Wing Chun Seminar in Minneapolis

[Michael]

Hi Everyone,

Minneapolis Wing Chun is hosting a seminar at the end of June and I'd like to invited anyone in the Minneapolis/St. Paul area who is interested.

It will be on Saturday, June 29th and Sunday, June 20th.


Carl Dechiara will be presenting the seminar, sharing his insights on the Leung Sheung method of training, as taught by Kenneth Chung of San Francisco.

Among the topics to be covered:

* The importance of precise body structure in Wing Chun.
* The essential foundation skills.
* How to exploit your opponent's weaknesses.
* Why the Wing Chun stance is so critical.
* Single sticky-hand training.
* Wing Chun fighting concepts.
* Developing relaxed energy for deep penetrating power.
* And more.

Carl has a high-level of skill and loves to share his knowledge. His seminars aren't just a demonstration of his skill; he breaks down drills and concepts so that the student understands why things work in Wing Chun.

Beginners are definately welcome.
If you're interested please contact me for more information:

Michael Mallory (612-987-5443)
E-mail: mmallory@minn.net
Minneapolis Wing Chun: mpls-wingchun.com

Carl's website: wing-chun.nu

[red5angel]

Yep, cant wait! Carl has an incredible understanding of what is important in wing chun, and how those things are applied. After seeing him in action at the last seminar, especially touching hands with an old instructor of mine I thought up until then to be quite good, I am convinced this is the real deal.

[red5angel]

Just a reminder that this is coming up in just one week!

[anerlich]

Michael, thanks for a reasonable, informative, non-hagiographic invitation to this seminar. Since I live in AUS, I won't be coming, but I wish all participants a good seminar.

r5a, thanks for reminding everybody yet again. Maybe you could repost every half hour or so just in case some of us forget, and mention the same thing on a few more separate threads as well. It's good you reminded us it's only a week away, since nobody on this forum is capable of doing their own date arithmetic.

Perhaps a report on this seminar afterward would be interesting. I know r5a will be giving us one in enormous, hyperbolic detail no matter what, but maybe someone else with a more objective viewpoint could give a balanced perspective.

[Grendel]

Originally posted by Michael

Minneapolis Wing Chun is hosting a seminar at the end of June and I'd like to invited anyone in the Minneapolis/St. Paul area who is interested.

It will be on Saturday, June 29th and Sunday, June 20th.

Carl Dechiara will be presenting the seminar, sharing his insights on the Leung Sheung method of training, as taught by Kenneth Chung of San Francisco.
Michael Mallory (612-987-5443)
E-mail: mmallory@minn.net
Minneapolis Wing Chun: mpls-wingchun.com

Carl's website: wing-chun.nu

Hi Michael,

Nicely informative post. Good luck with the seminar. I wish you success.

Please sum up what you learned when you get the chance post seminar.

[black and blue]

Please do give us an account of how the weekend went, what was covered, what was uncovered etc.

Though me thinks Michael is an alias of Red5's, used to put out posts without catching the usual flack. ;)

Just post clean Red!

And Red, a quick question. In your lineage, how is Chi Sau approached? After learning Dan Chi Sau and then Poon Sau, how does Carl instruct Chi Sau?

Set attacks and defence? Drills to exploit angles? Poon Sau with footwork? etc etc.

[yuanfen]

No- Michael and red5 angel are not the same. So,e transformations would be very self evident.Michael is probably the regular "instructor" for red 5- though it "helps"
to drop names(CD...) up the line. CD's style is tp do seminars for his groups in Minn. and Seattle.

Seminar reports IMO if any however brief- should have some substance- what taught- how taught- some specific understandable concepts or content---otherwise why do
another "he was great- everyone learned a lot-nothing like it since sliced bread" boring space taker?

[red5angel]

Black and Blue - We do foot work with double arm and we do attack and defense drills with each other, having the person with the higher level of sensitivity leading the exchange.
We dont get too technique focused we rely on our sensitivity.

[Michael]

To Grendell, Anerlick, and Black and Blue,

Thanks for the encouragement for our seminar this weekend. Co-ordinating these things is sometimes a challenge and I'll probably be the person who enjoys it the least because it's my job to make sure everything runs smoothly. But that's okay.

Not to worry, if I report what we did I won't say something vacuous like "It was great! I learned a lot," which means nothing to anybody. If I can be detailed or a bit specific about what was covered I will share it. If I can't I won't waste your time.

Also, Red5Angel and I are not the same person, as several have already figured out. Red5 is one of our hard working students. I'm the leader of our study group (I prefer "study group" to "school" because it better describes us at the moment and doesn't sound as pretentious.)

Michael

[red5angel]

Woops, sorry Michael, I should have cleared that up earlier!
I am not Michael, you are free to check out the site to see who we are, Michael is one of the instructors or leaders of our 'study group' and I am a student there.

Jason

[black and blue]

Red5Angel... there's a pic on the site of students in Jan 2002. Which one are you? Lets put a face to the posts!

What really disturbs me is that same picture. There's a girl with REALLY red hair :eek: :)

RED hair. Hmmm... is her name Angel by chance? Is she one of 5 children?

I've accused you of being Michael and was proved wrong. Now I'm accusing you of being the lass :)

Duncan

Ps. Get some mpegs up on the site! People today - they put up WC sites..........

[red5angel]

Black and Blue - LOL! No I am not the red headed girl! In the class picture I am in the back row I believe fourth from the left, white t-shirt.

[dbulmer]

Shock, horror quel ugly dude ! :)

[fa_jing]

Hey! Ken Chung Sifu looks like he has some muscles! Do you guys work on building the body?

[Zhuge Liang]

Originally posted by red5angel
Black and Blue - LOL! No I am not the red headed girl! In the class picture I am in the back row I believe fourth from the left, white t-shirt.

I hope you won't take offense in this, but my first guess as to which one you are turned out to be correct. =)

Zhuge Liang

[red5angel]

Why would I be offended by that? I have been open on this forum, that is me, albeit after two days of working hard at WC. We are all a little beat up and hagard but it was fun!

[gnugear]

Originally posted by fa_jing
Hey! Ken Chung Sifu looks like he has some muscles! Do you guys work on building the body?

I believe he has a natural "bulkiness". I haven't heard of anyone training with weights, unless it was on their own.

I wish I had arms that big!

[red5angel]

Nope Fa_jing, he has just natural been sort of a solid man. I think some of his pole excersise might give him strong forearms but in general we are told to avoid weight training etc.. it isnt necessary. the soft approach doesnt need it so we dont work on it. I think Leung Sheung was even a little bigger then Ken!

[aelward]

I just realized that you were the guy I used to talk a lot with on Yahoo Clubs. Hope your training is going well!

[Michael]

Hi Aelward.

I saw your name the other day. I was going to drop you a line but you beat me to it. It's been a while since I posted at the old Yahoo forum.

Thanks for the encouraging word, as always. You were one of the more level-headed, no-nonsense voices on that forum.

My training is progressing, slowly and methodically. The wing chun I did before was in the Leung Sheung family, as it is now; it was just incomplete in some areas. Carl Dechiara showed me what was missing from my wing chun and what was possible if I worked on correcting some fundamentals. I was so convinced of his methodology that I adopted his training curriculum. The essence which was not passed on to us from my previous teacher and his teacher was how to develop a powerful root and using it to channel your opponent's energy without having to move much. Not easy stuff to learn. This all comes from Ken Chung, who doesn't move unless he has to.

Our whole group started over from scratch last fall, learning everything over again from the beginning. It's humbling for us long-timers but necessary. Before you can built a great tower you need to have a rock solid foundation. My foundation, I discovered, had cracks in it.

Hope you're doing well, Aelward.

Regards,

Michael

[black and blue]

"I was so convinced of his methodology that I adopted his training curriculum."

Can you post Carl's curriculum here on the forum?

Thanks

Duncan

[kj]

Hi Michael. Just me here. :)


Originally posted by Michael
Our whole group started over from scratch last fall, learning everything over again from the beginning. It's humbling for us long-timers but necessary. Before you can built a great tower you need to have a rock solid foundation. My foundation, I discovered, had cracks in it.

As you know, we share a similar experience in this regard.

Hope your workshop was great. As there is endless need for corrections and working out, I am sure you must have gained a lot from that part. Did you gain any new or deepened insights in understanding or for practice you might like to share?

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[kj]

Hi Aelward.

If I'm not mistaken, some of my sihings spent some time with you recently.

Sounded like they had a great time working out with you and your group. If I were only closer or in that area more often, I'd love to join them in meeting up with you sometime. Small world, but wide continent.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[[Censored]]

Hey! Ken Chung Sifu looks like he has some muscles! Do you guys work on building the body?

This body shape is a result of his interpretation of SLT, I believe. Not "natural" or coincidental.

[red5angel]

Censored - What do you mean? I know Ken is supposed to do his SLT real slow and relaxed.

[kj]

Originally posted by [Censored]
Hey! Ken Chung Sifu looks like he has some muscles! Do you guys work on building the body?

This body shape is a result of his interpretation of SLT, I believe. Not "natural" or coincidental.

I don't understand, Censored. Are you talking about Ken's "posture" or about his size and substance?

I assure you he is naturally large, and also as he himself says, because "he likes to eat." His manner of practicing the first set would not account for his size, though I often wonder to what degree his swimming may contribute to "cannons for arms," as they say.

He frequently says that smaller people are better illustrations, inasmuch as his own size can easily lead to faulty assumptions about the nature of our practice, especially in regards to reliance on strength and mass.

If you are talking about his overall posture, especially in the shoulder area, then I think it likely that his practice has impacted that part.

Ken does have unusual muscular development in the elbow and forearm area, and also in knee area, but it is quite localized rather than in the major muscle areas of the arms and legs.

Does this help or clarify?

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[fa_jing]

I saw big forearms, that's what I was referring to. Probably from Dragron pole practice. The expanded frame can be developed from swimming or just WC practice, the chambering of the fist.

-FJ

[gnugear]

I swam all the way through college and still have those broad shoulders ... maybe there's hope for me yet LOL!

KJ,
Do you know if he's swimming on a regular basis? I gave it up because I got sick of it after 13 years, but I also noticed it contributed to this awful "hunch" that I'm desperately tryng to get rid of!

Ken's posture, on the other hand, looks insanely stable and straight.

[kj]

Originally posted by gnugear
KJ,
Do you know if he's swimming on a regular basis? I gave it up because I got sick of it after 13 years, but I also noticed it contributed to this awful "hunch" that I'm desperately tryng to get rid of!

I don't know for sure how often he swims these days. Hard to imagine he's given it up. OTOH, he's incredibly busy (major understatement) and I don't know how he would fit it consistently into such a schedule. Then again, I don't know how he manages to fit in as much as he does of everything else, either. I am pretty sure he still goes scuba diving when the opportunity arises.



Ken's posture, on the other hand, looks insanely stable and straight.


He is definitely not hunched. He just has broad shoulders and big arms. His posture is excellent, well balanced, and as you observed, very stable.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[aelward]

Hi KJ,

Yes, we just got together with some of Ken's and Ben's students last Monday; we had a really great time on our side as well. Truly an enjoyable learning experience.

We often organize cross-school get-togethers, usually on Sundays, that draw people from several different lineages in the area-- including Ho Kam Min, Wong Sheung Leung, Leung Sheung, and others. It is always a great learning experience to see how different people interpret and apply the same principles and theories.

Next time you are in the Bay Area, drop me a line!

[kj]

Originally posted by aelward
We often organize cross-school get-togethers, usually on Sundays, that draw people from several different lineages in the area-- including Ho Kam Min, Wong Sheung Leung, Leung Sheung, and others. It is always a great learning experience to see how different people interpret and apply the same principles and theories.

That's great that you have so many different folks to touch hands and exchange with, especially if it's on a friendly basis.

Likewise, we have get-togethers with various MA friends and acquaintances from time to time; Wing Chun and other arts. Matter of fact, we had a little picnic this past weekend. Mostly local folks, though a few made it in from out of town. Some guys from the Moy Yat family stopped by. Another old training partner of ours who is with John Mellilo now. We narrowly missed Dave McKnight, but will catch him next time. ;) Jack Ling, who is a student of Leung Sheung's, and a couple of his guys joined us. A terrific Hung Ga friend of ours made it too, and we had a blast working with him.

I agree with you, these types of friendly exchanges are great.



Next time you are in the Bay Area, drop me a line!

Thanks. It would be a privilege, and I hope I can work it out one of these days. :)

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[Michael]

Did you gain any new or deepened insights in understanding or for practice you might like to share?
Actually our seminar isn't until this weekend so I have no insights to share at this time. Perhaps next week, though they may be of the "how badly I suck" variety. :-)

Always glad to hear from you, Kathy Jo.

Michael

[Michael]

Can you post Carl's curriculum here on the forum?

It may not mean much but here goes. The Leung Sheung lineage emphasizes two things in particular: a strong root and precise movements. Our stance is deeper and narrower than what I did before. It is not a happy stance. It takes many months of working hard at it in order to develop the right muscles in the knees and finally getting a sense that your legs are "quiet." It hurts and beginners often cannot hold it for more than three or four minutes. Probably the number one reason some people quit after a week or two with us is because they don't want to do the stance. It can be a little painful.

Carl's foundation curriculum consists of a number of warm up exercises to help students develop and sense different kinds of energy in their bodies, find their center, as well as help develop a root.

After the warm up exercises we do the following.

1. We do about a 15 minute SLT in the deep stance, knees almost touching but the body still in proper alignment---i.e., the butt isn't sticking out. Working the form and really focusing on the stance is a key part of what we do. The distance between the knees is less than the fist length you often hear about.

2. Then we spend the rest of class doing partner drills. First is Don Chi. The emphasis is on precision of movement and sensing your partner's energy. I realize almost all Wing Chun schools will say something like this; however, I've noticed many have a slightly different focus. We're much more precise in our movements than we were before and spent more time feeling where our partner's energy is---while keeping the low, deep stance.

3. Rooting drill. This is hard to explain in print but basically one person sends energy into his partner who tries to absorb it and rechannel the energy into the ground without collapsing his structure or moving backwards. If your body moves even half an inch you've changed your center, compromising your root, and opened yourself up to being easily uprooted. Obviously there's a point where you can absorb only so much energy before you have to turn or react. The idea is by not moving and being able to absorb more energy you force your opponent to commit more, thus making it much easier to subdue him. If you turn or react too quickly to an incoming force you may give away too much to your attacker. Ken Chung does not move unless he has to. Carl is very good at this, too.

4. Lap Sao. If done with a little energy in the punch then you learn to absorb and rechannel the incoming energy in a more dynamic manner than the rooting drill above. I say "rechannel" here instead of "redirect" because redirect often seems to involve moving an arm or turning the body. Rechanneling means moving the energy internally without moving the body at all. Trickier.

5. Change partners and do it again, then again, then again.

That's pretty much the basics of what we do. There's more to Carl's curriculum but it's all based on getting a passable root and sensitivity from these drills. For the first six months under Carl the drills I've listed were all we did, working the stance, the root, and senstivity. And even with new things added afterwards, we still work hard on the same drills in every class in order to fine tune what we have. But I now feel a difference in my structure, a sense of it being more substantial. I still have a ways to go in getting my root. Eventually, having this root lets you redirect energy without sinking the legs. For most people, Ken can absorb their energy without having to resort to the horse stance. He can do it from a "normal" standing posture. But that comes from decades of working the stance so he can internally make all the connections he needs to with his body and make it look effortless.

As Ken says, wing chun is all about the knees and elbows. Well, my knees are certainly far more stable than they've ever been.

For what it's worth,

Michael

[kj]

Originally posted by Michael
Actually our seminar isn't until this weekend so I have no insights to share at this time.

Oops. Red5Angel mention something about being a little beaten up and hagard after 2 days of working out, which I think threw me into a time/space warp.

Have a great workshop, and I'll remain on hold.

Regards,
- kj

[[Censored]]

I know Ken is supposed to do his SLT real slow and relaxed.

Sure, but that doesn't mean what you think it means.

I don't understand, Censored. Are you talking about Ken's "posture" or about his size and substance?

Yes. :) I am also talking about his mind though.

What, for example, is the full meaning and significance of "energy out to the fingertips"? When the qi moves, the BLOOD moves. And what is the long-term effect of a localized high blood pressure? Long-term, as in 40 minutes a day, for 30 years? Tell me your opinion.

I assure you he is naturally large, and also as he himself says, because "he likes to eat."

So do I. So does Roger Ebert. So why aren't we all the same shape then?

Genetics, you say? Not exactly.

Ken does have unusual muscular development in the elbow and forearm area, and also in knee area,

...and the shoulder area, and the back area, and the hip area...did we leave anything out? ;)

Please forgive my "ordosclan"-style ranting today, I feel inspired. :)

[kj]

Originally posted by [Censored]
[b]What, for example, is the full meaning and significance of "energy out to the fingertips"? When the qi moves, the BLOOD moves. And what is the long-term effect of a localized high blood pressure? Long-term, as in 40 minutes a day, for 30 years? Tell me your opinion.

Okay, now I better see what you are getting at. Thanks for expounding.

Genetics, swimming, and a propensity to eat lots of good food still seem like more prominent factors, IMHO, though I agree that the qi/blood element could make some additional contribution.

Considering the qi/blood factor as the primary explanation, it stands to reason that Ip Man and kindred others would have become large too. That was apparently not the case. Ip Man was relatively small throughout his life (though had a little more weight during some younger years); Ken was comparatively large even as a teenager.



...and the shoulder area, and the back area, and the hip area...did we leave anything out? ;)


Wise guy, eh? ;)

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[[Censored]]

Considering the qi/blood factor as the primary explanation...

That is not my intention. I didn't even mention his interpetation of "elbows in", which IMO and IME is also very relevant here. The point is, if we want to know why his results are unique, we should look at how his practice is unique.

Ken is stout, he swims, and he eats alot. OK, but these are common traits, and his Wing Chun is anything but common, wouldn't you say?

...it stands to reason that Ip Man and kindred others would have become large too

Larger (not large), according to their frame. Unless Ken is doing something differently then Ip Man did. I would not place Ken's interpretation at the center of the WC spectrum, where one would expect to find a dogmatic reproduction.

[kj]

Points noted. Thanks again for elaborating your thoughts.

I see more clearly now that you are getting at something beyond his physical appearance.

Just curious, have you met Ken directly?

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[gnugear]

Okay Micheal and Red,

Time for a report! :)

[Michael]

OK Gnugear, since you asked.

We had a good turn out for our seminar, around 15 people, a few came from other schools. For me there was not much new but I did gain a greater depth of understanding of things I've seen before, which I'll get to in a moment. Some of the enjoyment of this for me is seeing how our new people respond to what they saw.

In his seminars, Carl elaborates on developing relaxed energy and penetrating power by making all the muscles of the body contract a little, but all at the same time, for just a moment, before relaxing again. He demonstrates this by sending energy into each participate, one at a time, barely moving his body as he does so.

Today I got an e-mail from one of our newer students. He started less about two months ago and had never been to a seminar before. This is part of what he said, "When he [Carl] had us fold our arms and he hit us projecting energy into our bodies - I felt it!! It felt as though i swallowed a hand buzzer. I had always thought that the "chi/ki energy" that martial arts speak of was just a esoteric metaphor for momentum - ie the re-direction of Ki to throw an opponent in Aikido. I was wrong. very wrong."

As I said, for me I got a greater understanding of why we train the way we do. Our lineage focuses a lot on rooting and an almost fanatical obsession with precision. This was demonstrated often as Carl would illustrate his "fighting" strategy. He doesn't try to win, doesn't try to force anything, doesn't go in with a game plan---i.e., I'll fake this so he'll do this, then I'll punch him. No, he engages his opponent, matches his energy and listens. If his opponent gives him one pound of energy towards his center he matches it with one pound. If he's given ten pounds of energy he matches it with ten. If his opponent matches him that way he does nothing but listen. If his opponent gives him less or more energy then it's an invitation to take advantage of it. Carl then makes a move. If his opponent overcompensates from that move then that creates the opening for damage.

This matching of energy mainly matters when it's coming towards your center. If your opponent's energy is off your center by a fraction you wouldn't bother to match it but would help it go in that direction instead. It's the energy directed at your center that's the most difficult to deal with, because if you don't deal with it properly you get hit. With this kind of energy you need to be able to absorb some of it before you can redirect it. Some people will collapse their arm and so get hit. Others can maintain their arm structure and let their upper body absorb the energy, which, unfortunately, forces them back slightly off their central core. Carl showed repeatedly that using just half a pound of energy against someone who cannot adequately deal with that energy is enough to uproot them. Once you start going backwards you're done; you're mind is no longer thinking of your opponent, it's worried about regaining your equilibrium. You don't need a lot of technique to manhandle an opponent who has no balance. But you need to develop a strong root of your own and the ability to absorb and rechannel energy inside your body to do this.

The eye-opener for many is that virtually no one can adequately deal with half a pound of energy if applied correctly. Why? Because they don't have a good root and can't maintain structure without over-reacting, UNLESS they've learned how to deal with this energy.

That's what is so impressive about this kind of skill. It's not whacking you with a flurry of intense techniques, like charging in with a chain punches. It's forcing you to make mistakes in your structure so a pound or less of energy disrupts your center, your balance, which creates a massive hole in your defense, which then can lead to a few well placed whacks.

Ken Chung likes to say "Don't be greedy." People want to hit too much. Or they use too much force. Because of that they usually give away too much to their opponent. If your opponent can read these signals when touching you, you're cooked.

As with most wing chun, talking about it means only so much, it's when you feel it being done to you that you go, "Omigod! what was that?" I think all of our new people and our guests had several of those moments after Carl made them dance like puppets on a string.

That's what makes this martial art so cool.

Have a happy 4th of July.

Regards,

Michael

[gnugear]

Thanks for the report Micheal!

Carl may go over basics a lot, but it's like SLT ... no matter how many times you do it, there's always some little jewel that gets unearthed.

[red5angel]

Yep, its the precision we are there to develope. Without that precision you are just flailing around. With it, you can open a gap that most others wouldnt percieve as being there and make it wider or use it to destroy your opponent before he knows what is happening!
You dont have to worry about speed or strength with this sort of precision! thats the beauty of it, you wait and listen and let your opponent defeat himself! With a higher level of sensitivity you can lead your opponent around with incredible control, no need to beat him with speed and strength!

[Marshdrifter]

I was one of those guests that Michael mentioned.

I really didn't know what to expect before I got there. Everybody
turned out to be really nice and friendly. Most of the older
students know my Sifu, having studied under the same teacher
for a while, so we're very much like cousins. Me being the
uncivilized hick cousin from the wrong side of the river. :)

Carl was really good. He can best be summed up with the word
"precision." That really seems to be his focus and he's really good
at it. Meeting him has forced me to slightly modify my conception
of what good wing chun is. It's still pretty much what I thought
it was, only... um... more so. It's given me a lot of reinforcement
in the respect I have for Ken Chung and his students.

I learned a lot and walked away with a huge mental list of stuff
to work on (sign of a good seminar, imo). Sadly, I was only able
to attend the first day. I hear I missed a lot of fun stuff that
second day.

[red5angel]

Marshdrifter, it was fun having you and remember you are always welcome to come out and train if you get the inkling to do so!