How do you train for "the street"

[David Jamieson]

I hear this a bit in this forum and I am wondering how any of you would do this.

The "street" has so many variables, so many potentials that it is litterally impossible to train for them all.

But, you can train for awareness, escape, evasion and multiple attackers.

How does your school address this?

My personal opinion is that your martial training is what you will have to rely on on the street regardless of the pai.

peace

[Merryprankster]

I don't. I train for sportfighting.

Again, to paraphrase Khun Kao--"Can I defend myself? Maybe. But I know I can fight!"

So much of self-defense is situational awareness--trying to be aware of what is going on and avoiding dangerous scenarios in the first place.

A big guy was walking through a bar I was in bumping into people on purpose asking them if they wanted to fight, and he'd kick anybody's ass. When he got to me (it was unavoidable), I simply moved out of the way.

That kind of stuff. I could have held my ground. I have as much right as anybody to stand there. But why?

I agree you can train the things you mention--but as I don't train for self-defense---well... :D

[RENEGADE_MONK]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
I don't. I train for sportfighting.

So much of self-defense is situational awareness--trying to be aware of what is going on and avoiding dangerous scenarios in the first place.



I agree there are too many variables to that can take place on the street i.e location, # of attackers, weapons involved....knives, guns ect.. Most attacks happen by multiple people attacking at the same time its hard to defend against that.

My motto is unless you have experienced a street fight no matter how much time you donate to practicing will not give you the mental strength/alertness to deal with a person or people that have that experience.

[old jong]

devastating and deadly secret technique!... (http://www.savateaustralia.com/images/grapple28.jpg)But,seriously,I just try to be the best I can in teaching and practicing my martial art.I don't want to be obsessed by this because I know that we never know!

[nospam]

Yes, an interesting question. And quite valid IMNSHO.

A lot of dojo's and such train for more sports oriented MAs. Of course the style can be used in any fighting aspect, but a distinction there is.

Gung fu is just too deadly, so...heh heh :D

Gung fu is hard to answer as it does take much longer to use - a bit of a quandary this. I believe if taught properly to begin with, gung fu can be effective in short work - enough to be able to give the avg bloke 20-30% more skill than what they might have walked into the kwoon with or so it should be (say in a 3 month period).

Gung fu has also turned more into wushu, as far as I'm concerned. People's priorities have changed and instruction evolves to survive.

IF you know what the goal of your Teacher/kwoon is from the outset, the better for you. If not - ask. You should be regularily (at best) or once in a while sparring with other MA's to gain experience and gauge your fighting skill. Plus it is just a good old time. If you do not feel this way, then I say - go for the points! And have fun ;)

nospam.
:cool:

[Merryprankster]

Old Jong,

Your technique is as nothing compared to the one I have mastered, below.

Unbeatable Self-Defense Technique (http://www.somethingawful.com/inserts/articlepics/photoshop/plates/Nfchnblvbl_wrestling.jpg)

[rogue]

"But, you can train for awareness, escape, evasion and multiple attackers.
How does your school address this?"

Directly not much in the street sense, no scenario based training at my current school, but you do learn tools to help with awareness, escape and evasion like footwork, closest weapon to nearest target. We do spar and work multiple attackers after reaching brown belt.

I've handled myself well on the street in the past and believe that I can still do OK if a confrontation is not at all avoidable.

No one will ever mess with a naked man swinging his baton. (http://www.savateaustralia.com/images/grand5.jpg)

[old jong]

Merry!
It is the srariest technique I ever seen!...You litterally can smell death in that position!:eek:
Rogue!
Look's like the best way to inspire panic in your opponent.Imagin now in the non flacid form! :eek:

[dragontounge2]

Train to go all out in a real street fight any thing is possible. But avoid stupid confrantations but if things get out of control do what you have to.

[DelicateSound]

Kung Lek. A serious answer..... :D

IMO You need 5 things:

1) Awareness. Spot the danger. Keep your head up. Don't look like a victim.
2) Understanding of behaviour. Some "attackers"* are subtle, they'll lead in with dialogue. Learn to recognise this.
3) Reactions. Drilled in through routine and hard work. You need to be able to react instinctively.
4) Peripheral vision/Spacial awareness. Does he have mates around? Can you run away? Where are the exits to this room?
5) Good, powerful technique. Learn to hit hard. No point slapping the guy. Take him down, he could be anyone, from a priest to a psycho. Take no chances.



Can you train this in the kwoon? Yes. Drills, routines are good for 1, 3, 4 and 5. 2 is learned with age IMHO, but through theory can be improved.





*I'm talking a mugger/attacker in the traditional sense, i.e: a pre-meditated attack. Obviously barfights can explode out of nowhere, so that is another aspect of awareness.

[Shimbad]

The skill that I practice is alertness, the most important skill in the stree because can help you to take advantage of the situation and escape when is too much dangeruous :cool: :cool: :cool:

[NPMantis]

If you're fighting several people if you stand with a wall behind you no one can come up behind you.

[rogue]

True, but now you've cut off a possible avenue of escape.

[dre]

Merry :
So close to victory he could taste it.

Old Jong:
No more naked savate pics, PLEASSSEE!

[IronFist]

Originally posted by old jong
devastating and deadly secret technique!... (http://www.savateaustralia.com/images/grapple28.jpg)

That's ok, because I've mastered this one! (http://www.savateaustralia.com/images/grapple27.jpg)

IronFist

[Black Jack]

Keep your "Core" training simple

From a physical concept perspective I believe in a few important foundations. Mental training is much more important but this is from a physical viewpoint that I did not see addressed already in this post, so here goes.

"Less is More"-"KISS"- "Hicks Law"-"Forward Drive"-"Physical Fittness"" are a few.

To have a core group of simple and brutal techniques which can be easily and instinctively used in a fight. A basic toolbox of elementary tactics, principles and tricks which can function under a wide varity of important conditions, such as stress, enviroment and even reduced attributes.

These tools of aggression should require no special development of the body, such as significantly improved flexiability, that means techniques like high kicks, among other very important reasons, are left out of my training.

I stay away from using any complex by-rote combinations, under a AD dump a lot of real life research by police, bouncers, and soliders has shown that fancy combinations go right out the window, at most a person has a pre-emptive set up/or control of their first 1-3 moves before they resort to chaos, the reality is that after a person has been hit or stunned by his opponent, he will often stop thinking on a complex tactical level and maybe stop thinking period, the blood lust is aroused to the extent that from then on ones combat must be instinctive, to resume there animal mentality to fight for your life.

After you have your core you just practice the shiznit out of them, I do impact training, heavy bags, spar pro, pad drills, hitting trees, striking posts, target zone training, weight training, solo drills, shadow sparring, mirror boxing, specific combat drills, two man work, slow, light and fast sparring, role-playing both slow and fast, situational drills, training outside, training in street clothes, practical/modern weapon work, etc.

In case anyone is curious, here is a sample list of my current core set of stand up STRIKES AND BLOWS, though I do play with others, as I believe once a person has there personal core set, they can expand, experiance, research, play with and add things which they may find valid, IMHO though people often try to overcomplicate self defense, to add things which are not needed and are to complicated, to polish a turd so to speak, something I find myself plenty guilty of on occasion and often find myself in a "trimming down mode"-summer cleaning on what I really need.

1. Tiger Claw-Not the downward rake-but a direct piston action/toward the face/eyes with a open palm and clawed fingers-a high percentage tech without the risk of getting a jammed finger as in a eye jab, can also be done crossface if needed, but the direct is better for stopping forward movement.

2. Spear-Still a mainstay in my toolbox-a long range eye attack, not a standard JKD eye jab/flick-fingers stiff and slightly bent as in a cupped hand blow,though I use the JKD footwork to get range.

3. Grab and Gouge/Claw-Standard stick the thumbs in there and scoop/dig around eye attack-very close quaters/can also be done with a head manipulation/control and reinforced thumb strike/dig.

3. Cupped Hand Blow-A cupped hand strike to the ear, though if I miss the side of the head, face/neck is still ok, I also use this strike to the groin with a possible grab and squeeze, my old gung fu teacher called this a boars scoop from the boar sub-system, it also is very good to use on the side of the bridge of the nose/kinda like a combo nose/eye blow.

4. Hammer Fist-To the bridge of the nose/face/temple/side of neck

5. Chin Jab- Upward palm heel strike, delivered up and under the chin, the finger spread to go into the eyes if needed, executed with a bent elbow and a great deal of forward pressure/body weight to maximise impact, it can be combined with securing a arm, grabbing a article of clothing or putting your free arm around his waist to pull the attacker even more into the blow, thus causing back trauma, there are three kinds of chin jabs, direct and full on, plus the double chin jab using both hands to deliever a palm heel strike to the attackers chin, it can also have a takedown element, with a cross buttock leg reap at the same time, driving the attackers head toward the ground, a solid and traditional combination with the chin jab is a chin jab/knee to the groin combo, it is executed at the same time.

As you can see this is one of my favorite blows.

6. Ax-Hand/Knife Hand-Kept short and tight like a boxers strike and whipping when done to the throat, I flag my thumb to get a solid weapon, the main focus is from the little pinky to the elbow, can be fired off from a crossed hands or jack benny stance postion very easy as a pre-emptive, throat, bridge of nose, spot under nose, back of neck, side of neck, temple, forearm, elbow joint, a lot of good targets.

7. Elbows-Overhead, across, spear, upward, back, used for headhunting mostly, upper target zones.

8. Forearms-IMHO I consider these strikes an extension of anytime I do a hammer fist or ax-hand, but more close quater, helps to create a higer percentage of success, the old iron pipes are strong, can be used on the collar bone as well as all angles and strikes of the above 4 and 6.

9. Y Strike-Open hand blow to throat.

10. Eagle Talon-3 finger trachea attack/crush

11. Knee-To the groin, irish toothache (outer thigh), face, spine, body drop.

12. Edge of Boot Kick-Done to the side of the knee, back of knee, shin, ankle.

13. Groin kick-Not a snap kick, like a crane kick, using my quad, picking up my leg off the floor, as if you were marching, much more power.

13. Obilque Kick- From Savate & Panajackman, can also be found in Wing Chun, shin, front of knee, back of knee, can be combined with upper attacks, grappling, I do it as a close quater kick, driving through the attacker, though one can also use more distance and strike with it, very deceptive kick done the savate way, the combative or fma way is more crashing, a tad more telegraphic.

14. Thai Roundhouse Kick-To the outer thigh, done front and rear leg.

15. Stomp-To any part of the body I can stomp on, head, throat, arm, ankle, elbow joint, knee joint, used once a attacker is prone on the ground.

16. Headbutt-Used in the clinch, driving upward, targets nose and face, neck and body stiff, head looking down towards feet, FMA style, only used as a last resort as with any head blow, you yourself can get hurt.

17. Dirty Tricks-Biting specific target areas, pinching specific target areas, some basic standup pressure points.

I also practice and love boxing blows, jab, cross, tight hook, uppercut, overhand.

There you have it fellas. I couple that with certain principles. methodologies and there you go, hope some found this interesting.

Sorry for the long post. If any one is wondering, a number of those strikes are from WWII close combat methods.

Cheers

[wushu chik]

Lots of practice on my back. Then, i put on my best fishnet stockings, and nonmatching lingerie under a horrible dress. Next, I will pace back and forth between the dirtiest corners in town that i can possibly find!

~Wen~

[Serpent]

No, no, Wen, you misunderstand. This is about practical self defence, not how you earn a few extra bucks on the side.

















Sorry! ;)

[respectmankind]

how? watch your mouth around people who could beat your ass

[Mr Punch]

Look both ways. Don't forget it's right first in UK and Japan.

[Mr Punch]

Seriously, I'm with DS (good post - except maybe taking down that priest is a bit far!), BJ (maybe a few different core techniques), but mostly with MP (the first post... I don't want to ever have to see the second one again). And avoid it if you can.

Respect: that's not training, unless you find it difficult!

Wen: haven't 'seen' you around for a bit. Nice image to come back with!:D

[dezhen2001]

This is an interesting topic, just thought i'd add my thoughts.

For me, fighting and self defence are not all THAT important in the grand scheme of things. Basically win some, lose some. Really i train mainly for health (Qigong) and to understand the skill (Wing Chun).

Through training in MA i (will) learn many things: spatial awarness, natural distance, timing, how to adapt instinctively, calm mind, common sense (not really learned, but used a lot)... these things all help you avoid and when you are in a confrontation.

If it helps me in a situation great, but for me that's not the be all and end all... Much more important things in my life to worry about than fighting...

david

[Mr Punch]

BTW BJ or anyone: what's Hick's Law?

[guohuen]

Just read Black Jack's post about core training. That was great.

[No_Know]

Street self-defense begins in the home. And every other environment. We preceive what is safe from what is threatening. Rain falls from above. If your survival preference is to be as dry as you can, then you actively put someting between you and the down comming. Or find a place that seperates the two of you.

That transfers: don't want to get hit? go to a place that seperates or put something between (even distance). Merely do that for every case, take something in, about whatever. And you might be able to utilize the analysis of that.

[Cipher]

I agree with keeping it simple.

One thing we do that helps a lot is AB sparing. One of us defends and one attacks. So, person A stands in a relaxed position and person B is the one who initiates the attack, B also takes up a non threatening position to make it harder for A. B will attack and A will respond to the attack in what ever way he can. A should take it to the point of making sure B will not get back up or at least enough to get away. Of course this is practice so it depends on the people as to how hard they go at it and if you have gloves and headgear on. Throat, knee and vital attacks are done slower with little contact, the groin is the main place that there is very little to no contact. I think you are better off to go slower and make light contact than to go fast and pull it back several inches before you hit the target.

Once you get better at this then when B attacks and A defends then B can start to add a few counters. B should always resist A's defense even when starting out. You have to use commonsense too, if B throws a wide John Wayne stile punch and A stubs it, and simotaniously grabs the back of B's head and elbow strikes with the other arm and hits (at least simulated as too not brake every bone in B's face) B in the face then B needs to realize this and not continue to resist as much.

It is kind of hard to work it out at some points to avoid a full-fledged sparring match. A should counter fast and hard not stopping at all until B is on the ground or you have obviously finished him off. It can be a lot harder than it seems because you cannot rely on a set of attacks to use, it is random, unusual, ockward, fast hard and simple.

When we do this we some times mix it up. For example A stands there and B comes up from behind (at a random time so A is not sure what or when it will happen) and grabs A around the arms, A then has to fight back. It is very important for both people to work together to avoid getting hurt, for example if B has grabbed A around the arms from behind and A stomps B's foot and brings his head back into the front of B's face or grabs B's gonads then B has to realize this and loosen his grip. It is very irritating when you are doing something lightly to avoid hurting the person and they just sit there like nothing happened, this is when I up the pace and hit harder to let them know, and they do the same to me so we both learn. Again it's important who you do this with. This can also be taken to the other extreme, if B attacks and A dodges and hits B square in the face with a punch then B does not act very stunned, now in the same situation if A continues it on at a fast rate striking B in the head several times and then slamming B into the ground then B would act stunned, if that makes any sense at all, oh-well it is hard to explain.

This is fun to do with gloves and headgear so that you can hit at least medium power for most attacks.

[Black Jack]

Mat,

Here is Hicks Law in a nutshell, excuse the layman description.

Hicks Law: The more responses you have to think about the slower you will be to respond to a specific action.

For example, when you learn multiple defences to a specifc attack, lets say a choke, the higher your reaction time will be, which is a BAD thing as you want a lower reaction time in a combative situation.

The more stuff you know in regards to a certain defence, the longer it will take for you to cycle through it, to pick the correct response, thus a longer reaction time.

Add to this that when you are in a sticky situation, your body goes through a powerfull biochemical reaction known as a AD Dump.

Its all a natural part of your body's flight or fight system, but it comes with a price in regards self defense, you tend to lose all your fine motor skills, complex techniques often go out the door, among many other physical elements you will experiance, two important ones are muscle trembling and tunnel vision.

You do gain a higher resistance to pain and increases strength though.

That is why I believe your "core" training should include easily learned and easily retainable gross motor based skills, not all fights will have the same level of an AD Dump, each experiance may be much less or much more severe but its important to have a good set of tools that will work under different conditions.

Cheers

[Merryprankster]

Thumbs up for Black Jack's post--

EXACTLY!!! Don't rely on subtle manipulations....

[Khun Kao Charuad]

I don't have anything to add that hasn't already been said. I just wanted to say how warm & fuzzy I feel after seeing Merryprankster quoting me! I wasn't sure if anyone had appreciated that statement:

Can I defend myself? Maybe... (or maybe not!) but I know that I can fight!

Khun Kao

[Black Jack]

Thanks Merry,

Just for that I won't put you in my naked underground zoo.

[Merryprankster]

Hmmm...Black Jack's talking dirty to me.

If you're trying to get a date man, you're going to have to talk dirtier than that....

[Black Jack]

Oh its on now sucker.....

Black Jack, humming FreeBird to himself, back to packing the chainsaw, package of frozen hotdogs, handcuffs, hockey mask and a glad bag of viagra into a tattered napsack.

:D

[Merryprankster]

YIKES!!!

[JWTAYLOR]

Black Jack, humming FreeBird to himself, back to packing the chainsaw, package of frozen hotdogs, handcuffs, hockey mask and a glad bag of viagra into a tattered napsack.

Finally, a soul mate.

JWT

[JWTAYLOR]

But on a more serious note:

I really wonder about the loss of fine motor skills. In general, yes, I must agree, fine motor skills go right out the window for most things.

But that does seem to change when we train.

I first started thinking of this when I was looking at competitive shooters. Both quickdraw shooters and long range highpower rifle shooters get pretty stressed out. And yet they are able to maintain incredible fine motor control. I know this is just competition, but much of the same results have been shown by incredible soldiers in battle. (Sgt. Carlos Hathco(k come to mind anyone?)

Or take a baseball pitcher. I was an all state 3rd baseman. I could throw an 87mph fast ball and a curve ball d@mn near as fast. Knuckle ball anyone? All of these pitches take a real fine motor control while performing a massive total body maneauver.

For that matter, ever try hitting a baseball moving at you at a 90mph. That ball seems real small, and it's moving real fast. But people do it. People who TRAIN TO DO IT.

Consider the fine motor control of a formula 1 racer or open class motorcycle racer. Both need incredibly small movements at very high speeds, where a tiny fu(k up means possible death.

All of these things happen, and happen regularly, by people who train to do it.

JWT

[Merryprankster]

Walk up behind the shooter and startle them and see how good the accuracy is :)

Seriously though, that's one of the reasons I advocate lots of sparring. Getting used to getting hit takes some of the surprise out of it.

[JWTAYLOR]

That's actually pretty standard training for shooting. When I took my tactical shotgun class here the range master decided to see how my acuracy was when I was startled by thowing black cats at my feet as I moved through the corse.

At first, I missed allot more. Then, I didn't.

For a real world class shooter, you could shove an M60 up their a$$ and they'd split your **** at a click.


JWT

[Merryprankster]

I'm not in the mood to shove an M-60 up anybody's a$$. Sounds like a job for Black Jack....

[JWTAYLOR]

Not in the mood to shove an M-60 up someone's a$$?

And you call yourself a Marine.

Tsk, tsk, tsk.

JWT

[Black Jack]

Oh its coming punk....

Black Jack, now only dressed in a pair of pink garters, pimp shoes with 3 inch glass soles filled with dead goldfish, and a too tight white tee-shirt that has inscribed across its front "Frankie Says Relax" takes apart his M-60 for easy carry, all of this done to the tunes of Cathy Lee's Christmas album.

JWT,

I would not put those examples as a person who's body is in EXTREME stress, if not for the fact that they can get up and just walk away from the situation.

I am not Tony Blair or Bruce Siddle, nor do I have a basic understanding of neuroscience, psychological effects on combat is a whole freaking field, but some of the basic stuff that I have investigated makes sense to me in that regard to h2h and stress.

Since all human beings are born with the physiological fight or flight mechanism, which gives us the ability to alter muscular, hormonal and mentals states under extreme stress to enable us to respond to a threat with greater physical force, one would wager that this also effects how we would "really" fight under exterme duress.

When faced with a stressor, the brains hypothalamus is activated and sets in train a series of hormonal reactions which lead to the release of adrenaline and noradrenaline from the adrenal medulla into the bloodstream. What we get is a increase in heart rate, blood pressure and respiriation, blood sent to the muscles to provide with more sugar and oxygen.

The bad part is that you can be mentally paralysed by the unfamiliar sensations, effective training of course is aimed to fight this, to gie you a body of techniques which have been repeated so often that they form a part of your instinctive response, but it does not take away the physical elements, shaky body, rapid breathing, tunnel vision, the higher the heartbeat the worse it is, the higher it is I believe the research shows that the less fine motor based skills you can use on a decisive level.

I believe that fine motor skills are still useable, thus should be trained, as each encounter is different from the next, but just not as accesible a tool, the more direct and low maintenance the tool, IMHO the better it is in a serious violent encounter.

Just my thoughts.

[JWTAYLOR]

Absolutely,
Train and trust what is simple, easy, and effective for YOU.

But, I just want to get that the more you train a motion, however fine that motion may be, and the MORE STRESS YOU TRAIN IN, the more likely you are to pull off those fine motor skills in combat.

I'm just saying that those feats are possible, and that people do them all the time.

JWT

[Black Jack]

JWT,

I agree.

There are no hard and set rules. I just follow what I believe works for me and that is the basis I take in certain discussions.

[David Jamieson]

Just want to say some great responses!

Thanks for the feedback guys.

Black Jack, I hear you on the core training concepts and agree. I also believe the core of what you train is what will be your foundation in virtually all encounters.

Good stuff

peace

[rogue]

Black Jack & Merry, take your soulfull gazing into each others eyes to the Royal Marines thread. You guys sound like a couple of backwoods Afghans.

On the serious note: Sounds like the difference in losing motor skills is a large part mental training.

[JWTAYLOR]

D@mnit Rouge, leave training out of this.

JWT says, grinning while shaving his face, dressed neatly in starched white button down, red tie, black socks and a metal studded leather codpeice.

JWT

[Cipher]

This is something I have found interesting also. From what I have experienced, when I am about to get into a fight with someone at first I feel shakey and everything, the main thing I have noticed is that I would start to shake mainly my hands and my legs feel a little like jello. The part that confuses me though is that useually this is short and once I get past that I have a very calm and cool feeling.

For example, as things start to get harry like when your not sure if there is a problem or you are agruing with someone then I feel the trembling and so forth. But after this initial contact and if things get to the point of fighting I get a really calm feeling like I am in control of the situation, is this normal?

Something else that is weird is that you can get a AD dump even when you are not in a physical confrontation. One time I had a seriouse fight over the phone with a person I did not know too well and I was shaking, I was so ****ed off I could have crippled the person if I had the chance and would have felt good about it.

[scotty1]

We train sportfighting techniques also.

But we are also shown how to adapt those techs so they are more viable for a non sport setting. Like blocking the opponent's vision, relentless attack (no trading blows) punching from extremly close range, various things like that.

[dezhen2001]

Interesting guys... for me it's been a little different.

Sometimes i have had no shaking or anything until well AFTER the incident is over... but other times i have felt calm but have just 'frozen'. Again, no shaking or legs like jello, just frozen :p

david

[greendragon]

Meditation. By developing conciousness in T'an Tien (center) you become more in tune with the universe and you can sense intent while it is still at the initial stage. This gives you the edge to avoid the attack. A lot of street attacks are cowardly sucker punches.The same principle applies one on one. You sense the intent to know a feint from a commited move that you can counter effectively. ..I agree simplicity is the essence in self defense. I don't think sport fighting is effective on the street, too reactionary. but it's all in the individual and situation. Many street attackers are a free set-up for a whirly bird arm bar. And you must be able to muster up that killing force intent yourself like flipping on a switch.

[JWTAYLOR]

What exactly do you mean by sport fighting being too reactionary for the street?

JWT

[greendragon]

expecting to trade blows.getting involved as a contest instead of avoiding or ending it with a serious blow. not submission holds or a point mentality tap fest. no rules at all. sport implies rules.

[JWTAYLOR]

None of that explained why you think sport fighting is "reactionary".


JWT

[DelicateSound]

I think he means you react to your opponant too much, rather than taking the initiative.


i.e: The blow from your enemy [esp.in SemiContact] won't really do damage, so you allow him to swing punches and concentrate move on sparring than on fighting.







Maybe.

[JWTAYLOR]

That would be a pretty dumb ploy. Waiting for the other guy to knock you out is always a bad idea. Almost as bad not punching with all of your power. Good way to loose. No serious competitor would ever do that.

JWT

[Merryprankster]

JWT:

I think you'll find that the problem is that greendragon doesn't know what he's talking about.

No competitor I have ever met who got in a streetfight said --OH GOODY! A "Insert art here" match.

They've all gone for the kill or the tactically sound escape asap.

I suppose, if you are an idiot, that greendragon's point is correct--an idiot who was a sportfighter might do what greendragon is talking about.

[DelicateSound]

Of course it's stupid.

It's his theory on sportfighters, not mine :D






I do think that most sportfighters suck dick in streetfights though. But then so do most TMA's. Only streetfighters win in streetfights.

[Merryprankster]

Oh, I don't know about that. I can think of plenty of wrestlers and boxers and BJJers that have done an awful lot of streetfighting and been successful with their tools.

On the other hand, only a streetfighter goes LOOKING for a streetfight.

I much prefer living :)

[DelicateSound]

What I mean MPS is that most people just pick Style X and train in it for a few years and think that they can streetfight.

IMHO almost ALL styles need adapting for the street.

Most people don't spend hours on KFO discussing theory. Most don't train for weapons, for concrete, for multiple attackers. They think that a nice [insert move] will finish 'em OK.

Unless you know the arena, you will fail in it.

[Merryprankster]

Hmm... I think that far fewer sportfighters are of the "Technique X" will finish them crowd. They know the reality that it WON'T necessarily be that way. It might take more than one shot to the head, etc.

On the other hand, I agree about concrete, etc. I bet there are some streetfighters that start LOOKING, right away, for a glass window to push you through or a hydrant to throw you on. I don't know if I would have the presence of mind to do so.

[DelicateSound]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
Hmm... I think that far fewer sportfighters are of the "Technique X" will finish them crowd. They know the reality that it WON'T necessarily be that way. It might take more than one shot to the head, etc.

My point exactly. They are experienced. They know the ring and the "Rules".


As for your second point - that is an extension of the above IMO.

[Merryprankster]

Whoa-- I think you misread my post. I said that sportfighters probably WILL understand that it's not a "one shot kill game," but that streetfighers understand that, AND the terrain.

So, basically, while a sportfighter might be a tough cookie, there are things he might not think about that the streetfighter will.

So I am agreeing with you in a qualified way :)

[DelicateSound]

OK - I see your point. :) But some spotfighters think too much like sparring.


All systems have their faults MPS.

[Merryprankster]

slim,

w/respect to BJJ, you don't know what you're talking about--I can sweep, knee mount, stomp to the head and run in about the same amount of time it takes to unload a 4 punch combo. If I don't bother to knee mount and kick him in the head, it takes less time. This is the primary purpose of BJJ in a street situation. I DON'T have to stay on the ground if I don't wanna, and there are now VERY few people who can keep me there if I don't want to be there. Can others necessarily say the same thing? A question worth considering the answer to.

The reason BJJ was so successful all on its own (emphasis on was), is because it made mincemeat of the tools of other arts by keeping them out of their preferred range--standing. A karateka or CMA guy on the ground isn't much of a match, generally speaking (exceptions exist--DOWN overly zealous types!!!), for somebody who has had some solid ground experience. They are SO different

DS--no argument from me. I don't consider myself a streetfighter, and I think every system has holes. Try telling that to the "My style is a complete system," crowd. You ENJOY that one! :)

[BJJISTHEBEST]

How do i train for the street easy i go around beating up kung fu schools and make them cry uncle and say "please dont hurt me any more" that is all the sparring i need to do

[Merryprankster]

Amen slim!

[scotty1]

"how? watch your mouth around people who could beat your ass"

Respectmankind, are you serious? Get a sense of humour dude.

On the subject of sportfighting, don't generalise. Generalise about sportfighters again and I'll call you a girly chinese ballet dancer, see what I mean?

Like Merry says, you get idiot sportfighters (or just naive/inexperienced, lets not be too harsh) who do think that they will stand and trade blows with an attacker. I would probably be one of them were it not for this forum.

However, I am well aware of when I am training for sport and what will and won't work on the street. Like I said before, we know how to adapt our techniques for the street, and whenever we talk about self defense fighting we talk about hitting first and hard, as we may not get a second chance.

It is also my opinion that a lot of sportsfighters who do not carrry the sportfighting mentality out of the club or ring would perhaps fare better than *some* traditional fighters as they are used to a certain amount of contact.

I would also venture that the combos that we drill over and over again (jab/cross/hook/uppercut) would perform fairly well under an AD Dump.

Our teacher has made us aware of the realities of striking in the real world. I suppose a lot would depend on your teacher.

[scotty1]

Also, tournaments, while not recreating the physical pressures of a street fight are quite good at making me nervous as hell and PARTIALLY recreating the mental pressures.

I've managed to build up quite an AD Dump at the last two tournaments I've attended, wobbly limbs, loss of skills, tunnel vision and all.

Obviously it is not as severe as it would be in a proper confrontation, but it is a step closer from sparring in the kwoon or club with no pressure at all.

As well as that, you have to differentiate between points fighting and continuous fighting. Points fighting is obviously lacking in any opportunity for follow ups. Thus combos which would be street effective are illegal, although points fighting is a good training aid IMHO, as it teaches that first is best. This usually comes at a price in matches though, ie. no-one thinks about their defense.

People do think about their defense in continuous, although obviously they expect to trade a certain amount.

It's balancing having fun with giving yourself skills that can help you in a confrontation. My area is not bad enough for me to worry too much about having to defend my life.

Kickboxing keeps me fit, and means I can hit hard in a fight. Its also good fun, and these three are good enough for me at the mo.

[greendragon]

I am late getting back to this thread, but let me say the best streetfighter i know is BJJ (but he always gets hit on the way in). You guys can't tell me you don't hold back in sport fighting, i never hear of people getting their ribs put through their lungs, etc. etc. in matches. I only meant you have to get serious. I never said it would take only one blow, that's exactly why you need to use full power. sorry MP if you think i don't know what i'm talking about because i agree with your " go for the kill or get out.". I didn't get the crack about "insert art here" because that's what i will do if someone grabs me or takes a punch. I smile and fill the opening.