Will the real wing chun please stand?

[kungfu cowboy]

Ok, I am totally amazed how different the teachings of what is defined as a particular art, expressed by someone who is generally recognized as having the ability to display its essential features, for example yip man are interpreted by several different groups.

They bear no obvious relation in terms being able to identify their origin as being the same. The gross physical movements are very dissimilar. I would think that they should all be recognizable as belonging to the same founding principles. At what point does a slight variation become an entirely new animal?

Is there an evolutionary process inherent in martial arts (or humanity in general) that must eventually alter something so that the very core changes? Not usually, I would think. Usually, the changes that occur are increasing smaller as they become refinements.

I can't imagine how this could happen with quality results in a short time, such as the time since yip man. Usually new ideas must bear long challenge with overwhelming results deciding that that is the direction in which it must go.

So really, what explains an art that is no longer recognizable as such?

Is it a product of bad teacher or bad student, or is it possible that there is a real revolution in terms of the expression of principles?

[yuanfen]

Ok, I am totally amazed how different the teachings of what is defined as a particular art, expressed by someone who is generally recognized as having the ability to display its essential features, for example yip man are interpreted by several different groups.

(Why are you amazed? I am not!!))

I would think that they should all be recognizable as belonging to the same founding principles.
((You mean imitations should look the same?))

At what point does a slight variation become an entirely new animal?

((When one hasa clear standard in order to understand the variations.Unfortunaytelya standard can easily be seen by some as dogma))

Is there an evolutionary process inherent in martial arts (or humanity in general) that must eventually alter something so that the very core changes?

((Happens all the time--- well known in animal breeding))

Not usually, I would think. Usually, the changes that occur are increasing smaller as they become refinements.

((If the core standard is understood in the first place))

I can't imagine how this could happen with quality results in a short time, such as the time since yip man.

((Why cant you imagine? YM's wing chun was the genuine thing.
People who spent little quality time with him- began to make up their own things- while piggybacking on the name. Cohibas and imitation cigars and puros))

[kungfu cowboy]

Yuanfen, I guess what I am saying more plainly is that I don't think a lot of wing chun being touted as such is actually wing chun, and it amazes me that what is a minimalist art that contained none of these features can run the range from looking like kickboxing to wushu.

[yuanfen]

where have some of the wing chunners gone
gone to jkdo everyone
when will they ever learn
Oh when will they ever learn

Where have all the jeet folks gone
gone to brazil everyone
when will they ever learn
oh when will they ever learn

where have all jutsu folks gone
gone to the ground
everyone
when will they ever learn
oh when will they ever learn

[kungfu cowboy]

LOL!!:D

[red5angel]

KFCowboy - Flashy sells, eveyrone wants to look good, or look like those crazy flying kungfu guys from the HK films. no one wants to stand in a crazy looking, uncomfortable stance for hours, much less 20 minutes ot get something hard to define in english such as 'root'.
Other people want a good workout, for the body, wingchun works out the mind more then the body!
Still others are concerned with self defense, which you can obviously get by taking a 2 week class :rolleyes: in the age of guns and gangs.......

The problem is too many people are lazy and dont want to work for it. Wing Chun is a minimalist art but in the beginning you must work hard to get to that 'little or nothing'.

[hunt1]

All WC shares common motions,tan,bong,fook etc and basic concepts.The problem is that very few through the years have learned how to use it.

Using Yip Man as an example.He told his students dont believe him try it out and see if it works.Yip Man did not spoon feed.it is doubtfull those before him did either.Yip Man felt you had to be educated and intelligent to really learn WC.WC was designed for fighting period.

Now just read this forum and you see how most teach WC today and have taught it for the last 40 years or so.

Today students believe their Sifu has all the answers.If I dont do it your way I must be wrong.How many people have tried to learn how to make WC work?How many Sifu's.They take short cuts,add some thai kicks for instance instead of learning to apply WC kicks and footwork.(Example round kick,if you know WC footwork then you know WC has a round kick).

Today everyone wants to be spoonfed.Sifu! Sifu! tell me how to defend against (x).

Today evryone talks in buzz words(root etc).How many learn how to link and unlink,root and unroot,sink and rise etc..Very very few learn these things or how to make them work.They get dazzled by the art,wow Sifu's inch punch is amazing or wow Sifu roots on one leg and you cant move him.The question is how many can actually do these things in the few seconds you have in a real fight.

Many of Yip Mans students didnt learn the whole system so they filled in or just skipped things.Some tried to learn how it works and some didnt.Others learned a great deal but dont want to share it.Some concentrated on fighting thus students may have lost some of the art.Others did the opposite thus losing fighting effectiveness.



All these things have led to todays WC.The good part is that if you keep an open mind you can learn real WC.You just have to put the parts together.

[yuanfen]

Many of Yip Mans students didnt learn the whole system so they filled in or just skipped things.Some tried to learn how it works and some didnt.Others learned a great deal but dont want to share it.Some concentrated on fighting thus students may have lost some of the art.Others did the opposite thus losing fighting effectiveness.
All these things have led to todays WC.The good part is that if you keep an open mind you can learn real WC.You just have to put the parts together.
-------------------------------
Good post! Still surprises me when folks here and the vtaa rag
list criticize others because they think that Yip Man taught a single rigid version of working on the mok jong. What a good sifu sez is important but proclaiming the virtues of sifu is not enough for learning the motions well and the spontaneous applications
of motions without imitation and without painting by numbers
on the canvass at hand.

[Rafael]

Any way to me it is pretty simple. Let's go to the root or source of the problem.

The problem is WC is a very flexible art. It will be interpreted as such. Ip Man taught it that way. So then when Grandmaster Yip dies everyone claims to have the "real " WC when all they have is their own interpretations.

I am not saying these variations are bad or cannot work. It is just the artist's interpretation.

Too many people cannot understand there is more then one way to skin a cat. Too many people cannot really understand with in the principles of WC there are more then one way to to achieve your goal which is to win the fight.

These kind of who does the real thing or who does it best is evident in many styles as well.

See people will claim 'their way ' is superior for $$$$$$$$$$$$$

They prey on those who are robots to be lead. ( no pun intended)

With in a style or way that allows as much freedom in WC there will always be these type of issues like which one is the "real one"

In the Junfan JKD communities this is the norm as well.

I debated this many years. Now to me it is no longer important as the shift of my training and efforts have gone to the individual artist or me.

It is not about the style ultimately.in is about the individual.

Let's look at something else. We all know Ip man learned one style of WC . Then learned another after he lost a fight.

What did he do next? He went and challenged all the other grand masters of Wc to claim it.

To have the conformity people want something similar would need to be done.

I am not saying to do this ....but understand there will always be these issues if all the different ideas and theory’s are not realistically tested.

I myself can live with all the different variations. For some its more of an issue

RF-

[red5angel]

Rafael said - "It is not about the style ultimately.it is about the individual. "

This sounds too much like the 'open-mindedness' of JKD. Dont mistake that before you begin to make an art your own you have to understand it to a high degree. Most people dont reach this although planety claim to, or just skip it and go for adding other things into the mix.
Is the best way to build a house just to go out, get some wood, a hammer and some nails and start building? Or is it to study achitecture, work a little in the business with someone who knows what is going on, and then going out and doing it on your own?

[Rafael]

I decided to edit this as to not be so confrentational as this does no good over a computer :)

You do not really know me or what I have trained in. How do you make your assumtions ? By being openmided? Chances are the openminded artist has been really tested or has really used his Gung fu and has not just learned untested theory in a classroom.
:)

If you have not trained in in JKD how can you even comment on it?

I have trained both styles for sometime now .

I think my WC skill is up there with anyone my age.

By the way I take me being openmidness as a compliment.

Now you my friend seem a bit in the "closeminded "

A closeminded artist is one that may run into problems in the "real thing":)

Many WC people are so spoon fed and regurgitate what there masters tell them.

It is a crime to not think for yourself.

I do agree one must have a proficancy and working understanding of the art before they can freelance.

We are in agreement there .

RF-

[Rafael]

My friend please think before you write next time ...please do not assume things.

2years is good time and I commend you for it. But it is not enough time to spend in any art to comment about anything.

Think hard next time grasshopper :)


RF

[red5angel]

Rafael- I have as of late been trying to keep things friendly around here but your condescension does not appeal to me. Before you ask me to 'think' before I write I suggest you do the same, here is why......

2 years in anything is enough time to get a feel for something. 10 years in something doesnt make you an expert, especially if you are doing it wrong.

I have not trained in JKD because there is no such thing. By its own tenets it does not exist. I tmight be cute to think that studying a buffet style martial art is the way to go, but it doesnt work if you have no foundation.

I would take openmindedness as a compliment too but in this case I used it in quotes. The 'openmindedness' of JKD is a joke. To study a style that isnt supposed to be a style? How does that work? Why dont you just weight lift and have someone hit you several hundred times a day? Then at some point you will be so strong and so tough you wont have to worry about it. Contrary to popular JKD belief, most systems have been tried and tested over a few dozen decades or a few hundred years. How long has JKD been around again?

"Many WC people are so spoon fed and regurgitate what there masters tell them"

How about.. "Many KungFu people are so spoon fed and regurgitate what there masters tell them"

Or.. "Many Martial Arts people are so spoon fed and regurgitate what there masters tell them"

Or even..."Many JKD people are so spoon fed and regurgitate what there masters tell them"


If you will go back and reread my statements you will find I make no assumptions but the ones I have to make in order to have a conversation with you. If you find that anything I say has offended you then you need to ask yourself why. I recommend you do not make a habit of following the path of the internet azzhole and try to think for yourself, dont make assumptions, try to converse with people on an even keel, try not ot make assumptions, dont condescend to someone you think you know more then, and dont make assumptions. Did I mention not to make assumptions?

My name is not grasshopper, you are more then welcome to call me by my Screen name or by my real name, Jason. Sounding like a kungfu monk does not make you one.
If you have nothing of you want to reply and instead of having a civil and normal discussion, want to flame, fight and argue about things you cant prove on the internet be my guest, but dont expect me to continue to participate. If you want to talk about it like a human being who can think for himself and isnt afraid to have his beliefs challenged then I am always up for a nice conversation or even a friendly debate.

[Rafael]

YOU WROTE:
<Rafael- I have as of late been trying to keep things friendly around here but your condescension does not appeal to me. Before you ask me to 'think' before I write I suggest you do the same, here is why......

2 years in anything is enough time to get a feel for something. 10 years in something doesn’t make you an expert, especially if you are doing it wrong.>

Who said 10 years? Try more like 20. Okay lecture me with 2 years of experience: )


<I have not trained in JKD because there is no such thing. By its own tenets it does not exist. I tmight be cute to think that studying a buffet style martial art is the way to go, but it doesnt work if you have no foundation.>

You could not be more wrong then that. You need to do some research please! It is obvious you have no idea what you’re writing about! Jun fan Gung fu is the core or JKD
Jun fan gung fu is very steeped in WC. I would dare to say it is a modified harder approach to WC. You have no idea what you’re talking about.

<I would take openmindedness as a compliment too but in this case I used it in quotes. The 'openmindedness' of JKD is a joke. To study a style that isnt supposed to be a style? How does that work? Why dont you just weight lift and have someone hit you several hundred times a day? Then at some point you will be so strong and so tough you wont have to worry about it. Contrary to popular JKD belief, most systems have been tried and tested over a few dozen decades or a few hundred years. How long has JKD been around again? >

You have no idea what you write. Maybe go to a school to find out how it works? And you forget I can tell you a thing or 2 about WC as well. Are you an instructor in WC? I don’t think 2 years would be enough time do you? So I am not just some JKD guy. My base art actually is WC!


<If you will go back and reread my statements you will find I make no assumptions but the ones I have to make in order to have a conversation with you. If you find that anything I say has offended you then you need to ask yourself why. I recommend you do not make a habit of following the path of the internet azzhole and try to think for yourself, dont make assumptions, try to converse with people on an even keel, try not ot make assumptions, dont condescend to someone you think you know more then, and dont make assumptions. Did I mention not to make assumptions? >

Fine, you do the same okay? :)

<My name is not grasshopper, you are more then welcome to call me by my Screen name or by my real name, Jason. Sounding like a kungfu monk does not make you one.
If you have nothing of you want to reply and instead of having a civil and normal discussion, want to flame, fight and argue about things you cant prove on the internet be my guest, but dont expect me to continue to participate. If you want to talk about it like a human being who can think for himself and isnt afraid to have his beliefs challenged then I am always up for a nice conversation or even a friendly debate.>

Sure but but the same goes for you okay ?

RF-

[Rafael]

<2 years in anything is enough time to get a feel for something. 10 years in something doesnt make you an expert, especially if you are doing it wrong.
>


Can you tell me what I am doing wrong then? You tell me the correct way to practice then. I would like to know this.

Have you learned all the forms in WC yet ? I think all people learn at diffrent pace's but that sounds like 2 short a time to learn everything there is to WC don't you think ? \

By the look of your writing son seems you feeled you mastered it all already.

I by all means I have not learned everything yet. But I have put in my hard earned trained years. I am proud to say I think it shows.

Also I do not mean this as a challenge so don't take this way . But if you are ever in southen california feel free to drop by .

Hey mabey you can show me what I am doing wrong. :)

RF-

[red5angel]

I never professed to show you what you are doing wrong, but check out my Challenge thread if you are interested. If you can make it up to San Francisco, stop by Kenneth Chungs school, or Ben Durs. They are the best in the business.

I agree, 2 years is a short time, and I probably have a ways more to travel then you but let me put this in perspective. have you ever met an old person who is a fool, or couldnt stay out of trouble, or was just plain dumb as a rock? Well, by the logic that time makes skill, there shouldnt be any. All old people should be really intelligent, smart enough to not make mistakes, or atleast not nearly as many as younger people. Age does not make perfection. People who age do no always get it.
The same goes for wingchun, just because someone has been in for so many years doesnt mean they are doing it well or right. I know that a lot of people have given up the time they have put in to empty thier cup and start over with Ken Chung and Carl Dechiara.
A lot of people out there are fooling themselves. There is no way to say that without offending people but it is the truth.

[Rafael]

And I do agree 100% !

You make good points.


Good training

RF-

[red5angel]

You too Rafael, thanks for meeting me half way on the rational discussion thing! ;) I will remember that invitation to come to southern california, and you are always welcome to stop by if you find yourself in minnesota, although hopefully it isnt in the winter!

[Shadowboxer]

A jazz teacher once said this to me,"Imitation,Assimilation...Innovation"
I see alot of improvisation in WC, especially Chi sao. Perhaps it applies here in the martial world also?

[vingtsunstudent]

'A lot of people out there are fooling themselves. There is no way to say that without offending people but it is the truth.'
honestly red, do you really feel you have travelled enough & seen enough quality wing chun to say that.
i feel it is great to see such admiration for your teachers and i would be the first to tell you how good i feel my sifu is, however would you give it a rest. i sometimes wonder how much difficulty they have walking with you so far up their behinds.
vts

[vingtsunstudent]

'If you can make it up to San Francisco, stop by Kenneth Chungs school, or Ben Durs. They are the best in the business.'

'The same goes for wingchun, just because someone has been in for so many years doesnt mean they are doing it well or right.'

sorry, but can you give a reason that with your 2 years of knowledge what makes you think that any of these people have it right?
vts

[red5angel]

Shadowboxer - thats interesting and I think it does apply.

VTS - I guess I have to go through this again. This is a favorite argument from 'oldtimers'. Since they have been doing it longer they must know how it works. This does not hold water with me though. If you have spent your entire life doing it wrong then you are still doing it wrong and have only become and expert at doing it wrong. I have met plenty of people doing it wrong, and who have been doing it wrong for a long time.
There is a difference between admiration and buttkissing, and I have never been accused of butt kissing ;)
As for my two years experience, going on three now, It has shown me a lot of wingchun, and travelling the country for a good portion of those two years I got to see a lot of wingchun. All of it? Of course not, but that was my experience. As for Ken and how do I know he has the best stuff? How do you know which mountain is the highest?
Thats great VTS that you think your teacher is the best, I would have said the same thing about my first instructor when I was learning from him. Now I am not learning from him..........

[Rafael]

I think you should be commended on your dedication to WC. Some people may learn faster then others. I like your enthusiasm. Never lose it, okay? :)

One thing I am not to clear with is when you write people are doing Wc the wrong way, what do you mean? How are they doing it wrong? Are they practicing the wrong forms in your opinion? Is their chi sau incorrect? Their structure not up to par? Wrong Bong sau aliment? Their not sealing their shoulders and turning off certain muscles at certain times?

Or is it in the practicality or how they use WC? Can you explain this?

Just want to get a little more of your perspective.

RF-

[red5angel]

no problem Rafael, this is what I see most of -

Loose, floppy arms. Chi sau should have some intention behind it, not just flapping arms.
High shallow stances. While doing SLT, your stance should be deep, this developes a strong root and allows you to absorb your opponents energy much easier. You should have your knees from 2 finger widths to a fist a part.
Relaxed energy is another big one. Many people are still tight with their wingchun, striking with tenseness. Also, and probably one of the most common is the efficiency of wingchun. Wing chun was designed to be efficient, direct. Movements should be minimal, and a good wing chun man should move as little as possible, or a better way to put it is you should only move as much as you have to. Precision is the key. I see alot of sloppiness in some schools. I dont think this is necessarily a lineage thing but more a school to school thing.
For instance, Pak Sau was explained to me in detail a few weeks ago. If you keep your hand close to your chest, it gives you more room for mistakes, more room between you and your opponents attack. If his fist gets through you are still in pak, and the sideways action is going to nullify most of his forward energy. So even if he taps you a little, no big deal. This also means your pak doesnt have to go very far to nullify the attack.

[Rafael]

I think I can agree to some extent on that . I just think a lot of times the problem is with the dedication of the student or teacher.

So its in the mechanics /technique and structure you see the problem ,right?

I tend to agree with that .


Thanks

RF-

[red5angel]

"I think I can agree to some extent on that . I just think a lot of times the problem is with the dedication of the student or teacher. "

I absolutely agree with this statement. More often then not it is due to laziness or lack of dedication to the art. Some people dont have time, or atleast dont want to make time. But it seems that often these people who dont make time can turn to teaching at some point.
For example, here in minneapolis, we have a few wingchun schools. Almost all of them are being taught by people who havent learned the entire system much less taken the time to study what they do know. It is also popular here to cover percieved holes in the wingchun system with other arts, or to integrate some of wingchun into a system of MMA. Alo toftimes the motivation seems to be money, or desire to be seen as a figure of authority on a subject or to hear themselves called sifu. It kills the art because these people dont want to have the patience to really learn the system. to really see the beauty in its simplicity and how easy it is once you put the time and effort into it.

[vingtsunstudent]

well red i noticed you told anerlich that you hope to get to oz within a couple of years, so all this old/young timer will say is that i can't wait, as it will be good to see how disillussioned i have been for so long.
no need to worry about training facilities either as i have a large shed which i'm sure we will be able to fit your extremely large head in.
i'm sorry for making the mistake of thinking that you only had 2 years experience when it is more close to 3.
do you mind me asking how many times you have tested what you have learnt so far in actual comat?
i am not meaning to be rude but as un-needed as some might believe this a fighting art & i don't care what anyone says, talk is just talk until you put it on the line & see if it works.
vts

[sunkuen]

Forget it pal...Chrissy99 challenged me awhile back so i gave him directions how to get to our club....still waiting!!! (chrissy is also one of carl dechiara's students) It seems these forum hijackers are trying to be big shot's from the comfort of their little computer desk's. Big mouth's yes...Balls no!!!

p.s. (to carl and his toadeye) Please don't ask me to drive eight hours to come kick your ass.

p.s.s. carl's kung fu is just like everybody elses red5, don't let the little rich boys trips to china fool you into thinking he's better than everybody else.

[black and blue]

Does Carl practise Wing Chun in the same way Duncan Leung, Leung Ting, WSL, or TST does/did? Do/did any of these exponents practise Wing Chun in exactly the same way as Yip Man himself?

I don't think so, so why are we (Red5angel) beating up on other Sifu's?

Given half a chance I'd train with ANY of the top guys. The last thing on my mind would be telling them they don't have any root!!

H.e.l.l, I'd train with any STUDENT from any lineage. I like the fact each lineage has something different to offer. And like one of the posters said, using it in actual combat is what it really comes down to.

I've seen other WC schools in the UK and not liked what I watched. I wouldn't want to train with them full time, but good luck to them is what I say. There are those who don't like what my Sifu has to offer. Live and let live and train with as many people (regardless of lineage/style) as possible.

[Chris99]

Sunkuen,

I challenged you to put your money where your mouth is. You are welcome to come and visit anytime you like. Traveling 8 hours to touch YOUR hands is not a big thing on my to-do list. Should I make it up to Canada anytime in the future I plan to stop by.


>
Originally posted by sunkuen
>Forget it pal...Chrissy99 challenged me awhile back so i gave >him directions how to get to our club....still waiting!!! (chrissy is >also one of carl dechiara's students) It seems these forum >hijackers are trying to be big shot's from the comfort of their >little computer desk's. Big mouth's yes...Balls no!!!

Actually I believe that "big mouth behind the computer" was my line to you Jack**s. I'll leave the "big mouth and no balls" to you as you seem to have a monopoly in this department.

>p.s. (to carl and his toadeye) Please don't ask me to drive eight >hours to come kick your ass.

I am not the todai...not even close to his best student. Furthermore, it has yet to be determined what you have the ability to accomplish with me. Since it seems to be such a thorn in your backside...please come on down.

>p.s.s. carl's kung fu is just like everybody elses red5, don't let >the little rich boys trips to china fool you into thinking he's better >than everybody else.

To quote a popular movie, "Man you come straight out of a comic book".

Why not crawl back into your hole now Mr. Troll

[hunt1]

Great post I agree 100% !

[sunkuen]

Chrissy, the entertainment value you provide is second to none. If I was to come and mop the floor with you, carl, and the rest of your club, youd have to drive all the way to Canada for lessons every week. Thank the good lord VTS doesn't come and kick your asses, youd all have to move to aussieland!!! R.S.V.P.

[red5angel]

VTS - nice, please dont feel you need to lecture me anymore unless you can look at your last post there and see why you have lost all your credibility. I have not stooped to threatening, or name calling and I will not. If I come to Oz I will accept your invitation, I am not concerned about learning or teaching any lessons just touching hands with people who are interested. As for a fighting art, maybe this is the first thread of mine you have read, but I have always said it is a fighting art, Wing Chun is absolutely a fighting art, its not pretty, its not flashy, its efficeint, its effective and it works.
As for talk is cheap, you are correct, as this is a forum it is all we are allowed. I dont have a problem with knowing if it works or does, that is why I have the other thread open to invite people to come see it work.
If you feel like you want to calm down and talk I have no problem with that but I do not study mouth boxing and so do not wish to meet you in that challenge.

BLack and Blue - please go back and read my post, I have not mentioned anyone of the guys at the top. Most of those guys have put some serious work into what they are doing. I am refering to the faceless masses of wc, the people out there who are learning or teaching the art incorrectly. That in my opinion is most of them.
I too would train with anyone given the chance, as in getting together comparing notes, and touching hands or sparring.

[black and blue]

R5A - I hear what you're saying, but most of the WC in the world is from the major players. William Cheung and Leung Ting having perhaps the largest WC organisations worldwide. Both do things very differently from your Sifu.

Your implication (well, straight out statement) that most people practising WC are doing so incorrectly, is what has got some forum members hot under the collar.

If Carl, for example, where to openly critique the majority of players, this would be interesting. But I don't believe he'd do so. The crazy "mine-is-bigger-than-yours" statements from the 80s are pretty much dead these days.

If not... lets see some real challenges from real masters (not that this proves a great deal either). Carl v Ting, Leung v Cheung, Chun v Chun (ouch!).

There was a great quote from a thread on the main forum where one Tai Chi guy said: "You can criticise my lack of chi as much as you like while I'm kicking your a**"

[vingtsunstudent]

i'm sorry red but you talk like some sort of expert.
so once again 'do you mind me asking how many times you have tested what you have learnt so far in actual comat?'
if the answer is none then i don't think you really have any reason to make a judgement that what you are learning is the cream of the crop.
i know guys from lineages that have a lot less history of their instructors fighting than i do in mine however they have still gone out there and used it successfully in real combat.
and here i was thinking that they were bums because they learnt off someone who i thought couldn't fight or even teach them to fight, gee who'd have thought that possible.
i'm sorry but i think you have no right to call people old timers or insinuate that many of us have been doing it wrong for so long that we don't realise it when all you can bring to the table is 3 years of experience. even if you had travelled all of america, which you have not, there would still be a whole world to go before you could even begin to entain these stupid thoughts.
"If you have spent your entire life doing it wrong then you are still doing it wrong and have only become and expert at doing it wrong. I have met plenty of people doing it wrong, and who have been doing it wrong for a long time."
wow, they must have been an awsome three years for you feel qualified to say that..........but then again, you are undoubtedly training with the best in the world.........or so you tell us.
i just can't understand why no-one here except for fellow students of your lineage agree with you.
i'm also sorry if i offended you with the thing about you following them little closely & getting caught up their behinds but at that time i didn't know that you were in line behind chriss99.
if you wish to talk wing chun that's fine but give the lineage garbage a rest because i'm sure that 99.99999999999% have already chose one & found what they like & the other thing is you would be far from attracting anyone new after they read your posts unless of course they have lost the plot mentally & are looking for a new spiritual leader.

vts

[red5angel]

VTS - Yes, one so far, it was over quickly. this was just two weeks ago and I still have the gouges on my hand to show for it.
Good fighting can be different then good wingchun. If you just want to be a good fighter then so be it, however I also want to be good at wingchun.

"if you wish to talk wing chun that's fine but give the lineage garbage a rest because i'm sure that 99.99999999999% have already chose one"

Thats exactly what I have been saying.

You say my travelling and such is not a valid reason to have siad I have determined that most of the wingchu I saw was garbage? That also invalidates your claim to have been doing it a while by the same reasoning. you may want to reconsider the logic of that argument.

"i just can't understand why no-one here except for fellow students of your lineage agree with you"

Hmmm, another large assumption on your part, and as inaccurate as the rest. Most of the people here have had a difference of opinion, no one here has stepped up to say they have seen Carls stuff or touched his hands or Kens for that matter and can say it sucks, or doesnt work. ;) It was a good try though, keep working at it.........

"wow, they must have been an awsome three years for you feel qualified to say that..........but then again, you are undoubtedly training with the best in the world.........or so you tell us"

Do you specialize in assumptions meant to antoginize or are you just having one of those days? All of the cliches still apply VTS, if you assume you know what that does, and pointing fingers means you have three pointing back at you. I recommend you calm down, take a deep breath and realx. If you are interested in actually discussing this instead of mudslinging and name calling and general assumption making then please, lets discuss but I am no longer interested in this sort of exchange.

[vingtsunstudent]

just as i thought.
after a deep breath, that was unfortunately filled with bong smoke, i can now sit back & appreciate the man that is red5angel.
you have thwarted me at every turn & proved to me beyond all reasonable doubt that you do know what you are talking about & perhaps i have just been hit in the head one too many times but with this final load of dribble i will leave this thread to its own devices & only hope that we can talk as nothing but wing chun brothers who share a common goal on a thread that is more about techniques and how they apply to reality than one of these highly over rated pi$$ing contests.
love ya work red & hope to hear from ya real soon.
vts