No chi sau?

[LMKwc]

Do you think that a certain degree of sensitivity(at a low level) in wing chun can be attained with a total absence of chi sau?

If the answer is yes, then maybe it would depend on training methods/drill used. What do you think?

In regards to short term benefit(6 months to a year say), does chi sau significantly increase your skill level(of being able to apply wing chun), or do you think you could utilise the time more efficiently by working on other basics to a greater depth?

Just curious of your opinions, because it seems to me that different schools start chi sau at different stages of training.

Yang.

[stuartm]

Some Dan Chi Sau drills will teach you an element using the lut sau jik chung theory, but no Chi Sau at all ???!?!?!?!?

No chi sau - no WC

Stu

[Nat from UK]

One of the most common mistakes I see in begginners is that of punching from too far away, ie only just connecting with the fist. I think this may be a reluctance to get to close to an opponent.

Chi Sau can be good to experience working/reacting within a closer range and getting used to attacking/defending at that closer range.

Nat from UK

[dezhen2001]

i think chi sau is important as it teaches you about your correct distance and how to use it. Also how to relax, and how to use the principles of WC. You can also do experiments and learn many things, it's like doing practical work in a lab :)

david

[black and blue]

I agree with the other posters regarding the importance of Chi Sau...

but...

... one thing I've noticed is that many people practise Chi Sau standing still... almost exclusively so :(

IMHO, if you don't incorporate footwork into your sensitivity drills you're limiting your ability to take advantage of what Chi Sau is all about (ie. detecting motion, nullifying motions, opening/closing/exploiting angles of attack and defence - all through correct structure).

That said, I don't agree Chi Sau should be started too early. If your Tan and Bong positioning sucks, and your ability to close the gap etc is poor, you're playing with the 'fun' aspect of WC without having drilled the basics.

This can lead, later on, to people having pretty good hands that collapse when their footwork, stance, and ability to deal with heavy pressure is put under the spotlight.

But hey, it's just my opinion... and I'm not Red5Angel :) (Just kidding R5A)

[LMKwc]

At my school, the beginners class focuses on SNT, and defense against mostly street style attacks. There is no wing chun vs wing chun at all in this class. Also no chi sau. Not even any moving footwork. Everything here is about working on structure, alignment, and positioning of the hands. There is only a basic set of hands taught here, and then you've got to perfect them as best you can. My sifu is CONSTANTLY correcting others structure, alignment and positioning.

Of course, some of you may cringe at this methodology, however, IMHO this has been an extremely effective method of building a very solid foundation. I get the impression that a lot of schools throw too much at beginners, where they just don't have time or processing power to grasp it all to it's full extent. I'm very happy with my progress so far. I had the opportunity to visit Austrailia nearly a year ago, and got to check out 2 other schools. I'm pleased to say that it made me even happier with my teacher!

The next class up starts you out on dan chi sau, and also san sau(?) - wing chun vs wing chun.

Nat from UK-I know what you're saying about working in the correct range. Luckily, we are made aware of this early on.

Do/did any of you learn with a simliar method to this?

Yang.

[Miles Teg]

LMKwc
Hi from NZ

Do you train in Onehunga?

[aelward]

LMKwc, are you by any chance, a student of Bruce Cheng? Just wondering, because I often assume LMK is "Lo Man Kam," and his student Bruce Cheng is teaching in New Zealand...

Anyway, I have seen schools that start teaching chi sao relative late, like after a year or two of basics. From my understanding, the American WT curriculum emphasizes "lat sao" programs for one or two years before introducing chi sao; I heard from a Hawkins Cheung student that they did primarily drills for a couple of years before starting chi sao, as well.

I have also seen schools that do NO chi sao, or very little. It is a very foreign concept to me, but they still follow WC principles such as economy of motion, simultaneous attack and defense, centerline. Also, from what I understand, only Yuan Kay San WC and Yip Man WC make much use of chi sao at all. So without it, I think you could probably still say it is Wing Chun.

[Miles Teg]

Ahhhh...
Of course! (LMK)

Either Bruce Cheng or his student Tony Brookes right?

[LMKwc]

Hi Miles - No I do not train in Onehunga. I guess you are refering to Joe Mahunga(sp?).

Aelward - Yes, I am of Lo Man Kam lineage.

Generally, you can expect to be in our beginner class for 9 months to a year. It happens that I have been there for 2 years for various reasons, while missing only a handful of classes!! I am about to move up to the next class in three weeks, so I am very excited about that. A couple of months ago I got to get together with some older brothers, and after us being on an even skill level before they moved up, they can now kick my ass with ease!lol

Yang.

[Miles Teg]

No I meant Peter Yu's Wing Tsun school in Onehunga.

[LMKwc]

Miles - doesn't Peter Yu teach in Wellington?

[Miles Teg]

Both.
He flies to Auckland every week. He teaches on Mondays and leaves the class to Robert Chitty on Wednesdays. I believe he teaches on Wednesdays in Wellington and leaves the class to somebody else on Mondays there.

He owns the martial art store on Victoria St in town, and another one in Wellington. I think thats why he keeps coming back and forth.

[Bertygerm]

Hi

Without chi sau its not wc.

Form and chi sau is wc.

[sticky fingers]

At my school, we did single hand chi sau and rolling bong sau several months before double hand chisau, which was taught about 1 year after starting. Rolling bong sau teaches you many chi sau skills but doesn't require the more subtle sensitivity skills that double hand chi sau does. A very good progression IMHO

[edward]

If there ain't no chi sao, it ain't wing chun

[Rill]

If there ain't no chi sao, it ain't wing chun
Care to elaborate?

[LMKwc]

Well after 2 years I have only just been shown the basic single hand chi sau last week - so have I only been learning wc for 1 week? lol

[yuanfen]

Sure there are different stages in different schools regarding when to introduce chi sao... but without chi sao one doesnt understand the proper timing of the motions and the working conception of the center as well as one should.... among other things.

[Bertygerm]

Yea sounds about right good training for a junior student remember you have to incorparate everything into one all over simple thought.

Good on you chap.