The power of palm strikes

[Ryu]

You know, aside from my boxing, I am really trying to experiment with open palm strikes in sparring, shadow boxing, etc. The safety factor of not breaking your hand is a plus, and I think you can actually get an extreme amount of power in palm strikes. Anyone who watches pancrase shootfighting in Japan could attest to that. Anyway, what's your opinions on palm strikes? How many use them a great deal? What successes have you had with them? Like, dislike? etc.

Ryu

[greendragon]

they facilitate angular striking.. in Mantis style, palm strike tuns into grab and pull. ..downside, fingers vulnerable.

[Chris McKinley]

As a Baguazhang stylist, they are kind of a specialty. They can withstand more force structurally than any fist can, and they are physiologically faster, if only slightly. They are far more versatile. A simple common sense test is this: you can close a fist faster than you can open one.

After spending 27 years in the martial arts, I have come to a place where punches are rarely if ever used in my reality combat applications for street use. They still have a small place in my arsenal, but are nowhere near being a primary weapon in my arsenal. Granted, my perspective would be quite different if I trained for any sport situations, where punches are still one of the best all-around tools. For street application, if I need a dull, heavy, thudding weapon for whatever reason, I prefer elbows and knees to punches anyway.

[sticky fingers]

‚r‚”‚’‚‰‚‹e hard with soft
Strike soft with hard

[Braden]

Sticky - So you'd use a percussion palm against someone's temple, and an elbow against their ear?

[IronFist]

The temple is soft, so you'd hit it with something hard.

What's a percussion palm?

IronFist

[Braden]

Points on the skull count as soft targets!? Then I'm more confused about the mantra than I thought.

I mean an attack using the flesh in the heart of the palm in a loose manner to 'pop' a target.

[rubthebuddha]

not like that. instead, a punch to the neck, but a palm to the chin. sure, a punch to the chin will hurt the receiver, but i don't know a single person alive who has a knuckle bigger than my jawbone.

personally, i like palm strikes more anyway, because i can hit harder with them. i feel that the more joints you have in a strike, the more places a strike can lose power because there's one more unstable place that power can be lost at, and it's also another place that must tense up at some time to keep the power line stable, and tension usually equals slower strikes.

which brings me to the car metaphor (which can be used to compare/contrast ANYTHING in this world). an engine can make gobs of power, but it has all sorts of places like a transmission and such where that power is lost. the kind of power an engine makes is no where near what is put at the wheels.

[Braden]

Seems to me that palms (softer) work better on the sides of the throat (softer) and an eagle claw (harder) would work better on the adam's apple (harder).

[Xebsball]

Ah yeah theres a saying:

Água mole, pedra dura, tanto bate até que fura.

[BJJISTHEBEST]

you can go pal strike your self why dont ya

[Former castleva]

Could someone please give me a link or related for a picture of eagle claw hand maneuver,and how it is used? How it´s different from tiger claw and etc.
Thanks already.

[PaulLin]

Level 1
Muscle use. Strong in holding. Can generate forces but slow, and cost alot of energy.

Level 2.
Tendon use. Strong in springing, can generate forces, fast, concentrated in time and area of target. Strikes less likely to slip off target. cost small energy.

Level 3.
Qi use. It is what you are doing with the forces after you sent into your opponent's body. You must able to create, control the different types of inner pressures and then you can use them to sent to your opponent and break the Qi balance or dislink the meridiums.

If you are at level 1, you better use fists, grabs, and submission holds.

If you are at level 2 or 3, palm will bring you advantage.

[respectmankind]

palm strikes do have alot of blunt force behind them. also, depending on how you strike with your palm (where rather) you can strike with different kinds of force.

[respectmankind]

paulin, not so sure that a palm strike is not excellent for someone on stage one. palms are my preffered weapon over fists, i hit much harder and take much less collateral damage whenever there is any.

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by respectmankind
paulin, not so sure that a palm strike is not excellent for someone on stage one. palms are my preffered weapon over fists, i hit much harder and take much less collateral damage whenever there is any.

Teh advantage of palm is that it can fully outlet the tendon and Qi forces. In fist, the tendon for can work wonder too, but Qi can't be fully let out.

Since muscle are better in holding, and using of muscle will have to sacrafice the tendon and Qi use, palm will be more effective when you let go of the muscle holds and focus on tendon or Qi. Muscle can make palm work in chapping movements like a swinging ax, but that is not enough for the full use of palm. There are deeper strikes can be avialible once it was backed up by tendon or Qi.

Muscle use with palm may be better than fist, but it will have to train harder than fist. And grab with submission holds is muscle's advatage, it is more advatage than plam strikes in this way.

Also, muscle uses is like a stick, and tendon uses is like rubber rope with lead attached at the end. Qi uses is like blowing out fire.

[respectmankind]

hmmm... as i said, i want to look into the tendon aspect of strikes. i hit hard, but i some of the things you mentioned, and in your other post has got the juices flowing. i train myself, do you have any information for someone like me i could use for exploring that area.

[Cipher]

Is everyone talking about iron palm style striking or palm heel like in Karate? I would guess iron palm style. I like palm strikes a lot, they are fast and relaxed so they can generate a powerful strike. There a lot of really good exercises to develop hand toughness and technique.

[Mantis9]

Cipher

I don't think anybody was making a distinction between the two, but you bring up a good question.

As for myself, the more advanced, relatively speaking, I become the more open hand techs I use. The reason behind it, I think, is something close to what Paul was stating.

My development in striking has become my refined. It lends itself to better relaxation while engaged and diao (mantis hooking hand); a closed hand you have to open, contact, then cling and an open hand you simplify contact and cling.

Also, with iron palm training, I am know better the right feel of a palm strike.

[Ryu]

Good posts everyone. I don't know much about Iron Palm, but I broke a nose or two with palm strikes when I was in High School. I used them a lot before I began my grappling years. I'm getting back into them a bit now because in my opinion they are pretty effective. (palm strikes are effective that is... not slapping ;) )

Ryu

[greendragon]

There is a harder striking surface palm strike known as the 7 star palm. there is a bone at the base of your palm by the wrist on the little finger side, i believe it is called the piriformis. it aligns with the lower arm bone when used. Also, i think targets on the head are a poor choice unless you're going for eyes or ears. Under chin or jaw bone works well, that's what i would like to use on 'BJJisthebest'. hahaha

[Cipher]

I like using the iron palm style strike. To soeone that has never learned it, it can some times look like a power slap but trust me it is nothing like beoch slapping someone:D I like taking a phone book and laying it on a flat serface about waist high and practice a set of about 8 different strikes including 3 good palm strikes and then finish it off with a set off front and back hand palm strikes. My hands are beat red when I am done but it feels good to do it. After awhile you can use harder surfaces like a plate of steel.

[NorthernMantis]

Palm strikes if done correctly penetrate and cause damage internally, which can really hurt:( , injuring internal organs.

Ryu iron palm training is just a conditioning method of making your palms stronger like iron, hece iron palm.

[NorthernMantis]

Uhh Cihper you are using some jow for your hands right? If you dont' train properly it can be hazardous to your health.

[fa_jing]

Ironically, I fractured this bone once in my old TKD class. Just kicking in the air, and I slipped and fell, driving my palm into the floor. When I was x-rayed, they were passing the picture around to all the doctors, it's such a rare break that no one had ever seen it before.

I think there must be some special conditioning performed before you can strike with this "7 star" palm.

-FJ

[greendragon]

may have been a combination of the hard floor and the angle at which you hit. do not practise on hard objects.

[diego]

Originally posted by Former castleva
Could someone please give me a link or related for a picture of eagle claw hand maneuver,and how it is used? How it´s different from tiger claw and etc.
Thanks already.

] Tiger claw can hit with palm heel then rake, can hit temple and rip flesh of face down or to sides, or up/clockwise, etc!.

TwinDragon in search of pearls: Either used as a pronglike eyestrike, or can hit like a percussivelike palm then with thumb index and middle fingertips grips areas such as hip, ribs or armpit area!.

I guess the eagle claw wich is like the second description of my dragon claw, you can hit the throat with a c-strike "the c-center at the bottom of your thumb and index" Then the thumb index and middle can grip the throat, and you can use a outside footsweep to take him down if your holding his arm!.

I think that's what buddy was talking about in the earlier post!.

tclaw- 5finger poke or palm and rake technique.
2Dclaw- two finger poke, or soft palm and grip with thumb and two fingers.

eagle is thumb and 2 fingers i have seen a 4finger one wich looks like a leopard fist!. Eagle is a gripping style but i assume you do C-strikes wich is usually titled TigersMouth!, then lock on, similar to dragon claws in my style.

This is all basic of course, and i will post a visual link in a sec
PEACE

[diego]

http://www.geocities.com/tibetankungfu/first4hands.html

http://www.geocities.com/tibetankungfu/second4hands.html


http://www.geocities.com/tibetankungfu/last4hands.html

http://www.geocities.com/tibetankungfu/lasthand_first2stances.html

This is from David Chin and Micheal Staples HopGar Book!.

What I am told is HopGar and it's cousins is a very complete style in respects to housing the best of chinese gungfu fighting technique, Especially This style would have been say well-endowed with what was going on within the seceret societies of canton and hong kong, so these links should give you a okay idea about kf's specialty hands=Tools they found highly fitting to thier feetplays in combat.

One more thing, i think eagle is more of a locking claw, and dragon is more of a grip&rip action!.

I dont know eagle, so this is what i could equate from my hands, hope this helps!.

[Cipher]

Originally posted by NorthernMantis
Uhh Cihper you are using some jow for your hands right? If you dont' train properly it can be hazardous to your health.

Yep, I use Jow after work outs. I use it on my forearms and shins when I condition them too.

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by respectmankind
hmmm... as i said, i want to look into the tendon aspect of strikes. i hit hard, but i some of the things you mentioned, and in your other post has got the juices flowing. i train myself, do you have any information for someone like me i could use for exploring that area.

Well, in practicing, Tendon training will give you the "first time leg stretch kick tendon pull" pain for about a week. That is in your every strikes that covers all tendons, not just the leg tendons. Although you will start with the legs. Until all tendons were connected and united as one line in every move, you can't really use them correctly.

To use them, one also need the weight(feels of it) at the ends of the rubber rope. Without enough weights, it will be like a typical WuShu moves, has tendon but not good enough in weight. The weight start with Zhan Zhong. After Zhong, go to flowing (moving forces training). For example, White crane-shaking style- used water for training and ShiaoLin and Taoist used fire to train in that purpose. Focus should be on the inner feeling, not actually you have dried the water or punched fire out. When applying tendon with Qi, one will not hold, the forces should keep on moving. That is you will seeking how to store forces by zen on the trees and mountains/metals, seeking applying forces in water and fire.

That is if you combine tendon with qi. It will be internal way.

If you combine tendon with muscle, it will be external way. In which, the strongest power moves of arms are in the direction of holding inwards(since that is what muscles are best for), and legs up/out ward. When combine with tendon, the moving out of an strike will be in swing moves, and after landing will end in holding forces. Then again, it is very easy for a holding end up in tangling.

[roughnready]

i will agree that a properly executed palm strike can be more powerful than a punch, but very few have that capability.

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by roughnready
i will agree that a properly executed palm strike can be more powerful than a punch, but very few have that capability.

I am thinking of "effective" rather than "powerful". I would say the same power you can generate in palm strike, you can do the same with fist, it is just after the strikes was landed, how much forces was actrually completing the intention of your move that will make the different between palm and fist. Personality of the applier would be a factor too, some people fit with fist better.

And that doesn't go the other way as well, like you can't really transfer the same power in fist into palm easily, but you can trasfer the same power in palm to fist easier.

And you are right, very few have that ability.

[once ronin]

in our fut ga lineage handed down from choy fook. our intermediate level training is power of a palm strike. beginners learn to concentrate their power with a fist. then learn to disperse their power with a palm. the last level is to concentrate his power into his fingers.

i have seen my teacher dislocate an enemy's shoulder with a palm to the enemy's fist. all he did was slap a jab from the enemy.

this is also way choy li fut has so many palm strikes. their lineage is also part of choy fook's art.

[Merryprankster]

PaulLin--holding and grabbing is not about muscle strength--it is about proper body positioning and appropriate use of leverage. I promise.

That said here's the word straight from my boxing sifu, for what it's worth:

Don't punch the head in a fight. You'll likely break your hands.

Punch the heart, the liver, the kidneys and the ribs. That's what he said to us anyway, after one of our boxers who is a bouncer broke his hand on somebody's skull. :)

[Dale Dugas]

Iron Palm training is something that is not easy and for the most part people do not have the correct medicine which is what you need for power development. Hitting your hands on bags of material does not make the energy come through your shoulder, elbow and wrist to your palm. The Iron Palm medicine does.

I have seen little people who have the training break some huge amounts of concrete and I have seen huge men who cant break even half the amount. But the huge guy was HUGE and had more strength. Externally that is. Iron palm is an internal program that helps to drive the Qi to your hands whether you want to massage someone or hit them. Again most people see it only as the martial aspect it can entail. I know some people who do it for the better energy flow to their hands for their massage practice. They give great massages that help you heal faster.

Boxers wrap their hands traditionally and if you always wrap you are not going to develop strong hands. Punching is not the question here, but of making the bones stronger in the hands. Iron Palm will do that. You will be able to absorb more punishment with the hands after you train on it for a year or more.

Why did your bouncer friend punch the guy with unprotected hands? He should have palmed the jerk in the head instead. No offence to Boxing. But you going to go around with your hands wrapped and your kidney belt on all the time?

I was a bouncer as well here in Boston and let me tell you I rarely hit people, but when I had to I used palms. I used to bring my medicine and apply it before working. It made my hands ready for unexpected events.

Too bad most teachers of Chinese martial arts do not offer this training. It is dying out.

In Boston,

Dale Dugas

[Ryu]

I agree with Dale here, even though I also think boxing punches can be effective on heads if the fist is thrown right, held properly, etc. My father was an ex-golden gloves boxer and got into fights all his life (he's better now :D but still a bit immature... and also in his 60's haha) He rarely broke his hands, and ended actually a lot of fights on his feet.

Merry, I wanted your imput though. What do you think about the palm/fist break ratio in a fight? I think it would be much safer to palm someone in the head if we're talking about the possibility of breaking hands.

Ryu

[Merryprankster]

Without padding, I'm all for punching the body and palming the head. However, like you said, some people can punch hard things and not hurt themselves

I've personally found that boxing mechanics work fine with a palm rather than a fist. Uppercut palms are quite nice, a jab to the nose is just as effective, as is a cross. Hook palms and uppercut palms are great because you can follow up with a slashing ELBOW!!! :)

Dale--he punched the guy's head because he's not very smart. :)

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
PaulLin--holding and grabbing is not about muscle strength--it is about proper body positioning and appropriate use of leverage. I promise.


How do you hold the proper body positions? Did you used muscle strength? Tendon would spring, I don't think I have seen any holding and grabbing with that, it will snap and kill rather than doing the submission.

I guess you can use partial tendon forces when holding and grabbing, however, I would think they were mainly depends on how to use muscles. The positioning, angles, use of leverages, I think I haven't include these points in that aspect. I was focusing on when you applied forces rather than using wise body physics.

Thanks for sharing.:)

[Merryprankster]

PaulLin--I appreciate what you are saying. It is biomechanically impossible to do anything, however, without contracting muscles. Of course, I also understand what you mean by "not using muscle strength." It's a way of saying that you minimize the amount of muscular effort required to achieve maximum effect. Much of that is acheived through relaxation.

Grappling is very much the same way. You are not always pushing and twisting and pulling, or squeezing very hard to hold on to somebody. You have to learn what to relax and when--how to use your bodyweight to immobilize people, how to use your body efficiently to minimize the amount of muscle that is needed, proper timing, and breaking balance. Really good throws are like walking through a paper bag--almost no effort at all. Neat stuff. But you know that from your Shuai Chiao background :)

Anyway, all I'm trying to do is pre-empt the idea that grappling is about strength when that is just one component, like anything else.

[freestyler]

if you're lacking in practise or strength in your forearm palming avoids having your hand buckling when striking, losing power and being hurt yourself.
also when your hands are open your more likely to be ready to grab.

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
PaulLin--I appreciate what you are saying. It is biomechanically impossible to do anything, however, without contracting muscles. Of course, I also understand what you mean by "not using muscle strength." It's a way of saying that you minimize the amount of muscular effort required to achieve maximum effect. Much of that is acheived through relaxation.

Grappling is very much the same way. You are not always pushing and twisting and pulling, or squeezing very hard to hold on to somebody. You have to learn what to relax and when--how to use your bodyweight to immobilize people, how to use your body efficiently to minimize the amount of muscle that is needed, proper timing, and breaking balance. Really good throws are like walking through a paper bag--almost no effort at all. Neat stuff. But you know that from your Shuai Chiao background :)

Anyway, all I'm trying to do is pre-empt the idea that grappling is about strength when that is just one component, like anything else.

I see, you have some internal elements in your arts:D
and that is a very correct point about ShuaiChaio.

[greendragon]

"Don't punch the head in a fight. You'll likely break your hands."
.amen MP

[Cipher]

Maybe I am getting confused here, but when you guys say don't punch the head you're refering to the top, back, or side of the head right? I totaly agree with using palm strikes for the harder parts of the skull and many other things too, but I don't see much wrong with punching the face, jaw, nose, and side of head by the temple. I train palm strikes for any area but I use punches for the face also, it just depends on what I want to do. It also depends on what your hands can handle and how much you condition them

[Kaitain(UK)]

get a 6 foot log - bury it in the ground

put a crash helmet on top of it

punch it with a closed fist

go to hospital

hitting someone in the head can seriously **** your hand up

hitting them in the face can lead to getting teeth stuck in your knuckle, which then gets infected. Sounds a bit lame but if you've seen someone's hand with this kind of injury it can get pretty gross.

However - it's also a very quick way of ending a confrontation. You run the risk of losing a major weapon if you don't stop the other guy though.

Having said that - an open hand runs the risk of dislocated fingers etc

[guohuen]

Agreed. I used to be stupid enough to punch people in the mouth. Took quite a long time for the wounds to heal. BTW, avoidance, reasoning, verbal jousting and charging have kept me out of actual fights now for twenty years. That includes corrections and bartending. Two trades known for fights.

[scotty1]

A log with a crash helmet on is slightly harder than the face, no?

[Cipher]

I haven’t punched someone in the teeth since 5th grade. I would hope most people would actively avoid hitting the teeth. That would be a bad feeling to hurt your hand in the middle of a fight and lose a weapon. My cousin got in a fight and uppercuted this guy right in the mouth, the dude was out of it, but it split my cousins knuckles wide open.

Same goes for kicking in different areas. If your legs are not used to the punishment then you can hurt yourself kicking someone.