power. I believe one of the assumptions here is that an eyegouge (like, for example, wielding a sharp knife) is a response which requires neither control (precision nor duration) nor power - and thus would still be a viable action in this scenario. This assumption, I believe, is false. What Merry was trying to demonstrate with his anecdote about sticking his finger up to his knuckle in his eye (other than his boredom and poor sense of hygeine) was that eyeballs are _not_ magic buttons which cause crippling pain or disability easily (which is to say, without control - precision or duration - and without power). Yes, the potential for permanent damage is there. The potential for permanent damage in having been thrown to the ground, especially when instead of trying to control your fall you're busy poking someone's face, and especially in the real world where curbs are aligned with cerebellums with frightening frequency, is also quite large. So the argument that one should guard the eye under all conditions, even if there's only a slight chance of injury does not hold any water, when attacking the eye means said attacker ceases guarding having his hindbrain slammed into concrete. So do eye gouges have no place in grappling? Of course not. They simply have no place (like any technique) in a situation where you have lost your position and structure. So what's the solution? Improving your position and structure, and inhibiting that of your opponent, should always be priority number one. In a way, this question is kind of unfair. Asking what you should do when your structure and position has been utterly compromised makes less sense than asking what you should have done to begin with. Asking what to do in mid-air from a bearhug takedown is kind of like asking what to do when you're slumping to the ground from an elbow to the temple. Nonetheless, it's a discussion which can result in some fruitfull conclusions. Notable, the concept that one can stand there and gouge away (or hope the fear thereof to disuade away) takedown attempts should be dismissed. As in essentially all situations, the golden rules of i) make contact, ii) get out of the way of the force, iii) do something constructive apply. As in essentially all situations, ii) should strengthen your position and iii) should weaken their structure. And it's all gravy from there.

[/rant]

GinSueDog

05-31-2002, 07:12 PM

If someone eye gouged me during a fight, I would be forced to take things to the next level. You really don't need to see to grapple, especially against someone with little to no experience. It would be pretty easy to break there arm, choke them out, and then kick there face in while they are sleeping. think about it, do you really want to do something to REALLY **** off that person if you are going to get your ass beat by them anyways?-ED

Water Dragon

05-31-2002, 07:14 PM

Unless I missed the post, I find it odd that no one has mentioned that a wrestler or BJJ exponent is going to be much, much lower than in the picture posted. So low in fact, that the attackers head is going to be around the defenders groin. You're not going to get an eye gouge off of a western grapplers single or double.

There was once this Chinese guy who wrote something about knowing yourself and knowing your enemy and being able to win ore times. Or something like that. The problem here is that the CMA guys are talking about a valid responce to an unrealistic attack.

Yeah, IF someone went after you like in the pic you stick your thumb in his eye (and actually throw him with it, but that's a different post) But no good grappler is going to comne at you like in the picture.

fightfan

05-31-2002, 07:17 PM

lofl...
seems to me like the guy attempting the gouging is set up for a straight headbutt and a easy takedown EASILY resulting in attaining the mount position and doing your own eygouge or two... or whatever you feel like doing!
No way in hell that would work... unless you had NO clue about grappling.
:D

Water Dragon

05-31-2002, 07:20 PM

Oh c'mon fight fan. The guy with the thumb in the other guys eye has control of the head. He can easily twist the neck to turn the guy around a plop a mata leao on with no problem. Remember, where the head goes, the body follows.

respectmankind

05-31-2002, 07:33 PM

ugggg... okay, lets solve this by a battle to the first eye lost. for the love of ****ing christ, god, allah, brahma, and whoever the hell else there is.

fightfan

05-31-2002, 07:41 PM

Ah, good point Water Dragon! But if you take another look youll notice that guy gettin gouged has superior leverage and most importantly contrlol of the gougers posture.
All he has to do is pull the gougers lower back forward as he applies pressure with his head forward (burrying his head into his chest to prevent the gouge) and as soon as his posture is broken shoot the headbutt straight up. If that doesnt take him down then a simple leg trip will finish the job.
BJJ 101

rogue

05-31-2002, 08:07 PM

OK, but do stooges type eye pokes work?

PS I've been eye poked in a brief but real fight and I was still able to retaliate and take him down.

chingei

05-31-2002, 08:12 PM

Originally posted by respectmankind
oddly enough no. but i am sure i will some day. alas, my ignorace has prevented me from making the connection between a perfectly shaped and round ball and a head with grooves.

...biting my tongue...

respectmankind

05-31-2002, 08:19 PM

thank you, i hate the high road.

rogue

05-31-2002, 08:24 PM

This is a common "posture" in TKD and Shotokan (http://www.savateaustralia.com/images/grapple24.jpg) I mean the guy doing the leg catch.

And this is incredibly gay! (http://www.savateaustralia.com/images/grapple21.jpg) :D

chingei

05-31-2002, 08:27 PM

Originally posted by old jong
O.K. now if you want to get out of your magic cage for a moment and imagine that the guy HAS control of your head and IS keeping his hips back and blood is flowing like crasy from the place where before was shining your beautiful blue eye! Whatever you are now very angry, you need a good surgeon to place a small glass ball to fill the empty space now!
It may sound very harsh but it could happen without notice especially if the grappler is overconfident with his countless victory's in friendly rolling matches!
I'm not mad but I just want to be well understood: Angry guys can be crippled and killed too!

whoa! where did crippled and killed come in? That's a big step from finger in the eye.

chingei

05-31-2002, 08:30 PM

Originally posted by Richie
Sorry Grappling cats, but that technique would work if a the poker wanted to blind the guy. The grappler probably would get the guy on the ground but this attack works on the ground too. I watch fighting shows and the grapplers are able to touch each others faces. All it takes is a few seconds. It might not stop him but it will hurt him a lot.

It is like when grapplers tell me that gettin hit in the nutz won't hurt them.

lol

its funny when 'never-been-bruised' folks make excuses for being pansies

chingei

05-31-2002, 08:34 PM

Originally posted by Merryprankster

At no point did I ever say that having my eye popped out wouldn't have an effect on me. If my eye were popped out I'm sure I would either beat the offender into a bloody pulp after breaking both his arms or whimper in pain and curl up in the fetal position.
.

perhaps the most realistic and honest post in this entire thread

Ryu

05-31-2002, 08:52 PM

Chingei, I'm starting to really enjoy your posts. :D

(that might get me in trouble with a few here...)

With a show of hands, how many people have actually eye gouged a person in a real fight before??

*Ryu's hand goes up*

Damage is one thing.... surviving the fight is another.

Ryu

rogue

05-31-2002, 08:55 PM

Is that your la baton or are you just happy to see me! (http://www.savateaustralia.com/images/grand1.jpg)

To see the complete set go to http://www.savateaustralia.com and click on photos and then la baton.

Black Jack

05-31-2002, 10:13 PM

First off,

That has always been one of my favorite sites on savate/western close combat on the web, it has some GREAT online scanned work, full of solid info, those old timers knew there stuff and knew it well.

GREAT SITE.

Next,

That eye gouge is a excellent move hands down, the gentlemen has control of the head, which as Merry already stated its very important to do so if you are to really "commit to the gouge" and not just to distract with pain.

Eye gouges are not lethal, that is a mythos, they can maim you, mess you up for life, and are IMHO a prime tool to have in your standup and grappling arsenal but its not dim mak for jimmy's sake.

Here is a pic of a guy getting eye gouged where the head is not controlled, note that this is still a great move, if this was a self defense situation the guy would of created the opening needed for a more serious strike or if available to get out of dodge, I hope we are all so lucky to do it with this type of commitment if there is ever a need, the move is not about perfection IMHO but about just getting in there and making that commitment.

http://poetry.rotten.com/eye-gouge/

In WWII one of the ways some of the trainers worked the eye gouge, and it sounds weird, was to tape to oranges to a mans head, and really have the student put his thumbs in there, as from what I have been told, its the exact same feeling, it helps to overcome the moral feelings of blinding another human being.

Mr Punch

05-31-2002, 10:32 PM

I'm not sure about this head being controlled bit. MP, I see your point completely, but what I was wondering is illustrated 'nicely' (?!) by BJ's pic.

If you have a committed uncontrolled gouge, the head will naturally go back to get it the **** out of the way (so, not a waggly around pop-the-eyeball kind of affair, but a straight-to-the-back-of-the-skull number). Surely that will give you the control to keep going till it becomes a head controlled throw, or until you have time to grab the head to control it/break the neck or something...?

Or would you call that a 'poke' and differentiate it from the 'gouge'?!

:eek: Actually. I'm not sure I really want to know!

Felipe Bido

05-31-2002, 10:50 PM

This one is kinda disturbing....

http://www.savateaustralia.com/images/grapple1.jpg

.

wufupaul

06-01-2002, 12:04 AM

Yeah Felipe, that one is disturbing. Is the guy with his face down there going for a bite, possibly a nutbar submission? Or is the guy on top winning..by putting the guy in a sackface submission!? :eek:

chingei

06-01-2002, 02:30 AM

Originally posted by Ryu
Chingei, I'm starting to really enjoy your posts. :D

(

uh, oh

:D

chingei

06-01-2002, 02:36 AM

Originally posted by Mat
Surely that will give you the control to keep going till it becomes a head controlled throw, or until you have time to grab the head to control it/break the neck or something...?

#1 "Surely" = I have no idea, but my imagination is vivid.

#2 "grab the head to control it/break the neck or something" = I've seen way too many movies

Mr Punch

06-01-2002, 02:36 AM

... I like your posts too, but it really ****es me off when you quote the whole of somebody's complete-works-of-shakespeare post for one pointed comment!

Mr Punch

06-01-2002, 02:38 AM

Which part of that is a problem for you?

I have been known to set myself up to give myself time to control someone's head, and though I've never broken anybody's neck - and nor do I intend to! - I'Ve practised a few things that don't make it feel very comfy!

chingei

06-01-2002, 02:47 AM

Originally posted by Mat
... I

huh?

Mr Punch

06-01-2002, 02:52 AM

Originally posted by chingei

huh?

huh?

chingei

06-01-2002, 03:04 AM

Originally posted by Mat
Which part of that is a problem for you?

I have been known to set myself up to give myself time to control someone's head, and though I've never broken anybody's neck - and nor do I intend to! - I'Ve practised a few things that don't make it feel very comfy!

mato-sama

I'm not saying a neck can't be broken, but too many folks are mislead by teachers who end techniques by saying "and from here you snap the neck" as some theoretical conclusion. if these same students watch them **** fool movies where everyone but the star has a paper machie neck, they may get the wrong idea.

If you want to injure the neck, we go back to the grappling. pick someone up and drop them on their head and you'll see some results. I've never seen anyone receive a serious neck injury from direct attempts to manipulate the head. Seen folks try real hard, but most of the time they've gotten in worse trouble themselves because they left themselves exposed while trying something they were "sure" would pop the head off like a cheap bottle of champagne.

btw, I'm glad to hear that you don't intend to wander around trying to break people's necks. Some folks take such things the wrong way.

chingei

06-01-2002, 03:05 AM

Originally posted by Mat

huh?

oh!

Mr Punch

06-01-2002, 03:40 AM

for clarifying that you don't assume I'm a moron because I failed to state clearly enough for the kiddies on the board that breaking somebody's neck would not be a stroll in the park!!:rolleyes:

The only time I've seen people's neck's seriously injured were:

1)Mine. Lost concentration and took a bad ushiro-ukemi four months ago. Intense pain down my back. Saw stars, got dizzy. Tried to shrug it off. Failed. Still hurts.

2)An aiki sempai eight years ago. Crushed the T6 vertebra (don't know what 'crushed' meant in that case - sounded bad) from mae-ukemi. Completely paralysed for about 15 minutes. Neck brace for 8 mths. Never trained again (but happily regained 'full' movement).

Both of the above were from very soft throws. And both of them were from the kind of throw where you have a good measure of control (:rolleyes: ) of uke's head, up, round and yes, down to the biggest thing available to hit them with: the ground.

I was only trying to make the point that if you have your fingers/thumb/any other hardish bluntish rigid object (NO, thank you GDA!) in somebody's eye they will probably move away from said stimulus, thus hopefully making their head easier to control. assuming you do it fast and firmly enough to prevent any excessive squirming.

Maybe.

Only poked people in the eye by accident in sparring/a fight before...

Merryprankster

06-01-2002, 07:08 AM

To reiterate--if you control the person's head while you are defending the bear hug, then the eye-gouge has a chance to work.

If you dive right into the eye-gouge, trying to control his head without protecting your hips, be prepared to wind up on your ass, and not under YOUR terms.

Water--I slightly disagree with the amount of control the person gouging has over the gougee--and especially over his head, but that is very likely a product of the original picture. I think it's supposed to depict BOTH hands on the head, with the gougers chest crushing forward to pin the head to his chest to limit movement. This isn't bad, but note the position of the gougers forearms. This move would be GREATLY improved by getting his forearms on the INSIDE of the gougee's arms, so that his forearms can block forward progress. With them flared out that way, it's very easy for the gouger to drop his level, step in with a wide base, get "**** to thigh," lift, turn and drop the opponent. It would go a long way towards defending the takedown while still effecting an eyegouge.

The issue now is essentially one of "time," can he pop the eyeball out BEFORE the head turns enough to post his forehead in his chest and bend him over his own back? (A perfectly acceptable finish for the bear hug/body lock.)

More importantly, if the gouger fails, does he know how to defend the takedown? :)

All questions a static picture cannot offer answers to---but it does point up one thing---you need solid fight skills, not "tricks," as your base. Eye-gouging is great, but it's a nice addendum, and no substitute for proper takedown defense (this isn't directed at anybody in particular).

Lastly, one thing about the "pain response." The response, instead of whipping back and letting go, might be to move the head while throwing you around. My personal response to pain, in an otherwise "neutral" positioning scenario (ie, one where neither has a clear positioning advantage) is to attempt to shut down the opponent's movement vice getting some distance. Why? Because if I can immobilize the opponent through better positioning, they are less likely to cause damage. I think you'll find this is a common "grappler's response."

Of course, as I posted, if you actually GOUGE my eye out, I don't know what my response would be :)

Felipe Bido

06-01-2002, 07:19 AM

Wufupaul, remember: It's "Le Nutlock"...they're french

BeiKongHui

06-01-2002, 07:43 AM

It looks like he's going to kiss him on the head.

My observations in this matter would be that sports fighters always claim an eye gouge, nut shot, etc. wouldn't stop them. Nice fantasy. That said, it would be d@mn hard to gouge this guy because he will be taking you down, which will take less than a second and his head will be moving so it will be really hard to attack such a relatively small point. The only time I have seen a real life hardcore eye gouge in a fight was in a parking lot and the gouger totally controlled the other guys head with both hands, 4 fingers each hand in back of the head and a thumb for each eye. It was quite horrific and this liquid which I guess was the vitreous fluid starting coming out mixing with the blood. I think about that a lot. That guy is probably blind now over something stupid so unless you're a total psycho just take the guy to the ground and choke him out. It's safer for you and less maiming to the opponent.

Merryprankster

06-01-2002, 07:56 AM

unfair generalization? I could say that traditionalists always claim that a nutshot or eyegouge will stop the takedown...

But I won't.

Oh wait... I already did...

CRAP!!! :(

chingei

06-01-2002, 08:58 AM

Originally posted by BeiKongHui

My observations in this matter would be that sports fighters always claim an eye gouge, nut shot, etc. wouldn't stop them. Nice fantasy.

It could be that most folks who've done a fair amount of grappling have experienced a hard shot to the eyes and/or nuts and can assess the effects, whereas a lot of 'others' have merely been told about such things (usually in response to the 'so why don't you fight?' question) and have never experienced them.

Ryu

06-01-2002, 05:06 PM

Having solid skills enhances many things in the realm of "self-defense" and "cheap shots", etc.

For example. In the bujinkan ninjutsu system, there is a thumb strike technique that I have actually used with great success IN freeing myself from a headlock on the ground. Now I wouldn't necessarily be on my feet trying to kill him with my thumbs or anything because that's unrealistic in my opinion. However, because I have basic grappling ability, and can control and defend that range (to the best of my ability :) ) I can use such a technique to enhance my already basic fighting skills.

The same goes for an eye gouge. Of course they work, and of course you can maim and damage people. But to use it you've got to have a solid fighting ability too. If someone closes in and grabs you, you've got to be able to defend the takedown and THEN go for the eyes if you want. If the eyegouge doesn't work, you still have skills to back you up.

I think that's all that is being said here.

Ryu