concept of "forward energy"

[travelsbyknight]

I was chi soaing with this person and he kept pushing foward like an idiot. He kept saying that his sifu teaches him about "forward energy." THen he demonstrated this amazing concept while performing SLT. I told him that he was interpreting the form wrong since his bong sau was coming forward and he kept walking into my hits. Can someone explain this concept to me, if it is even a valid ving tsun concept?

[azwingchun]

I will give my explanation of forward energy in chi sau, though I have met people who interpret forward energy differently when it comes to chi sau. So, I will assume you will get a few different explanations. When performing poon sau or rolling hands the energy should not be hard force forward into your partner. It should be soft enough to where the muscles are not tensed, allowing you to move into your next move without hesitation. The forwardness that I use is just enough to not allow my opponent to break thru my structure, providing he/she is not using excessive force, which would then cause me to shift away or get rid of thier force in one way or another. I teach my students to follow my lead, try to only give me the force that I give them. I guess you could say it follows in that springy energy idea. You are giving but at the same time absorbing the incoming force. I hope this makes sense.;)

[S.Teebas]

Forward energry is a very real, and importan aspect of WC in my opinion. However it has NOTHING to do with pushing. If you chi-sau against someone who has forward energy it will feel as though their arms are extremely heavy (proportionate to the persons body weight), yet it will feel as though they are uncommited to any direction of movement.

The ability to attain, and use forward energy is a combination of structure, focus, and abiliy to use your centre of gravity in and cordinated effort.

[yuanfen]

Forward energry is a very real, and importan aspect of WC in my opinion.
--------------------------------
True,. Good slt posture helps develop it when the structure and joint connections are right.
After that chi sao, motions, footwork and above all the mind
develop it and tells you how much to use and when..

[Wingman]

You don't push your opponent forward and call it forward energy. It is not!

When doing (rolling hand) chi sao, the movements might look circular but the resultant direction of the movement is forward and linear. Just like a corkscrew. When you turn the corkscrew, your movement is circular. But the effect of turning the corkscrew is forward and linear. This is the best analogy I can think of regarding forward energy.

[vingtsunstudent]

i might go against the grain here in some ways but foward energy can be put foward in many different ways.
forward energy can be intent to a very good degree, in that i mean that someone may not necesserily feel or see it but that doesn't mean it isn't there.
as an example let me use the constant foward pressure you use with your waist, it is constantly pushing(or locked & held foward) foward but to the eye it isn't actually going foward. the same can be done with the elbows.
even just standing in gaurd you should be going foward but again it doesn't really look this way.
on the other hand you can also use it rolling so that the partner can feel it.
i hope what i have in my mind has been able to transfer over to writing & is able to be understood as it can be difficult to write these things sometimes.
vts

[mun hung]

vts - it does'nt surprise me that every once in awhile we agree on something. Forward intent should always be used in chi sau.

[popsider]

When people use the term "forward intent" does this translate into "forward pressure" or not.

[Chuk Hung]

Excellent posting, with really good explanations about forward energy. It is good to hear it is being utilized. "Forward intent" is more of a mindset. It is being mentally focused, to move your entire body foward as a singular unit. At the same time, the mental focus is calm and relaxed.

"Foward pressure" is physical, utilizing your entire body. You connect to your opponent by compressing against them. The contact point being the upper limbs. The pressure will vary in degree, but mostly it will be relaxed. Which can only be done with proper structure. Energy for "foward pressure / compression" is derived from the ground, by strong rooting.

C.H.

[CLOUD ONE]

Good points being made but too difficult to put into words, but here goes----

A good way to see if you have the correct forward pressure is if when you do your fook sau against a bong sau of your partner, once he drops the bong, your fook sau springs forward without your body moving! This spring effect is what to look for, without it you have no forward pressure or if your body jerks forward you don't have it either there is always a happy medium.

Without the proper root from SLT you will never cultivate this kind of force!!!

To the person who is doing the bong sau you do not know if it is an attack or a defence i.e it is neither an attack or a defence!!!

vts-- what do you mean when you say the waist is locked forward? do you actually tense your waist muscles to do this?

[vingtsunstudent]

good question cloud one and one i may find difficult to put into words.
you are holding the waist forward and it is locked into a position but it is still very mobile, flexible & fluid.
by locking the whole waist, not just the hips, your upper & lower body can move as one strong unit with incredible speed & power, it also makes facing a lot easier.
david peterson may be a better person to ask, for as i said this is a difficult one to put to words, especially for an illiterate barstard like me.
like i said though, the waist is constantly foward without the look of going anywhere, just the same as the arm in a gaurd position.
there is a lot more i wish i could say but going through it in my mind i just can't seem to find the right words to use so that it would be a clear explanation, :confused: sorry about that & wish i could be of more help.
unfortunatley all of the things i can think of to relay this are things that are shown through demonstrating.
vts

[aelward]

This is a really cool thread, with concise differentiation between "forward intent" and "forward pressure," and how "forward energy" encompasses both.

I think that intent must definitely be forward, but the physical manifestation might not necessarily be visible (as vts says), or even in some cases, not even perceivable to a bridge arm. Physical pushing forward should be tempered by physical relaxation as well; I'm sure we've all seen people who lock their structure and push and push and push as if they were in labor; after five minutes, they are out of breath.

The WT people have a good explanation for forward pressure: the arm is like a coiled spring, ready to shoot forward if the way is clear; but relaxed enough to give (but not collapse) against excess pressure.

One thing I've noticed is that people sometimes compensate their forward pressure against their partner's structure. For example, if people are chain punching at each other, and their punches are meeting in the middle on the centerline, one person might try to "force" his punch into their partner's center. But in actuality, that person's energy, compensated for their partner's structure, is headed toward their partner's same-side shoulder (i.e, they are punching with their right hand, but their energy is heading toward their partner's left shoulder). I would say that this is NOT forward energy.

In travelsbyknight's account of the guy who was pushing forward with his bong sao, it sounds, from the description, that he is pushing from his elbow joint.

[popsider]

OK so most people have forward pressure in chi sao - well someone that practices without that might interpret it as "pushing forward like an idiot" . I prefer forward energy myself - and I don't claim to get it perfect - but I have chi saoed with people that claim any forward energy is pushing and is wrong - the only answer is to tell them to take advantage of it if they think they can. I reckon travelsbyknight might be in that category ?? Just a thought.

[Grendel]

Originally posted by CLOUD ONE
Good points being made but too difficult to put into words, but here goes----

A good way to see if you have the correct forward pressure is if when you do your fook sau against a bong sau of your partner, once he drops the bong, your fook sau springs forward without your body moving! This spring effect is what to look for, without it you have no forward pressure or if your body jerks forward you don't have it either there is always a happy medium.


Cloud One, I agree with your definition of forward energy. It’s an arm-to-arm, light, center-directed touch in contact with your chi sao partner or opponent such that if your opponent drops his hands or loses contact, the springy energy in your hands will shoot forward, and once trained, you may also feel the energy to step forward with your structure.

It is not pushing against one’s opponent. That gives him energy to use against you.

Regards,

Grendel
"It is the teacher's responsibility to show the truth." ---Ken Chung

[mun hung]

popsider - you've hit it right on the head.