testing Wing Chun skill

[fantom]

You meet a friendly sole who also learns wing chun.
You are interested in comparing your skills and hopefully learning something from each other.
Do you:
a) watch each other do a form, then discuss it.
b) Do some Chi Sao (what internationally friendly rules apply).
c) talk about lineages and whose is better.
d) demonstrate and discuss some techniques.
e) Avoid the topic of wing chun.
f) Other?
g) a mixture of the above.

The goal is not to see who is better, but to use wing chun to get to know each other better, and maybe help/learn something in the process.

[Wingman]

My answer would be:
b) Do some Chi Sao (what internationally friendly rules apply).

Since you come from different lineages/schools, you have different ways of doing things. I think chi sao is the only way to know what works and what doesn't. "The moment of contact is the moment of truth". See if you can apply the wing chun theories in chi sao and make it work.

For the other choices, these are my comments:

a) watch each other do a form, then discuss it.
If you just do and discuss the forms, you won't learn much. I'm sure that both of you would do the forms differently. And there is no point arguing which form is correct or not.

c) talk about lineages and whose is better.
There is no point in talking about lineages and which lineage is better. You will only get into an argument.

d) demonstrate and discuss some techniques.
This would only work if you have a willing partner. If your partner is not "willing", his reaction to your technique might be different from what you expected. And your technique might not work.

[yuanfen]

Good points IMO Wingman!

[Mr Punch]

I agree with Wingman: chi sau is the best way BUT

fantom, you did say you were both interested in getting to know each other and your styles so I would not rule out drills and even checking each others' forms...

Wingman, he didn't say they were going to try and prove which form was correct, but imo learning the differences in a form can be extremely useful! And would a different reaction not be useful?

fantom, go for it! I've been fortunate enough to learn a few ways of doing 'the same' things in wc, and it enriches the learning experience no end. If you don't get hung up on the correctness of whoever's way, it is a golden opportunity. You can still respectfully disagree, but it helps you to crystallize your own experience.

:)

[red5angel]

Root and sensitivity are what are important, if you dont have these you dont have a solid foundation.

Wingman, I am not sure I understand your d.) answer. Shouldnt your techniques work regardless of whether the person is willing?

[Wingman]

Wingman, I am not sure I understand your d.) answer. Shouldnt your techniques work regardless of whether the person is willing?

red5angel,

I am refering to pre-arranged techniques found in most martial arts demonstrations. In most MA demos, the techniques shown are situational. One person attacks and the others defends using pre-arranged techniques. The defender expects the attacker to react in a certain way in order for his counter to work. For example, partner "A" punches and partner "B" counters with a tan da. "B" hits "A's" face and that's the end of the story. In this case "B's" tan da works. But what if "A" doesn't want to get hit and foils "B's" tan da?

This is where chi sao comes in. Chi sao teaches you how to react if and when your techniques don't work. The 2 wing chun practitioners might start with demonstrating some techniques and discussing them. But I bet that after discussing the merits of the techniques, they will start doing chi sao in order to know the strengths and weakness of the technique being discussed. The only way to know whether the techniques works or not is thru chi sao.

That's why my answer is b) Do some Chi Sao (what internationally friendly rules apply). They may start with comparing the forms or discussing techniques, but they are more likely to end up doing chi sao.

[fa_jing]

I'd talk principles, then put on 16 oz. boxing gloves and go a few rounds. What I'm interested in is: can you apply your Wing Chun?

I ain't looking for new or secret WC techniques, that what my Sifu is for.

Now, if the other player knew a cool WC drill or training method, that's something I'd be interested in.

peace

-FJ

[yuanfen]

good wing chun shouldnt go a few rounds.
But red5angel may have a better answer.

[fa_jing]

Yuan Fen - it does if you hold back, which we would do to have the opportunity to experience more of the other guy's flavor. I'm not going to learn much if he kicks me in the nutts and pokes my eyes out (LOL ;)).

[sunkuen]

you woulda learned that your nutz were exposed and your head was unprotected.:p

[red5angel]

Nope, I am with you on this one yuanfen, the fight should be over quickly, although I think I understand what FJ is getting at.

Fj - why would you use the boxing gloves though? You could probably go barehanded and get a better idea.

[fa_jing]

Sunkuen - A high price to pay!! Drills could be design to test these areas, of course, this is not something to neglect.


Red5 - so I can safely feel their power. I know some would have trouble making the necessary modifications, but after I show them a few things, they would be into it. Obviously my suggestion doesn't create the ultimate laboratory, neither does Chi Sao, IMHO. Just answering the question of what I would do to exchange WC knowledge with a new partner.

[red5angel]

Of course not but you are suggesting a way, I just want to clarify the use of gloves, do you practice wing chun or another art, like boxing?

The only reason I ask for clarification is becuase normally gloves arent necessary. I can see what you mean by feeling their power but I might be of the opinion that you could probably do that anyway. At the very least maybe open fingered gloves?

[fa_jing]

I am not a traditionalist, but WC is my basis style-wise. I don't specifically study other arts, but my Sifu is a JKD student of Ted Wong, in addition to being a great WC man. I do not study JKD, neither the June Fan style nor the theory. I just like some general non style-specific drills and working out with equipment. Here's an example of a drill: Put on bag gloves, kick and punch the airshield which your partner is holding while moving around, slowly and steadily. 4 x 5 minute rounds. Only using WC footwork and strikes.

The reason for the heavy gloves, is it doesn't hurt as bad, at least superficially. Every wing chun movement can be performed, with the exception of the lop sao. You just need to know how to make the necessary adjustments. That said, if you train this way most of the time you will develop bad habits.

Fingerless gloves are a step towards realism, but I'd be worried about control, especially with a new partner. And, to be honest, we would have to take the power down a notch for safety's sake. The one element that I see missing from a lot of WC schools is the emphasis on testing your power against a resisting opponent. Like, is this punch really going to stop him, or will he just brush it off? Is he going to be able to take my punch to give a punch? (I hope not.)

Gotta go, we'll pick it back up on Monday. Cheers ;)

-FJ

[red5angel]

Gotcha, I am outie too see you next week!

[Grendel]

Originally posted by fantom
You meet a friendly sole who also learns wing chun.
You are interested in comparing your skills and hopefully learning something from each other.
Do you:

b) Do some Chi Sao (what internationally friendly rules apply).

The goal is not to see who is better, but to use wing chun to get to know each other better, and maybe help/learn something in the process.

The most important thing to know about each other is who's better. :)

This sort of meeting happens often. IMO, Chi sao is friendly. Seldom are two people evenly matched---as soon as you touch hands, you'll know who is better. Every class I attend, I touch hands with people whose Wing Chun is better than mine, as well as those whose isn't.

I agree there is always something to be learned in the process. :)

Regards,

[yuanfen]

So as not to misunderstand- what exactly do you mean by "touching hands"- and how do you know what you seem to want to know. Specially if someone is a newbie. And how does an observer know?
"Touching hands" has become one of those catch phrases and an
inquiring mind may want to know....?

[Grendel]

Testing Wing Chun Skill


Originally posted by yuanfen
So as not to misunderstand- what exactly do you mean by "touching hands"- and how do you know what you seem to want to know. Specially if someone is a newbie. And how does an observer know?
"Touching hands" has become one of those catch phrases and an
inquiring mind may want to know....?

Hi Yuan Fen,

What do I mean by touching hands?

I guess I'm making a whole passel of assumptions based on Fantom's original query. One is that I've met someone in a social situation or context where we assume a friendly exchange of chi sao with no egos or life and death issues on the line. (Well, O.K., maybe minimal ego.) :) For example, an invited guest at your school, or your brother-in-law's cousin visits from Hong Kong and he happens to study wing chun too.

The situation assumes that we have agreed to chi sao, probably beginning with poon sao and then transitioning to chi sao as discussed on another thread. I would look for the wing chun basics: relaxed rootedness, linear movements, sensitivity, stays on center, good structure---the elements of Ma, Bo, Sun, etc. If my new acquaintance has a better horse than me, I would expect that he will be able to move me and it follows that he'll be able to strike me when he does. Would you agree that a newbie who has some chi sao experience will be able to discern most of this?

As for an observer, I'd like to see him get a turn to touch hands too. :)


Originally posted by fa_jing
I'd talk principles, then put on 16 oz. boxing gloves and go a few rounds. What I'm interested in is: can you apply your Wing Chun?

I ain't looking for new or secret WC techniques, that what my Sifu is for.

Now, if the other player knew a cool WC drill or training method, that's something I'd be interested in.

peace

-FJ

Hi Fa Jing,

I couldn't properly apply my own Wing Chun with gloves on, but I could demonstrate it without gloves in chi sao. I doubt that there are any "new or secret WC techniques," at least worth knowing. The only secret I know is hard work. :) As for cool drills or training methods, if I have confidence in my instructor, and given real world time constraints, I'd only work on what he prescribes on the assumption he knows they lead to better chi sao and better fighting skills.

Regards,