Sifu D'Agostino...

[Tainan Mantis]

...Otherwise known as AD.

For those of you who don't know him he was a Wah Lum sifu famous in WL back in the 80's and early 90's. He is now doing his own thing in one of the 'burbs of Tampa.

Before he started WL he was asked by Fred Villari to helm his franchise of chain schools(turned him down).

As some posters have mentioned before a lot of people who studied in his school later went on to become sifu's themselves.

On this board..

Tainan Mantis
Pong Lai
Yu Shan
18 Elders

other..

Leroy
Steve
Bruce

In view of the fact that his classes were so small this seems somewhat unusual.

I would like to know if there are any others he taught who later went on to become Shr fu's.

Also, for those who knew him, why do you think that so many of his students became teachers?
What was unique about his classes to cause such inspiration?

opinions?

[yu shan]

Hi Tainan Mantis

A respectable thread indeed. I truly think Art meant well for each and every student.

We seemed to impose respect wherever we traveled, especially the Temple. This due to the hard training ethic we possessed.

Training with Arthur= pure craziness, pain, mind-strength, great movement...etc etc.

He did put out some Great teachers, a good question, Why?

[Ye Gor]

Ah! Excellent question, TM.

Well, as I remember he'd read stuff written by Taoists and Bhuddists and tried to bring something out of that into his teaching. His classes (and the athmosphere in the school), I think, provided a kind of mental training: "it's so physical, it's mental." I think he showed us how to take it to the edge and then go a little further. That's what makes people rise above the average, hence... many sifus.

And let's not forget that he had a great teacher, Chan Pui, and AD learned some good stuff from him (and others, like Jung Bing Dao (that mantis was his favorite) and Li En Jiu). And he tried to pass all he could (in general).

I also would like to know who else of Arthur's students became a sifu.

[NorthernMantis]

I don't know much about the guy but I've seen him on video and man that guy has fast hands!

[flem]

i think alot of students become teachers in order to be like the teacher. the same way people pick up a basketball to be like mike.
in AD's case extrordinary things come from extraordinary people- in ma, ballet, whatever. AD not only had the phenomenal talent of a jordan, he also had a profound knowledge of how to possess the art. by that i mean, though he could clean house in competition(and on several occassions did) he realized that the art was beyond that, more than awards. he saw the arts as a vehicle to self improvement, but in every way, not just physically.
alot of people couldn't handle the "ride" he took them on, the few that did ...



northernmantis

yeah he has fast hands, and i think i remember you saying something about "touching hands"- it is people like him that should make people on these threads be more careful about what they say and to whom- but to let you know his strength is in his mind

[yu shan]

Perfectly said.

[NorthernMantis]

Very true

[spiralstair]

Seems that one thing AD's students who became Sifu's share is a tendency(like AD) to insist they are on the right path and everyone else is not. (Tainan Mantis excluded). Just go back over the majority of posts of the others on that short list.
There is a whole lot of justifying and making others wrong as reasons for decisions that were, like for most people, ultimately self-serving.

FLEM:
Who was AD's 1st teacher? F.P., correct? He started his own style.Tao Style. Funny how things work out.

Like Jordan? Please....! Mike keeps himself in shape, right?

[Tainan Mantis]

AD told me he started karate as a kid to beat up someone who always picked on him.
About the right and wrong path, it seems that just about every MArtist has something worthwhile in their training.
Wang Lang traveled around and studied with many teachers as did my teacher Shr Zhengzhong.

More recently I have studied with another great master, Ilya Profatilov, who had a similar method.
After he finished his 6 Harmony PM style he was told by his teacher to travel around and meet other great teachers. This resulted in Ilya's chance to learn a very ancient form of PM, Plum Flower, before that master left the world.

Supposedly it was customary for a teacher to send his student on a voyage of learning.
Also the GM of 8 Step did this and even wrote a poem about his travels and all the great masters he met.

In the summer of '89 I left Tampa with AD's blessing to find more PM in Asia.
He also encouraged us to check out other schools in the town and see what the difference was.

[18elders]

I think is is a pretty impressive list, what other sifu has produced that many teachers?

The common thread is we all wanted to learn more mantis.

I like what Tainan said about teachers letting their students train with other masters, in the sifu's meeting(wl) when they just tested they were told they are not allowed to go train with other masters.

[spiralstair]

Tainan Mantis:
There have been lots of great martial artists that have moved around from one thing to another, some even great enough to synthesize a 'new' style that has withstood the test of time...many people from all walks of life(not just MArtists) move on from one location to another, one job to another, one relationship to another... yet few people manage to move towards the new without first making the old 'wrong'. (see post directly above for example)

The truly unusual is a person who is able to see the 'right' in different constrasting things (jobs, Sifus, MA styles) and still choose one without making the others 'wrong'. That sets a person apart in our trash-talking world where pride is valued over humility and nobody wants to compete for 'second '.

I've never read anything in your posts that overtly puts down what another values... did you learn that from AD or did you 'bring it with you'? I suspect the latter... in my posts (usually in reply to the trash talkers) I have tried to turn the focus back towards where all 'the talk' comes from.. the beliefs and self-interest of those posting. Much luck? Nah...

[Taz]

It is not just moving from one place, philosophy, or teaching in this case. It is the ability to question and then search for the answers. Some of these answers might need the knowledge of a different teacher. Arthur, Tainan Mantis, Pong Lai and others were searching for these other teachers who can grow and develop a greater insight and knowledge of thier KF. All knowledge acculumulated and put into use allows the individual to grow. We also learn what not to do from the people we encounter. From a personal perspective, I have synthesized my teaching style and what I teach from many teachers and I am truly greatful that I had the opportunity to learn from each of them. This is very different from the individual who does not have the patience or perserverance to stay with something and master it. These individuals are as the chinese proverb states "there cup is too full". It is the individual who can evaluate their strengths and weaknesses and can look at themselves with honesty that continue to grow. A sifu who cares for their student's development and is free of jealousy and self-doubt will send their students on quests with other masters. I encourage every student to read and question. If questions are not being answered then search for your answer. It will give you great fulfillment and there will be no regrets.

[spiralstair]

Taz wrote:" A sifu who cares for their student's development and is free of jealousy and self-doubt will send their students on quests with other masters."

How many students are actually attempting to plumb the depths of their present style? How does the "sifu who cares" serve the interest of the student who has developed a tremendous superficial knowledge by sending him on to other masters? Most often one gets in return a 'jack of all trades, master of none'.

Mixed Martial Arts...or mixed-up martial arts. A traditional sifu in a extreme 'choice is everything' society like the West can appear selfish when counseling students to stay 'inside' their style. Is it? With the majority of students, no. With the exceptional student it is wise to let them wander. Trouble is everyone claims the exception, and few deserve it.

[NorthernMantis]

I like what Tainan said about teachers letting their students train with other masters, in the sifu's meeting(wl) when they just tested they were told they are not allowed to go train with other masters

18 you have to understand that some schools are that way. I have seen some schools where they encourage the students to seek out new knowledge and I've seen others where it wasn't allowed at all. I know of a guy who's sifu didn't teach him for 3 years because he went to a different school. Wether people like it or not some schools are that way.

[Taz]

It appears that the wandering you dislike is at the corner stone of the development of praying mantis boxing. This is not an opinion I am relaying, but in fact an observation of the history beginning with Wang Lang and his successors. I urge you to read the following article entitled " The Traditional History of Plum Blossom Praying Mantis Boxing" by Ilya Profatilov in Journal of Asian Martial Arts Volume 10, Number 4, 2001. The very art itself has been the synthesis of various complementary boxing styles and techniques. It also appears that information (techniques) has been scatterred among masters, some lost forever and not handed down and inorder to learn the entire system it is a neccesity to learn from more than one instructor. Again, I am not talking about the individual who is not submerged in the study of his style, but infact the person who has dedicated his/her life to learning all there is to know about it. This is not looking for the easy way out, it is infact a road that may be tedious, difficult, having road blocks, but eventually leading to your answers. But I am grateful for those who have done much of the research inorder to pass it on in its completeness. For those masters who can relay the history of the techniques and know what style of PM it originated from, and teach PM in it entirety.

[spiralstair]

Spiralstair wrote: With the exceptional student it is wise to let them wander.

Taz wrote: It appears that the wandering you dislike is at the corner stone of the development of praying mantis boxing.

I never said I disliked wandering. Lao Tzu seems well served by it. Wang Lang also. But the average Western student? Probally not. Just my opinion.

I've read the article by Ilya Profatilov, I thought it was well done.

[flem]

spiralstair,

it is hard, especially for(one who does not type well) to fully explain a point. it is easy to point at quick and superficial flaws, but what i was trying to say was that ma is about more than just physical conditioning. more than making a name for oneself. your attempt to make AD appear flawed in some way clearly does what you supposedly are condemning. take a look at the physiques of yang chen fu, or mas oyama, and many more- perhaps you should explore the science of somototyping which could impart some light on why people all tend towards different weight ideals. further, you could look at the students AD produced, check out their physiques... i know you have a problem with me and everyone else who has a different opinion than the one you possess....
but more to the point, since you are apparently blind to it. did you know that AD ran and finished the boston marathon without training for it? or that he had a hand badly burned in a freak auto repair accident, and with the help of his then wife, scraped the dead skin down to blood. removing the finger nails too... or that a biker guy picked a fight with him because of his shaved head and that he told the guy, in a pitiful voice that he had cancer and the treatments made him lose his hair? i think that you "think" you know the man, but in just the few examples above, you and everyone else reading this post can see that he was FAR beyond the so-called western norm.
i repect tradition, and i unlike many others believe in the value of forms, but the problem where you are is one of control issues. as it has been stated before, its fine to go outside the system{wl) so long as it is set up through MC...

[spiralstair]

Flem : Sorry, I didn't mean to trash Art. It was the comparison to one of the world's most acknowledged athletes (M. Jordan) that I found difficult. Maybe when world class athletes begin to compete at World level with Yang Cheng Fu's physique I'd find the comparison easier to accept. Oh course, there was Charles Barkley....

I've always liked AD. I knew him as "the kid", and for the years after... so please accept my apologies for any slight to yourself.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Well, it's been awhile since I've posted here and I'll probably get some flak but those names at the beginning of this thread were not promoted to Sifu's while under AD. Now before I get jumped on for trashing AD I'd like to say that I have nothing against him. I've seen some of what he can do, I've seen the students he's produced, I've spoken with people who have trained side by side with him way back when and I've heard a lot of the stories both good and bad. I believe he's an exceptional Martial Artist but I don't know if he should be credited with putting out Sifu's when everyone on that list was just a student when they left. Credit him for giving students a good foundation and enthusiasm for the Martial Arts.

Correct me if I'm wrong but:

Tainan Mantis
Sifu under Master Shr 10+ years after training with AD

Pong Lai
Sifu under Master Shr 9 years after training with AD

Yu Shan
Sifu under Master Chan ? years after training with AD

18 Elders
Sifu under Master Chan ? years after training with AD

Leroy
Sifu under Master Chan ? years after training with AD

Steve
Sifu under Master Chan ? years after training with AD

Bruce
Sifu under Master Chan ? years after training with AD

And your missing Terry Bryant
Sifu under Master Chan ? years after training with AD

Not bashing, just keeping it honest.
Did anyone actually become a Sifu while under AD?

[flem]

spiralstair,

i didn't take offense, thanks though. my reference to jordan, was just that, a reference. my point is though as a teacher and ma ist AD compares in extraordinary ability, similar to that of jordan- whether you like it or not. it my opinion that this is why, percentage wise, he probably produced more people with a love and deep enough understanding to go on to teach, than anyone else in WL-
but as to your weight issue. there are world class practitioners that tend to be heavy. the problem is the mistaken impression that one has to domoinate in an "arena". but i do not think that is the case in MA. just as karate's belt system is an easy understandable way of seeing "rank" to the western eye, so too is competition. but tell me, is it not "world class" to kill a bull with a punch-mas oyama. is it not world class to be the creater of the most practiced form worldwide-yang cheng fu? TF was headed to the status you mentioned... so what. he was a performer-and nothing else
believe me, i appreciate the ripped body as much as anyone, but i know in mine as in other's cases that i can sit on my *ss and eat chips everyday and i still have a six pack- the thing is people want to play ball, many times because of jordan, in ADs case it's the same thing-because of his ability and understanding of the art

i hope you don't answer w/something i have to answer, i hate typing!cya

[flem]

hualinlaoshi'
you're wrong

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Originally posted by flem
hualinlaoshi'
you're wrong

Hey, I said CORRECT me if I'm wrong. :D

So who was promoted to Sifu under AD? I don't recall anyone but then I didn't pay much attention to that stuff back then.

[flem]

hualinlaoshi,

sorry, can't stand typing and had just typed above, plus had to go. i'm not going to correct you but 10 yrs with AD equals 15 or twenty at temple. so ,you are right, on paper, but it was all there except the dog and pony show

[Ye Gor]

Originally posted by Hua Lin Laoshi

Did anyone actually become a Sifu while under AD?

No one (to my knowledge) has become a Sifu while under AD.

You misunderstand TM's question. Many of AD's students became sifus AFTER training under him. AD inspired "the martial artist within" for many people. And after training with him many people figured out how to train hard by themselves. Perhaps TM's original (for this thread) question should be something like: "Why did AD have many students that later went on to become sifus?"

It would be interesting to hear from these guys. I wonder if they themselves think of AD as "significant contribution" to their achievement (of course, any teacher can be thought of as "significant contribution", but you know what I mean...)

-------------------------

Now this is in response to whoever (Spiralstair, I think) said on the previous page that AD thinks only his way is the right way. Or something similar. In any case, you may think that you know what you're talking about, but the fact is: you don't. Some of AD's ex-students may have talked this way. But AD himself has always had great respect for many martial artists (Chan Pui, Li Enjiu, Jun Bingdao, George Xu, other names I don't remember (interestingly enough, he met most of them through MC); he loved to pick up stuff from all good guys, no such thing as "only his way").

[yu shan]

A healthy thread, thanks Tainan.

"Who later went on to become Shr fu's" Yes Hua Lin, I believe you are correct in your point. Who became a Shr- fu, directly under AD? No one to my knowledge, yet give credit to a teacher who shared with his students. Gave us the strong foundation and fire to be successful, many details need not to be shared here. Training with Arthur was absurb, odd,yet priceless!

Have you noticed, with the exception of Elroy. Everyone has gone on to do another Art? This is not due to AD, but to Wal Lum. This is another thread all together, hopefully Flem can contribute.

Life Experiences are great...Thank you all.

[Tainan Mantis]

A lot of good points made.
It would be hard to go straight from AD to your own school. He was critical and caused the students to be critical of themselves.
To spend a lot of time trying to improve because it just wasn't good enuf yet.

To be a sifu it usually helps if you are overflowing with confidence. That wasn't a feeling we or I got while training with him.

But when going to train with others at other schools I started to wonder why they don't train until they can't see straight. AD was definetely unusual in his methods.

But no doubt he has left a large influence on all his students.
Everyone of his students that I have seen teaching looks like AD in some way.
Some of them look like a reincarnation. Not always in movement, though that too, but in attitude of running the class.

[flem]

tainan,

your last post was great-especially "training til you can't see straight". something that i saw in AD's students, along with the imposed humility that you mentioned was an attitude that anything was possible if it was trained enough. they definitely had an advantage over other schools in mental ability-especially the ability to withstand arduous training-which i personally feel contributes to self-defense ability more than any technique as it conditions the mind/body to go on as long as necessary to win/survive. and this also translates to other areas of life as well.

[yu shan]

This conditioning of the mind & body, that AD so greatly instilled in me and others, truly has made life winners! I have applied this to my life...there is alot to be said about being " Mind Strong"

[spiralstair]

It's wonderful that AD is loved and admired by those who used to train under him...more Sifus I'm sure would like to claim the same from their former students. Loyalty, especially from those who have moved on, is a rare and beautiful thing.


Now lets wonder what those who he trained under would say... let's take the names from a post above, Masters Chan Pui, Li EnJiu, Jun Bingdao...but no, they probally don't read this stuff.

Well, how about people he trained 'beside'? Guys who knew AD for the past 25years or so. Sifus Rosen, Johnson, Vaughn, Payne, Tabor...no again, they'd be biased still being in WL.

So what are we left with, approximately 1/3 the story of a man?

[flem]

spiralstair,

so what is your point? this thread is about why so many of his students went on to teach... what would these people have to contribute... not sure where you're trying to go with this

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

I think until you're really pushed to the limits it's unfamiliar territory and most back off at the first sign of a barrier. It's remarkable what your body can do but most people need to be taken there before they have the nerve to go there on their own. Martial Artists are generally the type of people who will push the limits on their own but generally go there gradually. AD is the type who will just take you out to deep water as soon as you get your swim trunks on. I guess he also gave his students an extreme marker in order to guage their own progress against.

[Ye Gor]

I know for a fact (as much as that's possible) that Mr. Li considers AD as his student in the USA.
Last I knew (a year ago), Chan Pui was still ****ed at him for leaving.
And as for Jun Bingdao... who knows? He'll probably remember him if he sees him, they met only a few times so long ago.

What's your point, Spiralstair, are you poking for dirt?

AD's students are greatful for what we got from him, is it burning you up?

If you have something to say, just say it.

[yu shan]

Ye Gor

Did Shrfu Arthur quit WL or did he get booted or was it a mutual thing? Oh well, WL`s loss anyway.

I`ve asked this before, why do the "Remarkable" of Wah Lum move on?

[spiralstair]

Yu Shan wrote: I`ve asked this before, why do the "Remarkable" of Wah Lum move on?


Reasons for personal behavior are always subjective, one man's idea of what is just and appropriate can be another's definition of what makes an idiot. Time is the only way to really find out if what 'seemed' right, was. Till then, it's just a bunch of hot air...

[flem]

spiralstair,

isn't the subject of this thread the proof? also, i was waiting for your answer to ye gor's ? about your earlier remarks-where are you going with your comments.

[Ye Gor]

Thank you, flem, also waiting.

[spiralstair]

Ye Gor wrote:Why did AD have many students that later went on to become sifus? It would be interesting to hear from these guys.

We have. That's what the majority of this thread is about. Though it would be nice if the subject of the thread would refrain from commenting on himself. But the anonymity of the Forum is one of its most defining characteristics, so it's best to leave that alone.

What I was driving at was how it would be great to hear other's voices from the other 2/3rds of a MArtists relationships. Not just from the Sifu's impressed students(there being a large pool of impressed students or there wouldn't be so many bad martial arts schools around). Then there is the Sifu's relationship with his Sifu(equally good, or grown complicated with issues of control and perceived limitation?) Then also the Sifu's relationships with his peers (still friends, or 'grown' apart?).
Is the subject of this thread a good person to do this kind of complete picture on? Absolutely. AD has never been boring. And Flem seems like he could do a great job of it. It would make an interesting autobiography.

Obviously though, that's not what this thread was about so that's why I'm ready to drop it. Thanks for the time.

[Tainan Mantis]

Spiralstair,
Do you mean AD is participating incognito?

[Ye Gor]

Spiralstair, the idiocy of your repeated suggestions to analyze AD in full and from all different angles is beginning to wear. So thank you so much for the wise decision to 'drop it'.

I wish, though, you had the balls to answer for your big mouth, when several posts ago you said that AD looked down on other martial arts styles / training systems / whatever. It is bull, to put it frankly. But I think it would be appropriate if you addmitted it yourself, having misspoken so badly in front of other people.

[flem]

spiralstair,

i don't understand why those other voices are necessary. obviously they would shed light on the man as man but the topic is why a number of his students went further in their studies, or had the desire to transmit what they learned, etc.
i am curious about the comment you gave about there being so many bad schools. i take that to mean that the students that became sifus run, or ran bad one's??? if so, i think that loses the topic as well.(but it does say that the two still in WL are below avg. in your opinion)
on another matter, you wanted other opinions concerning his relationships- as far as i understand the ones concerning WL are decided by WL. it seems even those who quit/leave are kicked out and are informally blacklisted- in other words there is an unspoken rule to shun them- this may or may not be the case with AD, however, considering his talent, etc. it is very likely.

you have not given a reason for the topic- why do you think he produced the so many eventual sifu's?

[isol8d]

Originally posted by yu shan
Ye Gor

Did Shrfu Arthur quit WL or did he get booted or was it a mutual thing? Oh well, WL`s loss anyway.

I`ve asked this before, why do the "Remarkable" of Wah Lum move on?

Shouldn't that read why have some of the remarkable moved on?

[spiralstair]

Flem wrote: why do you think he produced the so many eventual sifu's?

I think that when AD taught the students that went on to become Sifus he was a branch on a very strong tree. WAH LUM. WL attracts a strong student stock.

I think that Master Chan has inspired/produced many great Sifus/ martial artists through the years. Too many to count. AD was one of the crowd at WL. And that's not to put him down, that's to place Master Chan's 'output' in perspective.

How many Sifus has AD 'produced' since he left WL? Brought into his own school with his own style and turned out on his own? I don't know.

Maybe he has some more 'greats' in the pipeline. Time will tell. I hope for the sake of the validity of this topic it is so.

[Tainan Mantis]

Spiralstair,
I agree about Art being a branch on a tree.
I've studied and met with many sifus and masters and never did I see one who revered their teacher more than Art.

I don't know what happened to mess it up, but while I was there, 'till '89, and every summer therafter until the end, it was Master Chan this and Master Chan that.

One of my kung fu brothers, Leroy, was passing up us elders and gaining on Art. He was rewarded with a ferocious Lepard form that he does in demos to this day.

Once when Leroy wasn't around Art said to me that Leroy would have to go study with MC.
He let us know that he wasn't the top, but that MC was much better.
So our motivation to try hard was tied into MC by Art with his constant motivational stories of him.

[Ye Gor]

Originally posted by yu shan
Did Shrfu Arthur quit WL or did he get booted or was it a mutual thing? Oh well, WL`s loss anyway.

I`ve asked this before, why do the "Remarkable" of Wah Lum move on?

Yu Shan, I don't know for sure/exactly why Art left WL. I think it had to do with business, not kung fu. But since I'm not Art, this is just speculation.

On the 2nd question: as someone has already noted, not all 'greats' have left Wah Lum. Why? Well, to be fair we'd have to ask those people themselves. My guess is they wanted freedom from the WL franchise on the business end. I know that several of them settled on teaching non-WL curriculum. Maybe it made for better business, maybe they thought their changes made the kung fu better suited for the "average american" (for example: less forms, more sparring). I don't really know... who does?

SpiralStair, you little man, you trashed Art erroneously and now pretend not to hear me. Own up to your bs, trashtalker.

[Joe Mantis]

Spiralstair:

I'm sure that Chan Pui has "inspired/produced many great sifu's/marital artists."
Something to note: Chan has also "inherited" a lot of great martial artists who became sifus in WL and then went on to study something else or teach something else.

Aside from Mimi, & George, who else of the Greats did Chan Pui produce?

TT, AD, came from other styles, how about rich Branden? Andre wong? did they come from other styles or where they with Chan from the beginning of their martial arts experiece? Just curious


About leaving and gettign booted:

The rule of thumb is this: If you are in WL then the guy got booted. (Or it's not talked about)
If you are out of WL , then the guy left.
The truth lies in between.

I would be nice if all could heal their differences. It would make the Kung Fu world a better place.

[spiralstair]

Joe Mantis wrote: The truth lies in between. It would be nice if all could heal their differences. It would make the Kung Fu world a better place.

Incredibly well said. From now on I'm going to try and stay between, and only speak well of people and everything they say. Thanks for the reminder of the 'High'way, Joe.


Ye Gor wrote: SpiralStair, you little man, you trashed Art erroneously and now pretend not to hear me. Own up to your bs, trashtalker.


So, how's the weather out in Boulder, man? Next to Alaska, that's one cool place. Have a great day.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

The circumstances surrounding AD's departure are between MC and himself so I'll defer comment unless the need arises.

On a more positive note how is AD doing these days? The last time I saw him, well....., ah....., so what is AD doing these days?
:)

[Ye Gor]

Originally posted by spiralstair
Ye Gor wrote: SpiralStair, you little man, you trashed Art erroneously and now pretend not to hear me. Own up to your bs, trashtalker.

So, how's the weather out in Boulder, man? Next to Alaska, that's one cool place. Have a great day.

Actually, I prefer Alaska, myself. I don't mind chit-chatting like buddies, Spiralstair, but there is a wrong you need to right. This is my last attempt at it. (thank god, it's getting old.)

[Ye Gor]

Originally posted by Joe Mantis
Aside from Mimi, & George, who else of the Greats did Chan Pui produce?

Well, what about Tu and his brother (very sorry, forgot name)? The problem with naming names and making Lists Of Those Who Are Great is that you have to somehow become a Judge of Greatness. Who's to do that? (As far as being "great", only MC can truly claim that... but that may be getting off topic here.)

Originally posted by Joe Mantis
The rule of thumb is this: If you are in WL then the guy got booted. (Or it's not talked about)
If you are out of WL , then the guy left.
The truth lies in between.

Have to disagree there, Joe Mantis. The truth lies exactly where it has fallen. Either one leaves WL (as in: "I'm outta here.") Or MC tells the person to leave (as in: "You're outta here.") I guess the two can make those pronouncements at the same time, but really, somebody usually goes first.

Originally posted by Joe Mantis
I would be nice if all could heal their differences. It would make the Kung Fu world a better place.

Yeah, in fact, it could make the whole world a better place, but... Not trying to start anything, but those words have been repeated for centuries and we are still at it. What about making peace between MC and those that left WL? That would cure all the little aches in the Norhtern Praying Mantis forum.

[flem]

spiralstair,

your philosophy is sound, but if it were true then all schools would produce, proportionally, the same number of sifu's, yet many if not all have two or three times the number of students( to say nothing of time) and yet produce far fewer instructors. i think you, like so many in the organization, are so lost in the maze of branches that you are unsure if there is even a root.

[yu shan]

Hi Hua Lin

Pong Lai and I had a nice chat with Shrfu Arthur today. He has a nice school located in Brandon, Fla. It was a great visit, having the three of us together. Art is very happy.

I spoke to him about this thread. He got a big kick out of it. Hopefully he will come on and share.

[Joe Mantis]

Ye Gor

I believe that we have the same viewpoint. I was trying to be subtle.
However I appreciate your frankness.

True, that someone goes first but most say they left or CP says they were kicked out.
I agree one happens first.

[Shadowz]

This is awesome! so much press about just one guy!

but some of the press....shamefully malicious.

**attn: spiralstair, hua lin shr fu

it would be of great productivity to your art and the culture that surrounds it...to keep the lips from flappin if you aren't currently informed. Blatant bashing, and then avoidance. tisk tisk.
if you don't plan on 'contributing' to the culture of your art, then....DON'T. **

i'd like to thank Ye Gor for the rather assertive dialogue concerning this. well done sir.

BTW: for the uninformed, as the previous post states: indeed Shrfu Art D. is doing just great....healthy, happy, and he's TRAINING. :)

What has he been doing? as asked on this thread.

He's been teaching PrayingMantis and Chen Taiji YunFA, as well as Yang style taiji ....at his school in Brandon Florida. Like i said, his teachings are primarily application oriented (combat arts).
But wait, what's missing you ask? as many kungfu schools are facilitated primarily on the basis of forms training :

Shrfu Art D's students went to the INTERNATIONAL CHINESE MARTIAL ARTS CHAMPIONSHIPS, in St. Petersburg Florida in 2001 and claimed 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place in the ADVANCED PRAYING MANTIS devision....of forms competition. His students also took 1st and 2nd place in ADVANCED CHEN TAIJI forms competition at the same tournament.

to reply to an inference made earlier in this thread:

INDEED, Art D. has some 'up and comers' in the works.

to reply to his teachers, his recent activities, etc:

Within the past couple of years, Shrfu D'Agostino has brought in MASTER LI EN JIU, twice to teach chen taiji, push hands, praying mantis, and weaponry in florida at lengths. He held/participated in two local seminars with MASTER SHI ZHENG ZHONG. Indeed has trained with, and influenced by MASTER ZHANG BING DO. Two years ago he secured a seminar with the touring mantis master LEE KAM WING. the list of activities and open mindedness towards training, people, and praying mantis goes on and on.

MAY ALL GOOD THINGS COME TO YOU.

no, this is not Art.

[SaMantis]

Shadowz, I can't speak for spiralstair... but hua lin sifu is my older kf brother. He's not bashing. Any questions on his part are based on genuinely wanting to know how AD is doing, not spreading rumors or bashing.

I saw the praying mantis competition at the 2001 championships ... didn't know those were AD's students who won. You're right, they were good.

As far as Sifu D'Agostino goes, I've never met him, but those at the school who trained with him still speak well of him. No one walks around the temple twirling their moustache and growling "Arrr, curse that D'Agostino!"

Any business between AD and MC has been kept between them, as it should be.

Peace,

Sam

[Shadowz]

SaMantis:

i appreciate the input. glad you came out last year.

have a good one,

me

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Shadowz
Welcome to the forum. Your post was excellent and on topic. Apparently you are one of AD's students correct? You might want to re-read this thread before stirring up trouble to make sure what you think was said was actually said. Anyhow, I'm glad to hear he's keeping busy and contributing to the arts.

[Shadowz]

i read it plenty. and umm...worded my post appropriately.

have a great day!

me again

[Tainan Mantis]

Hi Shadowz,
You sound like you may be a student of my old sifu Art.
If so, please tell him that Kevin said hello.

[Shadowz]

Mr. Kevin,

There is no doubt...that Shrfu AD will see this.

I hope you are doing well in taiwan, and i hope your teacher is doing just as well.

myself

[Ye Gor]

Originally posted by Hua Lin Laoshi
You might want to re-read this thread before stirring up trouble to make sure what you think was said was actually said.

Well, Hua Lin, I did go back and re-read the posts. I think I see the problem. A few posts back you said that what AD did for his students is train them real hard. That is true, he did. The way it was put, however, implied that the hard training is ALL the Art did.

This sortof belittles this whole thread. The fact is that AD infused many with the kung fu bug (and I mean for life). Do you really think, Old Teacher, that hard training is enough to do that? I don't.

So re-reading your post made me think (thank you very much), and sure, there are other sifus who 'do-it-to-it'. What was really special about Art's 1st school in Tampa is the atmosphere that he created there. It may sound strange, but I think it's that more than anything else (and the hard training became part of the atmosphere), that turned out Kevins and Leroys and the others.

It's worthwhile to note that all these people mentioned came from the 1st school, not the other one (which had a much more commercial character to it.

On the other hand, maybe it was just luck that a good teacher got several good students, and thus, the result. If all these people went to Chan Pui, they would've become Sifus anyway, I think.

A note about 'several good students' and 'hard training': the hard training resulted in a huge turnover of students. I even stopped caring (not really, but kinda) about any new people unless they've been there for 3 or 4 months. Because most left. Even if they tried real hard for the 1st month or so... they just eventually burned out. The result was that after several years the school had a 'core' of students, the ones who stayed. Well, guess what their names were? Same people mentioned above.

1) the atmosphere: the shack-like appearance of the school, the little pond and palm trees, the severe cement floor, the kf altar with burning incense, the smell of brewing tea or (awsome) food cooking... all these things made me feel like I was in a kf temple, not a commercial school (which I never learned to like).

2) Art's kf skill: he inspired us. Period. (Now, Chan Pui's skill is better, but he's in another city. And when you go there, he mostly sits behind the desk. I've seen him actually DO stuff maybe a dozen times... total. They were like little treasures, to see CP do a move here, a move there... but so rare.)

3) Art's personality. This is the hardest one to put a finger on, but may be the most important. For me, Art managed to bring a touch of zen [whatever that means :)] into the training.

OK, sorry for the long post. Nostalgia can get you, you know.

[18elders]

Good post Ye gor!
It is very true that one of the biggest reasons the people mentioned continued with their training is because we were hard core. As Ye gor mentioned it was not a commercialized school. I remember when Bruce joined as a business partner and did some marketing to increase students. We were packed with students and the more we got the harder the training became. Art didn't want to teach a bunch of half hearted people, he wanted the hard core guys and eventually the weak left and the strong stayed. The training was hard and he had a group of people that loved it, it is in our blood and that is why those people continued with their training.
Pong lai has teamed up with Art and his student to do demos and Chinese New Year shows together. (LEARN KINDNESS, FELLOWSHIP AND KUNG FU).

[yu shan]

Hey Ye

Wouldn`t a reunion be interesting? Just think of the stories...

[Art D]

LOts of things being said . If you want my thoughts . it was I had a great group of guys that worked there ass of.kung fu if hard work and they did it .for the most part, it was them.no one dose the work for you, if it weren't so evryone would have it.I think they love the art enough to make sure it is passed on . as for y I left WL it was time!And by the way I lost the wieght.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Shadowz
"i read it plenty. and umm...worded my post appropriately."

I don't think so.

"Blatant bashing, and then avoidance."

You're awfully sensitive if you think anything I said was bashing. Quote my bashing or apoligize.

Ye Gor
"Well, Hua Lin, I did go back and re-read the posts. I think I see the problem. A few posts back you said that what AD did for his students is train them real hard. That is true, he did. The way it was put, however, implied that the hard training is ALL the Art did. "

I disagree. Maybe you could point out the offending remark. Glad I made you think anyhow. That was an interesting comment.

Art D
Maybe you could comment on Ye Gor's post about your 2 schools since I'm looking to open a school soon. I've alway felt I wanted a school like your 1st one where the serious stay and the disinterested drop off. I have a friend in New jersey that teaches Kenpo like that. That's fine if you work full time or you're rich. What I'm facing now is the need to make money with the school however the last thing I want is the after-school-babysitting-just-to-pay-the-bills program. I'm interested in hearing your thoughts.

[NorthernMantis]

Glad to have you join in our conversation. Congrats on how well your school is doing. We hope to hear more from you on this board and share your oppinions.



Originally posted by Shadowz
but some of the press....shamefully malicious.

**attn: spiralstair, hua lin shr fu

it would be of great productivity to your art and the culture that surrounds it...to keep the lips from flappin if you aren't currently informed. Blatant bashing, and then avoidance. tisk tisk.
if you don't plan on 'contributing' to the culture of your art, then....DON'T. **


Correction, Shadowz, it is you who needs to keep your lips from flapping when it isnt's currently informed. Whatever you have perceived comes from way before any post about AD. It was the Pong Lai guys, sorry to say that, who began the blatant bashing and then avoidance. Not only that some went as far as to attack innoceny beggginers in WL who knew nothing about the politics (people who left for whatever reason), trying to make them leave and give WL a bad name. However we hold no ill will towards anyone. I suggest that you read more rather than show diserespect to people that you don't know about something you do not know.

Don't go on telling me that I made this up because I was there when all of this started and I have been on here along time before most of everyone on this board (back when kfo belonged to Steve Creed [sp?] and not to kung fu magazine).

To Yu Shan,Tainan ,18 elders, Pong Lai and anyone else in Pong Lai:

I apologise for my words as I understand they may seem rude and inappropriate but it is the truth and it must be told to avoid any ignorance or misconceptions.

If anyone wants to discuss this then they can do it privately by sending me a PM.

Sincerely,

the little green bug

[BeiTangLang]

K guys,..time to wrap this one up. Any further comments to each other on this? Please send them via email.
BTL

[18elders]

Set the record straight- It was a WL'er, whitewhirlywind who started the bashing.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Well, it's about time to let this thread die. Seems like 4 or 5 pages into a thread is about the limit before it degenerates. I'll kick off a new one based on my question/comment to Art D.

[woliveri]

Are you sure you want to open a school and remain in WL?
It seems opening a school is the first step to being kicked out for most students. Not that that would happen to you but it seems the trend.

As far as your comments of keeping only the serious and loosing the disinterested, The way I would work this (If I ever had the desire to open a MA school which I don't and since it is a business) is to keep as many students as you have room for. Then, have an advanced class for the hard core, the people you want to bring to another level. Not to make more money per se but to satisfy your desire as a teacher to produce good students. After all, money is money and business is business. This way you have the best of both worlds, the casual MA who want to be healthy and the hard core who eat, drink, and breath KF.

Just some comments from the outside.

[yu shan]

in closing, it`s all good.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

I only trained with Art a few times (worthwhile experiences).. more importantly, i count Art as a friend.. without interest in the "who screwed who" gossip, Art is, by my experience, worthy of the title "Sifu".. I met Art usually at Temple social functions, tournaments and occasional training sessions at the Temple.. in each instance he was gracious, considerate and always willing to share insights and knowledge.. Any Sifu or student that adds value to CMA deserves a cheer.. Cheers, Art..