Wing chun grappling

[SevenStar]

What in tarnation is this? the closest I've been able to find so far are some references to something new called tsun jo® wing chun

[diego]

no idea whats a tarnation:)

[rubthebuddha]

it's a country that's rather full of smokers.

[Shadow Dragon]

tar·na·tion Pronunciation Key (tär-nshn) New England & Southern U.S.
n.

The act of ****ing or the condition of being ****ed.

interj.

Used to express anger or annoyance.

[tarn(al) + (****)ation.]
Regional Note: The noun and interjection tarnation illustrate suffixation, the addition of a suffix to a word. Tarnation and darnation (the latter probably having come first) are both euphemistic forms of ****ation. Tarnation seems to have been influenced by tarnal, another mild oath derived from (e)ternal! The Oxford English Dictionary cites late-18th-century examples of tarnation from New England, indicating that it has been part of American speech since colonial days.

Peace.

P.S.: **** = D A M N

P.P.S.: I thought you guys were the english speakers here, not us uninformed non-native Guys.

[diego]

i'm from canada and i know a ton of natives
2 drunk chicks :mad: HAH:) ... walks out to the parking lot


uno jon ****er he lived in 1517 and thats where the term **** came from, i wonder what his mum did?, You think this relates jon ****er and his mumz and tarnation the act of getting ****ed ?
i scene it like zenith 60inch in a book titled something THE ORIGIN OF SWEARWORD at thee local ly-brare-ee!.

[fa_jing]

7* - where did you hear about this?

My understanding of Wing Chun grappling, is that the source of the grappling, be it Qin Na, BJJ, Aikido, whatever - you use the Wing Chun to set it up with strikes, and for the footwork and stances and blocks, then you execute the grappling.

As far as I know, Wing Chun just has 1 grab, several arm breaks, and a few takedowns/throws of its own. But, good players always add in grappling. In the case of the traditional masters, it was Qin Na.

That's how we learn it, anyway. For instance, here's one we practice: He punches you, you tan sao (palm up block) the punch, punch him back to shake him up, wrap your forward arm around his neck, then step behind for a rear naked choke. If he drops, you drop with him and warp your legs around his torso to control.

I think a lot of the kung fu grappling is not style-specific. The style comes into play in how you set them up. Just my opinion.

-FJ

[red5angel]

7star, there are no solid grappling techniques in wing chun, some trapping skills, etc.. but in wing chun you should adapt to whatever is coming to you and destroy it when possible. The devil is basically in the details.
There have been many attemts to add grappling to Wing Chun, and if thats the way you want to go, so be it, but I dont think it is necessary.

[Cipher]

Originally posted by fa_jing
7* - where did you hear about this?

My understanding of Wing Chun grappling, is that the source of the grappling, be it Qin Na, BJJ, Aikido, whatever - you use the Wing Chun to set it up with strikes, and for the footwork and stances and blocks, then you execute the grappling.

As far as I know, Wing Chun just has 1 grab, several arm breaks, and a few takedowns/throws of its own. But, good players always add in grappling. In the case of the traditional masters, it was Qin Na.

That's how we learn it, anyway. For instance, here's one we practice: He punches you, you tan sao (palm up block) the punch, punch him back to shake him up, wrap your forward arm around his neck, then step behind for a rear naked choke. If he drops, you drop with him and warp your legs around his torso to control.

I think a lot of the kung fu grappling is not style-specific. The style comes into play in how you set them up. Just my opinion.

-FJ


I agree with Fa_Jing, We use Wing Chun with some of the Aikido and Jiu Jitstu with WC, basically use WC to close the gap and as very in close fighting and to setup other moves from there.

WC is used for close in fighting like stand up grappling with strikes but you are probably talking about some thing else.

Who knows though, if you find out more info, if it is something else than what is mentioned here can you post it? I am always interested in good WC info.

[Le nOObi]

Originally posted by fa_jing
7* - where did you hear about this?

several arm breaks, and a few takedowns/throws of its own. But, good players always add in grappling. In the case of the traditional masters, it was Qin Na.



I dont meanto be a jerk and point this out but...

QIn-na is pretty style specific since qin-na isnt a traditional style and instead a type of attack.Saying people added grappling and in the case of traditional masters they added qin-na basically would mean people added grappling in the case of traditional masters it was grappling!

If traditional masters added qin-na it would be wing chun qin-na.

[fa_jing]

Jerk! :D

What I meant by that was, they used Chinese grappling, rather than the non-chinese grappling arts that we see nowadays.

Wing Chun specific? Don't know, I think this is actually a controversial point, with different masters claiming different things. All I know is, I'm sure every Wing Chun master knew how to counter a grab with a wrist-lock, I'm sure they knew what to do if someone grabs their hair out of the blue, etc. Just like I'm sure that wing chun masters knew how to fall. Yet, AFAIK, there is no falling or counter-grappling techniques that are "part" of Wing Chun. There may be some weapon disarms??

My other point being that grappling techniques from many other sources, easily can be incorporated into Wing Chun. Look what Leung Ting has done. My sifu has done the same, although to me, some of the locks we do look suspiciously like they come right out of wing chun. Like Huen Sao-type movements, and a downward wu sao movement that looks like it came out of the third section of Sil Lum Tao, right after the second double Lan Sao.

Interestingly enough, the 7* praying mantis master, who runs our school, is a very, very traditional Kung Fu guy, having grown up and graduated at the top of the most famous 7* school in Taiwan and Hong Kong. Praying Mantis has tons of it's own Qi-Na. Yet, he has incorporated some Aikido moves into the system, which grew out of a collaboration he has with some guys in New York.

-FJ

[Le nOObi]

Yeah well your a doody head






I see your point. i still think any move a master who totally understands the principles in a system adds to a system becomes part of the system.I mean look at tai-chi huge amounts of stuff has been added but it all fits the principles.

P.s. i know NOTHINg about wing chun except a little bit of its principles and how it fights so that paragraph about leung ting was lost on me.

[BeiKongHui]

In Wing Chun we have "cum na" such as some arm bars, arm breaks and knee trapping. We have some throws and take downs which can be used to seriously injure someone or just put them on the ground. We have a couple of grabs used mainly to unbalance an opponent. As for what is commonly thought of as grappling we do not have any which is why I wrestle (or attempt to!). Some people have attempted to modify the techniques to add in "anti-grappling" techniques like striking on the way to the ground, etc which isn't part of Wing Chun and not very effective in my experience.

[SevenStar]

I have a WC friend who always refers to it. When I see him grapple though, it's no different than basic JJ and some chin na. Consequently, I've been wondering why it's deemed as WC grappling. That made me think there was some type of difference.

[BJJISTHEBEST]

wing chun has grappling my arse i bet you it's the most ineffective grappling system their is

[rubthebuddha]

sigh. i miss ralek. at least he was entertaining. this guy just makes the word "moron" seem insufficient.

as far as grappling in wc/wt, you have joint manipulation the same as any other art. the elbow can only be manipulated so many ways, and the same goes for wrists, fingers and shoulders, so for someone to say they have an exclusive system grappling is a joke. wt locks are all qin na and they serve similar purposes -- either for upsetting someone's root, for holding a violent attacker in check or for outright damage to the joint in question.

the main differences seem to lie in how the qin na technique was arrived at and what follows it. bjj may break the joint, aikido may just toss someone through the wall and wt may use it to set up for a few fak saus across the neck. the techniques are often the same, just as the joints being manipulated are the same.

you want to lock someone's elbow? you need to brace further up the arm from the elbow and you need a lever closer to the wrist. whether you get there from a straight punch, chi sau or rolling on a mat, an elbow lock sucks no matter who's putting it on you.

[PHILBERT]

no Tae Kwon Do has the most ineffective grappling. None!

As for Wing Chun, Wing Chun itself has no grappling like BJJ grappling stuff. Or so some of my classmates who have studied Wing Chun told me. However Emin Boztepe introduced some grappling into the Leung Ting version of Wing Chun (Wing Tsun).

There *may* have been some grappling before it, but because of Emin's wrestling background, from what I've heard, he introduced grappling concepts. In fact I got 3 videos in my room right now with him in them. The first is punching, the second is kicking/multiple attackers and the final is grappling and throwing techniques.

But grappling in Wing Tsun is nothing close to grappling in BJJ. Then again I don't enjoy being in positions where it looks like kama sutra or missionary sex.

[PHILBERT]

NEW KAMA SUTRA TECHNIQUES REVEALED!!!

http://bjj.org/susumu/ufc37-20020511/images/susumu08.jpg
http://bjj.org/susumu/ufc37-20020511/images/susumu13.jpg

http://www.carlosmachado.com/photos/carlosriccohouston.jpg
Caption:
"Oh you cheating *******! How dare you take Ken to prom instead of me!"

http://bjj.org/susumu/pride20-20020428/images/susumu06.jpg
Missionary?

http://bjj.org/susumu/pride20-20020428/images/susumu13.jpg
"Come on! At least I'm using K-Y Jelly!"

http://bjj.org/images/Rickson/VT94/rg94-03.jpg
"And this year's skullin` award goes to..."

http://bjj.org/images/Rickson/VT94/rg94-08.jpg
Oh yeah, mullets are ineffective for NHB.

http://bjj.org/images/Rickson/Pride-1/p-1ric06.jpg
"Lets see, if I hold him up here, its much more erotic."

http://bjj.org/images/Rickson/Pride-1/p-1ric07.jpg
"Oh baby I like it rough!"

Before I **** off the BJJ guys, I am doing this as a joke to make fun of this Ralek wannabe.

[scotty1]

LOL :D

[Shadow Dragon]

NOOOO, I will not partake in this activities.

Unless I can get some good looking woman to spar me on the Water Bed.

Sorry, my idea of male bonding differs.

Peace.

[Ryu]

;)
Duhhhh Thtop makin fun of us there grapplars!

Ryu

[rubthebuddha]

emin added a lot of things, but it's not leung ting wing tsun. sigung leung ting is actually busy in america paring things back to what he has always taught.

and as far as grappling, wt doesn't have takedowns and me-wrestle-with-you-on-floor type stuff. what it has is what is termed as anti-grappling -- stuff to get us OUT of a hold, lock, takedown, etc., so we can do what we know best (chain punch, fak sau, bil sau, etc.). most, if not all, of our anti-grappling is application if chi sau.

as to what i wrote of earlier, the chin na was simply a reference to what's being done to a person's joint. where we're at when it happens (ground, standing, underwater, on jupiter -- now there's a place to train your stances!) wasn't the issue, nor what the intent was. what i was referring to was simply the manipulation of the joint to cause pain and/or damage. the angles a grappler uses to cause damage to a joint are the same as ours -- each our ancestors were smart enough to listen to what angle causes the loudest "OWWWWWWWWWWW" in others, and take full advantage of it. now whether you have someone in your guard and you apply a figure-four armlock or if you're in your jin ma and twist away at their arm doesn't matter -- a wrist is a wrist, and pain is pain.

[SevenStar]

That's an interesting take on it. I've noticed that chin na isn't quite the same on the ground though...

[Mr Punch]

I've seen a few examples of 'wing chun grappling'. Never a good one. The worst, which painfully obviously doesn't work, is a kind of half-assed ikkyo tenkan (aiki elbow lock, with a circular step around the outside so you're facing the same way as your opponent to redirect him, which can be changed into a throw or a takedown) from a kind of pivoting lap sau. It's nonsense.

Tok sau (straight from chum kiu) is a nice strike to the elbow designed to break or otherwise mess it up, and seems to work quite nicely.

Basically I don't think it's designed for stand-up grappling, and my understanding of it (as RTB's) is that the energy used in wc is much better for disrupting people's grips and preventing locks or holds.

Having said that, if you can keep your famously 'perfect wingchun body structure' (TM?! or has it already been taken!), it lends itself absolutely beautifully to iriminage, straight-through ikkyo or yonkyo, and occasionally slips into kotegaeshi or nikkyo, or from huen sau to kansetsuwaza.

As Cipher and Fajing said the positions in wc CAN be used for grappling. Doesn't mean they are that effective in an unmodified form... The description earlier of the rear naked choke fits more appropriately to me as a takedown with a fuk sau pulling back through centreline and takes very little effort. But the fact that you are behind him has already maybe gone against the principles of economy of movement...!?

[Mr Punch]

By the way, for everyone's sake, please don't move this to the wc forum, it's been done to death!!!:eek:

[anerlich]

The WC forms do have grappling applications. In the first form, Sil Lim Tao, there are moves that can be applied as:

Basic front collar choke
Rear naked choke
Cutting armbar
Guillotine
Another type of standing armbar
Half Nelson Lapel choke
Outer reaping throws

Chum kil has arm drags and throws

Bil Jee has a type of kneeride position.

BJJ has a centreline principle, economy of movement, use of all limbs simultaneously, using the opp's force rather than opposing it directly. Use of contact reflexes. Overcoming superior force with sensitivity, leverage, technique, and strategy. Some principles are similar to Wing Chun.

But I didn't pick up on most of this stuff until I began BJJ. The Wing Chun school I attend is also a Machado BJJ affiliate school. And if all you don't train to use this stuff in grappling regularly, it wil not work for you.

Sometimes practising a different art will allow you to see your first art with fresh eyes. But you have to be prepared to look.

www.combatcentres.com