My One and Only Problem With BJJ

[ReverendTim]

Hey, all...

This is probably going to come across as deliberately provocative, and I promise I don't mean it that way.

That said, I have to thank a lot of the MMA and BJJ practioners and posters here and on other forums for making me take a long hard look at my training. Like I've said before, I found some areas where it was wanting, and I've moved to address them. Groundfighting was one of those areas, and though I found a judo club to learn newaza at, I really am most impressed with what I've seen BJJ players pull off at various tournaments and in the UFC and whatnot. It really does seem like a great art.

However, despite the fact that there's a BJJ school not five minutes from my house, I can't bring myself to consider going there, and here's why: the teeming throngs of chest-thumping "BJJ is the only true way" guys I see on the net. I know that not all BJJ players are like this, and probably not even very many of them, but I also can't help but think that this attitude comes from somewhere within BJJ itself. Because there are so many people doing it makes me think that there's some sort of institutionalized machismo to it...I have images of a Cobra Kai-like sensei screaming at his students that this is the only way of the warrior and that all other arts are worthless.

I mean, I think it's great if people have discovered something that they feel is superior to what they've done before, and I can certainly understand wanting to share that kind of revelation, but the subtext isn't usually, "Wow, I found something great I want to share with you." More often than not, it's "You suck and my way (the way of the Brazilian superman) rules!"

Is my perception wicked skewed? Is there built-in machismo? Or is this the same kind of tunnel-visioned enthusiasm that insecure newbies of any art inevitably come away with?

I do want to say that there are quite a few exceptions to the glaring stereotype I just described on this forum, Merryprankster most notably. MP, I get the impression that any BJJ evangelizing you do falls quite squarely in the "whoa, let me show you something great" area.

I guess basically, I notice a trend, and I wonder where it comes from and why.

--
Rev. Tim

P.S. I'm really not trying to pick a fight. I'm honestly curious, and me and my screenplay have come up against horrible writers' block, so I had to write SOMETHING just to get juices flowing.

[Serpent]

Here's an idea. Why not go to that school and take a class? Then decide if you still feel the same way.

I'd certainly like to hear your report!

(And no, I don't study BJJ).

[dre]

Originally posted by ReverendTim
Hey, all...


However, despite the fact that there's a BJJ school not five minutes from my house, I can't bring myself to consider going there, and here's why: the teeming throngs of chest-thumping "BJJ is the only true way" guys I see on the net. I know that not all BJJ players are like this, and probably not even very many of them, but I also can't help but think that this attitude comes from somewhere within BJJ itself. Because there are so many people doing it makes me think that there's some sort of institutionalized machismo to it...I
.

Hajlilujah! Halilujah! Amen! Amen my brother!

Why study an art that is bound to lower you're IQ?

[SevenStar]

yeah, I think that's mad skewed. However, I do believe that the inception of NHB fights had a lot to do with it. Back when MMA began, the most frequent winners were grapplers. that combined with the gracie's "80% of all fights go to the ground" catch phrase led many people to believe that grappling is the be all end all. Nowadays, we know that this is not true and that you also need to have well developed striking techniques. Also, look at the nature of the game. You have to get psyched. you have to get hype. ever play football in school? you didn't go to the field thinking "okay, we may lose" you went to the field thinking that you could take on the world.

[dre]

I was never that way. I know I can win. I know I can loose. So I take it as it comes, there is no need to anticipate.

When I spar, I don't think those things , I just do.

I know this sounds very Daoist, but it's the way I've always thought :)

[SevenStar]

sure, for you. I'm the same way almost....I just don't care. I fight for the fight and nothing more. winning or losing doesn't matter. I almost had to forfeit a fight once because I was so calm that the paramedic said my blood pressure was so low that I should be dead. he had to take my blood pressure like 3 times.

I think I am right for the majority though - at least among those that seriously compete. that attitude while getting you psyched may eventually intimidate your opponent. Look at vanderlei. How many people really WANT to fight him? and he has said that to get psyched up he pretends that his opponent just ate his children. In other words, he goes in to kill, and does a good job of it. I don't really see a problem with all the machisimo though, as long as ig doesn't get out of hand. a little friendly competition is good, and all of the machisimo adds to that.

[GinSueDog]

Just look at it this way, Brazil has a very mannly culture. They have been doing Vale Tudo there for many years. Any martial art coming from Brazil is going to have a certain higher level of machismo. That being said, I also want to point out it really depends on the instructor and school as to what attitude you will encounter. Every school I've gone to, egos were never a problem.-ED

[KnightSabre]

I know many of you may think that because of my Style Vs Style post earlier I may be one of the arrogant BJJ guys.

If you came to my school though I promise you will find it to be totally different,many of my students have come up to me and said they checked out a few schools and they like mine not only for the style and techniques but also for the friendly and good natured atmosphere.
I'm actually quite the happy go lucky guy.

I think alot of BJJ schools will suprise you that way.

[Ground Dragon]

The bjj school I go to is not like this at all. The people there are all great and only interested in one thing, helping you progress in bjj and become a better grappler. It also helps that the school is also skewed towards mma so they keep an open mind as to other martial arts. But I think a lot of bjj schools are like that, although there are sure to be bad ones out there as with any art.
And there certainly isn't a sensei screaming at the students. In fact, I think you will find bjj is a much more relaxed atmosphere than almost any traditional school. From what I've read, in a lot of bjj schools in Brazil, the class times aren't even set in stone. People show up when they want and stay as long as they want, not even a formal beginning or ending, just training.

[Water Dragon]

Rev,
That's like saying Gong Fu guys are a bunch of herd following lemmings with no perception of reality because of some discussion board participants.

[myosimka]

Definitely some truth to this. But it's not universal so check out the individual school. Some of the guys I work with are very much this way some are not. I just take all comments with a grain of salt. I work my standup game and escapes mostly(Plus track jitsu) and let them say what they want. I do it because I feel it's necessary and it's **** fun too. Just ignore the trash talking. Besides most of the guys I know appreciate a good technique regardless of source. I use wrist and elbow locks from karate all the time. Plus stancework is good for defending the initial takedown. Everyone in class sees that. (The bizarre thing is many of them still say karate sucks. "Good move, dude. What exactly did you do? No, don't tell me about the stances; that stuff is a waste of time. Just tell me how you got to that sprawl." Whatever.)

Mostly I think it's the trendy thing. As each art has made it's way to the top of the hill of public opinion it has brought with it this kind of crap. Read karate texts from the late 60s/early 70s or Taijitsu articles from the 80s or...you get the point.

Plus I think the style superiority thing is inherent in MA. Kind of like religion. If you believe that christianity is the bast path to enlightenment and eternal life, would you practice shinto? Unlikely. My experience is that most styles have this sort of thing in them to a certain degree.


On a more specific note, do you know the lineage of the nearby school? I have found that the Machado schools are much more respectful of other styles than the Gracie schools. Not trying to stir anything else up with that comment, just a personal observation. And yes, it's just my anecdotal experience. Not a universal truth.


Lastly, my opinion on the style v. style debate: It seems that the best style is the one that you enjoy enough to train hard and stick with because that's how one becomes a badass. My karate instructor can hold his own with almost anyone despite advancing years because he found something he enjoyed doing and has trained continuously(not always hardcore but always something) for 35+ years. His fellow master in our style who continues to practice but has devoted most of his time to kendo including wakizashe work is frightening with any kind of straight weapon. My dad wrestled and competed on state level but quit at 18. Needless to say he's not exactly a badass now. We have students walk into the BJJ class all the time. If the ones who came in just the last year had stuck around, we'd have over 100 students. On any given night there are 4-10. IS BJJ the most effective art? Maybe for that core group. The rest will only get themselves hurt.

[Merryprankster]

Reverend,

There's a lot of testosterone at tournaments. I don't know why. There's also a lot of "my style is the best," everywhere you go. I know lots of people who think they can't be taken down or the infamous "that won't work on me..."

Boooool-sheet as Wallid Ismail would say....

Here is the atmosphere of most schools:

1. They believe in hard sparring under a specific set of guidelines designed to reduce injury. You typically spar after almost every class.

2. Most schools are on a first name basis with senior students and instructors. Titles are rarely every used. I call Lloyd Lloyd or sometimes Master Lloyd, but I picked that up from the kids--besides, I try to make sure that I use Master Lloyd in front of the kids anyway, same with some of my training partners--I call them Master sometimes, especially in front of the kids.

3. Relaxed and laid back. No yes sensei no sensei stuff.... no hyper aggression. Most schools teach that relaxation and flow are the keys to good BJJ. Redirection of force and unexpected forces are paramount.

4. Most schools do not encourage a "tough guy," mentality--at least, not those that do a lot of winning. You lay it all on the line on the mat. There is a lot of celebration of victory, but almost never any rubbing in the loss. The "tough guys," are usually Joe White Belts with six zillion gi patches, a fight tattoo, a goatee and a shaved head, with a license plate border that says "I'd rather be tapping you out or "zhiu-zhitsu." Most of them never make it past blue because they find out it takes too much work and time. Michael Jen, a well respected instructor on the West Coast, estimates that fewer than 1% of the people who start BJJ make it to Purple. If you aren't willing to leave your ego at the door, you'll never make it in this game, because you WILL lose, and sometimes BADLY.

Anyway, not that it's important, but cheers :)

[Ford Prefect]

When did you start posting here again? I pretty much a lurker now because this place cracks me up more than anything else.

Anyhoo, as a former student of the bjj school "not five minutes" from your place, I can assure you that there is not much chest thumping at all. As a matter of fact, I've also trained at the Judo club that you mention and there was a lot more chest thumping there. So much so that I left never to return.

Knowing that I was coming from a BJJ background, I was only allowed to use chokes since they didn't know if I could "apply submissions with control". Then, while grappling that big burly black belt there (the one the went into the service) while I was only 145 lbs, I was handling his offense rather well from my guard just trying to get a feel for his balance and tendencies. After getting his back and having him turtle, we stopped because "he could break me in half" if he wanted to.

I'm quite sure he and a lot of other guys at the club could school me standing up. Heck, that's why I joined that club to begin with; to work on my throws. When it came to ground work, they were quick to mention Judo's superiority blah blah blah. "We will not grapple you full speed on the ground because we will hurt you" "You should tap when you're in that position because he will hurt you" No thanks.

BTW, you still doing shows at the Hong Kong?

[ReverendTim]

Ford, MP, et al...

So since every one who's posted describes a laid-back, informal, results-oriented place, then I guess I'll just chalk the lip-flapping up to the "Joe White Belts" and internet bada$$es.

Ford, I *am* still at the Hong Kong...you should come by. The shows have gotten even more fun. Are you talking about the BJJ club on Mystic Ave.? Or further down on Broadway? And as to the judo club you mention, I do agree. That's why I ended up in Somerville until my li'l fella got born.

In the interests of full disclosure, I should confess that as soon as I get the green light to train again, I'm looking quite seriously at a place that teaches boxing, muay thai, and BJJ/Catch submission grappling (the aforementioned place on Broadway). But I just don't feel like paying my money to hang out with a bunch of Raleks, you know?

--
T.

[Mantis9]

The wise may learn everything from the fool, but the fool learns nothing from the wise.

Simply, be open to learning, correction, and criticism. Regardless of their attitude toward you or others, you can glean knowledge and skills practicing with 'chest thumper.' Losing is their shame, not ours.

One of the most important skills you may acquire among them is patience, patience, and more patience.

Mantis9:D

[GinSueDog]

Hey Ford,
What's up? Where are you training now? I pictured you doing NHB by now.-Ed

[Ford Prefect]

Rev,

I was talking about Boston BJJ in Watertown. It's close to Soldier's Field Road, Rt 16/20, and the Pike. I've trained at the place on Broadway though, and they are a great bunch of guys too. I always had a good time and a good workout whenever I went there. (it's **** cheap too!)

That's cool that you went to Somerville. A few guys I trained BJJ with train there as well and have nothing but good things to say about it. They say the stand-up is very competitive. Also, I'd say it's safe to assume that anywhere you train BJJ/MMA, you won't find a bunch of Ralek's. Most of the guys that train have come from some sort of traditional arts background and are just learning BJJ to fill in the gaps. The chest beaters are a very small minority and are usually not even good at BJJ. The overwhelming majority of the guys are open minded and train because they love it. Not because they think they are bad-arse.

I'll definately be stopping by the Hong Kong now that the weather is warm enough to venture out to the likes of Cambridge. ;) There better still be scorpion bowls there!

[Ford Prefect]

Hey Ed,

I wish! I kept re-injuring my knee, so I'm giving up the arts for a bit. I'm avoiding surgery like the plague. :) I'm just getting back into basketball, mountain biking, skydiving, and snow boarding to pass the time. I still train with friends, but nothing near as intensely as I used to. It's weird. I can do anything with my knee, but the second I start playing the guard, I'm limping for a week.

I took my trip out to Huntington Beach, and I fell in love with Cali. The woman finally agreed to move there in a couple years. I couldn't get enough of surfing. I hit up the HB pier, Newport pier, and San Ofre beach in San Clemente. Too much fun! Too bad the East Coast doesn't believe in waves. :(

How's training going for you?

[Shaolindynasty]

"Brazil has a very mannly culture. They have been doing Vale Tudo there for many years. Any martial art coming from Brazil is going to have a certain higher level of machismo"

Have you ever been there? It's not very macho at all, as a matter of fact there are allot of "alternative" life style followers, if you catch my drift.

In Brazil they don't even call it "brazillian jujitsu" It's just JJ. The whole BBJ thing you guys see here is more of an ingenuis marketing strategy employed by the gracies. Also talking with most Brazillians they really only consider capoeria as a brazil born martial art. At least that's what I found travelling around during my 2 week stay there.

[GinSueDog]

Hey Ford,
I took a break for a little bit, I busted my knee from a heel hook a few months back. My knee felt fine until I went to close guard and then I'd get a sharp pain. I just started training again two weeks ago and so far so good. Hopefully I'll get a chance to roll with you the next time your here. Good luck with your knee, it took me almost three months to heal.-ED

[Merryprankster]

Shaolin, I wouldn't call it a brilliant marketing strategy---I think it's a convenient way to distinguish it from JJJ.

Kinda like the different Tai Chi styles, no?

[Xebsball]

:mad: The people who disagree and doubt my masculinity im gonna kick your ass then **** on your wounds you ****sucking ***gots! I'm a mean uneducated south american and btw i have native blood too so im canibal and ill eat your insides and put your head on a spear in front of my house.

yeah ShaolinD is mostly correct.

[Shaolindynasty]

Nobody I met in brazil distiguished BJJ from JJJ. It was all simply Jujitsu. It's a marketing strategy, it's not an evil thing. The gracies came to america to promote themselves and jujitsu, I'd say they did a good job, nothing wrong with that.


I'd have to say though that Brazil is not as "tough" as us north americans make it out to be. I was talking with a BJJ instructor once about my stay there and how in capoeria we had to run barefoot up and down the street in juiz De Fora which is a city in the mountains so it's a hard place to run. his comment made me laugh he says "Yeah, those Brazillians are a special breed". The way he talked abou them, he it in a way that made it seem like just because they were Brazillian they were tough and mean. Come to find out he has never been to brazil and never even met a brazillian. People like that should talk to my 1st sifu's son, he was born and raised in brazil and is the laziest person I have ever met, he is also very "wussy".

Sorry but the "hot blooded, mean, tough brazillian" is just a myth created for ads in MA magazines to sell us "BJJ".

[Merryprankster]

No no--I meant that it's a good thing in the US to distinguish it from JJJ. So, yeah it's a marketing strategy in the sense that it is a name brand, but for convenience sake, it's nice too :)

[dre]

Originally posted by Xebsball
:mad: The people who disagree and doubt my masculinity im gonna kick your ass then **** on your wounds you ****sucking ***gots! I'm a mean uneducated south american and btw i have native blood too so im canibal and ill eat your insides and put your head on a spear in front of my house.

yeah ShaolinD is mostly correct.

Ditto that. From Santiago, Chile.

[BJJISTHEBEST]

Bjj is the best martial art today it has adapted to todays needs not like kung fu that was developed one thousand years ago and still practice the same way now that is just freakin unbelieveable

[scotty1]

"that is just freakin unbelieveable"

You know in Friends, when Joey and Chandler have a weird roommate (the guy with a goatee from, oh, what's that film? Dazed and Confused, that's the one) and he buys him a fish, and it's a cereal, and he always says "that - that is UNBELIEVABLE!!"

Cracks me up man. :)

[scotty1]

Myosimka, is it cool with you if I use that in my signature?

[chingei]

Originally posted by dre


Why study an art that is bound to lower you're IQ?

hahaaha

Maybe "you're" IQ is low enough as it is!

[Ryu]

Ford Perfect, that really steams me. I'm sorry you had to even bother with "judoka" like that. I have never in my life heard a judoka say "we won't grapple full power on the ground because we'll hurt you." That is SO against the nature of judo that it makes me cringe. :mad: What a bunch of idiots. Probably had no ground attack whatsoever. Judo mcdojo if you ask me.
My school was very competitive and encougaged tournaments a lot. Even if you didn't compete, you rolled with the competitors on a regular basis. Plus many there were crosstraining in BJJ and wrestling. Tools to win the game. :)

Anyway, just ranting. That really puts a bad light to REAL judoka.

Ryu

[LEGEND]

If you don't want to learn BJJ then that's your lost. I'm personally sick of peeps in general when they have the opportunity to learn something/anything and just cause they HERESAY they automatically discount it. If u're gonna do that then I might as well avoid going to WHITE CLUBs cause I'm asian. Or not listen to rap music anymore cause it sends the WRONG message. Pure BS. Be Stupid then.

[Polaris]

I have to say I do agree with Legend.

The people are real nice and respectful where I train. There is
definetly some arrogance in the BJJ community, but it's like
that with anything, and I doubt it's as common as you think.
It's usually the smallest dog who barks the loudest.

[Volcano Admim]

LEGEND, you suck

shut up or leave

[ReverendTim]

Legend,

The only part of your post I even understand is "be stupid then." Honestly, I have no idea what you're trying to say. BJJ may very well be god's gift to martial arts, but until you get a better handle on the language, you may want to hold off throwing the "stupid" label around so liberally.

I don't think it's so stupid to not want to spend 100 bucks a month to train with people you don't like. Though I will say that all the responses about how my perception is off has made me re-think giving it a try.

Of course, your attitude makes me re-re-think it. Irony, eh?

--
Rev. Tim

[Water Dragon]

Rev, it's quite simple actually.

If you want to learn how to dominate a fight if it ends up on the ground, take BJJ

If you don't care about that aspect of the fight game, don't take BJJ

Personally, I don't care much for most Kung Fu guys outside of training. But I wont let that stop me from learning a good art.

[Mutant]

Hey Tim,

The BJJ school on Mystic Ave, thats the one that I mentioned before. The guys that run the school are really nice and mellow. The dude Marcello (sp?) that runs the school is cool, you should stop in and talk to him if youre at all interested. The classes there were very small = good for learning. Seems like a good place with no bad attitude. I may cross train there someday if i can ever find the time.

The bjj place in Watertown seemed to have more of an attitude. I stopped in to watch their vale tudo class a couple of times and found some bubbas with puffed out chests, scores of gi patches and that 'wadda you lookin at' glare. But it was a large class and I'm sure that there were cool people there too, I just didnt get to meet them.

Oh, i just heard yesterday from Eve that Sifu Stan has to close up shop and move the wing chun school again, apperently the artist chik who sublet the Medford space booted him for some reason.

Regards!

[ReverendTim]

Water Dragon,

I think you misread my post. I wasn't asking if BJJ was any good or if I should give it a try. I was asking why it seems to create so many swaggerng a-holes.

--
Rev. Tim

[Shooter]

I was asking why it seems to create so many swaggerng a-holes.


Tim, it's because some people actually believe the following statements to be the truth:


If you want to learn how to dominate a fight if it ends up on the ground, take BJJ

If you don't care about that aspect of the fight game, don't take BJJ

[LEGEND]

Rev Tim...u're a IGNORANT...all the way! U're gonna be ignorant...yes ignorant enuf to post about why u don't want to train BJJ cause of a few guys mouth off about how good it is??? Garbage. When I was in the CMA community I use to hear the same spew from wing chun guys...northern shaolin guys...choy lay fat guys...did it prevent me from training with those guys??? No...so whass stopping you??? You act like BJJ is the DARK SIDE of the FORCE. LOL. This is the same type of SHIET thinking that prevents people from learning anything. I don't want to learn from this guy cause I HEARD he's an a$$...I don't want to eat Vietnamese food cause I HEARD they eat dogs and cats...I don't hang with black peeps cause they're all hood gangsters...I don't date BLONDs cause they're stupid...I don't want to train BJJ cause they're all egomanics...etc...get my point REV??? If you don't then YES...you are STUPID.

People...HEARSAY is all that...it's HEARSAY...who are those spouting that there style is the shiet???!!! WHO??? They are those that are extremely YOUNG( ages 25 and under=RALEK ) who have something to proof! OR they are the owners of the school trying to make $$$=MARKETING=RORION and ROYCE GRACIE. If you believe in HEARSAY well where would this world be??? Full of RACISTs. Hell I'm vietnamese...first time I heard of BJJ I was into wing chun...BJJ look like to guys in a GAY EMBRACE...but I went to a class and trained and have to say it was **** effective! No egos in the class...just a place where u have normal average people working 40 hours a week different occupations( doctors, it profession, college students etc... ). And like all skools you had you're TOP DOGs who were in it like a religion...and most of the rest were in it for fun! Sounds like any normal kung or karate skool eh??? But Rev. Tim will never know cause he believes in HEARSAY. LOL.

[Ryu]

Tim, let me see if I can bring some sanity into a inevitable flame war about to happen. ;) BJJ, is heavily influenced by competition and "winning." I think a lot of the "machismo" factor comes from people who have mistaken notions about traditionalists who never spar or test their material in no rules matches or competitions. It's a misconception from them just as a lot of traditionalists have misconceptions about BJJ.

This is the bottom line of the art. You work hard to win. You "fight" to test your skills. In BJJ, if you want your opponent to be still it's up to you to stop him from moving. It's a very demanding discipline and I think a few more "aggressive" people want admiration for that. However, it's true that misconception goes both ways. I'm rambling. :)

BJJ has very logical and effective skills to deal with a ground fight and/or to take someone who is better than you at punching into a different world where you have the advantage. If he's better than you on the ground, you have the tools to be able to escape the ground and get back to your feet.
I think if you take it you'll enjoy it. However, if the people at this particular school are disrespectful, egotistical, you can always just leave. There's nothing more ugly to me than arrogance. Whether it be from BJJ men, Kung fu men, Religious people, alternative lifestyle people, etc. Arrogance is ugly. Period.

I really do not like egomaniacs either, and I strive to keep my ego in check everyday. But I enjoyed BJJ when I was training at a school. You get to know people, you begin to make some friends, etc. It's a nice atmosphere for the most part.
Just remember that if the school near you is a "dud" in the nice guy department, you can always just roll your eyes and tell them to take a hike. :) Nothing personal, and no harm done.

The trick is to get a good school I think. Usually the people in a BJJ school have NO business being egotystical or disrespectful since ALL of them have been choked out themselves.
A string of butt kickings usually makes you take yourself less seriously. :) It worked for me anyway.

Ryu

[ReverendTim]

Legend,

I get what you're trying to say, I really do. Despite the fact that you keep calling me names for some reason. I am willing to stipulate (pause while Legend looks up "stipulate") that BJJ is a superior ground fighting art practiced only by the biggest bada$$es in the known universe.

That said, it also seems to generate MORE than its fair share of jerks, and I was wonderng why. That's all. Other people have given me good and thoughtful answers, and I'm rethinking my position.

You, on the other hand, are making me think I was right in the first place. I'm not asking my question based on hearsay. I'm asking my question based on my own direct experience of so very many BJJ players who behave, ironically, like you.

So I guess if that makes me ignorant, so be it.

--
Rev. Tim

[Water Dragon]

My bad Rev,
I got the impression that you were saying you would definately take the art, except for the personality types involved.

Shooter,
I love you too Big Boy :eek:

[Archangel]

You really can't see that what you are doing is wrong? You are PRE-JUDGING that BJJ school because of what you see on the internet???? I'm sorry but might I suggest you take an ethics course at your local university before you do anything.

Any school just like people should be judged on what THEY do, and how THEY act; Not on what others "like" them do. Go down to the school and see for yourself, until then you can't really make an informed opinion.

[ReverendTim]

Archangel,

What I'm DOING is asking for more information so as to refine my thinking. At no point did I say that ALL BJJ players are any way in particular. All I did was mention a trend I've noticed and ask if anyone could explain why it exists OR if I had misperceptions, which, if you read really, really close, I've said MORE THAN ONCE that it seems like I do.

So thanks for your "ethics course" idea. Top notch. But I think I've got everything covered, thanks.

--
Rev. Tim

[Legendary_Fist]

I have a slightly different problem with Bjj. My problem with Bjj is the perception that Bjj is a super-effective method of self defense just because it works in the ring. I think its common knowledge that rolling around on the ground trying to get a choke or an arm bar is akin to suicide in a self defense situation. Especially if there's more than one attacker.

I also have a problem with the MMA culture in general, which incorporates whatever style wins at a recent NHB contest. Every time I talk to MMA stylists, they've incorporated a knew style to their curriculum.

These are my personal gripes with Bjj and its red-headed stepchild MMAs. I don't think Bjj is a bad sport, but I think its woefully overhyped.

[Archangel]

This was your original statement:

"However, despite the fact that there's a BJJ school not five minutes from my house, I can't bring myself to consider going there, and here's why: the teeming throngs of chest-thumping "BJJ is the only true way" guys I see on the net. I know that not all BJJ players are like this, and probably not even very many of them, but I also can't help but think that this attitude comes from somewhere within BJJ itself."

Correct me if I'm wrong, you are stating that you have found a trait in BJJ that you don't like. You know that not all and probably not most BJJ schools share this trait but still you cannot bring yourself to get past it and give this local school a chance.

Is this right?

[ReverendTim]

It was right 4 pages of posts ago.

Care to quote all times subsequent to that where I said, "Okay, I guess I was wrong?" Because basically, you're picking out one poorly-chosen sentence out of a dozen posts and trying to paint me like an anti-BJJ bigot when I went out of my way to stress that it was probably my own lack of information leading me to my questions.

I don't think it makes me such a narrow-minded and thoughtless person to go, "Hey, this guy from school A acts like a jerk, and this guy from school B all the way across the country acts like a jerk...is there something being taught at all the schools that turns people into jerks?"

Especially when after people said, "No," I went, "Oh, okay. My mistake."

So you're picking the fight too late to be relevant, brother. Sorry.

--
Rev. Tim

[Archangel]

It's just like saying,

"This guy who was born in Ireland is a jerk"

"I met this other guy from Ireland who was a jerk"

"Is there something about being from Ireland that makes people act that way? Im not going to even gives this Irish guy a chance because of what I've seen"

And then someone tells you

"No I've met this guy and he was really nice"

Tim: "oops my mistake"

When all along you should have given that guy a chance to begin with.

[LEGEND]

I have to apologize for Rev. Tim. I just found out my ex gf...u guys know...the one from 2 years ago...u know the love of my life...yeah the one who cheated on me 2 years ago and got preg...aborted with another man...JERRY SPRINGER??? Well...she contacted me in JAN via EMAIL...and wanted me to go up to Canada to visit her...I couldn't due to finance and well we kept in touch...about 3 days ago I found out she might be MARRIED. "F" biatch!!! Can u say I might have been played again??? Can u say I would like to CUT this girl...bury her alive...and resurrect her and do it again??? YES YOU CAN!!! So unfortunately I'm drunk for the last 5 days and I'm a ***** right now...so apology to REV. TIM. Maybe u can throw a prayer for me to forget this **** girl and have her burn in hell!!!

BJJ is a tool...just like wing chun is a tool...that's it...other than increasing your ground fighting knowledge and adding to your street fighting arsenal...it is just like any other Martial Art. PEACE.

And there should be a LAW for INFIDELITY!!! KILL KILL KILL.

[ReverendTim]

Legend,

No harm, no foul, brother. Just don't go cutting anybody. At LEAST use your BJJ on her! ;)

Archangel,

Your analogy is totally inaccurate. First off, everyone knows that the Irish are all jerks.* Secondly, you're totally hung up on the "giving the BJJ school a chance" thing. I really wasn't planning on going there any time soon anyway, though now that I've talked to people here about it, I'm actually a little more inclined to go see what it's all about. I'm really not as closed minded as you seem to think I am. I didn't base my question on 2 people. I based it on the *behavior* of dozens and dozens of people whose braggadocio I've read and read and read online.

It's not unheard of for a particular martial arts school or series of schools to have institutionalized "our way is the only way and we must destroy all others." I ran into that mindset at a lot of places when I lived in Colorado Springs...it was passed from the original instructor to the next franchise owner and so on. And frankly, I don't like it. Not on principle, and not as someplace where I pay my hard-earned money and spend my rapidly-dwindling free time. So I thought I would ask if it was in fact institutionalized in the BJJ community. I got a resounding "no," and amended my thinking. If that fails some sort of ethical litmus test of yours, then I guess I can live with that. I would say that your beef is with the people who don't take the time to ask the question.

The irony is that just to prove you wrong, I'll probably start going to this school, where my total retardation when it comes to grappling will probably destroy their reputation inside 6 months and they'll wish you'd just let me think they're all a-holes. ;)

--
Rev. Tim

*That's Rev. Tim MCINTIRE, so don't take my Irish joke to heart.

[LEGEND]

U think BJJ skills are bad...try this org. WILLIAM CHEUNG's wing chun group. Join anyone of their skools and tell me what you think...u will meet extremely...brain washed students talk about WILLIAM CHEUNG as the only heir to WING CHUN! Hell there was an article supposely how he fought off 40( yes 40 ) ARMED men!!! I was training under one of his sifus...he was a GREAT martial artist...but he too spouted how WILLIAM CHUN wing chun style was the greatest etc...overall I learn alot about the fighting style...but discarded the PROPAGANDA CRAP!

Rev. Tim...u'll find many of these BJJ skools incorporating a muy thai or some sort of boxing program! It's very difficult to make money without a cardio non contact program for kids and women. And ever try RED BULL and VODKA??? Heard it suppose to give u a heartattack...hehehe...watching ESPN2 about Mike Tyson...hey...I had a ROBIN GIVENs too...kill kill kill kill

[Archangel]

LOL, I only used the Irish cause I saw you were from Boston.

I just have to ask who these arrogant braggadocious people are that you've been talking to. On this forum, i've never seen any of the REAL MMA practioners with this attitude.

Oh ya, don't really take anything I say on this forum too seriously. I can come off as a bit harsh sometimes, this forum is full of nice guys and being a pr!ick can stirs things up when it gets boring.

Good Luck!!

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Legendary_Fist
I have a slightly different problem with Bjj. My problem with Bjj is the perception that Bjj is a super-effective method of self defense just because it works in the ring. I think its common knowledge that rolling around on the ground trying to get a choke or an arm bar is akin to suicide in a self defense situation. Especially if there's more than one attacker.

Your problem is flawed. It may have held true in 1996, but not today.

1. Most people, especially MA, no longer have that perception

2. You really think that they will go looking for an armbar or choke. In reality, anyone with sense is going to use BJJ to get them OFF of the ground and hopefully get away. If you have the opportunity to break an arm in the process, then break it if you deem it necessary and feel you have the time. Other than that, you get up and get away.

3.The fact that it works in the ring will add to effectiveness in the street. We'll relate this in CMA terms - a san shou or shuai chiao player. They are used to throwing techs with power against resisting opponents, and become quite proficient at it. Do you think that because they are training in a sport form of their art that it's not street effective? c'mon now...

I also have a problem with the MMA culture in general, which incorporates whatever style wins at a recent NHB contest. Every time I talk to MMA stylists, they've incorporated a knew style to their curriculum.

And the problem with this is....? There is nothing wrong with making yourself well rounded. If I see that BJJ is d.amn good on the ground, then why not train BJJ? almost every CMA I know sucks royally when it comes to grappling, other than shuai chiao players, and even they are out of their element when they hit the ground. If I train Judo, why not train in mantis, muay thai or any other primarily stand up style so that I can add more striking to my repertoire? I'm sure you know many CMA that train in both an internal and external style - possibly even multiple of each - is that not the same?

These are my personal gripes with Bjj and its red-headed stepchild MMAs. I don't think Bjj is a bad sport, but I think its woefully overhyped.

It's overhyped because it's new and is constantly in the public eye - no different than the kung fu craze of the 70s or the ninja craze of the 80s. Also, MMA is one of the few venues that allow you to step into the ring and test yourself. No, it's not a real fight, but it's the closest thing to it that's currently available.

[Ryu]

Legend, sorry to hear about that. :( I know it's cliche, but forget her. Don't ever give her he satisfaction of seeing or talking to you again. Anyway, hope things work out.


Rev. Tim
I'd say my advice is to go check it out. You have nothing to lose. :) If they're ugly people, tell them to stick it and move on. If not (and they probably won't be) then you've got some good training ahead of you.

Ryu

[Legendary_Fist]

SevenStar-

I disagree, I've run across many practioners who still claim that Bjj is all you need in a self defense situation, and that 90% of fights go to the ground, or whatever such nonsense. So its certainly not a thing of the past.

As for MMAs, yes we in the CMAs do practice several styles. However, the reasoning behind the two is very different. I have issues with people who see a Muay Thai/Bjj stylist win a NHB championship, then go out and take Muay Thai and Bjj. Then, in the next NHB, a Vale Tudo man wins, so these same people also take up Vale Tudo. I see something seriously wrong with that.

Its almost like a group of fairweather fans.

[Ryu]

Vale Tudo basically IS Muay Thai and BJJ....

[Archangel]

"I disagree, I've run across many practioners who still claim that Bjj is all you need in a self defense situation, and that 90% of fights go to the ground, or whatever such nonsense. So its certainly not a thing of the past."

I've run into alot of TMA practioners that still claim that they can never be taken down, one hit one kill, chi blast, kung fu is flawless. Does that mean they speak for the majority of TMA practioners, h e l l no. When you get 2 extremes like that the truth is usually found somewhere in the middle.

[chingei]

Originally posted by Legendary_Fist
[I think its common knowledge that rolling around on the ground trying to get a choke or an arm bar is akin to suicide in a self defense situation. Especially if there's more than one attacker.

COLOR]

this 'stand up' mantra is really getting old...

[Le nOObi]

Originally posted by SevenStar
almost every CMA I know sucks royally when it comes to grappling, other than shuai chiao players, and even they are out of their element when they hit the ground.


I think thats a gigantic exageration! Alot of CMA have very good stand up grappling skills.

[ReverendTim]

Originally posted by Archangel
When you get 2 extremes like that the truth is usually found somewhere in the middle.

A-freaking-men to that.

--
Rev. Tim

[NorthernMantis]

Legend-

Really sorry to hear that man. I know how it's like to be played by a girl. Don't waste your time on her. If you want to mess with her, jut ignore her,. Girls hate that trustt me. Act like you don't even care. Like I told you (2 years ago?) use this time to channel your anger to elevate your training. Take care man

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Le nOObi


I think thats a gigantic exageration! Alot of CMA have very good stand up grappling skills.

you're right - stand up. I don't disagree with that. I was referring to ground grappling.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Legendary_Fist
SevenStar-

I disagree, I've run across many practioners who still claim that Bjj is all you need in a self defense situation, and that 90% of fights go to the ground, or whatever such nonsense. So its certainly not a thing of the past.

As for MMAs, yes we in the CMAs do practice several styles. However, the reasoning behind the two is very different. I have issues with people who see a Muay Thai/Bjj stylist win a NHB championship, then go out and take Muay Thai and Bjj. Then, in the next NHB, a Vale Tudo man wins, so these same people also take up Vale Tudo. I see something seriously wrong with that.

Its almost like a group of fairweather fans.


no.... you're generalizing. Alot of the ones I know do it to supplement their training. muay thai lacks in grappling. Judo has awesome throws and good pinning and conrtol techs. BJJ has excellent submissions. Consequently, the three complement eachother.

Of course you are gonna run into practitioners that still agree that bjj is the be all end all - I know CMA that think the same. I get so tired of "If he tries to double leg me, I'll do this" or "I'll kick him in the nuts or punch him in the throat." I also know several that think that BJJ is a simple are that would only take months to master. There will always be those that are horribly misinformed.

[LEGEND]

Ryu...thanks man.

Northern yeah bro! Last week I've seen to be looking for a fight...my training is getting more intense though since I'm real aggressive right now. Sucks to feel this way though...plus my 28th BD was on JUNE 3rd...so she got me good around dat time...ahhhhhh WOMEN. THE TRUE ENEMY OF MEN.

[Legendary_Fist]

Originally posted by Archangel
"I disagree, I've run across many practioners who still claim that Bjj is all you need in a self defense situation, and that 90% of fights go to the ground, or whatever such nonsense. So its certainly not a thing of the past."

I've run into alot of TMA practioners that still claim that they can never be taken down, one hit one kill, chi blast, kung fu is flawless. Does that mean they speak for the majority of TMA practioners, h e l l no. When you get 2 extremes like that the truth is usually found somewhere in the middle.

However the "90% fights go to the ground" belief is the main selling point of the Bjj. I hear it all the time from Bjj exponents. When you say TMA you're talking about a huge group of styles and arts that stretch over several countries.

Bjj is just one style, and I will say that the majority still believe in that 90% nonsense.

[Ryu]

None of the BJJ guys here do. But a good amount of real fighting does indeed include the ground. That's just fact.

[Archangel]

Who on earth are you talking to. All of the MMA proponents on this forum don't believe that, well except for Ralek but I know he's not serious. I haven't heard this attitude for a long time and I absolutely know that it's not the way the majority feels. Most MMA practioners do feel that SOME fights go to the ground, which is why we train ground grappling.

[Legendary_Fist]

Originally posted by Ryu
None of the BJJ guys here do. But a good amount of real fighting does indeed include the ground. That's just fact.



Its funny that you state that no one you know says 90% of fights go to the ground, yet you then turn around and say that that flawed belief is true.

Interesting.

[Legendary_Fist]

Originally posted by Archangel
Who on earth are you talking to. All of the MMA proponents on this forum don't believe that, well except for Ralek but I know he's not serious. I haven't heard this attitude for a long time and I absolutely know that it's not the way the majority feels. Most MMA practioners do feel that SOME fights go to the ground, which is why we train ground grappling.

I didn't say MMA practicioners, I said Bjj exponents.

MMA is a seperate issue, and I believe that its goals are inherently flawed.

But like I said, that's a seperate issue.

[Dark Knight]

"MMA is a seperate issue, and I believe that its goals are inherently flawed. "

Other than the garage guy who buys vidoes to learn and says he is MMA with no real base or ability. Why do you say this? Look at how many effective fighters in MMA we have seen. They train hard on the different skills to find one common goal, work what is effective.

Why is thier goal flawed?

[Archangel]

Ok which BJJ exponents are you talking to. The only ones I can think of is the Torrance camp pre 1998; and recently they have shown willingness to learn standup and wrestling. If you look at all of the BJJ teams out there right now like Renzo and Carlson they are definately training other ranges not just the ground.

[LEGEND]

MMA goal is to win MMA competition...self defense is so basic...it's not really required to entail intense details. True real fighting is so emotional based it's primal. Scenarios design by Tony Blauer and Sammy Franco is more into the self defense realm.

[Legendary_Fist]

Originally posted by Dark Knight
"MMA is a seperate issue, and I believe that its goals are inherently flawed. "

Other than the garage guy who buys vidoes to learn and says he is MMA with no real base or ability. Why do you say this? Look at how many effective fighters in MMA we have seen. They train hard on the different skills to find one common goal, work what is effective.

Why is thier goal flawed?

Effective fighters in the ring, whom are trained for such competitions several months out of the year. My problem is people who actually do mixed MAs believing that if they do what these guys do, they'll be effective fighters on the streets, or in a "real" situation. I think that's flawed.

1.Because the fighters of NHB tournaments more than likely won't be the victims of an attack, since they're big, muscular individuals who the bad guys avoid anyway.

2.Because fights like the NHB are controlled enviornments with rules, and against an equally skilled opponent who also knows these rules. Street fighting is nothing like that.

I also have issue with people who do other MAs to fill "holes" in their MA practice. Such as learning Muay Thai striking because their Judo practice lacks that form of training. If they looked deeper in their art, they'd find that there is striking within Judo, so learning Muay Thai isn't really necessary.

I often times wonder if dojos, kwoons, or schools that offer 5 to 6 different methods of MA, are legitimate schools to learn from. I once saw a school that offered Bjj, Muay Thai, Jeet Kun Do, Karate, Pankraton(sp?), and something else, all combined. I have serious doubts that the students in that school were learning anything more than glorified Kickboxing and ground fighting.

If you study a true Martial art, you should find what you're looking for no matter what the situation, you simply have to dig deeper, or practice harder to find it.

If you're practicing a complete art that is.

If you aren't, well there you go.

[Dark Knight]

"MMA goal is to win MMA competition...self defense is so basic...it's not really required to entail intense details. True real fighting is so emotional based it's primal. Scenarios design by Tony Blauer and Sammy Franco is more into the self defense realm."

Compare MMA to Kung Fu styles, or Karate styles or Ju-Jitsu. They all claim to teach self defense but not like tony or Peyton and many others.

Based on your comparison to tonys methods, would you say that the vast majority of "Self Defense" Schools are flawed?

MMA people train in more of a reality than most martial arts schools (I have been in many that do train with reality methods) If you are to say that MMA is flawed because they do not do scenario training like Tony or Peyton then you need to include a huge amount of martial arts schools in that comment.

[Dark Knight]

My problem is people who actually do mixed MAs believing that if they do what these guys do, they'll be effective fighters on the streets, or in a "real" situation. I think that's flawed.

This is true in any style. Even here you hear about legends that cannot be proven or "my style is superior because.... " MMA is not the only onewith thi problem, I have heard it for years from all styles, the ninjas who believe they study the deadliest, the TKD who belive all martial arts started from TKD, long before MMA people had the same belief about these deadly martial artist and if you studied it you would have to register your hands.

[Dark Knight]

My problem with MMA is the amount of people who float from style to style, buy a bunch of videos then claim to be in MMA when they are not in anything at all with little experience.

These were the types that in the 70's and 80's said that said they were into JKD because it was not one style but a little from different styles.

Both are untrained losers who never stayed in one style long enough to learn anything well enough, but claim to have this great broad knowledge. They are not MMA or JKD.

MMA may be a couple different styles, but those who use it effectivly learn the different aspects proficiently.

[chingei]

Originally posted by Legendary_Fist


If you study a true Martial art, you should find what you're looking for no matter what the situation, you simply have to dig deeper, or practice harder to find it.

color]

so, name a "true" martial art. and name an "untrue" martial art.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Legendary_Fist


Effective fighters in the ring, whom are trained for such competitions several months out of the year. My problem is people who actually do mixed MAs believing that if they do what these guys do, they'll be effective fighters on the streets, or in a "real" situation. I think that's flawed.

1.Because the fighters of NHB tournaments more than likely won't be the victims of an attack, since they're big, muscular individuals who the bad guys avoid anyway.

2.Because fights like the NHB are controlled enviornments with rules, and against an equally skilled opponent who also knows these rules. Street fighting is nothing like that.

I also have issue with people who do other MAs to fill "holes" in their MA practice. Such as learning Muay Thai striking because their Judo practice lacks that form of training. If they looked deeper in their art, they'd find that there is striking within Judo, so learning Muay Thai isn't really necessary.

I often times wonder if dojos, kwoons, or schools that offer 5 to 6 different methods of MA, are legitimate schools to learn from. I once saw a school that offered Bjj, Muay Thai, Jeet Kun Do, Karate, Pankraton(sp?), and something else, all combined. I have serious doubts that the students in that school were learning anything more than glorified Kickboxing and ground fighting.

If you study a true Martial art, you should find what you're looking for no matter what the situation, you simply have to dig deeper, or practice harder to find it.

If you're practicing a complete art that is.

If you aren't, well there you go.

1. Not all of them are big. Also, size won't matter when weapons and/or multiple attackers are involved

2. Controlled or not, they are still full power techs, not half power, "what if" techs like eye gouges and throat strikes. The contact proponent alone will aid greatly in a self defense situation. Sure, Judo does have strikes, but if you want to look at it from a sport standpoint, they are not as useful, other than in judo tournies. From a self defense standpoint, you won't learn them soon enough or get enough practice with them to be able to effectively use them in a self defense situation. CMA ground grappling - same thing... from a sportive standpoint, it's inferior to BJJ and judo.

[Legendary_Fist]

Originally posted by Dark Knight


This is true in any style. Even here you hear about legends that cannot be proven or "my style is superior because.... " MMA is not the only onewith thi problem, I have heard it for years from all styles, the ninjas who believe they study the deadliest, the TKD who belive all martial arts started from TKD, long before MMA people had the same belief about these deadly martial artist and if you studied it you would have to register your hands.

Certainly, and I apologize if my wording seemed to say that only MMA practicioners engage in this type of behavior. Certainly, TMA practicioners do it as well. You aren't the sum total of all the masters who may have preformed your art in the past. Basically, the art/style that you practice is only as good as you are.

However, the "jack of all trades" mentality is something I have definite problem with.

[Polaris]

Originally posted by Legendary_Fist



2.Because fights like the NHB are controlled enviornments with rules, and against an equally skilled opponent who also knows these rules. Street fighting is nothing like that.


Here we go with this again. Legendary_Fist, would I be correct
to assume by that statement that you wonder the streets
getting into fights on a regular basis? Sparring in the Kwoon
certaintly isn't the same as fighting on the streets either.

[Legendary_Fist]

Originally posted by SevenStar


1. Not all of them are big. Also, size won't matter when weapons and/or multiple attackers are involved

I have yet to see a lanky NHB competitor. All the ones I've seen were muscular individuals who could handle their own in many confrontations. These guys are usually avoided by muggers and other types. Afterall, predators tend to only go after weak prey. Guys like Mark Coleman look anything but weak.


2. Controlled or not, they are still full power techs, not half power, "what if" techs like eye gouges and throat strikes. The contact proponent alone will aid greatly in a self defense situation. Sure, Judo does have strikes, but if you want to look at it from a sport standpoint, they are not as useful, other than in judo tournies. From a self defense standpoint, you won't learn them soon enough or get enough practice with them to be able to effectively use them in a self defense situation. CMA ground grappling - same thing... from a sportive standpoint, it's inferior to BJJ and judo.

That's not what I meant when I said "controlled enviornment. Basically in a NHB you're rolling around a canvas free of obstacles and other harmful substances. That's not the case in the street. Also in a NHB, you're going for a submission hold (armbar, choke), that's something else that can be very dangerous in a self defense situation. I think its well established that the ground is the last place you want to be in a self defense encounter. In a NHB, fighting on the ground is often the desired place to be.

That's two way different realities there.

Don't get me wrong, I think groundfighting is really good to know. Especially for women, since rapists and other sexual deviants will try to take a woman to the ground to better control her.

However, saying that street fighting is like NHB fighting is a huge error, and many MMA people actually believe that falsehood.

As for whether or not Judo's atemi-waza is effective, that depends on the instructor, and the student's willingness to study Judo beyond its "sportive aspects".

[Legendary_Fist]

Originally posted by Polaris


Here we go with this again. Legendary_Fist, would I be correct
to assume by that statement that you wonder the streets
getting into fights on a regular basis? Sparring in the Kwoon
certaintly isn't the same as fighting on the streets either.

I grew up in a rough area Polaris, so I've been in, and witnessed many street fights. None of which looks anything like a NHB tournament.

Perhaps the most gruesome involved my cousin getting sliced up by a gang. The gang used knives and broken bottles to do the cutting. Now, I'd have liked to see someone try to take these boys (and girls) to the ground. They had knives, and there was glass all over the pavement.

Do I wander the streets looking for fights? No, because I don't have a deathwish.

Now please, tell me where I stated that street fighting looks anything like what happens in a kwoon or a dojo.

[LEGEND]

Dark Knight...well actually any style can defend itself effectively on a ONE ON ONE scenario. I believe the scenario training done by Tony and Sammy simply increases the KNOWLEDGE of one hoping to SURVIVE a streetfight...not WIN ONE. Since it is a given fact that most real fights are multiple attacker based. But ONE ON ONE which is rare to say the least any style can defend well...whether it's pure boxing...pure bjj...or MMA. The problem is that ONE ON ONE scenarios are so rare! It's also a given fact that MMA trains for the sport of MMAs. While other styles well...they train for their full contacts and point fighting or form fighting tourneys. Ultimately the majority of skools are businesses. It is the INDIVIDUAL responsibility to find the TRUTH about REAL FIGHTING through scenario training, and other sources.

[SevenStar]

I agree with you on not wanting to be on the ground in a streetfight. However, I'm NOT gonna be on the ground trying to armbar somebody - the intent as I stated earlier in this thread is to get up and get away. I want to be on the ground as little as possibe and knowing how to fight on the ground aids greatly in this.

[MA fanatic]

I have trained in several styles, and must say, that I have found that same attitude in all martial arts schools. I have seen Kung Fu guys thinking that because their art can be traced back to some ancient master, they are tough guys. I have seen Kick Boxers and other full contact martial arts practitioners say that because they train full contact, they are the best. The list goes on and on. However, if you look beyond the teenagers practicing martial arts, you'll see that in all schools, we have completely normal, none macho people. I have trained, and continue to train at the Gracie JJ school, and have never seen macho attitude on anyone older than 17. Most are regular professional individuals who just want to learn self defense and/or sport bjj. There are a few pro fighters who train for full contact competition, but they come across as less macho than all other students.
MA fanatic

[Ryu]

No I didn't. I just said a good amount of fighting includes the ground. The 90% stuff of course is flawed. Most fights end on the first strike anyway. It's usually a sucker punch followed by a flury of heavy blows. There's a lot of fights that do go to the ground at one point or another. Not 90%, but a fair amount do. Like I said before that's just fact. I can also say a fair amount are ended with strikes on the feet. Again it's fact. *shrug*

Ryu

[Ryu]

Also if you think MMA people roll on the ground looking for submission you haven't watched MMA. A good ground and pound game can knock someone out in less then 10 seconds. It's funny when people say MMA or "NHB" is simply looking for submissions. :)

Ryu

[chingei]

Originally posted by LEGEND
it is a given fact that most real fights are multiple attacker based. But ONE ON ONE which is rare to say the least .... The problem is that ONE ON ONE scenarios are so rare!

b.s.


how many hours did they force you to go without sleep before you could repeat that line correctly?

[chingei]

Originally posted by SevenStar
[B]I agree with you on not wanting to be on the ground in a streetfight. However, I'm NOT gonna be on the ground trying to armbar somebody - ]


So, if you have the ability and the opportunity to break your opponent's arm, you won't take it? riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

[les paul]

After reading this thread I thought I'd chime in:)

First, you can't judge a MA style like jujitsu because of some cyber jujitsu wannbe novices that post here. Most of them are probabbly still in high school goofing off on the net. After watching a few UFC videos they decided to screw with people. Ralek is a fine example of this. For all you and I know the people who support him and his uninformed notions of kung fu and martial arts in general could be his neibhorhood friends. They are probably all networking from a series of computers from there local high school. So don't judge your local jujitsu school on what goes on here. They are probably a bunch of fine people.

However, there are some deficiant schools out there. I once trained at a karate dojo that trained you through the use "pain!" That judo school described in an earlier post sounds like another example of this! (this is a subject for another post!)

Jujistu is like any other martial art. It can lacks in some areas too.

The main thing is to do something you love and have fun with.

Keep in mind

Most of these people posting on the net are not your typical jujistuka. They sound like your typical teenager trying to get attention from anyone they can.

[Dark Knight]

It's also a given fact that MMA trains for the sport of MMAs. While other styles well...they train for their full contacts and point fighting or form fighting tourneys


This is why combat sports styles do better in the street than the typical Kung fu, karate... do not. The guy in MMA, MT, Kick boxing, Judo BJJ... train like they fight. Most Martial arts schools do not train with reality in mind, they pratice forms and techniques that would be probobly effective, but do not train with them in a manner that makes it effective.

Most schools are businesses, and they are run to make money. The amount of contact is limited so that the instructor does not drive out students.

Effective fighting comes from effective training. For the majority of people what they are doing is for their own enjoyment and may be in the arts for 15 years and never be in a fight or fight full contact in training. For them that may be fine, but when it come s down to who will do better in a fight, I will put my mony on someone who has gotten in the ring and tested his skills at full contact.

[Dark Knight]

it is a given fact that most real fights are multiple attacker based. But ONE ON ONE which is rare to say the least .... The problem is that ONE ON ONE scenarios are so rare!


I live in a casino town, alcohol and drugs are a big problem, I have seen many fights and until this year with the bike gangs, only a few were two against one, most were one on one.

[Dark Knight]

Don't get me wrong, I think groundfighting is really good to know. Especially for women, since rapists and other sexual deviants will try to take a woman to the ground to better control her. However, saying that street fighting is like NHB fighting is a huge error, and many MMA people actually believe that falsehood.

MMA fighters combine MT or Kickboxing with submission fighting. Dont think what is most common on UFC is all they know. MMA fighters are excellent stand up fighters. Mo Smith Won his firts couple UFC's before he learned submissions.

A MMA fighter in the street will hit some one harder than the typical MArtial arts guy because he train full contact on a bag and trains full contact in the ring to prepare himself.

The two primary skills a MMA fighter practices is MT and submission fighting. Not a little of everything.

As far as ground fighting for women, its not a place for the week, the stanima and strength needed is very high. I can stand up fight many times longer than grapple.

[Le nOObi]

I think that the idea the most real fights are multiple attacker are a myth. I think its probably around 50/50. I think that about 1/2 of all fights are the petty 1 vs 1 fights that occur between one person who spills his drink on someone else and the person who the drink got spilled on. I think the other 1/2 are pre-planned attacks that often involve multiple opponents.

[LEGEND]

Maybe I'm stereotyping since I only hang majority with asians...there's a tendency to fight in packs with asians. The mentality with asians is you jump one of us...or you fight one of us...u fight all of us. So I haven't seen a one on one in a longggggg time.

[Ryu]

Maybe it's a Viet thing :D
LOL just kidding. ;)

I've seen both kinds of mentalities from different Asian friends (i.e. you fight one of us you fight all of us, and group fighting is for cowards..) I remember when one of my Japanese friends was thinking he was going to get into a fight, and I offered to just beat the guy up for him! :D (yeah I was serious...) Other Japanese told me "you have to let him handle it on his own, because he'll look really bad if you do that.)
I understood I guess. But I get what you're saying too LEGEND (even though I'm not Asian, but probably a lot of people feel the same way) If you hurt a friend, be prepared to fight the other friend. ;)

Ryu

[chingei]

Originally posted by LEGEND
Maybe I'm stereotyping since I only hang majority with asians...there's a tendency to fight in packs with asians. The mentality with asians is you jump one of us...or you fight one of us...u fight all of us. So I haven't seen a one on one in a longggggg time.


nice racist generalization

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by chingei



So, if you have the ability and the opportunity to break your opponent's arm, you won't take it? riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

Maybe not - it depends. If I am on the ground in a multiple attacker situation, screw breaking his arm - I just wanna get up and get away. If the attacker had a weapon in his hand, or I thought that I wouldn't be able to easily get away, sure, I'd break the arm. Other than that, I'd prefer GnP. A few good shots that would stun him long enough for me to get up and get away.

Also, what was the cause of the altercation? some drunk on the street? nah, no need to break anything unless he's putting up a he11 of a fight. As a good MA, you possess the ability the judge the severity of the situation and act accordingly.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by chingei



nice racist generalization

He's stating how it is with him (he's asian) and the asians he hangs with - just a generalization. From his experience in his own culture, fights occur in multiple attacker situations.

[Nichiren]

Amen to MerryPranksters replies!!!!

[chingei]

Originally posted by SevenStar


Maybe not - it depends. If I am on the ground in a multiple attacker situation, screw breaking his arm - I just wanna get up and get away.

if you are surrounded by people who want to do you harm, you are screwed if you are on the ground, standing up, sitting in a chair, perched on a plum-blossom pole, or doing a headstand

[chingei]

Originally posted by SevenStar


He's stating how it is with him (he's asian) and the asians he hangs with - just a generalization. From his experience in his own culture, fights occur in multiple attacker situations.

I hate math. all my white friends hate math. that's just how it is with white folks--we all hate math.

[Merryprankster]

Dark Knight--

I disagree with that assertion--I am generally weaker than my opponents because a lot of BJJ guys are jacked for some reason, and seem to do okay.

My girlfriend schools new guys that come in to roll, provided the weight difference is not too great (the 300 lbs guy we have, for instance)

We have a girl who is about 120 soaking wet, who out slicks people constantly.

I will say that if you are substantially weaker and smaller then you need to be quite a bit better however--two or three months of consistent training generally evens the score a LOT.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by chingei


if you are surrounded by people who want to do you harm, you are screwed if you are on the ground, standing up, sitting in a chair, perched on a plum-blossom pole, or doing a headstand

You're doggone right you are. But I'm not gonna lay down and say "g'head, kick my arse" either. I'm trying to get up and get away. Going for an armabar would take too much time , leaving on the ground to get stomped longer, plus depending on how many people there were, I could get kicked in the head and knocked out before I had the chance to do it. That's why I'd be more focused on getting away.


And BTW, I knew that all white people hate math. All asians love math, and all bleack people look alike...it's common knowledge.

[Ryu]

All ASIANS look alike. Black people like chicken. :D

;)

Ryu

[Dark Knight]

I will say that if you are substantially weaker and smaller then you need to be quite a bit better however--two or three months of consistent training generally evens the score a LOT.

But two or three months of training will give you the strength and stanima needed.


We have a girl who is about 120 soaking wet, who out slicks people constantly.

Experience and skill will overcome.

My point was that ground fighting skills are not something easy to pick up and be efficient with quickly. You do need to be better to overcome a bigger fighter. If a woman is looking to keep from getting raped she should first develope the skills to get away.

My post was in response to someone saying that ground fighting skills are better for women to keep from getting raped .

[Merryprankster]

Fair enough :) Can't argue with any of that.

[BJJISTHEBEST]

tHE REASON WHY bjj ERS ARE SO CONFIDENT IS BECAUSE THEY KNOW THAT THere art is superior and im sure if you tried it you will feel the same way

[Stacey]

oh yeah, well I have faught 3 purple belts and each time, I hit them till they were faint, then took THEM to the ground and raped them. I have video footage, but in order to see it, you must send me 7 martial arts videotapes of my old master and 4 gracie technique tapes.

[BJJISTHEBEST]

Im a purple belt and if you took me to the gorund i will fukin arm bar you and not let go even if you fukin tapped

[Brad Souders]

Where did u buy your purple belt at. Let me guess you study the Gracie Advanced tapes. LOL. Hell name me six different guards.

[Stacey]

well when you go for that cross body arm lock, I'll break your spine so you can't arch your back, then I'll penetrate you like a ***** and thrust till I"m done.

Thats Pancrase, the greek art of "all powers" I'm a traditionalist Pancrace technition. So oil up before the fight.

[Brad Souders]

isn't pancrase hybrid wrestling from Japan, and pankration the Greek stlye?

[chingei]

Originally posted by BJJISTHEBEST
Im a purple belt and if you took me to the gorund i will fukin arm bar you and not let go even if you fukin tapped

you type well for a 12 year old.

[Stacey]

uh..yeah....thats what I meant. Pancration.

[Brad Souders]

LMAO!!!

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Ryu
All ASIANS look alike. Black people like chicken. :D

;)

Ryu

Yes, Black people do like chicken. and bisuits. can't forget those. Russians like vodka.


Actually, I can tell asians apart pretty good. Nationalities I mean. One day one an old job of mine, someone brought some shrimp crackers, and I was asking someone in the break room if he knew what kind of crackers they were (at the time I didn't know they were shrimp) he was like, "I'm really not sure, I'm not Japanese" I said, "I know, you're vietnamese" he was like :eek: "how'd you know?" Somewhere on the net, there's a test you can take to see how well you can tell apart the different nationalities...I did better on it than some asians I know.

here it is: http://www.alllooksame.com/default.asp

[Shadow Dragon]

I am normally doing pretty well with most Asians races.

Japanese and Koreans still give me a headache at times. Must be their shared mongolian ancestry.

Seeya.

[Stacey]

Prejudice or not, black people of south eastern American decent do like chicken, cool-aid, collard greens and watermellon. There is just no way around it. I too like these things. I guess that means that I'm black. I mean chinese people like rice for every meal. So I must not be chinese.


Well I learned on the discovery channel that from the human genome project, they traced everyone to one black woman in Africa.


In that case, peace and love, I'm up and out to get my grub on.


Oh, not to get off topic.

To the newest BJJ troll/mental retard: I really am a Pancration expert and my oil boy-wife-slave will oil you up before the fight, so when I stab you, it wont hurt as bad.

[scotty1]

Stacey, not being funny but you were born in 1983, when did you start training to be a Pankration expert?

[scotty1]

ttt for Stacey's answer.

[scotty1]

ttt for Stacey!!

[LEGEND]

LOL...CHINGI is looking for a fight...too bad he's too far away...gosh...

Remember the real reasons why most asian fights in pack...too small to go one of one with the whites and blacks...hahaha!

[Budokan]

Title Thread: "My One and Only Problem with BJJ"

Wow. You only have one....? You're doing better than me.

Anyway, in case you haven't heard the news, BJJ is on the way out. Don't believe me? Take a look at Black Belt Magazine nowadays, the best bell-weather I know that stays on top of commercial trends and fads. The ads and articles for BJJ have dropped off tremendously since just about a couple of years ago. The new trend seems to be "reality-based training", perhaps a residue of the 9-11 attack. Dunno.

Now, I'm not saying this is an indication of the *worth* of BJJ, anymore than the other stylistic bandwagons BBM jumped on: judo, karate, kung fu, ninjas, etc. I'm sure as long as there are young men intersted in mounting other young men, BJJ will have a home among disaffected internet warriors.;)