Ground Fighting in Kung Fu

[NPMantis]

This is an interesting article I found, written by Ronnie Young, thought some of you would find it an interesting read, I've got a couple of others on similar topics if anyone else wants me to post them too. Hope you all like it!

Take care,

NPMantis

--

If you were attacked on the street and for some reason you and your attacker went to the ground, could you defend yourself? I have asked this question to many people and generally I get two responses, "I will never get taken to the ground" or "Yes, I’m a ground fighter that’s what we train for." Since the debut of the UFC, ground fighting has become popular, but that’s not the type of ground fighting I want to talk about. No matter how brutal NHB fights seem there are still rules. While in the ring you don’t have to worry about weapons or other people jumping in, it’s just you and your opponent. So to the guy who thinks he can just stand up and fight and to the guy who trains in the grappling arts I would like to talk about self defense ground fighting.
Most fights end up on the ground plain and simple. If you think that you will never end up on the ground during a fight, well you better wake up and smell the floor. Watch any of the NHB fights and tell me where 99% of the fights end up? If you have ever witnessed a fight more and likely it ended up on the ground also. So why do you think you’ll never end up on the ground? "Because in my class we spar and it never goes to the ground." That’s because your sparring with rules and more than likely no one is trying to take the other to the ground. Like most sparring in martial arts you end the action when a person scores a point. This training helps you a little with your stand up game but does nothing for your ground game. If your goal is point fighting then there is nothing wrong with training like that, but if your training for self defense then you are cheating yourself by not training for the probable ground fight.

Okay, all the grapplers out there calm down, I see you raising your hands. I know, I know, your fight doesn’t start until you get to the ground and it is mostly chokes and submissions that win the NHB fights. "So why should we listen to you?" Well let me ask you this, what happens when you’re faced with a self-defense situation and you take your attacker down and you perform a textbook armbar? Sounds like practice in class but wait what’s that sharp pain in your thigh, it’s called a knife!! While you were wrestling around with your attacker trying to put him in that armbar, he pulled a knife out of his pocket with his free hand and is now making Swiss cheese out of your leg. "But I hyper extended his elbow." So what!! your bleeding to death. Did you really expect him to tap out and say I give? He may be so hyped or doped up that he doesn’t even feel his arm. "Well that’s not fair I didn’t know he had a knife." Well what about his partner who is now kicking you in your head is that fair? "NO" Why, because you didn’t see him or because its two on one?

In the streets there are no rules only chaos! A self-defense situation doesn’t happen in a ring with a referee, it happens in an uncontrolled environment where anything can happen. If you wind up on the ground you better fight to try and get up as soon as you can or your bad situation could get a whole lot worse. Here are a few basic drills that you can add to your training regimen that will help your ground fighting skills.

First thing to work on is punching. You can punch standing so let’s work on punching while you are on the ground. There are basically three ground positions you are going to work these drills from; on your knees, flat on your back, and on your side. Start out on your knees and have your training partner hold focus mitts in front of you. Strike the mitts with a combo of punches be sure to include hooks and uppercuts. Do the same drill but this time punch while lying on your back. Now have your partner hold the mitts off to your side, from your back roll over onto your side and punch the mitt. Continue your punching drills while trying to get back up on your feet.

Now lets try some kicking while on the ground. From the knee position have your partner hold a kicking shield in front of you and do a front kick. This takes some getting used to but is good for when both of you are trying to get up and your attacker is in range for the kick. Next drill from the knee position is a back kick, have your partner hold the shield behind you. This simulates an attacker coming from behind. For the back position your partner should hold a kicking shield at your feet while you lay on your back. You can perform front snap kicks and thrusting kicks. Have your partner move the shield off to the side and you can perform roundhouse kicks, front snap kicks, and thrust kicks while lying on your side. Like the punching drills continue kicking while trying to get back up on your feet.

For an extra drill that will help with elbow and knee strikes throw a heavy bag on the floor and now you have something to practice full power strikes on. You can throw knee and elbows strikes from a side mount position or you can practice drop knees to the bag as if it was a fallen attacker. Like the punching and kicking drills practice getting back on your feet after striking the bag.

Do you see a pattern starting to develop here? In a nutshell convert your stand up skills to ground ones. You should feel just as comfortable punching and kicking lying on the ground as you do standing. If your fight ends up on the ground, punch and kick your way back up. Resist the urge to stay down on the ground and wrestle with your attacker. There wont be a referee to come in and blow a whistle when your attacker isn’t "FIGHTING FAIR".

[Merryprankster]

I don't think any decent groundfighter will tell you that they want to spend a great deal of time rolling around on the ground. I'd like to get up and leave, thanks, and I can do that with relative ease because I DO train on the ground. I have an entire arsenal of escapes and reversals that I will gladly use to obtain a top position and run like hell.

It's all situationally dependent.

Anybody who tells you to try and punch or knee somebody while you are flat on your back in an inferior position is ill-informed. There are far more productive things to be doing.

He makes some basic points with respect to not necessarily wanting to be on the ground, but I personally must wonder about his groundfighting knowledge.

[mantis108]

First off it is a nice post; however, I believe there is something major missing here. I have been following the recent burst of argument of ineffectiveness and the Kung Fu is crap when it comes to ground fighting. I am among the traditional camp and I love traditional stuff ALOT, but I have to be honest and say that there is an achillie's heel with the majority of Kung Fu schools today. Ground fighting is only a small part of it. The real issue and a lot of people failed to mention is that falling and rolling skills are lacking. This is the most basic stuff that you need to train throwing and leads to ground grappling. What's the point to teach ground techniques if they don't know how that situation arises? Yes, this is all about the way you train and you are what you train. Most Kung Fu schools today are stuck with the southern fist paradigm where having an immovable stance is king. This was one of the the major issues that was brought up by Bruce Lee. Almost 30 years later we are still stuck in that paradigm.

A high percentage of year one Kung Fu students don't know how to handle a fall. How can you expect them to do the rest? Honestly ask yourselves, who are in Kung Fu, when did you training in a comprehensive falling and rolling program? Kung Fu masters avoided to teach takedowns (let alone ground grappling) because this major piece of Kung Fu basic is missing. Granted the training is pretty tough and boring. Meanwhile other arts such a Okinawan Karate and Aikido teach their novice these skills. Personally, I think Kung Fu has nothing to blame but the selfishness of some pass masters. Plus the fact that there is no standardize training program. It can be done since many other arts and sports have done it. The only thing is that we have to beat our own ego and learn from our own mistakes instead of founding excuses such as "if there are not rules". Remember pride is your worst enemy.

Mantis108

PS forgot to mention the McKwoons are everywhere. So...

[dre]

At my school we have quite a large falling and rolling program (although not as much groundfigthing as I'd like) , however my sifu did 10 years of Judo before joining Kungfu.

[greendragon]

I think the article started off good but the training techniques are rather futile. I was taught ground techniques as part of basic shaolin. The man on the ground usually has the advantage. that new point of balance gives you more legs and arms to fight with. Don't forget sweeps. Once during a battle with crack crazed muggers, i was hit over the head with a 2x4 from behind by an unseen attacker and it killed my battery, hard to lift arms even. When i tried to stand i would get dizzy but down by the ground my head would clear. So i just stayed down there and let the main fool move in to range where i pulled him down got a thumb in his eye and a groin strike landed. They quit and exited. I was lucky they did not attack as a group instead of letting their tuff guy do it. Another thing that helped was dragging the fight into the middle of the street where traffic began stopping. Anyway, the ground gave me advantage. I remember sparring once with my shaolin teacher and he just sat down on the ground. Whenever i tried to move in i was countered, which goes back to the idea ...to attack is to create an opening in your defense. So there is another dimension to ground fighting besides grappling.

[Merryprankster]

So there is another dimension to ground fighting besides grappling.

True. And too often overlooked.

[No_Know]

It used to be that one knew that people started in Kung-Fu and that there were people reported to be of great skill. There was no big report of people in the in between of training. Kung-Fu is more calculus than arithmatic. The further along (not years; understanding/comprehension) the better. And one learns what one knows and what one doesn't. So beginners and those before mastery, aren't supposed to fight, because even though they might be better than before, life is too precious to risk in the randomness of a fight (intended or stumbled-upon). Kung-Fu people pick-up stuff and are to practice that on their own. If you don't practice on the ground you adapt to get back to what you know or seems best for the situation. Even training on the ground wouldn't ensure puling it off in an actual situatution. It's cute and academically helpful but not required. Better to train in adaptation. Perhaps

[DelicateSound]

Regarding the ground you need to know three things IMO:

1) How to fall
2) How not to get in a sh!tty position, esp.against a good grappler.
3)How to get up.


I'm sure MPS could add a few more but I think that is pretty much it.

[Mr Punch]

This bloke saying that because 99% of NHB fights go to ground means that the majority will outside doesn't hold true to my experience. I've only had two altercations go to ground.

Admittedly, in one of these I was woefully inadequate. Once I relaxed a bit however, I realised that I was quite comfortable and in a good position to fire off some solid kicks into my (four) opponents' knees, stomachs and ribs. Fortunately it was the only (serious) fight I had in secondary school (high skool) so nobody was trying to kill me. I couldn't get up cos they kept kicking me down. However, they didn't really know what to do with me!

(The second one, I was merely kicked unconscious!)

So, yes: the other dimension is that they won't know what to do with you if you are comfortable with the situation.

[Merryprankster]

Yeah DS, that pretty much covers it. A good sweep or two would be nice.

[The Willow Sword]

i liked the article. i think that what the groundfighters are doing is the same as what we do but standing up, simulation of possible encounters, or SPARRING. we kung fu guys do it as well as the bjj guys and there is a certain amount of freestyle that goes along with the sparring.
BJJ has been shown to be very effective in alot of situations, but as reality sets in there are some things that conflict with going to the ground and staying there IE: the buddy lying in wait to pound the other guy if things get too overwhelming,,,,the weapon(knife,,gun etc.)

for me personally i feel alot more comfortable standing up and keeping my center there, if i go to the ground my immediate reaction is to get back up. plus i have ,in the past when been put on the ground, have immediately locked onto the throat of the opponent,,its almost immediate,,(i go to the ground i grab the throat, no matter what) but every situation is different as we all know.

i do not discount the effectiveness of any ground fighting art, the tiger system of kung fu basis is alot of ground work, it is just not practiced as much or at least is not revealed or taught out in the beginning levels.

MAny Respects ,,,The Willow Sword

[NPMantis]

I thought the whole basis behind the article was pretty good, the guy is basically saying that KF techniques can be used on the ground. In mantis grappling is a fundamental part of the system, at first standing and as you get better using your knowledge on the ground. We obviously do ground fighting though it's very different to bjj style, it involves many locks, etc. plus many strikes to the eyes, throat and groin, similar to stand-up style. Everyone obviously has a strong bias towards their own art - why do it if you don't! But I think people (no one in particular, honestly) forget that there is more than one way to fight on the ground and KF is more effective than people give it credit, this is simply because of the many poor schools who don't teach the principles behind the techniques and students aren't shown how to dissect every move to see the essence behind it. Basically I think each to their own, if it works for you then that's all that matters.

[Merryprankster]

NP--

You are correct that there is more than one way to fight on the ground.

However, there are a couple of constants:

1. You must be able to escape from inferior positions.
2. You must recognize when you are in danger.

Unfortunately, many people seem to think that "groundfighting," with their classmates in a non-ground oriented style is a substitute for finding sparring partners who are familiar with it.

There are certain things that are simply bad ideas from certain positions, and you (universal you) won't ever realize it unless you work with somebody who knows how to take advantage of it.

Case in point--my takedowns are mediocre as a wrestler, but I'm better than most BJJers. That doesn't make me good at takedowns :)

You don't have to be great--just aware of the different dangers.

[DelicateSound]

I think it really does pay dividends if you've sparred people who really know the ground.

The movement and fitness is quite different, as are strategies and application.

It's a whole different game really. For me as a former judoka, I can hold my own OK, but BJJ guys have wiped the floor with me before, and I'm pretty sure they could do it again.

On the other hand, I feel I'm good enough to escape to standing a lot of the time. :)

[NPMantis]

Hey mate,

Yeah, totally agree, I'd like to do more sparring with other styles, but I wouldn't trust anyone to spar with I didn't know well, I've only got a few friends who do MA, Wing Chun, Southern Mantis and Shokokan Karate, they're all pretty good and the karate guy knows a big of ground fighting which is good, I'd be really interested to spar with a BJJ guy, I might end up going to a class to see what everyone's talking about, sounds a bit crazy but I'd feel like I was having an affair or something though going to a different MA school for a lesson! If I enjoyed it though I would definately stay and study KF and BJJ simultaneously, I really love Mantis.

[Merryprankster]

It could only complete you as a fighter.

Nothing you do in BJJ would likely interfere with your KF--they are very different entities.

Besides which, it's just **** fun :)

[NPMantis]

Lama Kung-Fu Ground Fighting
By David A Ross

The fifth range: ground fighting
While the Japanese martial arts of Judo and Jujitsu are world famous for their floor techniques, the Chinese have always had similar techniques in their systems. However, ground fighting has traditionally been considered an advanced topic in Chinese martial arts. There were two reasons for this. First, these techniques are indeed more difficult to execute and understand than the more basic striking techniques. Second and more importantly, these techniques were so essential to survival that many teachers reserved them for only themselves and their most devoted disciples.

Unfortunately, the result of this practice is that many people simply never learned these techniques. Furthermore, of those who actually did learn ground fighting techniques, only a select few learned them completely. For example, today most people look at drunken forms and only see pretty, entertaining techniques. This is because very few people have been taught the applications of these forms. They actually contain many practical ground fighting techniques. The same applies to monkey forms as well.


In an increasingly violent society, practical self defense skills are becoming more essential. Certainly, ground fighting skills are among some of the most important self defense skills. Thus, now is the time to reveal these techniques before they are lost and reintroduce them into our daily practice.


For the purposes of this article, ground fighting will refer to all techniques that are relevant to a situation when one or both of the fighters are in a disadvantaged position. A disadvantaged position is defined as being on one or both knees, one's side or one's back. We will discuss both striking techniques (Deih Tong), which more people are familiar with, and the floor techniques (Deih Lin), which includes strangulation and joint manipulation. In some systems, Deih Lin techniques are considered a division of Kahm-Na (Chin-Na in Mandarin dialect).



Basic ground fighting positions
There are a number of positions which one must learn in the process of studying ground fighting. These positions range from basic stances, some learned the very first day of class, to highly specialized positions designed for executing specific techniques.

1) Figure Eight Stance (Baat Jih Mah)
This stance exists in a number of styles, including Hung Ga, Wing Chun and Dragon Style, and is also sometimes referred to as the "goat capturing stance". The legs are shoulder width apart with the toes and knees turned inward. The pressing in of the knees results in the lower legs taking on a shape similar to the Chinese character for the number eight, thus the name. This stance is used for a wide variety of reasons including protecting the groin as one attempts to attack a downed opponent and in response to the "tiger suns its belly" defense.
2) Unicorn Stance (Kai Lin Bouh)
This is essentially a cross stance but lower. From the standard cross stance, lower the inside knee until it is next to the ankle. Remain upright in posture. This stance is primarily used to pin limbs and to apply step over toe holds.
3) Butterfly Stance (Wu Dip Bouh)
This is a kneeling stance in which both knees are on the ground and twisted inward, some what like the Baat Jih Mah. With the growing popularity of jujitsu, this stance is also referred to as "the mount" because it is used when one is on top of their opponent. When using this stance, it is important to press the knees inward to both control the opponent and protect the groin.
4) Tiger Suns Its Belly (Lo Fu Saai Haak)
Essentially, one lies on one's back with the elbows at the sides of the ribs turned upward towards the sky, and the knees pulled up and in. In jujitsu, this is known as "the guard". While one should never choose to be on one's back, if one must then this should be the chosen position.
5) The Body Bridge (Tit Kiuh Sahn)
From the "tiger suns its belly" position, place both feet on the ground. Lift from the waist, arching upward. The elbows move upward, like uppercuts, but remain close to the body. In drunken forms, this move sometimes is played as if the player is drinking wine.
6) Immortal Drinks Wine (Sin Yan Jui Jow)
This is the famous one foot, one elbow position that is contained in virtually every drunken form. It is used to develop side movement and can also be used against an opponent who is choking you from behind and has his legs wrapped around your waist.

General principles of ground fighting
There are only two possible situations in ground fighting. First, one of the fighters is in a disadvantaged position while the other is still standing. In this case, the standing fighter's goal should be to close the distance as quickly as possible in order to control his opponent. Surprisingly, a downed fighter, when properly trained, can actually be quite dangerous. The downed fighter will attempt to prevent his opponent from grabbing one of his feet or jumping on top of him by using kicks and/or by pushing away with his feet. He will be waiting for either the opportunity to stand up or to bring his standing opponent down to the ground and within the reach of his more dangerous techniques.

One important note, when kicking a standing opponent one should either grab or hook another part of their body. This serves several purposes. First, it keeps the opponent from backing away. Second, it prevents them from simply grabbing the foot and jumping on top. Third, it can be used as a takedown. Finally, it can be used to break joints such as the knee.


The second possible situation is when both fighters have fallen to the ground. In this situation, being on top in the butterfly stance is clearly the superior position. From this stance you are able to deliver strikes to your attacker's face while he is not. Gravity is also clearly on your side as well. You should keep your legs pressed inward, both to control and to protect your groin, and use your hands to stabilize yourself if your opponent attempts to unbalance you.


Unfortunately, you can't always get what you want. Should you find yourself on your back you must quickly move to prevent your opponent from using the butterfly stance. From the "tiger suns its belly" position, you can place you foot on your opponent's hip and push them away or wrap your legs around their waist and pull them inward. NEVER USE YOUR ARMS TO PUSH THEM AWAY! Straight arms can be pushed aside to apply chokes or turned into arm bars.



Defending against the butterfly stance
In the worst of all possible situations, you may find yourself on your back and your opponent pinning you down with a butterfly stance. First, don't' panic! Panic makes people do illogical things that get them in further trouble. The butterfly stance may be formidable but, like everything else, it can be countered.

First and foremost, keep your elbows in at your sides to prevent your opponent from moving forward. As long as your opponent is sitting on your hips, you can still arch your body and unbalance him. If he moves forward you will be unable to remove him. You can also push his knees to unbalance him.


Second, protect yourself. With your elbows at your sides, your hands will be at about jaw level. Lower your chin just a little so they can protect your face but not too much. You don't want to invite a choke. NEVER ROLL ONTO YOUR BELLY! This is a choke waiting to happen.


Third, don't extend your arms past your center line for any reason. If you do, your opponent can push your arms across your body, pinning them for either strikes or to set up a choke hold.


Fourth, while you can't reach his face, you can still strike his ribs, groin and other targets. Do so quickly, so he can't move forward or grab your arm. D


The simplest and best way to get someone off you is to use the body bridge. With your foot, block his ankle. On the same side, grab his arm so that he can't use it to stabilize himself. In one quick motion, thrust up with your waist and arch your body. You don't need to twist much or push him, he'll fall off you naturally. Certainly, there are many tricks to counter this move, as well as counter moves to reestablish it, but this is still the best method.



Conclusion
The importance of learning ground fighting should be self evident. Whether we like it or not, we may very well find ourselves rolling around on the ground some day. Once there, you must either know the game or be subject to the will of someone who does.

[Merryprankster]

NP,

It's funny--whenever somebody talks about KF and Groundfighting, this is the article that always gets posted.

I like his thinking, generally :)

[NPMantis]

From the Ground Up: Techniques in Ground Fighting
Scott Shaw

There has been a lot of recent emphasis placed upon ground fighting. The need for an effective arsenal of ground fighting techniques has been brought into focus by such sporting events as the "Ultimate Fighting Championships." In these events, the fighters rarely exchange more that a few fleeting punches or kicks; instead, they quickly end up on the floor, grappling. Though these competitions are believed by some traditional martial artists to be no more than glorified wresting matches, for any one who has found themselves attacked by an enraged street fighter and wound up on the ground squirming, attempting to get the upper hand in the fight realizes, there is a very definite need to develop effective ground fighting techniques which can be put into action if the need ever arises. To this end, we as martial artists must train ourselves at all levels of combat to not only make us more complete and proficient warriors but to be able to successfully defend ourselves in any combative situations we find ourselves in.

The most important thing to remember if you find yourself on the bottom of a ground fighting skirmish, is to not attempt to recklessly wiggle out from under your opponent. This type of ground fighting tactic will only leave you exhausted of energy and and with limited results. Any defensive action which is taken must be done so in a very competent manner, in order to not only substantially limit the time of the fight, but to save yourself from unnecessary injury, as well.

The appropriate time to launch into any ground defense is the moment you find yourself on the floor. For as each moment passes your opponent possess the ability to get you in a hold that you can not break free from or strike you to a Vital Point from which you can not successfully recover.

The predominate difference between violent ground fights on the street and the fighting matches which takes place in the ring is that, on the street your opponent is not satisfied with simply getting you into a hold you can not recover form and you ultimately "Tap" out of. Instead, he is much more prone to attempt to completely debilitate you, than to desire to simply receive your concession to the match. For this reason, time is of the utmost importance and you must enter into the most effective defense possible when you find yourself in any ground fight.

The first step a competent martial artist must take when located on the bottom of a ground fight, is to protect his head and neck from assault. Most trained and untrained fighters alike, will attempt to either punch at your face or strangle you, if they are in the superior upper positioning. As any one who has ever been engaged in a fierce street altercation will attest to, it only takes a few well delivered strike to the head and your ability to competently defend yourself is greatly diminished. Therefore, not allowing this type of attack to occur is paramount.

Protecting your head and neck from ground level combat does not mean you should only "Coverup" and do nothing further to protect yourself. By doing nothing your opponent will maintain the fighting advantage. What this does mean, however, is that you must first halt any type of forceful attack your opponent may be launching at your head and then immediately follow up with a competent counter attack. The most efficient way to accomplish this is to encounter his attack in a format that will not only stop his assault on you but will give you defensive positioning from where you can get him off the top of you, and continue on with additional self defense, as well.

To understand the best approach to ground level defensive strategy, we can look at the two predominate types of attacks an opponent will launch at you in a ground fight; the punching attack and the choke hold.

It the case of the ground level punching attack, there are two elements of your opponentts body you must initially recognize in order to best deal with the assault; they are: the Base or Holding Arm, (the arm that is generally left stationary to hold you down), and the Striking Arm. By identifying these two weapons and their location you can begin to effectively deal with the onslaught of the attack.

If you are being held down and struck from above, you attacker's punches need only travel in a downward path. Thus, they posses additional gravitational force and momentum, to a punch which is delivered horizontal. Therefore, this type of punching attacking must be halted immediately or you can very easily be knock or or severely injured. In this case, the Striking Arm of your opponent is the best body element to immediately deal with.

Instead of simply covering your face, if you find yourself in this unsuitable positioning, you should immediately launch into an effective form of self defense which will get you out from under your opponent. One of the most effective way to begin to achieve this is, to encounter the outside of your adversary's punching elbow, as it is traveling towards you. This can be best accomplished by intercepting it, with an 'Open Hand' Out to In Cross Block, directed at the outside of your opponent's elbow. Once this block has made contact, it will deflect the oncoming punch from striking your face and your opponent's own downward punching momentum will force him to continue forward with the gravitational power of this punch. From this deflecting action, one of two things will occur. One, his punch will travel on and make forceable contact with the ground. This is obviously the most desirable option as it may cause injury to him and give you the momentary option to quickly escape from his grasp. The other probability is, due to the fact he is in a superior positioning he will catch the punch before it travels too far and attempt to retract it in order to strike again. If this occurs, you must take control of his arm. This is most successfully accomplished by maintain your blocking hand's position on his outer elbow and then shoving his arm tightly into his body. With this you will have interrupted the fight long enough that you may strike him to a Vital Point, with your free hand, and then use appropriate methods to dislodge him from on top of your body.

Catching the Striking Arm is the last desired defensive action when you find yourself at the lower level of ground combat. It is much more effective to encounter your opponentts Base Arm before he has had the attempt to strike at you at all. This can be effectively accomplished at the moment he attempts to position his Base Arm to hold you down before he punches. Once his arm is in place, you can deliver a powerful Knife Hand strike to the interior region of his elbow. This will cause it to bend and your opponent will collapse onto you. At this exact moment is the time to flip him off of your body, as he will be most vulnerable. From this, you can gain superior positioning and move forward with your self defense.

The other, very suitable option when your are about to be struck from above, is to strike at your opponent Base Arm elbow from the outside, before he has a chance to punch at you. This is most effectively accomplished by first grabbing onto the upper portion of the hand of his Base Arm, where it touches your body. This will effectively lock it in place. Then with your other arm, powerfully Palm Strike to the outer area of your opponent's elbow. By maintaining control over his hand and by delivering continued force and pressure on his outer elbow, post the strike, you will force him, face first, to travel downwards towards the ground. From this, you can gain superior positioning.

The ground level choke hold is another common type of grappling attack. When an attacker has you in this grasp, we see that he is directing the majority of his energy at holding both of his hands tightly around your neck. Attempting to wrestle them lose may eventually be effective, but in doing so you will waste much of the energy; which may later be needed if a secondary attack is launched against you by your opponent. Therefore, to most effectively defend against a ground level choking attack, you must first take control of the confrontation. You can most effectively, initially, accomplish this by powerfully striking your opponent in a debilitating location. With this, his hold on your neck will be loosened.

The most effective type of counter strike to launch at an opponent from the lower positioning is one that will hit one of his easily accessible Vital Points. The most exposed of these, at this combative juncture, are his temples, his neck, his nose, and to a lessor degree the side of his ribs. The type of actual strike you will use can only be defined by the force of the choke hold your opponent has you in and the distance your attacker is above you. For example, if his face is close to yours, a Knife Hand strike to his temples may be the most effective type of initial counter strike. If he is back, a bit ****her off of your body, with this arms more extended, then a Straight Punch to his trachea or a Palm Strike to his nose will be most effectual.

In extreme cases, if you find yourself being held in a ground level choke hold and your attacker has extremely long arms, which are outstretched, then you may need to bring him closer to you, to achieve this first defensive strike. To successfully accomplish this, you can bring both of your arms up over the top of his arms and deliver simultaneously Knife Hand strikes to his inner elbows. This will cause them to bend naturally inward and he will be forced to moved closer to you. From this positioning you will have then possess the ability to effectively strike him.

[NPMantis]

Once you have made this initial counter strike, it is imperative that you immediately continue forward and remove him from on top of your body; as this is the time when he will be most vulnerable. To achieve this most effectively, you should not interrupt your fighting momentum by changing to a completely different strategy and attempting to recklessly wrestle him off of your body. Instead, you should move forward, progressing in a similar fashion to your initial strike. For example, if you have used a Palm Strike to his nose, you can continue on by leaving your striking hand in place, as you reach your other arm behind his neck and by pulling downwards, towards you, with his hair, as you push upwards, away from you with his jaw level, you will powerfully arched his neck into an unnatural angle, thus, locking it. Once you have achieved this hold, directing him off of your body can be accomplished with ease, by simply applying additional pressure to this technique. Immediately upon removing your attacker from you body, you should strike him to a debilitating location so he will not posses the ability to continue the grappling match any further.

Each ground fight is very different. Thus, there are no universal rules for how to defense yourself in each individualized confrontation. There are, however, a few rulesofthumb which need to be remembered. First of all, never allow a ground fight to become a muscle to muscle confrontation. That type of combat is to no one's advantage. Instead, always remember to deliver an initial strike to Vital Point on your opponent when possible, and then use your opponent's own body elements to remove him from his upward positioning. As discussed, this is most effectively accomplished by taking control of his arms or by grabbing his head with both of your hands and powerfully arching his neck to one side.

In is very important that we as martial artist enter ground fighting practice into our training regime, as it has been proven time and time again this is where most street altercations end up. From this partner training, if we ever end up grappling on the ground in a no holds bar street confrontation it will not be an alien experience to us and we posses the knowledge from our practice sessions to understand how to successfully deal with each type of ground level opponent attack.

[Merryprankster]

The second article is bad. It ignores some basic principles and assumes an untrained opponent.

I don't like that assumption.

[NPMantis]

Yeah, I liked the Lama one too, it gives some pretty good training ideas and stuff. It's interesting how contrasting everyones opinions are in MA, everyone has a different way and refuses to see anyone elses, my friends that do other MA to mine will not accept that any other MA is as good as theirs, theirs is the best! It's good though to hear many different sides of an argument.

By the way, in your opinion how long would you say it would take to get a decent grasp of BJJ GF in a BJJ class (how long is a piece of string...). I'm pretty sure I'll try going, will wait a few weeks though, I've been out of training for a couple of weeks (exams!) and want to spend the next few weeks training hard, my ass still hurts from Thursday, I must be getting unfit! Will let you know how it goes when I do go, there's a few schools which look good near(ish) to me, one of them is very expensive though, I'll probably give that a miss, in my opinion anyone teaching for love of the art shouldn't be charging £9 for an class and besides I'm still a student! There's a cheaper one too, I'll just try the class and see if I like it.

[Anarcho]

NPMantis, I'm going to be in the UK soon for an extended visit, and will be desperately trying to avoid losing any semblance of skill that I might have had by training/rolling with anyone I can find. I'm an extreme BJJ novice, but I'd be happy to roll with you if you're up for it.

[Merryprankster]

NP,

I believe that dedicated training 2 times a week for around an hour and a half each week, coupled with NOTETAKING and drilling on your own, to make sure you don't forget the stuff will yield you a decent understanding (you can hold your own with others of similar experience, and thrash soundly those who don't) in about a year.

I personally don't take notes, and I tend to leave my BJJ at the gym, but I also train in it 5-6 times per week for a couple hours at a stretch.

If they have beginner classes, take advantage of that. It's far preferable to being dropped into an all levels class. There are things taught in an all levels class that are next.

There is no need at your level to shoot for a black belt instructor. That's nice--and necessary at higher levels, but any competant instructor can teach you the basics.

If they have a "vale tudo," or "self-defense class," that's usually good too. You will learn some things you might not like standing, but ground stuff you'll like fine. Make sure to roll no-gi from time to time too.

If you continue to train in it, by the time you have reached blue belt and feel comfortable as one (there's always that initial feeling of 'I don't deserve this'), you will probably have learned everything you ever need to know for a street encounter, even against a trained opponent. Of course, if you ever pick a fight with a BJJ purple/brown/black, or a newaza expert in Judo.... well, :) But that's what your KF is for!!! You would probably reach blue belt in about 2 to 2.5 years with twice a week training that I described, but that is VERY dependant on the instructor.

Where do you live? I might be able to scrounge something up for you.

[NPMantis]

Anarcho

[NPMantis]

Anarcho : Thanks a lot for the offer mate, don't take this the wrong way but I don't know you at all and I prefer to train only with people I trust. Thank you for the offer all the same, appreciate it bud.


MerryP : Thanks for the advice, I do take good notes after every class, I never forget anything taught at KF (shame it doesn't apply to my uni work though!).

By the way, I live in North London (UK), I've found 3 classes nearish to me. I'm definately going to go, if nothing else it'll give me a chance to see another style of fighting, sure I'll stay if it lives up to all the good press it receives!

By the way, anyone else from London interested these are the links:

http://sfuk.tripod.com/clubs/anaconda.html
http://sfuk.tripod.com/clubs/alliance_bjj.html
http://www.clubkensington.com/jiu_jitsu.html
http://www.gracie-barra.co.uk/academies.asp

[Merryprankster]

Well, that's all I would have found :)

Good luck!

[Anarcho]

Fair enough.

[NPMantis]

Hey mate,

I was wondering if you could recommend a good book on the basics of ground fighting, been looking on amazon and these are the only two which seemed ok.

Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu : Theory & Technique (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1931229082/qid=1023127686/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/103-7848490-5208627)

and

The Art of Ground Fighting: Principles & Techniques (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0834804964/qid%3D1023127847/ref%3Dsr%5F11%5F0%5F1/103-7848490-5208627)

Thanks a lot for your help, really appreciate it. By the way, have spoken to my training partner, will be going to a bjj class in about a month, looking forward to trying it out!

Take care,

NPM

[Merryprankster]

The BJJ book is supposed to be the very best of it's kind out there.

I know NOTHING about the other one.

If you buy the BJJ book, you're going to get a BJJ perspective of groundfighting, but, as I said, I've heard NOTHING but good things about it.

[NPMantis]

Well, that's the one it is then, cheers again mate!

[NPMantis]

Hey mate,

Just to let you know the advice was good, the book is really good, about 110 techniques and some background info all in glossy pics, really easy to see and understand what's going on. I also ordered 'Choke' which was a pretty good documentary, really up for going to a BJJ class, it looks really interesting.

Good news is I got my KF training partner interested too so we'll be starting BJJ together probably at the end of the month!

Thanks for the good advice mate, will let you know how it goes!

Take care,

NPM