mantis108
06-05-2002, 07:20 PM
This is inspired by Paul Lin's thread Mantis vs BJJ.
I would like to start by saying that Tainan Mantis gave a pretty good summary on how TJPM would approach fighting both standing and on the ground.
I don't speak for all TJPM schools but I am providing a personal view coming from my experience with TJPM. Also I am in no way an experienced exponent in BJJ. I am drawing on my experience with the limited encounters I have with a few friends in the ground fighting area plus the many readily availabe material from various sources. Any error and assumption that are drawn are solely mine.
Regardless of the style (ie Mantis or BJJ), there are but 3 stages in fighting like the 3 acts in a play. Set up, Passing the guard/defense, and finishing move (ie KO or submission).
For striking art such as Mantis these 3 stages starts right away while standing and as soon as the fight starts. Being aggressive is important. Mantis is unique in that it doesn't rely on punches and kicks to Knock out. To relie on punches and kicks would be Kickboxing not Mantis. So the strikes are a front, a screen, or a guard so to speak (an offense is the best defense.) A Mantis exponent view the opponent's action the same way. So the question is how to get pass the defense - passing the guard? Footwork, trapping and other Chin Na moves are used so that the mantis stylist can obtain the blind side (ie the back) or weak side (ie left hand side) of the opponent. Strike, throw or submission hold would be the finishing moves while the mantis exponent is on foot. Idealy, the opponet hardly put up a defense due to the aggressiveness and the lightening attack of the mantis exponent. However if the opponent manage to counter every thing and even capitalize on the falling which he/she uses as a counter, or he/she survives the fall and then initiate a ground fighting phrase, then the mantis stylist would have to resort to the few tools in the ground fighting techniques to handle the same 3 stages on the ground.
BJJ exponent set up the opponent while have his back on the ground known as the guard position. So the fight really starts once both fighters hit the floor. In this sense, BJJ is somewhat passive while standing yet it becomes fish in the water once the fight comes to the ground. The tendency of using the guard is similar to TJPM using Chitt Jow (cut elbow) as the set up. IMHO, Chitt Jow is the bread and butter of TJPM as much as the guard to BJJ. BJJ exponent would use the guard position to launch attacks (usually submission holds) or counter the opponent's attempt in passing the guard just as TJPM uses Chitt Jow to launch attacks. In certain situations, the fight would evolve into side control and mount positions. In those cases, they are the same as the mantis stylist failed to finish the opponent with a strike or throw and was drawn into a ground phrase. Ideally, BJJ exponent would finish the opponent in the guard position without going into the other 2 positions. This is totally possible if the opponent knows nothing of the ground fighting.
So there really is not much different in the thinking but very much different in the execution. Choosing the ground (pun intended) and the time, as in military terms, divides the arts apart.
It is clear to me that Paul Lin made a crucial point for Mantis and TCMA for that matter that the failure to fight standing is letting your opponent pass your guard and the fight becomes messy. In deed, it is Kung Fu to stand on your feet. All it takes is practice and more practice. If you are strong with your strand up skills (striking, grappling and throw), your guard is strong which essentially means your style is strong. Personally, as a Mantis stylist, I see the need to strengthen that area rather than chasing secondary measure (ground fighting). Having said that I have to stress that I would not come to this understanding without looking at BJJ. The reason to look into BJJ for me is to further my understand of my mantis not the other way around.
I would like to start by saying that Tainan Mantis gave a pretty good summary on how TJPM would approach fighting both standing and on the ground.
I don't speak for all TJPM schools but I am providing a personal view coming from my experience with TJPM. Also I am in no way an experienced exponent in BJJ. I am drawing on my experience with the limited encounters I have with a few friends in the ground fighting area plus the many readily availabe material from various sources. Any error and assumption that are drawn are solely mine.
Regardless of the style (ie Mantis or BJJ), there are but 3 stages in fighting like the 3 acts in a play. Set up, Passing the guard/defense, and finishing move (ie KO or submission).
For striking art such as Mantis these 3 stages starts right away while standing and as soon as the fight starts. Being aggressive is important. Mantis is unique in that it doesn't rely on punches and kicks to Knock out. To relie on punches and kicks would be Kickboxing not Mantis. So the strikes are a front, a screen, or a guard so to speak (an offense is the best defense.) A Mantis exponent view the opponent's action the same way. So the question is how to get pass the defense - passing the guard? Footwork, trapping and other Chin Na moves are used so that the mantis stylist can obtain the blind side (ie the back) or weak side (ie left hand side) of the opponent. Strike, throw or submission hold would be the finishing moves while the mantis exponent is on foot. Idealy, the opponet hardly put up a defense due to the aggressiveness and the lightening attack of the mantis exponent. However if the opponent manage to counter every thing and even capitalize on the falling which he/she uses as a counter, or he/she survives the fall and then initiate a ground fighting phrase, then the mantis stylist would have to resort to the few tools in the ground fighting techniques to handle the same 3 stages on the ground.
BJJ exponent set up the opponent while have his back on the ground known as the guard position. So the fight really starts once both fighters hit the floor. In this sense, BJJ is somewhat passive while standing yet it becomes fish in the water once the fight comes to the ground. The tendency of using the guard is similar to TJPM using Chitt Jow (cut elbow) as the set up. IMHO, Chitt Jow is the bread and butter of TJPM as much as the guard to BJJ. BJJ exponent would use the guard position to launch attacks (usually submission holds) or counter the opponent's attempt in passing the guard just as TJPM uses Chitt Jow to launch attacks. In certain situations, the fight would evolve into side control and mount positions. In those cases, they are the same as the mantis stylist failed to finish the opponent with a strike or throw and was drawn into a ground phrase. Ideally, BJJ exponent would finish the opponent in the guard position without going into the other 2 positions. This is totally possible if the opponent knows nothing of the ground fighting.
So there really is not much different in the thinking but very much different in the execution. Choosing the ground (pun intended) and the time, as in military terms, divides the arts apart.
It is clear to me that Paul Lin made a crucial point for Mantis and TCMA for that matter that the failure to fight standing is letting your opponent pass your guard and the fight becomes messy. In deed, it is Kung Fu to stand on your feet. All it takes is practice and more practice. If you are strong with your strand up skills (striking, grappling and throw), your guard is strong which essentially means your style is strong. Personally, as a Mantis stylist, I see the need to strengthen that area rather than chasing secondary measure (ground fighting). Having said that I have to stress that I would not come to this understanding without looking at BJJ. The reason to look into BJJ for me is to further my understand of my mantis not the other way around.