Help with punching technique + sculpting body like Bruce.. [Archive]

MantisKungFu

06-05-2002, 03:57 PM

I've been running on a daily basis for a while now in addition to pushups/free-weights and crunches on alternating days. My diet wasn't that great, so I didn't really give my upper body good definition. Now, I'm watching my diet and adding a heavy bag workout every other day to replace running on those days.

I've read that the punching bag is not supposed to move when you punch it. Why is that? When I hit it, it often swings back and forth a lil bit. Am I pushing rather than punching? How can I correct this?

Now, I know I will never be like Bruce Lee---he was far too fanatical with working out---but I'm wondering if there are certain exercises/diets that could help me reach a much more defined upper body. I don't want to bulk up like a body builder, I want to be compact but strong. I was thinking heavy bag work + running on alternating days, combined with some situps will help me attain this. What else can I do?

rubthebuddha

06-05-2002, 04:03 PM

it's called a heavy bag for a reason -- it darn well better be heavy. the idea is to get explosive power in your strikes -- so explosive that you can move a bag you really shouldn't be able to. if it moves a little and you're not trying very hard, you 1. should try harder and 2. should use a heavier bag.

as far as sculpting stuff, ironfist can give you enough info to fill your hard drive up, but keep eating better and make sure your workouts are one thing: intense. if you're not dripping sweat halfway into it, you either aren't working hard enough or are missing some glands.

that said, now go show your bag who's boss. :)

MantisKungFu

06-05-2002, 04:25 PM

Ok, thanks for the response.

I definitely work out pretty hard, I don't pause (except to take a drink/think of new sequence on bag) and I am drenched in sweat by end.

THe bag I use is one of the Hydro ones. It has an inner bladder with water and an outer one with air. I think it's around 70lbs. I weigh about 120lbs. Is this a heavy enough bag? Do I need heavier?

rubthebuddha

06-05-2002, 04:29 PM

that depends on how much you can move it when you punch it with full gusto when you're warmed up

if it moves a lot, yes, your bag is too small.

if it moves a smidgeon, keep punching the **** thing.

CanadianBadAss

06-05-2002, 04:43 PM

"I've read that the punching bag is not supposed to move when you punch it. Why is that? When I hit it, it often swings back and forth a lil bit. Am I pushing rather than punching? How can I correct this? "

Some of the internal guys could explain this in more detial... when you hit the bag and it crunchs and goes flying back and fourth is because the force isn't conscentrated and it's going every where. But if you're relaxed and do it properly you'll just hear a low thud(the bag will still be pushed back a bit, but wont rattle and shake around as much), and it'll be a more deep penetrating force

dragontounge2

06-05-2002, 06:38 PM

I belive that it has to do with penatrating power. Like some body said a boxers punch moves you out of the way some but a good internal punch is like the hit goes to the spine.

1. Lift some more free weights.

2. Increase the heavy bag to an opponents body weight. Unless you are going to fight a 3rd grader dont use 70 pounds. The least 110 but if you buy a new one get something high so you wont have to upgrade later.

3. Practice weight punching. but dont fully extend your arm.

4. Eat more protein, and minerals in your diet to help muscles.

whats your goal?

straight blast

06-05-2002, 06:48 PM

. I don't want to bulk up like a body builder, I want to be compact but strong.

Don't worry about that one too much. I got into bodybuilding for four years and even though I'm one of those people who puts muscle on really easily (unfortunately fat too :( ) the amount of weights you have to do is quite deliberate; you don't become "big" accidentally. Plus you must eat very carefully and specifically to make gains as a bodybuilder. Don't sweat it that doing weights 3 times a week at your local gym will turn you into a huge, immobile muscleman ;) . It won't.

As to the rest, if you're interested in some independant reading there is a great book called "Bruce Lee's art of expressing the Human Body" published by Ohara. Not the most cutting edge (but "cutting edge" changes every week anyhow with last weeks contraindicated exercises being this week's golden boy) but a good idea of what Bruce was into. Go Hard!

MantisKungFu

06-05-2002, 06:54 PM

Through my training, I hope to accomplish a couple things:

1. I want to have good muscle definition throughout my upper body---arms, abs, chest.

2. I want to have good explosive power, so that just a few hits will be very powerful.

3. I want a good cardio workout b/c I get sick of running everyday.

Those are the main things, if I think of something else important I will add it later...

dragontounge2

06-05-2002, 07:00 PM

Ok first off for cardio Bruce lee said that 10 minutes of jumping rope is equal to 30 min jogging.

1. Jump rope for cardio.

2. For explosive power hold your pushups, and do clap push ups.

3. Bench press for your chest, and do free weights for your arms.

MantisKungFu

06-05-2002, 07:05 PM

Ok, now dealing with the weights. Will doing too much weight be not what I hope to achieve? Should I use a lighter weight and do more reps, or fairly heavy and do less reps?

In pushups, should I do really slowly up and down? Really fast? Mix it up both? I do diamond pushups, wide pushups, and just regular...

I might have to try jump rope, I've never done it...

dragontounge2

06-05-2002, 07:12 PM

Ok, I think that using more weight and less reps builds muscle and less weight more reps builds endurance. Ask Ironfist.
For the pushups do what you do in slow concentrated movements. Jump rope helps build the quickness on your feet.

Ric Wu

06-05-2002, 07:18 PM

MantisKungFu you might also try doing pull ups to help build your upper body this helps as you are lifting all your body weight. also to help build power in your strikes trying doing push ups by just lifting your body three quarters of the way up and do them as fast as possible these push ups help with short range strikes and really build the shoulders. Another push up you might try requires you to not move up and down in the traditional manner but spring your whole body upward with a short push and then try to turn clock wise or counter clock wise in a circle these exercises are used in Ying Chao Fan Tzu Ch'uan. I hope they help.

Merryprankster

06-05-2002, 07:19 PM

Dragon--you have no idea what you are talking about w/respect to what a good boxing punch does to a heavy bag.

Thanks for playing our game!

Mantis--want to be powerful? look into finding an olympic weightlifting coach.

dragontounge2

06-05-2002, 07:29 PM

What I said was a qoute that I beleive to be true. Many Boxers punches are so hard and strong that without hand wraps and gloves the power usually damages the wrist or even brakeing it.

You are welcome!;)

Merryprankster

06-05-2002, 07:37 PM

Have you sparred a boxer? Have you ever watched a boxer workout on a heavy bag? If you did or have, you'd know that "moving somebody out of the way," isn't part of the equation.

I'm not claiming to know what an "internal punch," does, although I'm personally skeptical that it does anything differently than any other.

However, a boxing punch doesn't "move people out of the way." It's not a push. It's a punch. When you punch properly, the heavy bag doesn't swing around much at all. It just lands with a THUD.

IronFist

06-05-2002, 11:10 PM

Ok. If you want to look like Bruce, you need:

a. His genetics

b. Tons of cardio.

Bruce looked the way he did because his bodyfat was so low. I would guess that it was unhealthily low and may have had a role in his death. See, having extreme low bodyfat for extended periods of time is unhealthy. When pro bodybuilders diet for a show, they will get down to 4% bodyfat or so, but they only maintain this for a few days so they look good for the show. Throughout most of the year they are bigger and sometimes poofy.

Low bodyfat won't make you look like Bruce if you don't have developed muscles, though. So, you need to build them up if you haven't already.

Anyway, lifting weights won't make you big. If you lift like a bodybuilder, and you eat like a bodybuilder (4-6000+ calories a day), then, if your genetics allow it, you might get big.

If you want to get strong but not get big, do few sets (like 2 or 3) with few reps (like 3 to 5) with longer rests in between sets (3-5 minutes). Do big exercises like Squat, Bench, Pullups, and Deadlift. Don't waste your time with crap like bicep curls or other isolation bullshít. This is how people get to the point where they can squat 500lbs at a bodyweight of 160. For this type of training, you don't have to eat as much as you do if you're bodybuilding. Also, unlike bodybuilding, it won't leave you sore so it won't interfere with your martial arts. Good deal, eh? Start with a weight you can easily handle and add 5lbs per workout. When you can't add 5lbs anymore, take a few days off and start over with 5lbs heavier than you started the first time. This will help you make progress for a while.

Read "Power to the People" by Pavel Tsatsouline and you'll be well on your way to getting strong without getting big.

As for the moving the punching bag thing, do this: take a baseball bat and hit your punching bag hard with it. Does it move very much? That's what your strikes should do to it (or something, don't quote me on that one).

IronFist

scotty1

06-06-2002, 01:10 AM

"Don't waste your time with crap like bicep curls or other isolation bullshít. This is how people get to the point where they can squat 500lbs at a bodyweight of 160"

That's cool, but don't you need to do something for your arms so you look in proportion?

Richie

06-06-2002, 01:19 AM

Your training seems good. I think it is important that you train for at least an hour. I think it takes about 30 mins of a training to start to burn the fat. It will take a couple of months to see the difference.

Former castleva

06-06-2002, 01:45 AM

Lots of info,huh?
I´ll add something.
Remember to use some imagination when you work-out.
You should really take care that you train all the main muscle groups you got.
If you don´t,it is possible to end up with an unbalanced body.
Use both weight-free and weightlifting exercises.
Remember to do careful warmp-up,then stretching before working-out.When you stop,you may do some cool-down stretching.
These are the areas:bicep,tricep,wrist/forearm,shoulder,chest,abdominals,calf,thigh,hips, lower back,upper back,muscle that runs to back and side of neck...
There are groups that do have different parts in them like inner,outer,rear and front THIGH.
Or shoulder.

Some muscle groups are not noticed as equal (at least in weightlifting/bodybuilding-but this is just how see it) these are fingers,buttocks,back of neck...
but there are exercises that can be,at least partially,train also these areas,like low leg squats (buttocks)
And there are exercises in kung-fu and probably in other arts to strengthen such areas like fingers.

As previously told,I´ll put my own note on genetics.
Bruce Lee was Bruce Lee,and now it´s me and all of you...
There is not one like another,and build is different.
So one can´t become exactly like him,like anyone can´t become like Arnold Schwarzenegger,no matter how much he trains.

And when it comes to punching,pinching and arts in general,all kinds of exercises and cross-training is good for you,but it is more like an add-on,something to develop your roots,which are,in kung-fu,I suppose.
So they won´t take the place and become the main thing,but as we know,it´s up to invidual.

:)

respectmankind

06-06-2002, 02:19 AM

what iron just said is the best advice i have read yet.

diego

06-06-2002, 02:41 AM

Ironfist: on a sidenote in bruce bio's it states when he was in the states in 66 he was all about wieghts and protien so he was healthy...What happened was he injured his back doing Goodmorning exercise's with wieghts on the bar. GME "place bar on shoulders and bend=basic!

so he hurt his back, and this was a recurring prob for him til his demise. he started losing wieght when he filmed in the phillipines or thailand? do to crappy set conditions etc. By the time he died one should also take into account in respect to bruces death from possible overtraining, not only was he training like a pro athlete, he was also the coach!, holding down a million dollar promotional product and such.

respectmankind

06-06-2002, 02:49 AM

actually he died of a (they think) allergic reactoin he had (rare) to asrpin. he had been in the hospital over it before. i could be ass wrong, but i am almost posotive that is what i heard/read/and saw.

popsider

06-06-2002, 03:09 AM

Yes but it is possible his reaction owed something to his physical condition at the time. I think it demonstrates that health and fitness - whilst related - are not the same thing. Don't they say top athletes are at greater risk of contracting viruses ?

Kristoffer

06-06-2002, 03:45 AM

"Don't they say top athletes are at greater risk of
contracting viruses ?"

Never heard of it. I've heard the opposite actually, train regulary and live a healthy life and u wont get sick as often.

dragontounge2

06-06-2002, 04:37 AM

Originally posted by Merryprankster
Have you sparred a boxer? Have you ever watched a boxer workout on a heavy bag? If you did or have, you'd know that "moving somebody out of the way," isn't part of the equation.

I'm not claiming to know what an "internal punch," does, although I'm personally skeptical that it does anything differently than any other.

However, a boxing punch doesn't "move people out of the way." It's not a push. It's a punch. When you punch properly, the heavy bag doesn't swing around much at all. It just lands with a THUD.

Yeah, I have seen a boxer work out. yeah, I have a friend who boxes during a spar he hit me with a right hook to the body and I was pushed to the side.

I think my advice was good, the forum is about helping people not b.i.t.c.h.i.n.g. at people who dont have the same idea as you on a subject.

And this Dam thread is about boxing!

Merryprankster

06-06-2002, 06:31 AM

Sounds like a footwork problem on your part, if the right hook moved you around THAT much.

scotty1

06-06-2002, 06:49 AM

You shouldn't be moved (pushed around) around by punches.

A good boxers punch will batter the sh!t out of you.

Watch Tyson work the bag. It doesn't swing as much as you'd think.

"I have a friend who boxes during a spar he hit me with a right hook to the body and I was pushed to the side. "

Did it just push you or cause damage when it hit and you fell to the side?

"I think my advice was good, the forum is about helping people not b.i.t.c.h.i.n.g. at people who dont have the same idea as you on a subject. "

If somebody gives bad advice (ie. advice which is not correct) then they will be corrected on it. Sorry dude.

Back to the subject, if you want to look like Bruce, do what he did - everything. Bodyweight exercises, weights, cardio, bag work etc. And eat like a fat b!tch.

LEGEND

06-06-2002, 07:32 AM

Dragon if u were moved by your boyz punch it's cause he push you instead of punching you. A boxing punch is suppose to impale you...not move u around!

dragontounge2

06-06-2002, 07:40 AM

Originally posted by scotty1
You shouldn't be moved (pushed around) around by punches.

A good boxers punch will batter the sh!t out of you.

Watch Tyson work the bag. It doesn't swing as much as you'd think.

"I have a friend who boxes during a spar he hit me with a right hook to the body and I was pushed to the side. "

Did it just push you or cause damage when it hit and you fell to the side?

"I think my advice was good, the forum is about helping people not b.i.t.c.h.i.n.g. at people who dont have the same idea as you on a subject. "

If somebody gives bad advice (ie. advice which is not correct) then they will be corrected on it. Sorry dude.

Back to the subject, if you want to look like Bruce, do what he did - everything. Bodyweight exercises, weights, cardio, bag work etc. And eat like a fat b!tch.

I didnt give any advice I just stated my opinion on the punch.

The punch was not like a push he got me in the ribs I was a little off balance if I rember right because I just left jabbed and hooked him when he was drawing back to hit I put my arm up so he didnt hit my face and I slided to the right When the punch landed.

Former castleva

06-06-2002, 08:37 AM

Respectmankind,
About Bruce,that´s what I heard too.
Having also heard many other theories,that is considered the official one (having something to do with it came from the people who were very close to him)
There was a discussion about that on www.dragonslist.com
For those interested,worth checking out.

IronFist

06-06-2002, 05:14 PM

Originally posted by scotty1
"Don't waste your time with crap like bicep curls or other isolation bullshít. This is how people get to the point where they can squat 500lbs at a bodyweight of 160"

That's cool, but don't you need to do something for your arms so you look in proportion?

Good question :) Pullups work the biceps as well as the back, and they're superior because they train the biceps to work in conjunction with the rest of the body (just like how you'd actually use them in real life). When was the last time you ever needed the bicep to work in isolation in real life? Similarily, bench press and overhead presses work the triceps. Same principle applies.

I don't know how much you weigh, but if you can do 2 sets of pullups with 50 or 75lbs hanging from a weightbelt, I'm sure your biceps would be in good proportion to the rest of your body.

That being said, if you feel an area is lagging or whatever, it's ok to do some isolation work every once in a while, or if you wanted to do a 2 week cycle of barbell curls or something that's fine. Just don't rely ENTIRELY on isolation stuff.

Make sense? Let me know if you have any more questions.

IronFist

IronFist

06-06-2002, 05:20 PM

Oh yeah, one other muscle you may wish to do seperately is the middle head of the delts (the one on the side). It isn't really hit by any of the compound exercises I listed (except maybe overhead presses). Defined side delts look cool. You might not get any direct carryover to fighting from it, but it will make your shoulders look wider, promote a more evenly developed deltoid, and when you can see the delt come out above the bicep on the side (when looking at your physique from the front) it looks pretty cool.

Doing a few sets of shoulder flies (make sure you do them right) once a week won't detract from your overall training. I say go for it, unless you're like me and you don't have to. I'm a freak when it comes to shoudlers. I never have to train my delts and they've always been my best, proportionally biggest and strongest bodypart.

IronFist

IronFist

06-06-2002, 05:21 PM

Oh yeah, sorry I forgot one more. Calves aren't really hit by squatting or deadlifting (some people say theirs are) so you might want to do those seperately if you want big calves.

There, now I'm done adding more posts :)

IronFist

rubthebuddha

06-06-2002, 09:56 PM

i told you that iron would just eat this **** up. :)

thanks for not letting me down, iron!

Rolling Elbow

06-06-2002, 10:23 PM

How about nutrition..i already train three times a week with free weights, chin-ups, and hockey in addition to my MA training. I'd like food for energy, muscle building, and remaining lean. What have ya got by way of nutrition programs?

respectmankind

06-08-2002, 02:34 AM

hmmmm... well, i have several questions. obviously iron, you know alot more than me, but i am young, i will get there. what i want to ask is how many in a set of weighted pullups? and also, i unfortunately can't make it to any gym were i can work out (for the (past 3 weeks) and i want to still improve. what can i do to actually, while not around free weights of any kind, to continue to get stronger?

diego

06-08-2002, 04:52 AM

Iron why are you the tony parsons of the fitness world?:D
You goto school for this?.
peace

IronFist

06-08-2002, 03:06 PM

Rolling Elbow said "How about nutrition..i already train three times a week with free weights, chin-ups, and hockey in addition to my MA training. I'd like food for energy, muscle building, and remaining lean. What have ya got by way of nutrition programs?

Sorry, I don't give specific diet advice. I'm an ectomorph so staying lean was never a concern of mine. (Trying to get big, now that was a problem when I was trying to be a bodybuilder). Just make sure you eat enough of everything. Don't avoid fats, carbs, or protein. If you're trying to gain muscle mass, eat 1g of protein per pound of bodyweight per day (others say more, others say less, .8g - 1.5g per pound of bodyweight is the usual recomendation). Drink a lot of water. Take a men's multivitamin. If want to gain weight, make sure you take in more calories than you burn, and vice versa to lose weight. Diet is such an individual thing based on each person's genetics that it's hard to give advice. Sorry.

respectmankind said "but i am young, i will get there. what i want to ask is how many in a set of weighted pullups? and also, i unfortunately can't make it to any gym were i can work out (for the (past 3 weeks) and i want to still improve. what can i do to actually, while not around free weights of any kind, to continue to get stronger?"

Dude, I'm young, too. I'm only 21. Weighted pullups? Well, if you're still trying to gain strength I would say 5 or less. There's no reason you can't apply the deadlift and benching guidelines to weighted pullups as well. Keep adding 5lbs per workout to your weighted pullups. Are you doing weighted pullups? How much do you weigh? How much are you using? Hey, if you're really young, like under 18, don't be training for maximum strength yet.

diego said "Iron why are you the tony parsons of the fitness world? You goto school for this?"

Who's Tony Parsons? I don't go to school for it. I'm an Information Systems major, actually. When I became certified as a personal trainer (which doesn't mean s.hit, btw. I've met tons of "personal trainers" who don't know what they're talking about) I didn't learn anything at all in the course (in other words I knew it all beforehand). It was kind of funny. Fitness is just a hobby, and I've been very fortunate to have very knowledgable people share information with me. I'm just trying to do what they did for me and pass on the information to people who want to know.

IronFist