How often....

[Merryprankster]

Do you spar?

What exactly does sparring mean at your school? For instance, I obviously don't kick in boxing, but we certainly still call it sparring. In BJJ, unless I'm practicing MMA type stuff with some of the other fighters, we obviously don't start hitting each other.

How hard is the contact?
When do you start sparring, on average.

I can start.

I spar around 8-10 rounds a week in boxing.
I started sparring about 8 weeks into my training.
I get hit alot :)

In BJJ we spar anywhere from 10 minutes to over an hour, every day.
I started sparring day one.

[MonkeySlap Too]

I 'spar' several times a week, although for reasons that shall go untold, my sparring days are numbered. Sparring for me depends on who shows up, and what we hope to get out of it. Lately I prefer starting with myself in a disadvantaged position (like in the gaurd against someone who really knows how to control it) and go from there. I've been playing for a few decades, so I pretty much know what I can do in free sparring, so I pretty much prefer to go where I am unfamiliar so I can learn more. It really toughens you up while keeping your ego realistic.

I've never played point hitting stuff, as it always seemed stupid to me.

My students usually go a few years before sparring - but in this process there are drills designed to stress them and prepare them along the way. Standing grappling usually starts after about a year.

i boxed for a few years, and appreciate what it does for a student, but our philosophy is different, hence the longer period before you start free fighting.

That's a pretty good summary, it's worked for me.

[MonkeySlap Too]

I should also state that I am not focused on groundfighting, which is why I like to start there. It's a challenge to see if I can turn it into my fight.

Hey, sometimes you get the bear, sometimes the bear gets you.

[MonkeySlap Too]

Oh, I left out the knife sparring. It's funny my ground n' pound buddies don't like this one as much. But it's another reality check.

[Anarcho]

Between 6 and 8 rounds per week Muay Thai, medium contact, been doing it since day one.

About 40 minutes per week BJJ, since day one.

About ten minutes every other week Wing Chun, light contact, since about four months in.

[CanadianBadAss]

Well... with the way you put it, I could say I spar for about 2 hours 3 times a week doing chi sao. But ussually I think of sparring as free fighting, NHB type stuff. The other day I practicing with another student prepare for a San shou competition and the gloves were freakin massive, wouldn't really even consider that as actuall sparring either...

[Merryprankster]

Is chi sao 'free-fighting' within the confines of typical WC structure, or is it more like a drill where you stop at a certain point? I would say that if it's "stand-up WC sparring," then it's sparring, but if there is some goal other than beating on each other a little, then it's probably a drill.

Just my take.

[fa_jing]

Uh, MP - Chi sao is kind of like light contact sparring. It's basically point sparring, except with no gloves, and you start with both arms engaged. I'd say it's "sparring" as much as rolling in BJJ is "sparring." Rules vary, such as what is the object, do you allow kicks, etc. It is usually pretty controlled. Some of the same deficiencies as point sparring: limited to one range, no heavy contact involved.

As for myself, we do very little chi sao in my (non-traditional) school. I wish we did more, but I'm not that big on it anyway. We only meet once a week anyway, and depending on how Sifu's feeling, we might free-spar anywhere from 0 to 4 times a month. We haven't free-sparred in class in a long time. However, when we do, it is pretty intense. Sometimes, we spar early in class, so we have more energy, especially for the kicks. Other times, we spar after we already worked out. "Sparring is not an option," Sifu likes to say, what he means is this is a requirement. Being a JKD man, he points out that you can't learn to swim on dry land. Sparring started pratically the first class, but we are semi-private students and I came to him with moderate experience to start with. We started with 3 * 3 minutes rounds, hands only. Last time we free-sparred, I went 2 rounds hands, + 2 round hands and feet, then 2 more rounds with the other student, after a little rest. We allow takedowns and ground-fighting, but try to keep it safe, as we train on a hard floor. 14 oz boxing gloves, athletic kung fu shoes, headgear. Sifu is a big, strong dude and he lets us beat on him a little. He actually can smack us around at will, his power and timing are serious. FWIW, he has boxing experience and MMA fight experience. He likes to push us to the limits of our endurance, to "find out where the power comes from." I know that I don't really wake up until I get hit in the head. Also, he says I'm better when I'm exhausted and my back's against the wall, usually by the 3rd round, then I start opening up and throwing combos, fast and loose, without thinking about it. He says that's when he has to be more careful with me.

Like I said, we haven't free-sparred in a while, but we do stomach taps for up to 6 rounds, maybe once every 3-4 classes. We have changed this drill a little bit so the the defender actively tries to block the other guy, makes it more instructive.

We do lots of bag/pad work, too. 4 * 5 minutes kicking and punching drill against the airshield, it's a killer.

Actually, I've met with WaterDragon and we are going to spar once a week, 4 rounds to start off. The first time will be this week. My sifu is pretty happy about this, he knows we don't get enough chances in class.

-FJ

[diego]

when boxers spar rounds do they ever go all out?, i'm thinking it would be stupid to go full force, like when tyson spars with his peeps is he trying to knock them out in the first round?, i doubt it as people would have braindamage in thier second year, thats my logik is this false?.
I was thinking about this in the shower this morn, im at the library just logged on and seen your post....... you and me were like this

>--------<:rolleyes:

"if you aintseen that friends ep, this aint funny!.

[MonkeySlap Too]

See, I would argue that sparring IS a drill, not a fight.

Been in both. No comparison, really.

[Merryprankster]

OOOOKKKK, lets tone it back a bit. DOWN BOYS!!! :) I'm not trying to start a fight.

MonkeySlapToo I liken sparring to a scrimmage and a drill to working on specific aspects of a game. A scrimmage lets you see how it all works at full speed, but you are still missing certain psychological elements, just like the diference between a game and a scrimmage.

Fa-jing--I had no idea what Chi Sao was, so thanks for the info, but I'm not trying to start a challenge here. As far as "BJJ Sparring," that's why I phrased my question exactly the way I phrased it when asking about the Chi Sao--BJJ rolling is "sparring," within the confines of BJJ. Boxing is sparring too, even though it doesn't have kicks, but it's sparring within the confines of boxing.

Diego--Boxing sparring takes on many speeds, just like it does in any other martial art. Sometimes you try to beat the crap out of each other, sometimes you're working on movement and landing shots. I've done both sorts :)

[Ryu]

I don't train at a school anymore, but I try to spar at least 1-3 times a week. Sparring can be anything from just newaza randori, to NHB type sparring with gloves and head protectors. I also try to do any type of "drilling" with a sparring mentality. For instance, I practice de-escalation drills with gloves and headgear so that if I don't read him right, and he throws a punch at me, I get nailed...hard. If I practice anything with a partner I usually always put in resistence until I can do it with 100% resistence.

Even during solo training with a heavy bag or wrestling dummy, I still focus on it like I'm actually sparring.
Sometimes of course I just drill techniques on days I feel fatigued, etc.

Ryu

[apoweyn]

diego,

ya know the problem with these discussions? we're all too cynical. we can't have a discussion without assuming that 'this guy' is talking crap about our style, or our school, or our teacher, or whatever.

what say, as an exercise, we all try and approach this with the assumption that we're trying to gather information to form a common language, rather than assuming that we're all trying to make one another look dumb.

merryprankster asked a valid question in a neutral tone. so perhaps we can save the defensiveness for another time, yeah?

personally, i like the hierarchy that's developing here: there are drills (designed to exercise a certain skill, technique or other parameter), sparring (designed to increase the randomness and intensity a step), then there's fighting.

obviously, that list isn't inclusive.

BTW, haven't sparred much lately. but hoping to get back to it more when school settles down a bit.


stuart b.

[apoweyn]

i'm not sure that 'sparring' is a specific exercise. some people consider that it implies a certain level of contact, certain equipment, the preclusion of certain targets, etc. but what if you perform an exercise designed to emphasize one skill in 'martial artist A' but 'martial artist B' is allowed to do whatever they want? what if they're wearing gear?

i'm thinking that it's all on a sliding scale. drills --> sparring drills --> sparring, etc. (that's not designed to be a precise designation. more like a colour spectrum. where does green end and blue begin?)

as a vague working definition, though, sparring is based on the removal of things that can be taken for granted. in a sparring drill, perhaps one person's technique can be taken for granted (whatever he's working on at that moment) while the other's cannot. in one-step sparring, both can be taken for granted. you both know what the exercise is. (calling that sparring is very optional.) in free sparring, you can make fewer assumptions about what's coming your way and vice versa (though perhaps within the confines of your school's or style's rules). in more expansive senses of free sparring, there's less and less you can take for granted (i.e., 'he won't take me down' or 'she won't punch me in the face').

where sparring begins and ends is kinda subjective, to my mind.


stuart b.

[Merryprankster]

I agree that there is a sliding scale--I'm hoping that "common sense," will intervene here and allow people to post how often they spar without being silly about it.

For instance, I don't include jab sparring rounds, and I definitely don't include guard passing drills, even though they are live.

[apoweyn]

42

[Merryprankster]

LOL at Ap's Hitchhiker's reference.

[MonkeySlap Too]

Hm. I didn't mean to come across as argumentative. We all use similar words as 'jargon' and the jargon varies based on what we play.

I'd still stick to anything short a real challenge match being a drill. Different rules or agreed upon parameters make each type of sparring good (or not good) for specific types of training.

MERRYPRANKSTER: I actually really like your analogy to a scrimmage.

I'd say the only significant difference in attitude is that I require people to train more before they start fighting. From my perspective this helps prevent the early development of bad habits. But again, my training methodology and strategies are different than those of Muay Thai or BJJ. Just different, that's all.

[Merryprankster]

I can appreciate that MonkeySlapToo :)

By the way, I didn't find you completely argumentative. Think of comments as a pre-emptive measure. I didn't want this to turn into a "You MMA types think sparring is all that matters thread." :)

[CanadianBadAss]

hey merry, here r some clips of chi sao Chi Sao (http://www.sunnytang.com/vingtsun/chisao/tech3.html)

I think in this clip the guy is deminstrating chi sao techniques, in real chi sao the other guy would be fighting back, and it wouldnt be staged.

[Merryprankster]

Thanks. That was actually very informative.

Do you start at that distance, or start out some distance away?

[CanadianBadAss]

Depends, usaully we start at that distant doing a drill and then one of us will start attacking and we start doing chi sao. But when ever we sperate(i get thrown or somthing) we usually close the distance with punchs or kicks and then start doing chi sao again.

[Merryprankster]

Cool. Thanks!

[NPMantis]

I meet my training partner once a week in the park and we spar till we're both ready to drop, we don't do rounds, just go at it solid for probably around 20-30 mins I guess, could be longer.

[diego]

I dont belong to a school and all my friends complain when i use them as a dummy!, so sparring unfortunatly right now is not part of my syllabus, now i can only focus on power development, wich aint to bad cuz i know a fight but i wouldnt openly say i can use my skills in a fight, however unlike many i have the will to not stop swinging. I have boxed abit with groups of friends throughout the years, havent in awhile, one thing i remember is thier was speeds to it like MerryP wrote. Sometimes I would want to knock out my partner, but it was really only from the perspect of chumping him, wheras i am sure when tyson used to get in that ring for million dollar prizes when he was first coming up, He always knocked dudes out in the first round, or that was the cliche to his mystique before he fell off, the attitude he would fight with i presume is onpar with wanting to break someones neck, now i am curious if he sparred like that with his trainers?. I mean they would wear headgear, and i think about when i would try to chump someone i knew i could beat, even with headgear, if tyson came at you consistently like he would break your neck if he wasnt wearing gloves, and these guys actually spar like that- like they want to kill you for that miilion dollar prize, as oppossed to trying to beat you for the grand sport of boxing; I'm wondering how in the **** could you spar kf techniques like this, like your a ignorant **** and thier is a million dollars behind it, and you are in killmode.

the question is when tyson was the man, and could knock out most opponnents in one round, did he go that hard in sparring

im thinking i hope not but i guess if you break up the speeds you will be allright...but im talking about this guys going to rape your family if you lose full power shots... wich is how i train for on my bag, when my blood is pumping, im just like i would feel bad doing those shots on a friend using just boxing techniques, forget kf that would be just nasty.

so how does one train for reality, and dont say ufc, that may be the best event one could test thier skills, but its not reality unless you are a total ******* and your going in thier to kill!.

i think the best thing you could do is go out and pick fights:)
dont forget to answer the boxing question, i was wondering about the whole tyson thing before i read this thread!.

[Merryprankster]

Diego--

Ask Tyson's trainers. I imagine there is a mix of trying to knock his opponents head off and just taking it easy.

[diego]

Your in a boxing school right? thats why im bringing this up!, you know what i mean though right?, about wanting to kill since i dont box right now it sort of buggs me out visualizing mixing my wanting to kill attitude with wanting to win.
Do you ever go all out at someone when you spar, especially someone you are friends with, and i mean mentally all out, because i think that is where the real fight traits count, is from the attitude gained from warfare the rest is just techniques.
I'm really just curious if this is a workable attitude in boxing schools that have to pay insurance, and be certified basically, You Know what I mean?.