Traditional training methods

[SevenStar]

What do you guy do at your school? No, not red sand palm, jade tree, gecko crawling or any of the other things shown in the Kung Fu History, Philosohy and technique book, (someone had a post asking about those) but things like kung lek demonstrated in his article, arm boxing, stance training, etc...

[dragontounge2]

We do pole training, ring training, iron palm, sand conditioning. And 10 min under water hold form.

[SevenStar]

10 min under water? can you go into detail on that one?

[dragontounge2]

Well There is a large pool/ tank of water. there are two little latch things in the bottom. The process is you swim to the bottom and insert your feet in to the latches so you dont float to the top. Then you practice forms and punches. This helps with breathing, strength, and endurance.

[diego]

Usually i just jog the freeway, with Mac's and 18Wheelers Strapped to my scrot's.
Depends how my stomach feels when I get up Though!.
Peace

[TenTigers]

we do alot of stance training, with a pole across the legs, lion dance footwork first, with deep stances, then lion dance-amazing for stamina, waist, hips, shoulders, power generation. sam-sing dar-arm conditioning, all reaction drills are extracted from the forms, as well as fighting applications-extracted totally from the sets.(we actually USE our gung-fu when we fight, not kickboxing) Eight pieces of Brocade in the warm-ups, chi-gung, meditation.

[IronFist]

My traditional training methods are so secret and traditional that I can't tell you about them.

Sorry :D

IronFist

[yu shan]

Rock on TenTigers! What Chinese discipline are you associated with? I relate with the lion dance leg work, and totally agree with your fighting approach. It`s nice to here tradition in CMA.

[SevenStar]

cool. Keep em coming

[Shadow Dragon]

For Strength training.

I strap either weights on and work my Forms, you want them to move a bit(similar to using rings, etc).
Or hold weights while doing the Form.

Lots of standing, single movement drills, and Qi-Gong exercises.

For weapon training I user Weapons that are about twice the weight of the actual weapon

And most important of al:

Practice all forms at half the normal speed, with and without additional weights.

Peace.

[dezhen2001]

When we train in class, generally we just do a lot of chi sau, theoretical and practical work... but the training we do in our own time tends to be a LOT of Siu Lim Tao practise. Generally anything form 1/2 an hour plus, which is darn hard work :p Also i'm trying to work on the basics of turning and stepping, juen ma, huen ma, biu ma... I also do things like SLT standing on one leg etc. to build up my root.

Qigong wise i just train hard qigong as i've been taught. Right now 2 bricks and a handy wall or tree trunk are my only training aids :D That builds us enough tendon and muscle strength, so don't need to do anything else... i also do some horse stance and zhan zhuang training as well as soft qigong whenever i can :)

david

[dragontounge2]

We also have two jump off a 2 story rock and land in a perfect ding bo stance.

[TenTigers]

Yu Shan-'c'mon, can't ya tell? Horse stance, Lion Dance, Forearm conditioning, hei-gung? Can it be anything BUT Hung-Ga??!!!

[yu shan]

Good answer friend! :)

[Lung Hu Pai]

We do horse stance training, I Chin Ching, Burning Buddha Palm, and Da Sum Sing, and other stance and chi kung work.

[SevenStar]

Burining Budha Palm? What's that?

[dre]

We do all kinds of different conditioning exercises at my school. These exerciese include , but are not limited to, the following : 2 man drills where you hit forearms/shins , Sand drills, strikes into the wall , balance drills on a wooden beam (sometimes done as a two man drill, while striking arms).

In other words theres a lot of conditioning out there.

[yu shan]

Geez Dragontounge2, you ought to be in a Special Ops. program.

Our folks are expected to "pre-stretch" before class. We then stretch as a class together, this is a work out in itself. Remember, I`m in Tennessee. We then condition the arms (numerous two person hand drills) on to kicking drills(same as mentioned before) then single side Mantis drills. Followed by the two person to the Mantis drills. On to Mantis fighting theory ( more drills) yet put into real fighting (as done in Asia) Then forms work (single side) repetition,repetition,repetition! Then the two person to the forms. Note: Exercises pulled out of the forms, and two person exercises also practiced. End of evening is more conditioning. Combination of arms and legs, mostly leg against leg. This is an ordinary class, sometimes we spice it up!

[reemul]

We do Keo-kin, KamehA-mehA wave, this is only for the Saiyans though.

[David Jamieson]

reemul, kameha-meha , wasn't he a Hawaiin king?

Otherwise, training methods I learned from Kung fu study that are considered "traditional" or "old style" are Ring training, Iron Palm, Nei Gong (Internal strength exercises of Shaolin), Chi Kung (Qigong-breath work-specifically relating to shaolin), static stance training, box stepping, forms, calesthenics and two man drills such as star blocking, push hands (tai chi style and tiger style), Listening energy exercises, meditation and a few more. I also use a steel upright pole for star blocking training when I am without a partner. Weapons such as sword sets or heavy long weapon sets are quite the workout as well.

There is also heavy bag work, speed bag work and other more traditional western methods associated with pugilistic arts.

There is a terrific variety of exercises found in Kung Fu style training that would appear quite bizarre to a regular workout type of person. "Playing with the pearl" is one that gets heads turning in the corner park. :D

peace

[greendragon]

KungLek, glad to hear you list listening energy and meditation, an important area often missed in many schools.

[reemul]

only the DBZ fans will catch it I suppose

[SevenStar]

I am dragon ball fan #1. I think I actually am part saiya-jin

[Lung Hu Pai]

Hey Sevenstar,
The Buddha Palm is a soft exercise we do to concentrate chi in the palms so that we can eventually learn to project it. It's about a 10 minute exercise.

[SevenStar]

how long should it to fully develop? I'd imagine it would vary from person to person.

[Lung Hu Pai]

Hey Sevenstar,
sorry for the delay in replying. It does vary from person to person. After a few months of practice, though, you can feel some kind of force getting stronger and stronger and coming off your palm. My Sifu says that after 5-6 months, you should be able to move a piece of paper attached to a paper clip from a string from 2-3 feet away. The only thing is that you have to do it every single day or you'll lose the effects. I've been a slacker when it comes to this exercise. I'm going to start it today though. If you're intersted, I can let you know how it goes in the next few weeks and months.
p.s. I know this sounds like one of those really esoteric things, but it's true from when I used to practice it.

[chingei]

Originally posted by Lung Hu Pai
Hey Sevenstar,
The Buddha Palm is a soft exercise we do to concentrate chi in the palms so that we can eventually learn to project it. It's about a 10 minute exercise.


do they give ya magazines and stuff, or do you just use your imagination?

[Lung Hu Pai]

hey chingei,
I know a lot of people are skeptical about chi and whatnot and I did say that it does sound esoteric. But I know what I've felt myself and seen. I saw my Sifu put out a stick of incense from about 10-15 feet away. My buddy who takes it with me saw a demo too, just so that he could show us that it wasn't bs. But personally, please don't try to ridicule me and question my intelligence because it's stupid and childish. I don't post much, so don't bother calling me a troll either; thats even worse. If you want, I can give you the info for my Sifu. Thanks, Azar.

[SevenStar]

Definitely let me know how it goes. I've always been interested in that type of thing, and I've seen some weird and unexplainable stuff in my day, so I'm generally open minded.

[chingei]

Originally posted by Lung Hu Pai
please don't try to ridicule me and question my intelligence because it's stupid and childish. .

an excellent sentence!

[SevenStar]

:rolleyes:

[GGL]

We warm up with some Chang Style Tai Chi and then jump into stance work.. usually bout 25 min of this... then we do belt cracking (Shuai Chiao guys will know what i'm talkin bout).. this is for endurance.. we have a group of sets or we do free style dependin who is there. Then we will do forms.. in changes from Shuai Chiao open hand forms to Shaolin Longfist to White Crane.. dependin on the mood of the instrictor... after that we will pull out the mats and practice falls and then jump into throw practice and finish it up with a little wrestling or kick punch... dependin who has any energy left... oh by the way this can be broken up with a few trips to the bathroom to spew chunks.. I know from experience.. in Tx it tends to get really F'in hot and overheating is common.... not that i like it and all, but nothin some water can't fix:D :D

latta

[fa_jing]

Sil Lim Tao on one leg.

-FJ

[simon_peter]

Stance training for 15-20, footwork training for 10 (front leg stance, hop, cross stance, horse stance, hop, one leg stance, knee stance, hop to fonrt leg stance, repeat), forms for 15; this is the warmup.

Then, wooden dummy, 3 star blocks/conditioning, additional forms work, 2 man drills (technique and conditioning), qi gong, and 'smack with bat' (I'm poor on terminology - this is a hard qi gong exercise), as the sifu sees fit.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by simon_peter


Then, wooden dummy, 3 star blocks/conditioning, additional forms work, 2 man drills (technique and conditioning), qi gong, and 'smack with bat' (I'm poor on terminology - this is a hard qi gong exercise), as the sifu sees fit.

Could it be arm banging you're speaking about. I friggin' LOVE arm banging. We make a game of it by trying bang hard enough to "bounce" the other guy out.

If you've ever played it like this you probably know exactly what I mean by Bounce, LOL

Sounds like a solid program SP, I like it.

[LaterthanNever]

This is level 5 before one qualifies for the sifu training program:

40 minutes of sun punches
40 mantis pushups
400 frog jumps
2000 fight jumps
50 bridge push ups
100 fingertip wheelbarrow walks
100 single leg squats
40 handstand pushups
100 centipede jumps

(there are other physical fitness components which are numerous but I don't have the handbook in front of me and I'm typing this from memory)

Ironbody training 3
8 stances 10 minutes each

Application of the sets(2 man)

Li pi
Xiao Fen che
Da fen che
7 hands
Lan Jie
Zhai Yao

simon_peter: is the "smack w/ bat" akin to iron body/iron forearm training in your mantis?

[pazman]

Yesterday I had a typical (and traditional) training routine:

Jump rope
Baduanjin
Shendun
Yangwotuiju
Yingla
Yijingjing
Yaotui

;)

[EarthDragon]

laterthannever
there are things missing in your list, like the applications joint locks all the medicine 8 brocade qigong, candle blow out etc etc but yes I agree the phsyical fitness numbers are ridiculous Shyun allowed me to do half because it was such a long day, we went like 7 and half hours for my test, thank God after the frog jumps begins the push ups portion are like 3 sets of 100? or something like that.. yeah right.
Im glad i di it when i was young

[EarthDragon]

sorry forgot to answer the question. we do most everything traditional including stances iron palm training qigong, dynamic tension exercises etc etc we even bow coming in and leaving kwoon, something that over looked nowadays

[LaterthanNever]

ED,

Yes..I'm going by memory. There are some things I omitted

[EarthDragon]

gotcha, yeah its long list. I forgot who did you train under you may have answered but I cant remember for the life of me, are you still training

[GoldenBrain]

A typical day at the Kwoon...

The first half of our 2 hour class is conditioning and the second half is either forms, techniques or sparring depending on the day, which is on a rotating schedule. Forms, technique and sparring are self explanatory so I'll just break down the conditioning.

200 - 1000 jumping jacks.
100 - 200 various knuckle, palm and mantis type pushups.
100 - 200 sit-ups, crunches and or other abdominal conditioning.
50 or so reverse crunches or "super mans" as we called them.
100 - 200 Horse stance squats, lunges or other leg burners.
100 forward and 100 backward shoulder rotations and then hold them out until it burns really good.
Lots of stretching.
Wall sitting with thighs parallel to the ground for 5 min or more. At this point most new students have all but collapsed and the veterans are shaky legged and only a few are good to go for some more.

We then break for a drink and then get back for some more conditioning such as Iron Body or Iron Palm work, dragon crawling, duck walking, crab walking, rolls, break falls and several other crazy things that Sifu comes up with.

Then onto forms, techniques or sparring.

I usually follow a good workout with some chi work and then a tall glass of apple juice which helps to move the lactic acid out of the muscles and a good meal. After belt tests or rough sparring nights I will soak in a bath of hot water, apple cider vinegar and epsom salts. The ratio I use is 3 parts epsom salts, 1 part apple cider vinegar.

Edit: I forgot to mention focus pads and heavy bag work. On our sparring days we sometimes break the Kwoon up into 3 zones for 3 mins each, first being the heavy bag, then to the grappling area then to the standup. Many non martial artists just don't get how taxing 9 minutes of all out exertion is on the body and when you do it over and over again during a sparring class it's just a gut buster. I love it!

[YouKnowWho]

The following is a 100% TCMA training method.

- Your left hand grab on your opponent's right wrist.
- Your right hand grab on his left wrist.
- You raise up his right arm.
- You pull down his left arm.
- You slide in and strike your right shoulder on his chest.

[Robinhood]

Calisthenics can be done at home on your own time, classes should be for interaction between students which Leeds to corrections and questions of application interaction etc....

[Kellen Bassette]

Calisthenics can be done at home on your own time, classes should be for interaction between students which Leeds to corrections and questions of application interaction etc....

Like a discussion around a bridge table? :rolleyes:

Did you ever notice at schools that don't do calisthenics, almost everyone is out of shape? It's almost like they don't workout at home and go to that class because they won't have to break a sweat there either...

[YouKnowWho]

Like a discussion around a bridge table? :rolleyes:

Did you ever notice at schools that don't do calisthenics, almost everyone is out of shape? It's almost like they don't workout at home and go to that class because they won't have to break a sweat there either...

I once jointed in a YMCA Karate class. The instructor always started his class with sit up, push up, running around the room, .... I asked that instructor, "Why do we have to do this? I can do this at home." He said, "Most people don't do this at home." I then found a basic difference in training.

Some people

- come to school to "learn" and go home to "train".
- come to school to "train" and go home to "rest".

When

- someone asks, "How many times do you train weekly?"
- another person asks, "How many times do you train daily?"

These 2 persons definitely don't belong to the same page.

[Kellen Bassette]

I once jointed in a YMCA Karate class. The instructor started with sit up, push up, running around the room, .... I asked that instructor, "Why do we have to do this? I can do this at home." He said, "Most people don't do this at home." I then find a basic difference in training.

Some people

- come to school to "learn" and go home to "train".
- come to school to "train" and go home to "rest".

I always thought the time would be better spent training technique, but the reality is, if you aren't doing those types of exercises at class; your going to end up with all the lazy people who don't train at all outside of class.

I've also heard from instructors before, "we shouldn't have to do sit ups and push ups in class, but most people won't do them at home."

I think the better approach is a longer class to accommodate the workout. It weeds out the lazy people who will then go do internal only and talk about how they don't need to spar, condition, fight or ever test themselves to know they are deadly masters.

[YouKnowWho]

It weeds out the lazy people who will then go do internal only and talk about how they don't need to spar, condition, fight or ever test themselves to know they are deadly masters.
The easiest solution is to ask your students to do this partner drills as many time as you want them to do.

http://imageshack.us/a/img208/2400/singleleg.jpg

My 1st school used to be a Kempo Karate school before I took over. Next door of that school was a topless bar. Before that it was a bowling alley, and before that it was TKD master Jhoon Rhee's 1st TKD school in Austin, Texas. The topless bar owner told me that the Kempo instructor who taught there before used to ask his students to stand in horse stance, he then went to next door to have a drink.

[Robinhood]

Like a discussion around a bridge table? :rolleyes:

Did you ever notice at schools that don't do calisthenics, almost everyone is out of shape? It's almost like they don't workout at home and go to that class because they won't have to break a sweat there either...


It depends on the level you are at, beginners need a raw raw person to tell them what to do, like early schooling, advanced people know their goals and can progress on their own.

Being in great shape does not dictate effectiveness , but is more of a beginner thing because they don't know anything or can't do anything yet on their own,, so exercising them makes them feel like they accomplished something, even though they didn't learn anything.( martial art jazzercise )

[Kellen Bassette]

It depends on the level you are at, beginners need a raw raw person to tell them what to do, like early schooling, advanced people know their goals and can progress on their own.

Being in great shape does not dictate effectiveness , but is more of a beginner thing because they don't know anything or can't do anything yet on their own,, so exercising them makes them feel like they accomplished something, even though they didn't learn anything.( martial art jazzercise )

Well, a motivated person will work on whatever he knows, beginner or not. An unmotivated person won't do a whole lot out of class; even if he's "advanced."

Exercising is accomplishing something. If your stronger, more agile, have better cardio than before; you will be a better martial artist and more likely to be able to use whatever you learn.

Kung Fu is a skill achieved through hard work. I don't know how you can have Kung Fu without hard work.

[GoldenBrain]

Personally I think conditioning is everything in a fight/sparring. Sure, you need a well rounded personal inventory of skills and techniques but if you have no gas then you're in for a very short and painful ride.

[Kellen Bassette]

Personally I think conditioning is everything in a fight/sparring. Sure, you need a well rounded personal inventory of skills and techniques but if you have no gas then you're in for a very short and painful ride.


Gassing in a fight is one of the worst and most humbling experiences in martial arts.

[GoldenBrain]

Gassing in a fight is one of the worst and most humbling experiences in martial arts.

That is no lie my friend.

[YouKnowWho]

if you have no gas then ...

That's my definition of Qi. When you move in combat speed and still be able to breath comfortably, you have Qi, otherwise, you don't.

[Robinhood]

Well, a motivated person will work on whatever he knows, beginner or not. An unmotivated person won't do a whole lot out of class; even if he's "advanced."

Exercising is accomplishing something. If your stronger, more agile, have better cardio than before; you will be a better martial artist and more likely to be able to use whatever you learn.

Kung Fu is a skill achieved through hard work. I don't know how you can have Kung Fu without hard work.

It depends on how you define hard work, if you only define hard work as breathing hard and sweating a lot, then it would be easy, but like in life, there is more to it than just sweating and breathing hard.

Training smart or efficiently , getting the most bang for your buck, developing something that is not dependent of having to be physical strong to make work which then can be added to indefinitely.

There is nothing wrong with being fit, but it is not a skill, only a condition, if you depend on that or rely on that as your skill , when you get older you will not have much that you have retained from all that hard work . Depending on only conditioning would be like adding money to a bag with a hole in it, eventually the money will escape faster than you can add it.

[GoldenBrain]

That's my definition of Qi. When you move in combat speed and still be able to breath comfortably, you have Qi, otherwise, you don't.

That is the goal fo sho.

Here's my personal story of the night... I normally eat really well however last week I overloaded my spaghetti squash with too much red sauce which caused such bad heartburn with accompanied cold sweats that I thought I was having a heart attack. Of course I went to the ER because that's one thing you really shouldn't wait on. Everything turned out great but as a precaution my Dr. recommended I have a follow up stress test since I'm 41 just to be sure all was well. Now to the cardio part (sorry, I'm long winded).

My cardio was so good that it took about 40 minutes of running up hill on that freaking treadmill while talking the whole time to the nurse just to reach my target which was 179 over something and a pulse rate of 152. I stayed at 130 to 140 pulse rate until about minute 35 and then the treadmill maxed out it's incline and speed and a few minutes later, finally 152. Without a great workout plan and lots of cardio I would never have been able to do this. I'm very thankful to say the least. At rest my BP is 116 over 69 and pulse rate in the 50's. So, the moral here is don't forget to work on the cardio, and don't use to much red sauce.

[-N-]

The following is a 100% TCMA training method.

- Your left hand grab on your opponent's right wrist.
- Your right hand grab on his left wrist.
- You raise up his right arm.
- You pull down his left arm.
- You slide in and strike your right shoulder on his chest.

This type of training is good.

I like that it teaches the students to want to get in tight to attack. Each partner tries to knock down the other one first.

A lot of times the students hold back and hesitate or don't fully engage when sparring. Part of this is fear of getting in close, and feeling of being in danger.

This kind of training develops a new instinct and gives them more confidence in being close range.

[-N-]

On our sparring days we sometimes break the Kwoon up into 3 zones for 3 mins each, first being the heavy bag, then to the grappling area then to the standup. Many non martial artists just don't get how taxing 9 minutes of all out exertion is on the body and when you do it over and over again during a sparring class it's just a gut buster. I love it!

Nice routine.

[-N-]

The topless bar owner told me that the Kempo instructor who taught there before used to ask his students to stand in horse stance, he then went to next door to have a drink.

You didn't go over there during class when he told you, right? :)

[Kellen Bassette]

Training smart or efficiently , getting the most bang for your buck, developing something that is not dependent of having to be physical strong to make work which then can be added to indefinitely.


The problem is...to make something "work", it has to be consistently tested under pressure. To constantly test skill under pressure, you need to be in decent shape. How do you truly develop a skill without pressure testing it? How do you constantly pressure test without conditioning?

I think very few 85 year old martial artists could hold their own against a 30 year old athlete. That's reality. Hopefully at the end of a MA career we'll have learned enough wisdom to not need to be able to use the skills.

[PalmStriker]

I once jointed in a YMCA Karate class. The instructor always started his class with sit up, push up, running around the room, .... I asked that instructor, "Why do we have to do this? I can do this at home." He said, "Most people don't do this at home." I then found a basic difference in training.

Some people

- come to school to "learn" and go home to "train".
- come to school to "train" and go home to "rest".

When

- someone asks, "How many times do you train weekly?"
- another person asks, "How many times do you train daily?"

These 2 persons definitely don't belong to the same page. :D:):D excellent!

[GoldenBrain]

Partner exercises are a good way to build teamwork and trust.

I'll describe a few that I know.

Pushups: One student is on hands and knees and the other does the pushups with feet on the kneeling students back. Arch back a little so you don't have a sway back. You can use knuckles, flat palm or whatever but mantis is a little hard for the unconditioned students. Also, try pushups while partner is doing wall sits. Place feet on wall sitters knees.

Sit-ups: One student holds the feet of the other. The one not doing the sit-ups can add resistance by pushing back at the shoulders of the one doing the sit-ups with each rep. Or, you can get 3 or 4 students together and lock legs like a woven mat and all do the sit-ups at the same time with each student pushing the opposite students shoulders to provide resistance.

Leg-lifts: One student stands with feet positioned on either side of the student laying on the ground doing leg-lifts. The leg-lift student can brace themselves by grabbing the ankles of the standing student. Try lifting legs straight up and side to side and with each rep the standing student can push the legs back down to offer resistance.

Wall sits: Try this one with a partner standing on your knees/thighs facing you. Unfortunately this one puts the junk of the standing student in your face but if you can get past this minor detail then you are not only training the legs but also wall breaching. The ninjas out there should appreciate this one.

Arm curls and triceps presses, chest and lats: For the curls and triceps face each other. One student holds a belt/sash and provides resistance while the other performs curls and triceps pushdowns. For chest and lats both students face the same direction. The one in front holds the belt/sash at chest level and the one behind grabs the belt/sash on each side. The one in front gets the chest workout and the one in back gets the lats workout.

[GoldenBrain]

Buy a bunch of standard red bricks from your local hardware store. You can also use wooden blocks.

Pushups: Perform pushups with knuckles or mantis on bricks. Work slowly and few reps until well conditioned. New students use flat palm on bricks until conditioned for knuckles and mantis. Also try with a tiger or eagle call grip with bricks either laying flat or standing on one end. Standing them up on end allows you to go deeper into the pushup for a tougher workout. Be careful if standing them on end for they may slip out from beneath you which could injury.

Arm circles: Hold bricks out to each side with arms parallel to the ground. Perform small, medium and large circles to the front and rear. Warn your students not to drop the bricks and if they feel them slipping to set them down. Bricks wreck wood floors and puzzle mats if dropped on them and they aren't to friendly on the feet either.

Dips: Stand bricks up on end and feet out straight on heels. Perform standard dips but be mindful of your balance or the bricks might slip out from under you and cause injury.

Note: I've dipped half of the brick in that rubber coating for tools (found in hardware stores) to save floors or you can adhere a piece of carpet to one side, or whatever you find is useful. Duct tape might work as well and it's cheep. Make sure to leave one side and end uncovered so it roughs up the knuckles a bit.