5 Element Palm in Pak Mei [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

Pakmei

06-06-2002, 05:47 AM

Well from my understanding of reading the various couplets, poems / songs of Pak Mei Pai, that my Sifu has given me.

The Pak Mei practitioners will know that practising the Tun To Fau Chum is for developing the iron shirt / body and in particular around the ribs.... hence the expanding and compressing of the ribcage when prastising.

So from this the Tun To Fau Chum, is cultivating to 4 internal powers of Pak Mei in accordance with the Lohk Geng (6 powers of the body).

To my mind then the "Ng Hsing Mor Kiew / Sau (Kuen)" is taking the internal stage of Pak Mei further. Apparently the Preist / Monk PAK MEI himself, was reputed for having the "Golden Bell Cover".

So would it be by fusing the 5 elements of the body as one (Jing, Qi, Jin Ye, Xue, Shen - Essence, Energy, Body Fluids, Blood & Spirit) by various Taoist / Buddhist Breathing exercises, this "Ng Hsing Mor Kiew / Sau (Kuen)" is strengthening the Yang Fu (Internal Organs) to be able to withstand strikes executed with internal power.

Thus actually achieveing what could be said to be the "Golden Bell Cover".

This to me would make sense as to the secrecy of this particular form.

Anyone else have any insights they want to share?

Pak Mei student

06-06-2002, 09:12 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Pakmei
[B]Well from my understanding of reading the various couplets, poems / songs of Pak Mei Pai, that my Sifu has given me.

The Pak Mei practitioners will know that practising the Tun To Fau Chum is for developing the iron shirt / body and in particular around the ribs.... hence the expanding and compressing of the ribcage when prastising.

So from this the Tun To Fau Chum, is cultivating to 4 internal powers of Pak Mei in accordance with the Lohk Geng (6 powers of the body).

To my mind then the "Ng Hsing Mor Kiew / Sau (Kuen)" is taking the internal stage of Pak Mei further. Apparently the Preist / Monk PAK MEI himself, was reputed for having the "Golden Bell Cover".

So would it be by fusing the 5 elements of the body as one (Jing, Qi, Jin Ye, Xue, Shen - Essence, Energy, Body Fluids, Blood & Spirit) by various Taoist / Buddhist Breathing exercises, this "Ng Hsing Mor Kiew / Sau (Kuen)" is strengthening the Yang Fu (Internal Organs) to be able to withstand strikes executed with internal power.

Pak mei-
Actually, all the chinese martial arts are made within the five elements theory. Ask any chinese martial artist or very knowledgeable person. They will tell you all the martial arts are made within the theory of five elemnts.

Five elements doesn't belongs to pak mei family only. It also belongs to Southern Tong long. It also belongs to Choy Lay Fat.

The origin of all martial arts are Taoist. Thus, the theory of taoist applies to all chinese martial arts. The buddhist is not the orignator of chinese martial arts.

If you search in Yahoo.com, about five elements theory. The japanese karate also has their version of five elements theory. The japanese karate is a derivative of chinese martial arts. Thus, japanese karate also agrees with five elements and tao of yin and yang.

It is the expression of five elements, which is different than all of us. If there is a chinese martial artist here in this forum. I am sure he will agree.

sanjia

06-06-2002, 09:35 AM

PMS : Welcome back.

Mark S

kei lun

06-06-2002, 09:40 AM

Last time I posted I got blasted but Ill give it a try.

Ng Hang Moh or Mo Dik Ng Hang Moh Kiu Gung (invincible 5 element sensing bridge power) is the highest form in Bak Mei Kung Fu. CLC did teach a few people but there are few in the world who know it, and even fewer who will share it. Some lines from KwangJau still teach it, and a couple from HK line, I know Chau Fook, Ng Nam Ging and Lau Cheun have passed this on. And I know that Cheung Bing Lum refutes its existence, my friend asked him about it and he walked away. My Sifu Lau Fai teaches this form, I think he has only taught it to three people so far (myself one), and I saw one of Kwan Kwok Faifs students perform this at the Bak Mei gathering last year in KwangJau.

In the beginning of Bak Mei Geng Ging is trained, power coming out in short powerful bursts (like a shotgun). Much higher up is Sai Dong Geng, power coming out in fast continuous pulses (like a machinegun), this is part of what makes up the power of Ng Hang Moh. Both of these powers are internal.

Dr. Wong in Tennessee teaches this form, you can contact him by his website http://www.dryqwong.com
Hope it sheds a bit of light,

Kei Lun

tnwingtsun

06-06-2002, 01:31 PM

Dr. Wong in Tennessee teaches this form, you can contact him by his website.

He does,but it is concidered the closest guarded set of the

system,and he only has taught a few people to my knowledge.

I've heard him call it "Five Elements".

I'll call him and ask,I owe him a lunch anyway.

TIger Hand

06-06-2002, 03:03 PM

I heard Hg Hang moh is a made up form by some of the students of CLC.

I mean, how come some people say their is such a form and some people say nay?

And don't give me that "only worthy of inner secret" crap. Because, if you think the secret of bak mei is in the amount or the "highest" form you know.............well........................

Also, i think it would be very conveinent for a sifu to say " i got a form that no other CLC student knows" Hmm.....something to think about.

Besides, Bing lum said their is nothing above Mun Fu. Go and check out his website. You don't have to believe me.

Pak Mei student

06-06-2002, 08:27 PM

Come on guys,
We are a family.

"Ng Hang Moh or Mo Dik Ng Hang Moh Kiu Gung (invincible 5 element sensing bridge power) is the highest form in Bak Mei Kung Fu. CLC did teach a few people but there are few in the world who know it, and even fewer who will share it. Some lines from KwangJau still teach it, and a couple from HK line, I know Chau Fook, Ng Nam Ging and Lau Cheun have passed this on. And I know that Cheung Bing Lum refutes its existence, my friend asked him about it and he walked away. My Sifu Lau Fai teaches this form, I think he has only taught it to three people so far (myself one), and I saw one of Kwan Kwok Faifs students perform this at the Bak Mei gathering last year in KwangJau.

In the beginning of Bak Mei Geng Ging is trained, power coming out in short powerful bursts (like a shotgun). Much higher up is Sai Dong Geng, power coming out in fast continuous pulses (like a machinegun), this is part of what makes up the power of Ng Hang Moh. Both of these powers are internal.

Dr. Wong in Tennessee teaches this form, you can contact him by his website http://www.dryqwong.com
Hope it sheds a bit of light,"

Ken lui- Perhaps, you mean this.ŒÜs–€
Ng Hong More

Yes. I do heard of it. Ng Hong More ŒÜs–€

Let me get back at you. I will ask Bing Lam and others respectable person.

Pak Mei student

06-06-2002, 08:41 PM

Originally posted by tnwingtsun
Dr. Wong in Tennessee teaches this form, you can contact him by his website.

He does,but it is concidered the closest guarded set of the

system,and he only has taught a few people to my knowledge.

I've heard him call it "Five Elements".

I'll call him and ask,I owe him a lunch anyway.

I think you mean this.ŒÜs–€

Now, I understand your language.:D

I will ask some one of the respectable person. Be patient with me.

fiercest tiger

06-06-2002, 08:45 PM

Hi,

Since you guys have seen this form, can you tell me if the form has the usual pak mei strikes that are found in the lower forms or forms like sup batt mor or gau bo tou?

thanks
Garry:)

Pakmei

06-07-2002, 01:59 AM

I think that some people that feel the need to quote every word that I have typed out must be feeling slightly insecure.

PMS:
I think that you have completely lost the plot as to my question that I originally posted for discussion.

You quote that the 5 Elements theory isn't just practised by the Pak Mei Pai. I never said it was in the 1st place.

I have to pick you up on the Japanese 5 Elements I'm afraid.

Although they do practise the 5 Elements, it is quite different to how the Chinese percieve the 5 Elements.

For instance the 5 Elements in relation to the Zang Fu (Internal Organs) the Chinese say that Blood, Body Fluids, Essence, Energy, Spirit, all belong to an individual element.
The Japanese however say that each organ has Essence except the Heart which has Spirit.

Even in regards to the elements it's slightly different:
Chinese:
Wood, Fire, Earth, Metal & Water.

Japanese:
Wood, Fire, Earth, Air & Water.

The Monk PAK MEI, was actually one of the 5 Elders of Shaolin, so the Pak Mei art will have a Buddhist influence such as the 5 Animals (You only have to read the schools couplet to spot the connection here). PAK MEI was reputted to reside at Ermei Shan where he may have learnt his Taoist practises.

I have to say that your comment on Taoist is the origin of ALL martial arts is completely wrong. Chinese Martial Arts actually came from India which has very strong Buddhists influences.

I'm sure you know the story of Da Mo (The Indian Buddhist Preist) who was said to be the founder of the Shaolin styles!

EVERYONE:

Good post from the majority here, it's great to be to discuss a subject with impartiality.

Back to the subject of the Ng Hsing / Hong Morr Kiew Kuen. I read the poem / song on the 10 Important Points of Pak Mei, last night that my Sifu gave me.

Towards the end it does actually mention about this form, as a means to enlightenment after having learnt and become skilled in Sup Baa Morr & Man Fu Chut Lam.

This is a very interesting subject indeed.... Looking forward to some more posts on this dicussion.

EAZ

06-07-2002, 05:15 AM

The 5 elements/animals form is present in vietnamese lineage of Pei Mei. It comes after Tiger exits forest. (There are other forms as well that come after Tiger Exits forest).

I have not learnt it or seen it.

As far as I can tell from my research and what I have been told, this form has existed for a long time in PM at least since 1930s as Tsang Hué Bac is said to have practiced it when he left CLC in 1931 and came to Vietnam.

I cannot give any hard evidence for 100% certainty. Some students of CLC did travel to Vietnam between 1930s and 1950s and may have brought it with them. So until this doubt is resolved I remain at 80% certainty that it is authentic form.

However I would go against the theory written here concerning interpretation relating to iron bell.

As previous threads have shown, I to have been taught that 5 elements theory is just a common structure of older Southern schools and is a useful "manual" to pull together allt he threads of any Southern style. Many of these schools' most advanced forms deal with a name of 5 elements.

I would also agree that the reference to 5 animals/elements on Pei Mei insignia is proof enough that this theory was integrated into PM, and that it shows the connection of PM to both Taoist traditions (as many martial arts have) and to the Shaolin tradition.

Regards,

EAZ

Pak Mei student

06-07-2002, 07:57 AM

[[QUOTE]Originally posted by Pakmei
[B]I think that some people that feel the need to quote every word that I have typed out must be feeling slightly insecure.

PMS:
I think that you have completely lost the plot as to my question that I originally posted for discussion.

"You quote that the 5 Elements theory isn't just practised by the Pak Mei Pai. I never said it was in the 1st place."

Don't worry. I am not questioning your credibility. I am giving out my opinion.

"I have to pick you up on the Japanese 5 Elements I'm afraid.

Although they do practise the 5 Elements, it is quite different to how the Chinese percieve the 5 Elements."

You don't have to be afraid. If I don't have prove. I won't say anything.

"For instance the 5 Elements in relation to the Zang Fu (Internal Organs) the Chinese say that Blood, Body Fluids, Essence, Energy, Spirit, all belong to an individual element.
The Japanese however say that each organ has Essence except
the Heart which has Spirit."

No. Five elemnts theory is not only limited to internal organs. It also involves with other things. Again, unless, you have a deep chinese medical knowledge.

Or I have to take my time to write in details. It is indeed very complex theory. I can write five pages of essay on this.

"Even in regards to the elements it's slightly different:
Chinese:
Wood, Fire, Earth, Metal & Water.

Japanese:
Wood, Fire, Earth, Air & Water."

It depends which japanese family. Some family prefers the chinese five elements theory, like aikido.

http://www.seishinryu.org.uk/five.htm

"The Monk PAK MEI, was actually one of the 5 Elders of Shaolin, so the Pak Mei art will have a Buddhist influence such as the 5 Animals (You only have to read the schools couplet to spot the connection here). PAK MEI was reputted to reside at Ermei Shan where he may have learnt his Taoist practises."

I never heard of five animals. I do heard of five elements.
There aren't five animals theory of intrepretation. It doesn't rhyme with the taoist theory.

There are 12 animals. However, this is zodiac.

All martial arts are based on within few animals.

snake
elephant
tiger
dragon
leopard
crane

forgive me, i can't remember all the animals.

In the case of PM, we only based on leopard and tiger. We have some snake hands. However, this doesn't look like a real snake practitioner.

Taoist culture is always in side china. The taoist is creation within China. Buddhist is not. China never has his own religion, except taoist. Other religion is just idol worship. Taoist religion is the strongest root, since chinese civilizatin begins at autumn and spring period.

Three strongest taoist influence in China.

1) martial arts
2) philosphy
3) herbal medicine

That is why all three are one. You can't say you are martial artist, but you don't have taoist knowledge and medical practice. It is only recent years. The institutions seperates all three independantly. Eventhough, they seperates the three institutions. The institutions always recommend go back to the original way.

"I have to say that your comment on Taoist is the origin of ALL martial arts is completely wrong. Chinese Martial Arts actually came from India which has very strong Buddhists influences.

I'm sure you know the story of Da Mo (The Indian Buddhist Preist) who was said to be the founder of the Shaolin styles!"

It is a myth. The buddhist tradition only lasted about 1500 years max. The greatest expansion of buddhism is at sung dynasty. Taoist starts since chinese civilization begins in autumn and spring period. It is about 1000 years earlier than buddhist. Sun Tzu art of war is also created in the same period of Lao Tzu.
Go to search engine. Search Lao tzu. It is more than 2000 years old. Search the history of taoist. Lao tzu is the same period of confucious.

Pak Mei student

06-07-2002, 08:02 AM

five elements theory doesn't only limits to internal organs. It can have another interpretation as well.

http://www.seishinryu.org.uk/five.htm

ELEMENT
WOOD
FIRE
EARTH
METAL
WATER

COLOR
GREEN
RED
YELLOW
WHITE
BLUE

SOUND
SHOUTING
LAUGHING
SINGING
WEEPING
GROANING

ODOR
RANCID
SCORCHED
FRAGRANT
ROTTEN
PUTRID

EMOTION
ANGER
JOY
SYMPATHY
GRIEF
FEAR

SEASON
SPRING
SUMMER
CENTER
AUTUMN
WINTER

TASTE
SOUR
BITTER
SWEET
PUNGENT
SALTY

DIRECTION
EAST
SOUTH
CENTER
WEST
NORTH

DEITY
DRAGON
SPARROW
CENTER
TIGER
SNAKE

ORGANS
LIVER
HEART
STOMACH
LUNGS
BLADDER

All the chinese martial arts are created and maintained by taoist. Even you are a buddhist. They also apply yin and yang theory in Chi gung. Without yin and yang theory, how do you work on chi gung?

Pak Mei student

06-07-2002, 08:28 AM

I would also agree that the reference to 5 animals/elements on Pei Mei insignia is proof enough that this theory was integrated into PM, and that it shows the connection of PM to both Taoist traditions (as many martial arts have) and to the Shaolin tradition.

Regards,

EAZ [/B][/QUOTE]

I agree with you. However, you shouldn't say five animals. It will be a joke,if you say it to some chinese medical and martial arts practitioner. There are no five animals in chinese medicine. There is certainly no five animals in martial arts.

Note: I am not chanllege you. I am just telling you something from my good intention.

All martial arts are developed based on five elements theory.

There are only five important angle in fighting. When you cover all five angle. You are impenetrable. This is what Pak mei 's five elements means. It is all self-expression. Every martial arts have differnet interpretation of covering up all five angles.

Buby

06-07-2002, 09:42 AM

I think you will find this link interesting. The gentleman who this web page belongs too, has done his homework and was even kind enough to list some of his resources.

Here's the link:
http://www.blacktaoist.com/Martial%20Arts%20History%20Part2.html

Buby

Bolt

06-07-2002, 11:07 AM

Somewhere along the line of this conversation it seems 5 Animals and 5 Elements got confused. These are 2 entirely seperate entities.

mantis108

06-07-2002, 12:06 PM

First off, interesting thread when in comes to the 5 Elements and 5 Animals.

Before I address those points, I would like to say that there are lots of mixed and intervined material. People have a tendency to selectively present what is perceived to be "useful" material to build their cases. The link that belongs to Black Taoist would have been a great read if not for his overly racial concerns. I am sorry eventhough I understand the Afro race is a great race and might possibly be one of the earilest races (hence first civilized), those "evidences" presented are somewhat circumstancial and far fatched. While there is a sect of Taoism called Mao Shan (lance/grass Mountain) that practices black magic/voodoo/shamanism/ whatever you want to label it, there is no prove that it derived from African culture. Is Shamanism belongs to one race only? Remember all human brains are wired the same way even thousands of years ago.

Having that out of the way we shall first look at 5 Elements Theory (5ET). Like the Ying/Yang theory, it is so old that no one really knows who came up with the 5ET. Some believe that it was the Mohists (kind of militant Confucians) who created this. It has been for ages considered as a Taoism teaching. All we can say is that 5ET and Taoism are in Chinese as oxygen is in the blood. Without oxygen the blood doesn't has a purpose. Without the blood, oxygen would fullfill itself neither. All these Ying/Yang, 5ET and Taoism are the worldview of Chinese people. Those are significant component to Chinese self indentity. I can not speak for others but as a Chinese person, I can not and will not have that self indentity be taken away or be bereaved off by anyone.

Japan have modeled after China for a long time. Only since the 1800s that the tide has changed. We can see that the 5ET also have gone through a face lift by the Japanese who are into Buddhism more so than the Chinese. Buddhist's Earth, Water, Wind/Air, Fire ( the four great elements which are also the Titans in Greek) plus Wood became their version of 5ET. The 2 sets of Elements are based on different worldviews. We have to distingush them or we can argue till the end of time. It's not a matter of which WV is better it is how we desire to preceive our surrounding and make sense out off an otherwise mysterious, chaotic, and hostile enviroment. A stranger becomes your friend because you get to know him and work with him. With the 5ET WV, we get to know our stanger (nature) as our friend. That is all.

The Shaolin 5 Animals debate was covered a while ago along with the 5ET. IMHO, there are no direct correlation between them. So no need to link them together. One thing of note is that early Buddhist culture like its parent Hindu culture used animals to convey important abstract concepts such as Ying/Yang. Dragon and snake (cobra) convey the idea of Ying/Yang - the hardness and suppleness of the body. Tiger and Leopard are more Tibetant and Chinese (Taoism) symbols than Indian (Hindu/Buddhist). Quite a few of the dieties in both Tibet and China have tigers and leopard as their rides. These animals express the idea of power/strength (of fear and ferocity) as a vehicle of the devine. Crane is definitely a Taoism thing though. So again there are blending going on.

Taosit 5 Animals are quite different form the Shaolin. Again they serve a different purpose. I won't cover them unless there is an interest in them.

I believe that are reasons behind things. To see what you wanted to see is worst than being blind. So keep an open mind and work more.

I was going to address the Buddhist and Taoist of Bak Mei issue. But it lunch time for me. So that will have to wait. :D

Mantis108

EAZ

06-07-2002, 03:30 PM

I am intrigued that no one here has been taught that there is a link between the two.

We all agree that 5 elements is root of Taoist knowledge. (see Pak Mei Students classic correspondences between colours organs weather ets as outlined in commentary in Yi King.

We all agree that martial arts is laced with Taoist theory hence 5 elements.

Is is not possible to infer that 5 animals of Shaolin an addition or mix of one theory/ tradition into 5 elements classical taosit theory?

It would be an incredible coicidence that there are 5 animals in Shaolin and 5 elements that have nothing to do with eachother, no?

Without getting into all the detail I have been taught, I outline the following for your consideration:

There is theory of mutation creation descrtruction in 5 animals based on corresponding elements.

The animals also are parralleled to big yang, small yang, neutral, small yin and big yin.

Theory of fighting is integrated rather sealessly into this.

Why is it that PM is Tiger and Leopard specialty, Wing Chun Crane Snake etc....and that these animals corresponds to stances attitudes and ways of fighting COMPLETELY correhent with these two fighting systems (and other styles too but I do not know enough about them )?

I really am surprised again that no one else here considers there is a link between the two. It is so coherent, so structured in the way I have been taught. I will not debate this though any longer and quietly slide into the mists of anonymity instead of confronting potentially headon visions.

That being said I do not think the theories here are exclusive. It is possible to have more than one interpretation of 5 elements such as the one mentioned by Pak Mei student

(I am not disputing however the exact terminology of the PM form either animal or element)

EAZ

fiercest tiger

06-07-2002, 04:47 PM

Hi,

I think there is horse, lion and eagle in the animals as well, i also have the elephant and the other you mentioned.

Eaz,
5 Elements and yin and yang theories work on all techniques in bak mei. Jik bo has some great pressure point strikes for just ying and yang hands after the salute. yum yerng sau!

5 animal also are used as a minset and body types and abilities, and of course techniques.

I have 5 animals, the element form i was told was made after clc or was in the pipelines. I do know that my grandmasters lineage has this in guangzhou! I asked his son when i was in hongkong and he said NO "its ng ying kuen". he laughed when i mentioned ng hung mor! so your guess is as good as mine on this! Maybe the guangzhou lineage made it up?
:confused:

mantis 108,

hi mate its been along time, hope all is well and your training is coming along? Do you stil practise BM/LY or more into taiji mantis? I will have to see some taimantis done, never seen it before!

cheers
FT Garry:)

kei lun

06-08-2002, 09:10 AM

PMS: How did you get characters on your post? When I type characters they aren’t displayed properly, whats the secret?
Lei hai m hai jung gwok yan? / Ni shi bu shi zhong guo ren? Just curious.

Has anyone else done the five element sequence: chung choei, tok Jeung, bui gim, pow choei, gung choei? Its in Saam Moon Baat Gwa and Gau Bo Toei, some may use different names though as often is the case.
Just to help clear up some confusion, Ng Ying – is five shapes, usually corresponding to the animals but could be the elements too. But Ng Hang – is five elements.

About the GuangJau line making up the Ng Hang Moh, that’s definitely a possibility, as it is mostly found from there. The only ones from the HK line (that Im aware of) that did teach this form were Ng Nam King and Chau Fook, although Chau Fook did learn in GuangJau too.

I know Cheung Bing Lum refutes the existence of this form, and although I respect him and his position in Bak Mei, I have to say some of the things on his site didn’t sit too well with me. For instance, he gave his list of forms and said that there were with out a doubt no other forms from CLC other than those listed. Well I have a few forms in my curriculum that wernt on that list, and I know with out a doubt they are from CLC. I think many of us can say the same thing, am I right? But then again its nothing to get bent out of shape about.

Kei Lun

mantis108

06-08-2002, 12:33 PM

Hi Eaz

How are things. Hope all are well with you. :) If I may:

"5 elements link with 5 animals
I am intrigued that no one here has been taught that there is a link between the two."

As I have said before, there need not be a link for many reasons. The biggest one is that Taoist 5ET is a globle worldview with distinct Chinese flavor. Shaolin 5 animals is a view on the human body, mind and spirit with a crossed cultural model. You could link them together but it is hard to obtain a perfect fit.

"We all agree that 5 elements is root of Taoist knowledge. (see Pak Mei Students classic correspondences between colours organs weather ets as outlined in commentary in Yi King."

the I Ching is certainly a major work on Chinese worldview.

"We all agree that martial arts is laced with Taoist theory hence 5 elements.

Is is not possible to infer that 5 animals of Shaolin an addition or mix of one theory/ tradition into 5 elements classical taosit theory?"

As outline above, they are 2 separate models. The 5ET with the correspondences between things are not done liberally. This is the major misconception about the correspondences. There are well found reasons to do the correspondences and in certain cases calculations are used to make certain the associations are logical and correct. There are works available on these matters. You will have to found them and work with them.

"It would be an incredible coicidence that there are 5 animals in Shaolin and 5 elements that have nothing to do with eachother, no?"

:) Sorry, I afraid I have no answer for this one. Other than to say, it is just that incredible.

"Without getting into all the detail I have been taught, I outline the following for your consideration:

There is theory of mutation creation descrtruction in 5 animals based on corresponding elements."

Could you give us a overview of why certain animals associate certain elements. What is the reason to support that, etc. Taoist own elements and animals are base on the same worldview. They also fit in either the marcocosmos and microcosmos models. Can the Shaolin 5 animals model do that?

"The animals also are parralleled to big yang, small yang, neutral, small yin and big yin."

IMHO, and with all due respect, this is not classical I Ching understanding. It has been modified to meet the need of associating the Shaolin 5 animals to the 5 elements. I would like to know which classical work of both Taosits or Confucians has this model.

"Theory of fighting is integrated rather sealessly into this. "

no comment as it links to the above question.

"Why is it that PM is Tiger and Leopard specialty, Wing Chun Crane Snake etc....and that these animals corresponds to stances attitudes and ways of fighting COMPLETELY correhent with these two fighting systems (and other styles too but I do not know enough about them )? "

Tiger and leopard as I have said before "These animals express the idea of power/strength (of fear and ferocity) as a vehicle of the devine." ie Gang Ging. beside the physical attributes.

"I really am surprised again that no one else here considers there is a link between the two. It is so coherent, so structured in the way I have been taught. I will not debate this though any longer and quietly slide into the mists of anonymity instead of confronting potentially headon visions."

Structured, yes, Coherent, may be. But they really are 2 seperate models IMHO.

"That being said I do not think the theories here are exclusive. It is possible to have more than one interpretation of 5 elements such as the one mentioned by Pak Mei student "

That definitely is the case for there exists 2 different diagrams of 5 elements which express some different approaches to their structures and functions.

"(I am not disputing however the exact terminology of the PM form either animal or element) "

Me neither. Just some food for thoughts. Thanks for the input. Very interesting indeed. :)

FT,

Yes, it has been awhile. I am preoccupied with the mantis world. Lots of stuff to work with lately. Thanks for asking. How about yourself? I believe there is at least one Taiji Mantis school in Australia but I have not come into contact with any of them yet. BTW, congratulations on you successful website which includes a discussion forum.

Take care

Regards

Mantis108

fiercest tiger

06-08-2002, 03:37 PM

Im well thanks, just recovering from torn ligaments in my knee and starting to get back into my kung fu alot harder. actually more internal yau kung mun and our chi kung. Im having some freaky experiences with reiki and meditation at the moment and you wouldnt believe me if i told you.lol
Ive given up meat for 2 weeks and feel great, but still craving alittle.:) Im still working on the website and have many plans, money is the main thing holding me back!:(

i think there is a mantis teacher here in sydney that is pretty good, ill get here name for you she maybe in your lineage. I think she maybe from vietnam do they have taiji mantis big there?

anyways hope all is well!

take care
Garry FT

Pak Mei student

06-08-2002, 11:06 PM

Mantis108- I have nothing to say, except you are doing my job. Our view is very close.

Ken Lui- I am using chinese word 2000 and pen power.

tnwingtsun

06-09-2002, 01:19 AM

I quoted "Kei lin",
when he said that my sifu taught "Five Elements" and gave his web site out.

Maybe you misunderstood my reply,from your post its seems to be,no problem,communications today in the world these days are
so screwed up Nukes are about to fall.

Bai Mei sets and teachers?

You claim to know the set and give a good account for many
sides to common knowledge,but as far as me asking my teacher and replying to this thread for yours or others benifit or info,I'm just been too busy,I'll respond when I've got the info,but not to your time frame

;)

Pak Mei student

06-09-2002, 02:26 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by tnwingtsun
[B]I quoted "Kei lin",

Pak Mei student

06-09-2002, 02:35 AM

mantis- please read my private emails in your email box:)

By the way, if you are chu fook's students. You should heard of the three monster of pak mei. I saw ‘h™˜Œõ in shim shi po. He is legend in Pak Mei. I went to his shop. He has a picture with jackie chan. It is :cool: .

Too bad, he is too old. Or else, I would ask him to teach me.:)

CannonFist

06-09-2002, 04:04 AM

My lineage of the Vietnamese Pak Mei does not have the 5 element form. But then again my lineage of the Vietnamese Pak Mei is also missing some of the Vietnamese PM forms like "lotus leaf covering turtle" and 5 animal forms which my teacher acknowledges do exist in other lines of Vietnamese Pak Mei.

My teacher also learnt from Cheung Bing Lum and asked him about it but Cheung Bing Lum denied that Cheung Lai Chuen taught it and said that it was created by some of CLC's students.

EAZ

06-09-2002, 07:38 AM

I too do not have the time to go over the theorerical and practical structure relating to 5 animals and elements and combat.

Let us jsut agree then that fundamental internal structure of analysis of martial arts remains taoist 5 elements, and that 5 animals is a latter addition, much more limited in scope and application. However the field of application IS martial arts.

With regards to application of cycle of destruction/creation, it is a great simplification to say that X animal beats y animal, as we all know what makes you win in combat is, in order of importance:
intention
power
technics

I understand you are well versed in chinese philosophy, esoteric litterature and possibly medicine. I risk saying to you, although I could be putting my foot in my mouth, that to concentrate t oo exclusively on the abstract or internal parts of martial arts often appears to lead to putting much less emphesis on the translation of these Chinese principles to practical martial arts mastery.

Not accusing you of being new age or anything horrendous like that but often these types of people have built up big intellectual constructs that cannot be put into practice in the real world.

I do not have the time now to go over it all. But maybe if you browse through previous threads one in particular I started on 5 animals, it might sharpen your interest.

(I am familiar with 2 different triagrams of 5 elements, I have been taught this during medecine classes of my sifu as well).

Cannonfist: Can your sifu give you any more information regarding the ifferences in practice in Vietnam, notably on this subject of 5 animals, what lineages do things different ?

EAZ

mantis108

06-09-2002, 01:20 PM

Hi Pak Mei Student,

Nice to meet you. I have received your email and will be responding soon. Thank you for your kind words. Glad to know that we share some close views on this matter. BTW, my monitor can't display Chinese. So I can't make out the Chinese code you put in your message. Anyway, I will be in touch. It is great to meet a brother from one of the HK branches. :D

Hi FT,

Nice to know that you are becoming a vegeterian. :) I think we all wish we have the financial resources to promote our arts. You are doing great with what you have got already. Just hang in there.

Hi Eaz,

I hear you. I wouldn't consider myself well versed in those areas. I just have a fond interest in them. Having intellectual constructs and neglect training; therefore, fail to apply the lessons is really not my intention. Being single and no girlfriend is the reason why I have extra time to work on MA related studies [and sometime it seems they are more time consuming than MA besides relationships. lol...] ;) Work, train, think, eat and sleep that's all I do. You are right that I might have moved off topic a bit here. So we will leave it as you suggested. I will re-read the 5 animals thread, thank you for the reminder. :)

Mantis108

Pak Mei student

06-09-2002, 08:54 PM

Originally posted by EAZ
I understand you are well versed in chinese philosophy, esoteric litterature and possibly medicine. I risk saying to you, although I could be putting my foot in my mouth, that to concentrate t oo exclusively on the abstract or internal parts of martial arts often appears to lead to putting much less emphesis on the translation of these Chinese principles to practical martial arts mastery.

(I am familiar with 2 different triagrams of 5 elements, I have been taught this during medecine classes of my sifu as well).

EAZ

I am surprised. You are much more knowledgeable than most chinese about triagram. Keep up the work.

There is a difference between practices and theory. However, without theory, there aren't any practices.

The best intrepretation of five elements theory is in the medical books. It has the best kept records of five elements theory throughout the ages. The martial arts intrepretation is somewhat flexible and broad. Moreoever, martial arts records are subjected to political interruptions. The medical studies doesn't have these kind of interruptions. As a result, the martial arts interpretation is passed by person to person. It is not recorded in the actual historical records. Nowadays, no one can confirm the theory. However, there is a consent reaches abroad all spectrum of martial arts.

Martial arts are taoist creation.
Which means martial arts applies the theory of five elements.
Which means martial arts applies the theory of yin and yang.
Buddhist creates martial arts, after buddhist absorbing the taoist theory. It is proven in the historical records in chinese textbook.
The theory in buddhism doesn't coherrent with martial arts. Taoism theory is coherrent with martial arts.

For example, nowadays, some christian is absorbing the theory of five elements to create their own style.

I am not sure of triagram applicable to Pak mei, because our si jo never mention as such. Hexigram is a very abstract instruments. You can't prove or disapprove by scientific facts. It is like religion.

Some people is using hexigram for martial arts. In our legends of romance of three kingdoms, hon ming uses hexigrams methods to defeats his enemy.

Nowadays, no one can really claims hexigram intrepretation of martial arts. Some people in Hong kong study hexigram for Feng shi.

Five elements theory is indeed very complicated. No one can understand it, after a person read this forum.

In medical schools, they have to study it for three years application of five elements theory. It is not a one day study.

Pak Mei student

06-09-2002, 08:56 PM

Originally posted by mantis108
Hi Pak Mei Student,

Nice to meet you. I have received your email and will be responding soon. Thank you for your kind words. Glad to know that we share some close views on this matter. BTW, my monitor can't display Chinese. So I can't make out the Chinese code you put in your message. Anyway, I will be in touch. It is great to meet a brother from one of the HK branches. :D

Mantis108

Look forward to hear from you soon!:)

Pak Mei student

06-09-2002, 09:15 PM

Eaz-

I think this thread is asking the wrong question in the first place. They should ask where should we start the five elements theory. They shouldn't ask how to apply the five elements theory.

As a proverbs in chinese " A person can't walk, if he can't crawl. A person can't run, if can't walk."

friend,
pak mei student

fiercest tiger

06-10-2002, 03:51 AM

Why was the this form created and what benifits does it give the practitioner?

what differences does it have compared to the rest of the bak mei forms?

Yum Cha

06-10-2002, 05:18 PM

Hello everyone, thank you for a very interesting discussion. I grateful to share in another one of these great threads. Too many friends to name.

I can only speak for my school, which is perhaps much less sophisticated than many.

I've said before we do not have the 5 animal theory in our school, but we talk about Tiger and Leopard spirit, dragon waist, and of course snake strikes, and other associated animal names...but not the 5 animal theory proper.

I take it for a Taoist / Buddhist thing. The fact that Taoist and Buddhist theory have long co-existed peacefully is well known, it makes sense. Its not that you can't gain from it, or that it doesn't make sense, or that it doesn't cause you to think and learn, for it certainly makes you think.

5 Elements is to the best of my knowledge, all available in the I ching, and acupuncture or other medical texts. The theory of how the body's energy flows, more or less. I asked Sifu about the pattern, Ng Hong he said nobody remembers it.

We do a pattern called Ng Yang, some people don't. Its a great pattern, but I don't know where it comes from.

:confused: :confused: :confused: <--

Pak Mei Student raised an interesting point when he spoke to the suggestion that the animals in Taoist theory come from astrology, if I understand correctly?

This raises an interesting parallel set of interpretations that could apply to the essences of the animals?

Astrology or Physiology?

Pak Mei student

06-10-2002, 09:00 PM

tnwingtsun

06-11-2002, 04:35 AM

"Mr. expert. You can answer everything from now on. You are right my post is a joke"

Never said your posts were jokes.

Never claimed to be an expert,why are you getting defensive with me and offensive with my Sifu?

Who is your Sifu?,maybe that can explain,please feel free to private message me,like I said,I have no time for petty flame wars and I feel like you've made some good points.

I think what I could add to this thread would be of some interest to you,balls in your court,a friendly exchange of info or a flame?

Pak Mei student

06-11-2002, 07:00 AM

Originally posted by Yum Cha
Hello everyone, thank you for a very interesting discussion. I grateful to share in another one of these great threads. Too many friends to name.

I can only speak for my school, which is perhaps much less sophisticated than many.

I've said before we do not have the 5 animal theory in our school, but we talk about Tiger and Leopard spirit, dragon waist, and of course snake strikes, and other associated animal names...but not the 5 animal theory proper.

I take it for a Taoist / Buddhist thing. The fact that Taoist and Buddhist theory have long co-existed peacefully is well known, it makes sense. Its not that you can't gain from it, or that it doesn't make sense, or that it doesn't cause you to think and learn, for it certainly makes you think.

Actually, Taoist have some grudges against buddhist in ages. The destruction of southern shoalin is a good example.

Taoist is the original religion in chinese society. Buddhist is spreading from india to China. At this point of time, like other religion, they fight with each other. However, we never have a religious warfare like christian vs muslim.

Eventually, Buddhist absorbs the essence of taoist, and institutionalize their theory and practices.

There are only two form in Pak Mei ( Leopard and Tiger). Many other styles are very clumsy to switch forms, because their animal forms are not coherrent to each other.(eg, snake and elephant) Leopard and tiger are coherrent, because they are a cat form.
We have some snake hands. It is very rare and few. It is not even a snake hand.

Pak Mei student

06-11-2002, 07:09 AM

Originally posted by Yum Cha

Pak Mei Student raised an interesting point when he spoke to the suggestion that the animals in Taoist theory come from astrology, if I understand correctly?

This raises an interesting parallel set of interpretations that could apply to the essences of the animals?

Astrology or Physiology?

Some people is trying to link the two. However, there is no substantial prove of it. Hexigram is designed as a fortunate telling. There is also other hexigram, designed as a feng shui.

The point is you shouldn't believe anything, unless it is scientifically proven.

Some sifu includes astrology for their courses. I personally disagree with hexigram, because of my religious conviction. Other peoples believe this stuff.

If you notice carefully, the point of the hexigram is to so called "revelation" of infinite intelligence. It is really no difference than the fortune teller or gypsies, using thier cards to reveal your fortunes.

Call me biased if you like. I don't believe in hexigram, can interprets martial arts and future.

Moreover, in southeast asia, they practice kind of spirits thing with hexigram.

Stay away!

Hideous

06-11-2002, 08:17 AM

Kei Lun - Dr. Wong in Tennessee teaches this form, you can contact him by his website …

A rather poor choice of one to cite to as an authority on anything pertaining to matters of genuine martial art wouldn’t you agree Kei? I have seen a film in which a rather obese and unskilled SPM practitioner repeatedly knocked Yeu Quang Wong down, 6 times I do believe. Flattened him with what looked to be a Tae Kwon Do kick as well, I do believe. If Yeu Quang Wong knows the highest form of Bak Mei then the film is an acceptable form of proof that Bak Mei cannot even defeat a decidedly portly, poorly aging, out of shape, low skill level SPM practitioner. I personally do not believe this to be the case as Bak Mei done properly is an extremely powerful hand. As for Yeu Quang Wong being a martial artist or authority on any martial art all that can be said is, paper, nothing more than paper, so it seems.

Pak Mei student - Five elements doesn't belongs to pak mei family only. It also belongs to Southern Tong long.

Sssshhhh … secrets, but if you must speak, can you name any of the SPM hands and the elements they represent? ;)

Pakmei - I have to say that your comment on Taoist is the origin of ALL martial arts is completely wrong.

Perhaps in a certain, very narrowly confined sense, but otherwise his statement is quite accurate and you are the one in error.

Pakmei - Chinese Martial Arts actually came from India which has very strong Buddhists influences.

Totally false. Tracking the introduction of Buddhism to China to approximately 540 A.D. means, according to your spurious and completely erroneous argument, that no Chinese martial art existed prior to this time. Another way of looking at your absurd point of view is to see it as arguing that no formalized or codified system of combat, armed or unarmed, existed in China prior to Da Mo’s transmission of Buddhism :p

You are young either in age or experience and fail to grasp the significance of Internal as opposed to External martial arts as they originated from China either with or without outside influence and there is your clue ;)

I'm sure you know the story of Da Mo (The Indian Buddhist Preist) who was said to be the founder of the Shaolin styles!

A lovely story to be sure and I’m sure you know that Taoism predates Buddhism by centuries :)

Cannibalism is unequivocally a valid dynamic for all societies. I am, Hideous.

meltdawn

06-11-2002, 01:24 PM

Hideous
Thanks for your suggestions on the wooden dummy thread. :)

Inside or outside the family, who has and does not have "it" is between the members of that family. Let them settle their own barking dogs. When you speak so blatantly against a public teacher's ability, my master would say you are "breaking their rice bowl". This, put simply, is unethical.

I feel the need to clarify your statements in reaction to a couple of points by Pakmeistudent, only because I think you misunderstood his grammar, not because I dispute you.

H: Five elements doesn't belongs to pak mei family only. It also belongs to Southern Tong long.

PMs: All martial arts are developed based on five elements theory.

Just thought you might have read him wrong.

H: I have to say that your comment on Taoist is the origin of ALL martial arts is completely wrong... Tracking the introduction of Buddhism to China to approximately 540 A.D. means, according to your spurious and completely erroneous argument, that no Chinese martial art existed prior to this time. Another way of looking at your absurd point of view is to see it as arguing that no formalized or codified system of combat, armed or unarmed, existed in China prior to Da Mo’s transmission of Buddhism .

PMs: Martial arts (in China) are taoist creation... Buddhist creates (it's) martial arts, after buddhist absorbing the taoist theory. It is proven in the historical records in chinese textbook.
The theory in buddhism doesn't coherrent with martial arts. Taoism theory is coherrent with martial arts.

As long as there have been people, there has been hand to hand combat, I don't think anyone would dispute this and I don't see how you read that into this post. The point of his statement was an attempt to equate the symbolism in martial arts with Taoist theory rather than Buddhist theory. One must understand the culture of China and it's assimilation of foreign influences. That's why there are different schools of Buddhism and why there have been different schools of Taoism. Point in case:

PMs: Eventually, Buddhist absorbs the essence of taoist, and institutionalize their theory and practices.

Ahh, China. Where even the toilets flush backwards. And they don't use toilet paper. Or do they even use toilets?

Hideous

06-11-2002, 02:25 PM

meltdown - Thanks for your suggestions on the wooden dummy thread.

You are most welcome, meltdown.

meltdown - Inside or outside the family, who has and does not have "it" is between the members of that family. Let them settle their own barking dogs.

That would be the acceptable practice given they didn't air their differences on a public forum. Once the veil of inside the kwoon is torn down all things brought to light are, in fact, fair game.

meltdown - When you speak so blatantly against a public teacher's ability, my master would say you are "breaking their rice bowl".

I did him a great favor and showed utmost respect by not personally appearing in his kwoon to hold him accountable for his slanderous ranting against SPM. Unlike the one in the video, I am neither grossly out of shape nor is my skill low level. Perhaps your Sifu is prepared to suffer indignity for the sake of allowing one without skill to run down his art form but I am not. A matter of personal choices the right to make is a right earned over much time. I qualify.

meltdown - This, put simply, is unethical.

Perhaps you would be best served by reading the various perspectives memorialized in writing throughout the ages on this issue. Truth is not made subservient to what is politically expedient nor socially acceptable. Specific tenets appear with consistency in many written documents over the ages. They serve as rules that transcend the individual.

meltdown - I feel the need to clarify your statements in reaction to a couple of points by Pakmeistudent, only because I think you misunderstood his grammar, not because I dispute you.

By all means meltdown, by all means please do.

H: Five elements doesn't belongs to pak mei family only. It also belongs to Southern Tong long.

PMs: All martial arts are developed based on five elements theory.

Just thought you might have read him wrong.

You have lost me meltdown, are you addressing Hideous of someone else? If it is me then I would add that not all martial arts are based on the 5 Element Theory by any means or form.

H: I have to say that your comment on Taoist is the origin of ALL martial arts is completely wrong...

You have misquoted me, meltdown. You have posted another person's position on top of mine as if I made the comment.

PMs: ... The theory in buddhism doesn't coherrent with martial arts. Taoism theory is coherrent with martial arts.

Totally false. The answer lies in the Buddhist doctrine of [The right to refuse an offer of violence.]

Cannibalism is unequivocally a valid dynamic for all societies. I am, Hideous

TIger Hand

06-11-2002, 04:43 PM

Dr. Wong was knocked down 6 times by a out of shape fat guy?

I don't believe it.

Video clips on his website show him throwing 15 of his students with tremor power!

Yum Cha

06-11-2002, 04:51 PM

Originally posted by Pak Mei student

Actually, Taoist have some grudges against buddhist in ages. The destruction of southern shoalin is a good example.

<smiling> Yes, a very good example, and perhaps more direct to the point.

Hideous

06-11-2002, 05:15 PM

TIger Hand - Dr. Wong was knocked down 6 times by a out of shape fat guy?

At least 6 by punch, once by kick.

TIger Hand - I don't believe it.

A fair and reasonable position in light of your neither knowing me nor having seen the video yourself. Skepticism is a healthy characteristic to cultivate in this age of electronic enhanced charlatans.

TIger Hand - Video clips on his website show him throwing 15 of his students with tremor power!

Skepticism is a healthy characteristic to cultivate in this age of electronic enhanced charlatans ;)

Nevertheless, Dr. Wong was soundly pounded and offered nothing save for a failed ambush attempt during the entire fight. He had rather poor form both in execution of technique and demonstration of personal honor.

Cannibalism is unequivocally a valid dynamic for all societies. I am, Hideous

Pak Mei student

06-11-2002, 07:33 PM

Originally posted by tnwingtsun
"Mr. expert. You can answer everything from now on. You are right my post is a joke"

Never said your posts were jokes.

Never claimed to be an expert,why are you getting defensive with me and offensive with my Sifu?

Who is your Sifu?,maybe that can explain,please feel free to private message me,like I said,I have no time for petty flame wars and I feel like you've made some good points.

I think what I could add to this thread would be of some interest to you,balls in your court,a friendly exchange of info or a flame?

Let's say I apologize. Here I withdrawl my comment. I have no intention of fighting another pak mei.

I think we (pak mei) should united like the wing chun people.

:) Hey. I even add a smiley.

Pak Mei student

06-11-2002, 08:00 PM

Originally posted by Hideous
meltdown - Thanks for your suggestions on the wooden dummy thread.

You are most welcome, meltdown.

meltdown - Inside or outside the family, who has and does not have "it" is between the members of that family. Let them settle their own barking dogs.

That would be the acceptable practice given they didn't air their differences on a public forum. Once the veil of inside the kwoon is torn down all things brought to light are, in fact, fair game.

meltdown - When you speak so blatantly against a public teacher's ability, my master would say you are "breaking their rice bowl".

I did him a great favor and showed utmost respect by not personally appearing in his kwoon to hold him accountable for his slanderous ranting against SPM. Unlike the one in the video, I am neither grossly out of shape nor is my skill low level. Perhaps your Sifu is prepared to suffer indignity for the sake of allowing one without skill to run down his art form but I am not. A matter of personal choices the right to make is a right earned over much time. I qualify.

meltdown - This, put simply, is unethical.

Perhaps you would be best served by reading the various perspectives memorialized in writing throughout the ages on this issue. Truth is not made subservient to what is politically expedient nor socially acceptable. Specific tenets appear with consistency in many written documents over the ages. They serve as rules that transcend the individual.

meltdown - I feel the need to clarify your statements in reaction to a couple of points by Pakmeistudent, only because I think you misunderstood his grammar, not because I dispute you.

By all means meltdown, by all means please do.

H: Five elements doesn't belongs to pak mei family only. It also belongs to Southern Tong long.

PMs: All martial arts are developed based on five elements theory.

Just thought you might have read him wrong.

You have lost me meltdown, are you addressing Hideous of someone else? If it is me then I would add that not all martial arts are based on the 5 Element Theory by any means or form.

H: I have to say that your comment on Taoist is the origin of ALL martial arts is completely wrong...

You have misquoted me, meltdown. You have posted another person's position on top of mine as if I made the comment.

PMs: ... The theory in buddhism doesn't coherrent with martial arts. Taoism theory is coherrent with martial arts.

Totally false. The answer lies in the Buddhist doctrine of [The right to refuse an offer of violence.]

Let me say this. Do you belive Buddhist doctrine of {[ .....refuse an offer of violence]. It is a lie. The christian in the 1800's say the same to the native indians.

Buddhist advocates virtues, kindness and mercy. Like other religion, they kill other people in the name of religion.

Buddhist does slaughter some people in the name of buddhisim. Have you play the game "shogun"? The warrior monk is used to defend the invaders.

Who determines "the refusal an offer of violence"?

Like all the religion, (islam, christian), religion is a very powerful political tool.

Why do you think the ching dynasty forbids martial arts, except the taoist? The emperor knows buddhist rebels is using religion to overthown the government. Taoist is working directly to the ching government.

If you believe their slogan. Well. All I can say is good for you.

Note: I am using this as an example. By no means, I am critizing all the religion. All religion is good, for the development of mankind.

As for your question about the below statement.

"The theory in buddhism doesn't coherrent with martial arts. Taoism theory is coherrent with martial arts. "

Buddhist thoery is not based upon theory of yin and yang. SPM is based on the theory of yin and yang. They have flow and sink. They have right and left. It is matter of expression.

Read the link I give you.
http://www.seishinryu.org.uk/five.htm

Note: Due to the broad intrepretation, I only can supply you some information.

Five elements is in medical records, since the ancient times. The application of five element in martial arts means the five important angle in your body. Thus, if you cover all the five important angle, you are impenetrable. Pls read my post correctly.

Let me ask you this question.
All the martial arts do cover all five angles of the body is it not?

Lets say this, This is a assumption. It is not actual facts.

head = fire
right hand= water
left hand = metal
right foot = air
left foot = ?

When you draw a circle of all the points. When you cover all five angles. indeed, any fist or foot can't penetrate you.

That is in theory.

Plz don't twist my words.

:p

meltdawn

06-11-2002, 09:25 PM

Hideous,

Thank you for being so prompt and explanatory in your replies. I like the big words too. :) You are very good at setting up a trap. And you have a very good follow up. I do not think we are seeing likeui all over again (are we?). I usually speak my beliefs pretty straight forward, rather than swirling the pot and seeing what rises, so upon my reply, I will bow out of this foray.

However, your beef against Wong Sifu is well-taken, if he has disrespected your nam tong long. I have never heard such talk, but I don't get out much. His students on this forum always seem quite respectful. And if your skill level is what you claim it to be, I for one am interested in your name. Your profile puts you at 34. Is this correct? My master was formidable that that age, and often reflects upon his brashness then. So would you now work upon a perceived rift in a family as exhibited in this thread to gain your foothold?

As to to your supposition "Perhaps your Sifu is is prepared to suffer indignity for the sake of allowing one without skill to run down his art form but I am not", I will expound. My master would not "suffer indignity". This incidence would be worthless to him, or he would take care of it without telling the world. He would NOT spread talk of it. Perhaps your belief in "written documents" that "serve as rules" on the subject of ethical truth might be my equivalent to my belief in my master's teachings and my own bibliography.

As for your views on Taoism, Buddhism, and martial arts, I apologise for attempting to clarify Pak Mei student's words and your reactions. It is clear that I have no clue what your beliefs are.

But for your clarification, my screen name is "meltdAwn", in case you might have overlooked THAT. :)

Pak Mei student:

I apologise for getting in the way of your explanations. Thank you for clarifying yourself with dignity.

Carry on, Pak Mei clan.

Pak Mei student

06-12-2002, 12:35 AM

[
Originally posted by Hideous

Pak Mei student - Five elements doesn't belongs to pak mei family only. It also belongs to Southern Tong long.

Sssshhhh … secrets, but if you must speak, can you name any of the SPM hands and the elements they represent? ;)

Pakmei - I have to say that your comment on Taoist is the origin of ALL martial arts is completely wrong.

Perhaps in a certain, very narrowly confined sense, but otherwise his statement is quite accurate and you are the one in error.

Pakmei - Chinese Martial Arts actually came from India which has very strong Buddhists influences.

Totally false. Tracking the introduction of Buddhism to China to approximately 540 A.D. means, according to your spurious and completely erroneous argument, that no Chinese martial art existed prior to this time. Another way of looking at your absurd point of view is to see it as arguing that no formalized or codified system of combat, armed or unarmed, existed in China prior to Da Mo’s transmission of Buddhism :p

You are young either in age or experience and fail to grasp the significance of Internal as opposed to External martial arts as they originated from China either with or without outside influence and there is your clue ;)

I'm sure you know the story of Da Mo (The Indian Buddhist Preist) who was said to be the founder of the Shaolin styles!

A lovely story to be sure and I’m sure you know that Taoism predates Buddhism by centuries :)

Cannibalism is unequivocally a valid dynamic for all societies. I am, Hideous. [/B]

By the way, ARe you saying this to Pak MEi or Pak mei student?

It is confusing about the identity.

Actually, I already explain many things above. I do not wish to repeat it again. Meltdawn already replies you with my posts.

As your comment about DA Mo, I already answer someone earlier.

Da Mo brings the martial arts to china, is a myth. This myth is created by a fictional novel. The time of buddhisim is about 540 AD.

There aren't no buddhist in the time of Autumn and spring period. (770-475 BC) . Lao Tzu is the same period as confuscious. In fact, they meet each other.Lao-tzu, 570?-490? BC)

http://encarta.msn.com/find/Concise.asp?z=1&pg=2&ti=761555647

Da Mo is at the period of 540 AD. There is a thousand year gap.

Article from encarta:
http://encarta.msn.com/find/concise.asp?mod=1&ti=761552895&page=2#s15

Several important new sects of Buddhism developed in China and flourished there and in Japan, as well as elsewhere in East Asia. Among these, Ch'an, or Zen, and Pure Land, or Amidism, were most important.

Zen advocated the practice of meditation as the way to a sudden, intuitive realization of one's inner Buddha nature. Founded by the Indian monk Bodhidharma, who arrived in China in 520, Zen emphasizes practice and personal enlightenment rather than doctrine or the study of scripture.See Zen.

Instead of meditation, Pure Land stresses faith and devotion to the Buddha Amitabha, or Buddha of Infinite Light, as a means to rebirth in an eternal paradise known as the Pure Land. Rebirth in this Western Paradise is thought to depend on the power and grace of Amitabha, rather than to be a reward for human piety. Devotees show their devotion to Amitabha with countless repetitions of the phrase "Homage to the Buddha Amitabha." Nonetheless, a single sincere recitation of these words may be sufficient to guarantee entry into the Pure Land.

A distinctively Japanese sect of Mahayana is Nichiren Buddhism, which is named after its 13th-century founder. Nichiren believed that the Lotus Sutra contains the essence of Buddhist teaching. Its contents can be epitomized by the formula "Homage to the Lotus Sutra," and simply by repeating this formula the devotee may gain enlightenment.
"

Pak Mei student

06-12-2002, 01:03 AM

At the time of Autumn and spring, martial arts florish like flowers, because of warring states.

"The late Zhou was a turbulent period. To maintain and increase power, state rulers sought the advice of teachers and strategists. This fueled intellectual activity and debate, and intense reappraisal of traditions. Thus the period became known as the time when the ø«undred schools of thought contended.?There were thinkers fascinated by logical puzzles; utopians and hermits who argued for withdrawal from public life; agriculturists who argued that no one should eat who does not plough; military theorists who analyzed ways to deceive the enemy; and cosmologists who developed theories of the forces of nature, including the opposite and complementary forces of yin and yang. The three most influential schools of thought that evolved during this period were Confucianism, Daoism, and Legalism.

Kongfuzi, or Confucius as he is known in the West, was a teacher from the state of Lu (in present-day Shandong Province) who lived in the 6th and 5th centuries BC. Confucius revered tradition and encouraged his disciples to master historical records, music, poetry, and ritual. He tried in vain to gain high office, traveling from state to state with his disciples in search of a ruler who would employ him. Confucius talked repeatedly of his vision of a more perfect society in which rulers and subjects, nobles and commoners, parents and children, and men and women would wholeheartedly accept the parts assigned to them, devoting themselves to their responsibilities to others.

Confucius exalted virtues such as filial piety (reverent respect and obedience toward parents and grandparents), humanity (an unselfish concern for the welfare of others), integrity, and a sense of duty. He redefined the term junzi (gentleman) to mean a man of moral cultivation rather than a man of noble birth. He repeatedly urged his students to aspire to be gentlemen who pursue integrity and duty, rather than petty men who pursue personal gain. Confucius's teachings are known through the Lunyu (Analects), a collection of his conversations compiled by his followers after his death. The eventual success of Confucian ideas owes much to Confucius's followers in the two centuries after his death, particularly to Mencius (371?-289? BC) and Xunzi (300?-235? BC).

Mencius, like Confucius, traveled to various states, offering advice to their rulers. He repeatedly tried to convince them that the ruler who governed benevolently would earn the respect of the people and would unify the realm. Mencius proposed concrete political and financial measures for easing tax burdens and otherwise improving the people's lot. With his disciples and fellow philosophers, he discussed other issues in moral philosophy, arguing strongly, for instance, that human nature was fundamentally good as everyone is born with the capacity to recognize what is right and act upon it.

Xunzi took the opposite view of human nature, arguing that people are born selfish and that it is only through education and ritual that they learn to put moral principle above their own interests. Xunzi stressed the importance of ritual to social and political life, but took a secular view of it. For instance, Xunzi argued that the ruler should pray for rain during a drought because to do so is the traditional ritual, not because it moves Heaven to send rain.

The doctrines of Daoism, the second great school of philosophy that emerged during the Warring States Period, are set forth in the Daodejing (Classic of the Way and Its Power), which is attributed traditionally to Laozi (570?-490? BC), and in the compiled writings of Zhuangzi (369?-286? BC). Both works share a disapproval of the unnatural and artificial. Whereas plants and animals act spontaneously in the ways appropriate to them, humans have separated themselves from the Way (Dao) by plotting and planning, analyzing and organizing. Both texts reject social conventions and call for an ecstatic surrender to the spontaneity of cosmic processes. At the political level, Daoism advocated a return to primitive agricultural communities, in which life could follow the most natural course. Government policy should be one of extreme noninterference, permitting the people to respond to nature spontaneously. The Zhuangzi is much longer than the Daodejing. A literary masterpiece, it is full of tall tales, parables, and fictional encounters between historical figures. Zhuangzi poked fun at people mired in everyday affairs and urged people to see death as part of the natural cosmic processes.

Legalism differed from both Confucianism and Daoism in its narrow focus on statecraft. Thinkers like Han Fei (280?-233? BC) reasoned that the extreme disorders of their day called for new and drastic measures. They rejected the Confucian theory that strong government depended on the moral quality of the ruler and his officials and their success in winning over the people. Rather, they argued, it depended on effective systems of rewards and punishments. To ensure his power, the ruler had to keep his officials in line with strict rules and regulations and his people obedient with predictably enforced laws. "

Pak mei student:p

Hideous

06-12-2002, 04:21 AM

PMS - Let me say this. Do you belive Buddhist doctrine of {[ .....refuse an offer of violence]. It is a lie. The christian in the 1800's say the same to the native indians.

Doctrines are without action, they neither deceive nor enlighten. It is what a person does in response to knowledge of a doctrine that determines the application. Your blatant attack on Christians is an example of hubris and your feeble human intellect cannot grasp the fact that you are in fact ****ing millions of people based upon the actions of a few. Joseph Stalin had no God, hence, no authority save for that of man to answer to. Try reading a little history and not preaching your ignorance so loudly.

PMS - Buddhist advocates virtues, kindness and mercy. Like other religion, they kill other people in the name of religion.

Religions neither kill nor give birth to anyone. It is the interpretation or misinterpretation of a religion’s principles within the realm of application that gives rise to action. No written word is action proper. You are confused and serve as proof that the human intellect is not the best arbiter of life’s difficulties.

PMS - Buddhist does slaughter some people in the name of buddhisim. Have you play the game "shogun"? The warrior monk is used to defend the invaders.

I do not play games, child, I am a man.

PMS - Who determines "the refusal an offer of violence"?

The individual. Life imposes demands directly on the individual.

PMS - Like all the religion, (islam, christian), religion is a very powerful political tool.

Like atheists and agnostics you are hopelessly trapped in the confines of your very small mind. The greatest slaughter and excesses in recorded history are directly attributed to those who served none say their own desires. Try reading the history of the world’s socialist and communist empires. Can you say Gulag? Sure you can

PMS - Why do you think the ching dynasty forbids martial arts, except the taoist? The emperor knows buddhist rebels is using religion to overthown the government. Taoist is working directly to the ching government.

Irrelevant. One group was identified by association with a particular doctrine that suited the needs of the prevailing power elite. That is the whole of the matter.

PMS - If you believe their slogan. Well. All I can say is good for you.

I categorically reject all dogma absent some acceptable form of proof. Slogans are sound bite quality information suitable for those with a weak mind or crippled intellect. I suffer from neither condition.

PMS - Note: I am using this as an example. By no means, I am critizing all the religion. All religion is good, for the development of mankind.

Note: You are very poorly read and way out of your element. For instance, did you know that it is perfectly acceptable to follow Buddhist doctrine as a matter of pure philosophical conviction absent any religious considerations? Try to answer honestly.

As for your question about the below statement.

"The theory in buddhism doesn't coherrent with martial arts. Taoism theory is coherrent with martial arts. "

PMS - Buddhist thoery is not based upon theory of yin and yang. SPM is based on the theory of yin and yang. They have flow and sink. They have right and left. It is matter of expression.

You are, once again, very much mistaken. Yin - Yang is nothing more than a specific expression of extremes. You make an incorrect statement and then in your last sentence indicate that you know better. You desire to quibble with specific terminology when it suits your purpose but reject same when it shows you to be in error. Very, very dishonest of you.

PMS - Read the link I give you.
http://www.seishinryu.org.uk/five.htm

No thanks.

PMS - Note: Due to the broad intrepretation, I only can supply you some information.

Due to your tender years and lack of appreciable experience you can provide me with no information but serve only as a fleeting form of entertainment.

PMS - Five elements is in medical records, since the ancient times.

Now there’s a real profound statement. Try approximately 5000 years rather than hide behind the fact that you really do not know what you are speaking of.

PMS - The application of five element in martial arts means the five important angle in your body.

That’s one interpretation and nothing more.

PMS - Thus, if you cover all the five important angle, you are impenetrable.

A man of vastly superior power or speed will penetrate by destroying your perfectly formed structure on impact or bypassing it completely. You are so very foolish yet your post indicates you are sincere and for that alone I give you credit.

PMS - Pls read my post correctly.

I have. Your naivete coupled with your youthful enthusiasm is refreshing yet humorous.

PMS - Let me ask you this question. All the martial arts do cover all five angles of the body is it not?

I’m hardly in any position to speak to all martial arts. Do you believe yourself to be such an authority and if so please share with us your qualifications?

PMS - When you draw a circle of all the points. When you cover all five angles. indeed, any fist or foot can't penetrate you.
That is in theory.

Your last sentence is the one with appreciable truth value. Now, let me ask you a question. How do you determine whether or not a theory qualifies to become a law, tenet, or principle?

PMS - Plz don't twist my words.

Your mind is twisted quite enough as is.

Cannibalism is unequivocally a valid dynamic for all societies. I am, Hideous

Pak Mei student

06-12-2002, 08:02 AM

ha ha! ha ha!

Hideous,or Sui Fiew, who ever you are.
What a coincident? Sui fiew got banned. Then hideous is in.

So, what You are a student of DR. wong?

You can hide your identity, but you can't hide your words. Sui fiew style and your style are very similar. Both identity uses complicating words for expression. Which is unneccesary.

"Cannibalism is unequivocally a valid dynamic for all societies. I am, Hideous"
"worst form of prejudice is ignorance and with that denile.yeun fen will see it through for us to learn.cannot be controled"

Both of them have knowledge of Chinese history. Both of the identity is chinese without a doubt.

By the way, I never afraid of you in southern forum. It is very enjoyable to watch you slander me, coz, you are mad.

Hideous or sui fiew,
Let's face it. You can't even read the chinese language. You can't write chinese. That proves you a real deal.

I take some courses on herbal medicine, especially on five elements theory.

What prove you are so good? You are not that level. My friend.

Do me a favour, before you embarrass yourself again. Show your qualification, before you chanllenge me.
That way, I will respect you as an academic discussion.

ps.. hideous or sui fiew.
I have another identity in this forum, not as Pak Mei student.

Guess who I am? My switching is definitely better than you.

Pak mei student

:D

Hideous

06-12-2002, 02:53 PM

Meltdown - You are very good at setting up a trap. And you have a very good follow up.

I bow in your direction.

Meltdown - I do not think we are seeing likeui all over again (are we?).

Though he would deny it likeui is in fact the rather out of shape, low skill level SPM practitioner that pounded Dr. Wong. Now you know the truth of the matter.

Meltdown - However, your beef against Wong Sifu is well-taken, if he has disrespected your nam tong long.

I have no beef with Dr. Wong. He is a gentle man, far more of an academic and historian than martial artist. In the past, I found him to be forthright, intelligent, well learned, and a decent human being.

Meltdown - His students on this forum always seem quite respectful.

Which speaks well of his instilling virtues associated with his culture and art.

Meltdown - And if your skill level is what you claim it to be, I for one am interested in your name.

My name is Hideous. Send me a PM as I sometimes go to Flawreedah. If it is convenient I’ll afford you a personal examination of my skill.

Meltdown - Your profile puts you at 34. Is this correct?

As a good Taoist and for the purposes of this forum, yes.

Meltdown - brashness then. So would you now work upon a perceived rift in a family as exhibited in this thread to gain your foothold?

Divisiveness is so easy to manufacture, hardly worth the effort, wouldn’t you agree? The Pak Mei family is far larger than its Elders want to admit. They claim only one other hand as a cousin or sister art and this is clearly incorrect. The ones they claim as cousins are in fact their older brother. Can you name their never mentioned younger brother?

Meltdown - My master would not "suffer indignity". This incidence would be worthless to him, or he would take care of it without telling the world. He would NOT spread talk of it.

Ah yes, … the ways of old, so much more direct, so much more honest, so much more decent, so much more noble. Pity they are but memories being blown about by the winds of time.

Meltdown - Perhaps your belief in "written documents" that "serve as rules" on the subject of ethical truth might be my equivalent to my belief in my master's teachings and my own bibliography.

Not at all very likely, neither your Sifu nor you are all that important relative to the documents I cite to. Please demonstrate for us your sense of mu duk and not elevate either your Sifu or yourself as anything more than a grain of sand on the beach of life. If your Sifu or you do something noteworthy that causes people in a global sense of the word to take notice a century or two from now then your Spirit will know the truth of this matter.

Meltdown - … and martial arts, I apologise for attempting to clarify Pak Mei student's words and your reactions. It is clear that I have no clue what your beliefs are.

No need for anything as drastic or dramatic as a public apology Meltdown, this is the Internet and all things are suspect. You are correct in stating that you have no clue, in fact, you are totally clueless about many things, wouldn’t you agree?

Meltdown - But for your clarification, my screen name is "meltdAwn", in case you might have overlooked THAT.

No Meltdown, I did not overlook that, I simply chose to re-designate you so that your forum name accurately reflected your forum persona.

Cannibalism is unequivocally a valid dynamic for all societies. I am, Hideous

Hideous

06-12-2002, 03:08 PM

PMS - Hideous,or Sui Fiew, who ever you are. What a coincident? Sui fiew got banned. Then hideous is in.
So, what You are a student of DR. wong?

None of the above and did you ever successfully complete the 8th Grade my rather functionally illiterate friend?

PMS - You can hide your identity, but you can't hide your words. Sui fiew style and your style are very similar. Both identity uses complicating words for expression. Which is unneccesary.
Both of them have knowledge of Chinese history. Both of the identity is chinese without a doubt.

You fail utterly at your amateurish attempt at linguistic analysis. Please do not quit your day job as the world economy is sluggish right now.

PMS - Hideous or sui fiew, Let's face it. You can't even read the chinese language. You can't write chinese. That proves you a real deal.

A rather confused series of statements that emerged, undoubtedly, fully developed from your confused mind.

PMS - I take some courses on herbal medicine, especially on five elements theory.

Marvelous, and what professional value is such a thing, I mean, your admittedly fragmentary knowledge?

PMS - What prove you are so good?

In person, my hands, beyond that, difficult to say without knowing what your definition of [so good] is.

PMS - You are not that level. My friend.

Well of course not, my friend. You are whale $hit on the bottom of the ocean and I am a man. Pray tell, why would I even consider lowering myself to your level, my friend?

PMS - Do me a favour, before you embarrass yourself again. Show your qualification, before you chanllenge me.

My credentials are in my hands and cannot be displayed on an electronic Internet forum. Why would I challenge you? Do you not realize that you are no one of any real significance as I am no one of any real significance?

PMS - That way, I will respect you as an academic discussion.

I truly believe that I would be much better off not having your respect. There is something inherently demeaning or degrading about being respected by one such as you. I find the proposition of having you respect me much like I would find the prospect of the honey pot man respecting me

PMS - I have another identity in this forum, not as Pak Mei student.

Good for you and perhaps your new self will utilize spell check in addition to taking some remedial writing courses.

PMS - Guess who I am? My switching is definitely better than you.

Oh golly gee ****, do I have to? Good to read your switching is top echelon so that you now have an accomplishment to point to. Congratulations are most definitely in order.

Cannibalism is unequivocally a valid dynamic for all societies. I am, Hideous

EAZ

06-13-2002, 01:07 AM

Every few months (maybe even weeks) come along brash people who throw invectives around at others and stir the hornet''s nest, and for what reason?

The only thing possible on this forum is discussion. Everything else is vain. Claiming "me best fighter in world you sack of ...." is rather quite pointless. I don't care if "yours is bigger then mine" because in all likelihood I will never see yours so what is the point of bringing it up here?

Sure some people are (always or occasionally) arrogant (I am a)inner disciple, b) true lineage, c) Chinese, d)hakka, e) fighting master, f) master of universe etc...), and some people enjoy playing silly mind games here etc.

And sure sometimes I feel people's ego dripping onto me when they respond (or at least perceive things that way), but to start a futile arguement is of no ones benefit.

But let us seperate the men from the monkeys and get on with what is important here.

This thread started on an interesting topic. It is no longer. Who is responsible for this? Let us then be polite and considerate of others.

Just a bit fed up this morning.
EAZ

tnwingtsun

06-13-2002, 06:03 AM

EAZ,agreed.

PMS-No,he is not one of Dr.Wong's students.

Hideous-You speak of Dr.Wong being "pounded",a few scratches,
a cut and a bruise is hardly a pounding(maybe in your book).

The "Pounding" didn't stop his long time planned vacation to China a few days after this so called "pounding".

Question.
Maybe I misread your post,did you say he insulted the SPM clan?
How?

You do mention some good things about someone I am very close too,in the same breath you.......

Well,your intentions are known only to you.

I only know of one on this forum that is in my school.
My name is Don,I'm the only Don there.

If you're ever in town please introduce yourself,I may gain some hidden insight that I've missed.

Other than that what started out as a deceint thread has turned silly.

Just my two cents.

tnwingtsun

06-13-2002, 06:03 AM

meltdawn

06-13-2002, 06:07 AM

EAZ,

OK, I will take my spanking like a lady. ;) How goes your training? Have you yum cha with Narval recently?

Hide-ous,

"No Meltdown, I did not overlook that, I simply chose to re-designate you so that your forum name accurately reflected your forum persona."

Cool, thanks! Secrets be told, I am a bigger fan of Li Lian Jie that Tae Li. I rented that movie because it showed Jet Li on the cover with no shirt. Man was I ripped off. At least it had guns in it. Did you know we have concealed carry permits in Flawreedah? Check your PMs. Hahahaha..."PMs", that was funny! I kill me!

What was this thread about? Oh, Pak Mei and 5 Elements. Ngoh m hai pak mei pai. Jow la.

sanjia

06-14-2002, 04:00 AM

So what have we learnt thus far on this thread?
That there may or may not be a 'pukka' five element set in the Pak Mei curriculum.
That Dr Wong seems to have had some sort of altercation with a Southern Tong Long practitioner, and that the poster 'hideous' enjoys an argument.

What I would like to know is why did this altercation occur and what were the criteria?

PMS , I don't think that the poster Hideous is 'Sui Fuw' as he is far too articulate.

Hideous, you say "The Pak Mei family is far larger than its Elders want to admit. They claim only one other hand as a cousin or sister art and this is clearly incorrect. The ones they claim as cousins are in fact their older brother. Can you name their never mentioned younger brother?"

Who claims these things? Except for one website that I have seen, where exactly what you say above is indeed claimed, I have never heard or seen anyone else claim them?
You say "They claim only one other hand" and then "The ones they claim". Which is it that is claimed by who and where (excepting the website mentioned) ?
Do you suggest that Lung Ying is Pak Mei's older brother?
Which hand is this younger brother? Not Bak Fu Pai surely?

Mark

Hideous

06-14-2002, 12:09 PM

Tnwingtsun - You speak of Dr.Wong being "pounded",a few scratches, a cut and a bruise is hardly a pounding(maybe in your book).

If you have seen the video, or were present, you know the truth of the matter. The fellow was tossed about like a rag doll and apparently with ease at that. I will not quibble about what does and what does not constitute a pounding. The uncontested outcome speaks for itself.

Tnwingtsun - The "Pounding" didn't stop his long time planned vacation to China a few days after this so called "pounding".

And Mohammed Ali checked out the hospital a day after one of his brutal boxing matches with Smoking Joe to calmly go about living his life. What is your point?

Tnwingtsun - If you're ever in town please introduce yourself,I may gain some hidden insight that I've missed.

A very generous offer, thank you ever so much. If would be good to sit down with your Sifu and at a minimum attempt undo the damage that was done by what can only be described as a very unfortunate incident.

Sanjia - What I would like to know is why did this altercation occur and what were the criteria?

A urinary Olympiad over a mutual project.

Sanjia - Who claims these things?

Sanjia I am surprised at you asking such a thing. Shhh … secrets.

Sanjia - Do you suggest that Lung Ying is Pak Mei's older brother?

Do I, or more to the crux of the matter, do you?

Sanjia - Which hand is this younger brother?

Yet more surprises at how public you are about such matters.

Sanjia - Not Bak Fu Pai surely?

Surely not Sanjia, surely not.

Cannibalism is unequivocally a valid dynamic for all societies. I am, Hideous

mantis108

06-14-2002, 01:24 PM

*Sigh*

To my Bak Mei brothers,

Sorry, Dave, this was a good thread turned sour because of the almighty "Dialectic Tactics" resurface again. We saw that ALL religions, philosophies, logic, etc, crumble at the feet of this talented mind (much like his beloved Socrates). Why hide behind the Hideous mask? Southern Praying Mantis is a great art and so are great many Chinese martial arts which are based on truth and need not a Greek discipline to help reveal it. Truth is truth. Wether it is approached from a Chinese worldview or a Greek worldview makes not particular difference. Except of course when there is an ego involved. That makes you think you have the truer truth than anybody else. I wonder what insights you have from the meeting/conversation between Lao Tze and Confucius? IMHO, Dialectics (in your case) is but the candy coating of pride and prejudice. The sad truth about reaching a supposed higher plateau is that it is cold and lonely yet that is the spot you prefer.
With this note, I shall leave this futile debate or the quest of an ego - there is only one (the great inheritor of the Pai) that knows all, everyone else is but a fool according to your logic. Frankly, it's not my cup of tea.

Mantis108

PS Beware of the traps set by this dialectics charade hosted by Hideous. It is nothing more than a time consuming game.

Hideous

06-14-2002, 02:23 PM

mantis108 - We saw that ALL religions, philosophies, logic, etc, crumble at the feet of this talented mind (much like his beloved Socrates).

You have most obviously posted on the wrong thread confused mantis108. Socrates is generally a male name is it not? Perhaps you are arguing in favor of gay love and are on the wrong forum.

mantis108 - Why hide behind the Hideous mask?

Because I am hideous and you hide behind the name of an insect and [sacred] number for what reason?

mantis108 - Southern Praying Mantis is a great art and so are great many Chinese martial arts which are based on truth and need not a Greek discipline to help reveal it.

Most of us are writing in English with a touch of Chinese now and then but most definitely no Greek. Beyond real Chu Gar Gao I care nothing for SPM. As for Greeks, I have never met any so I have no opinion on them.

mantis108 - Truth is truth.

Wonderfully profound and original statement.

mantis108 - Wether it is approached from a Chinese worldview or a Greek worldview makes not particular difference. Except of course when there is an ego involved.

Would you be so kind as to name the Greek that is participating in this thread? As for the question of ego I ask you – Who would you be without one?

mantis108 - With this note, I shall leave this futile debate …

Ah yes, the one without an ego is a quitter. Thank you for answering my question.

mantis108 - ... Frankly, it's not my cup of tea.

Then drink water, little one, drink water.

mantis108 - PS Beware of the traps set by this dialectics charade hosted by Hideous. It is nothing more than a time consuming game.

PSS Beware of advice given out by an insect with a rather high number attached to his back end that argues in favor of no self and quits.

Cannibalism is unequivocally a valid dynamic for all societies. I am, Hideous

Bolt

06-14-2002, 02:55 PM

"A urinary Olympiad over a mutual project. "

LOL ! Excuse me for breaking out of my background silence, but even lurking... couldn't help but chuckle at this.

sanjia

06-17-2002, 07:46 AM

Hideous - "A urinary Olympiad over a mutual project"

I agree with Bolt, most amusing. Would you say that the systems or the individuals were what was important in the "pounding" stakes, from your viewpoint?

Hideous - "Sanjia I am surprised at you asking such a thing. Shhh … secrets"

I cannot for the life of me understand why there is or ever has been talk of 'secrets' save to create a smokescreen or method of keeping students, so what 'secrets' do you allude to?

Hideous - "Do I, or more to the crux of the matter, do you?"

Well, using the playground rules, I asked you first :-)

Hideous - "Yet more surprises at how public you are about such matters"

OK, so are you surprised at me in particular?, or is it that you are surprised in general? Do you know me?
Why do you think that these matters should be , ahem, 'closed door'?

TenTigers

06-17-2002, 08:15 AM

I was going to post this as another topic, but Sanjia kinda brought it up, so here goes:
Chueng Lai-Chen is said to have named his art Bak Mei P'ai. Before that, it was simply referred to as Ngoh Mei P'ai. Does anyone know of lineages of this art before CLC?

Hideous

06-17-2002, 11:00 AM

Sanjia - Would you say that the systems or the individuals were what was important in the "pounding" stakes, from your viewpoint?

Simply a personal disagreement on the quality of the product on which they both were working. Really very much a shame. It would have been good of Dr. Wong to have memorialized his method for posterity given the man’s lineage.

Sanjia - I cannot for the life of me understand why there is or ever has been talk of 'secrets' save to create a smokescreen or method of keeping students, so what 'secrets' do you allude to?

If I spoke openly of secrets they would no longer be secrets now would they my friend? It is neither my right nor my place to do anything that would adversely impact on the ability of another to earn a living. I do not break rice bowls as a matter of personal practice.

Sanjia - Well, using the playground rules, I asked you first :-)

Fair is fair and therefore I answer, yes. Although, it might be considered more accurate if the Lung Ying Pai were noted and regarded more along the lines of the [primary stock] from which Bak Mei’s physical structures were crafted. How the actual structures are formed [energy] within the respective systems is another matter all together, would you not agree?

Sanjia - OK, so are you surprised at me in particular? or is it that you are surprised in general?

Either or, or both, it does not really matter.

Sanjia - Do you know me?

A relative term to [know] would you not agree? Without a clearly defined context I cannot possibly answer the question.

Sanjia - Why do you think that these matters should be , ahem, 'closed door'?

From a purely personal perspective, I do not. Secrets come with a price and that is that the law of entropy quickly sets in and the inevitable and irreversible spiral towards the demise of the system occurs. Since this is a personal perspective I have no authority or desire to impose it on anyone at any time. We each make choices regarding this matter and the consequences are as individual as the choices made. I have always been as open and forthright regarding my hand as conditions permitted. Sometimes the political reality of the matter took priority over my personal preferences. For the last several years I have been free to do as I please with my hand and so any one I accept as a student goes away with far more on their plate than they can possibly carry or eat. No one goes away hungry. This is merely a personal choice, however, one made in response to reason. Either the hand is transmitted in its entirety or it dies. Either each succeeding generation surpasses that of the one before it or the hand dies. Systemic entropy will not be denied so the hand is either growing and flourishing, or it is stagnant and about to reorient towards demise, or is it in fact dying at that very moment. The choice is ours and I have made mine. I choose life.

Cannibalism is unequivocally a valid dynamic for all societies. I am, Hideous

Bolt

06-17-2002, 11:51 AM

Originally posted by TenTigers
I was going to post this as another topic, but Sanjia kinda brought it up, so here goes:
Chueng Lai-Chen is said to have named his art Bak Mei P'ai. Before that, it was simply referred to as Ngoh Mei P'ai. Does anyone know of lineages of this art before CLC?

Though I have seen claim to someone other than Chueng Lai Chen named the style, that belief seems to be the consensus. Regarding the lineage prior to CLC - I've only seen one lineage. I have seen no disagreement about lineage from Bak Mei to CLC. Any variations or discrepencies are from that point forward.
Anyone here seen avariation through the first 4 generations ?

fiercest tiger

06-17-2002, 04:24 PM

I have heard that pak mei monk learnt at the white tiger hall in the wutang temple?

maybe a connection of bak fu pai and bak mei pai what do you think?:)

:D FT

sanjia

06-18-2002, 01:12 AM

fiercest tiger : "I have heard...."

You know, an awful lot of your posts begin with this phrase.

Just a comment.

EAZ

06-18-2002, 01:16 AM

While CLC is the rightful heir and propagator of PM it is IMHO completely absurd to think that he is the only lineage in existence.

Is there only one 5th generation student? No.
Only one 6th generation student, no.

Is there only one official 5th generation heir? yes, his son who is still alive.

Of course there were other people who practiced PM before CLC (unless you are of the opinion that CLC made up PM from scratch).
I have been told that there were a lot since these people taught in Temples, many monks would have access to the teachings. It would have been one of these monks who went to Vietnam that I have told about. I think that another practioner, an Englishman who goes by the name of Robert (he lurks here but I will not give out his full name out of discression) and who is close to PM HQ in Hong Kong is actually right now in mainland Chin will a delegation of HK PM people looking into other branches that are not CLC. If I understood him correctly on this point then this is yet another interesting direction. Maybe Pak Mei student is aware of this trip.

The key thing to remember as FT and Kei Lun pointed out and as I understand it is that PM is an internal system of generating power, that is what CLC leanrt as well as some forms. He then went back towards all the forms he learnt in the past and applied these principles of power generation towards and modified the forms.

EAZ

sanjia

06-18-2002, 01:26 AM

Hideous - "If I spoke openly of secrets they would no longer be secrets now would they my friend? It is neither my right nor my place to do anything that would adversely impact on the ability of another to earn a living. I do not break rice bowls as a matter of personal practice."

LOL, true enough, but I have a feeling that you know where I was coming from.

Hideous - "How the actual structures are formed [energy] within the respective systems is another matter all together, would you not agree?"

I would.

Hideous - "Fair is fair and therefore I answer, yes. Although, it might be considered more accurate if the Lung Ying Pai were noted and regarded more along the lines of the [primary stock] from which Bak Mei’s physical structures were crafted."

There is something here for sure, exactly what it is and how it came to be what it is, well, who is ever going to answer that one with any authority.
Personally I think lines are drawn too readily, but there you are.

Hideous - "A relative term to [know] would you not agree? Without a clearly defined context I cannot possibly answer the question."

That almost answers my question.

Hideous - "I choose life."

Indeed.

fiercest tiger

06-18-2002, 02:29 AM

I heard that is correct!:)

just my answer...lol:D

Bolt

06-18-2002, 02:49 PM

per EAZ
"While CLC is the rightful heir and propagator of PM it is IMHO completely absurd to think that he is the only lineage in existence. "

"I have been told that there were a lot since these people taught in Temples, many monks would have access to the teachings. It would have been one of these monks who went to Vietnam that I have told about."

I am only aware of one (can provide a link with history and lineage, but I believe it *does*refer to CLC), but I, too, think it's naive to believe the Bak Mei line is so thin.

" I think that another practioner, an Englishman who goes by the name of Robert (he lurks here but I will not give out his full name out of discression) and who is close to PM HQ in Hong Kong is actually right now in mainland Chin will a delegation of HK PM people looking into other branches that are not CLC. If I understood him correctly on this point then this is yet another interesting direction. Maybe Pak Mei student is aware of this trip. "

They should be able to discover info. I'd be interested in their results. Would they be going to Canton, Foshan ?

Good to see civil exchange of information and discussion with substance.

Yum Cha

06-18-2002, 06:57 PM

So, Pak Mei consists of internal components and external components. It consists of the forms of Cheung Lai Cheun's lifes learning, and the forms learned specifically at the temple under the tutelage of the monk, more or less, on a fundamental basis.

He combined all the components and called it Pak Mei. True enough?

Therefore:

We know the forms of his life's learning exist in other lineages, and they have added a piece to the puzzle.

We know the internal power generation existed before, and thus may be widespread, and they have added a piece to the puzzle.

We know the patterns learned at the temple could have been taught to other people, and thus may be more widespread, and they have added a piece to the puzzle.

This begs the question, is a component of the whole equal to the whole?

Theoretically, the fact that Cheung Lai Cheun applied one set of lessons to another set of lessons and thus created a new base of knowledge, which he mastered and named, means that there can be no other lineage, he is the first vessel with the complete knowledge.

Just to complicate the issue, does anybody fundamentally agree with me that Kung Fu travels through the Man and not the Style?

Back to reality...

However, what I think we are talking about is the search for other heirs between the "legendary" Pak Mei and Cheung Lai Cheun, carrying the knowledge taught to Cheung Lai Cheun at the temple by the monks.

Nevertheless, it would be an incredibly interesting exercies to find out what happened in 2nd to 4th generations.... Just as long as we don't end up a distant relative of Tae Bo. That would be more than I could bear....

Ao Qin

06-18-2002, 10:20 PM

Hello fellow threaders, Here's a new take on the question of "purity" (Bak Mei or otherwise).

According to Hegelian Dialectics (sp?), in Bak Mei the thesis condition could be the Hakka Fist (a.k.a. Lam Tong Long, Chu Ga, etc.) he grows up with. For whatever reason, CLC rebels, creating the anti-thesis, to the hard, conventional style - the internal, chi-gung style he calls "Bak Mei". This creates a synthesis of the opposing principles, and LO, we have the modern White Eyebrow Style.

In case anyone thinks I'm criticizing the Art, I am most assuredly not. Lam Yiu Kwai did the same with Lung Ying (a root village art, plus a chi-gung method). The YKM Sifu did the same, by taking BM, and combining it with a mysterious "internal art". My own Sifu(s) did the same thing - and I've had four (a modest number, at my age). One combined a Chinese Art with and Indonesian Art, one combined an Indonesian Art with a Japanese Art, one combined a Kwangtung Village Art with a Hakka Art, and one combined Tai Chi with a Hakka Art. Everyone has (at least) two teachers - everyone seems to combine their arts - sometimes consciously, sometimes unconsciously. The "Art" changes, with every generation. If it doesn't, it's already dead (stagnant waters cannot contain the coils of a dragon)!

In fact, probably (assuredly) everyone who practices kung fu on this board has done (or will do), the same thing. No one has only one teacher / Art for life. Cheung Lai Cheun was no different. Was he a true Master? Without doubt.

Unfortunately, many of us are guilty of taking an "essentialist" stance in the martial-arts, assuming there is only one pure and unadulterated essence transmitted within the "traditional" art they teach. I'm no advocate however, of monkeying with a traditional formulae with no prior mastery.

Anyway my ethereal friends, I haven't ranted for awhile, and I felt like it tonight. Hope it wasn't all blather and nonsense!

Cheers - Ao Qin

fiercest tiger

06-18-2002, 10:41 PM

Big UP for ao qin! hehehe very true,:)

FT

EAZ

06-19-2002, 12:36 AM

Originally posted by Bolt

They should be able to discover info. I'd be interested in their results. Would they be going to Canton, Foshan ?

Good to see civil exchange of information and discussion with substance.

Don't know.

EAZ

06-19-2002, 12:42 AM

Originally posted by Yum Cha
So, Pak Mei consists of internal components and external components. It consists of the forms of Cheung Lai Cheun's lifes learning, and the forms learned specifically at the temple under the tutelage of the monk, more or less, on a fundamental basis.

He combined all the components and called it Pak Mei. True enough?

Therefore:

We know the forms of his life's learning exist in other lineages, and they have added a piece to the puzzle.

We know the internal power generation existed before, and thus may be widespread, and they have added a piece to the puzzle.

We know the patterns learned at the temple could have been taught to other people, and thus may be more widespread, and they have added a piece to the puzzle.

This begs the question, is a component of the whole equal to the whole?

Theoretically, the fact that Cheung Lai Cheun applied one set of lessons to another set of lessons and thus created a new base of knowledge, which he mastered and named, means that there can be no other lineage, he is the first vessel with the complete knowledge.

Just to complicate the issue, does anybody fundamentally agree with me that Kung Fu travels through the Man and not the Style?

Back to reality...

However, what I think we are talking about is the search for other heirs between the "legendary" Pak Mei and Cheung Lai Cheun, carrying the knowledge taught to Cheung Lai Cheun at the temple by the monks.

Nevertheless, it would be an incredibly interesting exercies to find out what happened in 2nd to 4th generations.... Just as long as we don't end up a distant relative of Tae Bo. That would be more than I could bear....

Well said, I think you just about summed up my view of things.

The only comment I have is that a true Grand Master, who has gone way beyond the actual style or styles he has learnt is what is more important, than the style itself so I would agree wholehartedly with your point of view that the man is more important than the style.

jonlucas

06-19-2002, 05:59 AM

EAZ, Yum Cha, and Ao Qin

Good Posts! Something intelligent to read.

Tae Bo reference was pretty funny too :D

Sui

06-20-2002, 12:37 PM

well observed ao qin,and i hope that your"FREINDS"take a good look.

pray speak they are quiet?

family?"The "Art" changes, with every generation. If it doesn't, it's already dead (stagnant waters cannot contain the coils of a dragon)! "-------- do they indeed?from which family(s)?you must of had some experience of this?eg md's si-fu's family???

but never the less i commend you with that post and hope it leads to many of your freinds not to be "stagnant"as you say?

"freinds", you see there is a way forward by taking a few steps back,be suprised to what else comes next,stop and you'll sink....

ao has shown the way-----good for him!

Sui

06-20-2002, 12:41 PM

so with that did the five ele's come from chong li tchan?and i mean directly?

is it a form as such?

i kept away from this subject hopeing some-one like ao would spark,and it has!

Yum Cha

06-20-2002, 05:38 PM

Originally posted by Sui
so with that did the five ele's come from chong li tchan?and i mean directly?

is it a form as such?

Speaking from my limited exposure to the topic, we have pretty well established that the 5 elements is a fundamental Taoist concept/principle and it can be found in common references such as the I Ching (old or new, I'm not sure which is better) and acupuncture or associated medical texts.

What of course we're missing, the key to the puzzle, is the way that GM Cheung Lai Cheun "interpreted" it into the art. As the Hakka style bore his character, as the "Pak Mei" bore his character, so must have the interpretation of the 5 elements. No small missing key indeed.

Is there a pattern? Well, some say yes, some say no, most say I dunno. I've heard it was more of a "telling" than a form.

I have trouble believeing that it is pattern of a series of combinations that bring death. That element is already built into the repetitive training in the forms for any student to seek. Now, perhaps a focusing of the knowledge available to the student already through past training? That makes a bit more sense. Another layer? The layer that teaches you how to attack vitalities.

Then again, is it perhaps a chi-gung training to strengthen your own vitalities? Perhaps that's why some have a pattern, whereas some don't? Could it be a hybrid of both, build and destroy? Lots of possibilities I suppose.

Perhaps its one of those things that might have been lost in stagnant waters....

I know many of you know a lot more about this kind of Pak Mei than I do, I'm just putting out a bit of guesswork, does it make sense to anybody?

Ao Qin

06-20-2002, 07:45 PM

Hi, "my friends" (?!?),

Maybe the question isn't; "is there a 5 Element Form in Bak Mei?",

but rather;

"which form within the Bak Mei curriculum is considered (or refered to) as the "5 Element Form?".

Just food for thought.

Sui

06-21-2002, 02:50 AM

yes ao you can answer that question too.you are not wrong?
but you missed out the famous"CLC"in relation to this 5 elements.....also what the chinese name anyone?it'll be intresting to see the translation of it;)

fiercest tiger

06-21-2002, 04:01 AM

wasnt it ng hung mor? :confused:

Sui

06-21-2002, 06:23 PM

hey f.t,are you good?
and what does it suggest?

fiercest tiger

06-21-2002, 07:15 PM

well depends on the written translation maybe 5 element rubbing or 5 element devil/evil?

my guangdong ah is sui sui! :)

DrLightWind

04-18-2006, 08:36 AM

Sui

04-28-2006, 02:56 AM

how about this for a recent update-inthem days it was peking and the 5 element theory wasn't concieved there so why would it return there?
i can tell you where it died never to surface again however karma is a delightful word (implectiontion) isn't it?

lol

Buby

04-29-2006, 06:02 PM

Sui,

Whats good bro? How have you been?

So bro, if you don't mind...where did it die at? Also, when you say peking are you talking about the city? Pardon my lil understanding.

Take care bro,

Buby

Sui

04-30-2006, 05:06 AM

brother bubsta how are you?

a change to Vegan diet tantalises the mind my young si-hing-try the fat rice noodle i can make it very tasty indeed.lol

i do mind!!it died sometime ago,the place of the 5 elements of course.lol
biejing pronounced bekging was called Peking by the gwai lo,but pronounced by the incignificant china man biejing so all the western maps pre 80's were printed peking.
the idea was born in a very small village where the li got pui people were raised.

i could remember you showing a branch lee gar kune to me once,and i telling you that it was cantonese and not hak-ga,well guess what? its same principal here to do with the 5 elements.
to my true knowledge,clc's sons did not know mang fu only one that died at an early age.so i ask would ng hung mor be named ng fatc mor shui???hahahaha

later,keep easy buby;)

X-Warrior

05-03-2006, 07:47 AM

I'm from Miami
and now here in Beijing learning the 5 Elemen Palm Qi Kung from my teacher.
Appears to be the form is different from you guys are describing. :confused:
It's based on TCM 5 element theory and focusing on the meridians,
simple forms for each.

Anybody out there with a recent update etc.
I could learn it from near to Miami?

The understanding of the five element principle becomes very important when studying the human body from the Chinese anatomical point of view and especially if you are already studying Dim Mak. The theory plays a key role in understanding the relationship of the points on the meridian systems with each of the organs (notably the five Shu points), the relation of each of the Zang-Fu organs with the others they are directly/indirectly affecting (interpromoting, interacting and overacting, and counteracting), as well as the Chi cycling through each of these - what time of the day and where it is most intense.

Of course the study of it is more complex but the five element theory is a very important subject in it; I recommend everyone to have a clear and thorough understanding of it if you are taking your art to higher levels.

-X-