Yip Man's first disciple

[red5angel]

Yip Man's first disciple, Leung Sheung

Leung Sheung was 30 years old when he met Yip Man. He weighed 200# and had been doing Choy Lay foot and Dragon style for approx. 20 years and teaching for the past 10 years. Yip Man weighed 120# and was 50 years old. After meeting with Yip Man, Leung Sheung turned over his class and moved lived with Yip Man for the next 6 years. They trained everyday.

Does anyone on this forum know anything else about the great grandfather of my kung fu that they would like to share??

[red5angel]

niiiiiiiiice. Maybe something constructive?

[sunkuen]

LMFAO @ Wuji:D

[gnugear]

Originally posted by wujidude
Yeah. He's dead.

show some respect.

[red5angel]

Yep, the key word here is respect. You can express your opinions but you dont have to be disrespectful.

[red5angel]

thumbs up wujidude, its alright.... :)

Some may see this as the wrong sort of thing. I am looking for any insightful info on Leung Sheung. Also, some may interpret this as a comment on lineage (as usual) but if you look closely this is a comment on wing chun, and its ability.......

[yuanfen]

red5angel- You supposedly are in the Kenneth Cheung line.
Your sigung, his class mates and their students are the best source of information. Why not just ask them? David Wiiliams in his Planet Wing chun also has some information.Simple.

[red5angel]

Yep, they are being probed as well. I am helping out some people to track down info and David may be one of them actually. We figured some of you guys may have some info as well so I tapped this resource.

[rubthebuddha]

thanks wuji!

[diego]

Due Respects but which one is it.

LS liked IpMan and wingchun since he was young and sought ip out

or ip laughed at LS's bakmei class they fought then ip taught?.

two totally differant storys ones a happy drama the other actiondrama:confused:
peace

[red5angel]

Thanks Wujidude! anyone else?

[reneritchie]

r5a - Let me once again pointing out that Yip Man did, in fact, have a half-dozen or so students in Foshan in the early 1940s, 8 years or so before beginning to teach Leung Sheung and the rest in Foshan. Of those half-dozen or so, Lun Gai sifu (the youngest) is still around and teaching in Foshan.

There was a story floated by some of Leung Sheung's students in HK last year which seems factually difficult to resolve, but if you're interested, shoot me an email and I'll forward it on to you (for the funny file, if nothing else).

Rgds,

RR

[red5angel]

Thanks Renee, I will do!

:eek: I checked your profile, no pm or email address, you can hit my profile and either email me or pm me please?

[kj]

Originally posted by reneritchie
There was a story floated by some of Leung Sheung's students in HK last year which seems factually difficult to resolve, but if you're interested, shoot me an email and I'll forward it on to you (for the funny file, if nothing else).


I was on a group tour with Ken in 1999 when we met Lun Gai. We spent a good amount of time with him one day, including dim sum then dinner that evening. He demonstrated some of his sets; some of the advanced students in our group offered their demonstrations as well. I do not know if another Leung Sheung group visited him since then, but indeed ours did that year.

Many Wing Chun people have met Lun Gai in recent years, recognizing his name in several Latinized variants (Lun Gai is the one printed on the back of the business card he gave me). I don't know personally of other Ip Man students in Foshan, but I can verify Lun Gai at least.

Hope that is helpful in some way.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[red5angel]

Cool story KJ, thanks!

[diego]

Originally posted by diego
Due Respects but which one is it.

LS liked IpMan and wingchun since he was young and sought ip out

or ip laughed at LS's bakmei class they fought then ip taught?.

two totally differant storys ones a happy drama the other actiondrama:confused:
peace


So Wich One.
I'm sorry to shatter peoples realitys and if its to much agianst your monthly fees curriculum:D you can alter the truth i just want to know just like i want to know is the sky really blue or is it reflecting?. SORRY to bring up reality in this forum, but if it offends some of you this doesnt have to be answered and we can get back to make believe
PEACE

[planetwc]

Originally posted by diego



So Wich One.
I'm sorry to shatter peoples realitys and if its to much agianst your monthly fees curriculum:D you can alter the truth i just want to know just like i want to know is the sky really blue or is it reflecting?. SORRY to bring up reality in this forum, but if it offends some of you this doesnt have to be answered and we can get back to make believe
PEACE

Actually sort of both. Leung Sheung had heard of Wing Chun and Weng Chun as a young man and was interested in learning the art. He also as an experienced teacher in martial arts (choy Lay fut, Dragon style and Bak Mei) tried his hands against Yip Man. Yip Man quite easily had total control over him. Proof enough of his skill in Wing Chun Kuen. Leung Sheung ceased teaching his Bak Mei class and devoted his time for the next 6 years living with Yip Man and learning from him.

Now certain people have written rather dramatic versions of said events which are quite interesting in light of their not having been even started in Wing Chun at the time the 2 men (Leung Sheung and Yip Man) met.

[reneritchie]

KJ,

Lun Gai was the youngest and the last remaining. Kwok Fu, who was in his 80s, passed away a few years back, I believe. The others passed away over the previous years. I've heard that Lok Jai was among the most talented.

Rgds,

RR

[kj]

Originally posted by reneritchie
Lun Gai was the youngest and the last remaining.

That is what I had been told. Thanks for your confirmation.
- kj

[Nat from UK]

I train most weeks with a couple of guys under the Lun Gai lineage, they claim lineage ultimately to Yip Man but through Lun Gai - Very interesting conversations occur when we compare my Hong Kong Yip Man WC to their Foshan Yip Man WC -

- As soon as you get past the differences in the forms and terminology the principles are pretty much the same. - Definitely from the same source IMHO.

Nat from UK

[reneritchie]

Hi KJ, Nat,

What overt differences, if any, did you notice when seeing the Lun Gai lineage? I've only seen a little, and it seemed quite interesting. KJ, am I correct in thinking it seems closer to what you guys do than to the latter HK students?

RR

[diego]

Originally posted by planetwc


Actually sort of both. Leung Sheung had heard of Wing Chun and Weng Chun as a young man and was interested in learning the art. He also as an experienced teacher in martial arts (choy Lay fut, Dragon style and Bak Mei) tried his hands against Yip Man. Yip Man quite easily had total control over him. Proof enough of his skill in Wing Chun Kuen. Leung Sheung ceased teaching his Bak Mei class and devoted his time for the next 6 years living with Yip Man and learning from him.

Now certain people have written rather dramatic versions of said events which are quite interesting in light of their not having been even started in Wing Chun at the time the 2 men (Leung Sheung and Yip Man) met.


Not to downplay LS's intelligence but the first story i heard was yip man laughed at his class...wich makes a more NEAT! story; is this false?.:cool:

[dfl]

More than likely.
From all accounts, YM was not the kind of guy who would watch a class and make any explicit comments, let alone laugh.

[Nat from UK]

Not got much time as I am at work but a few differences from the top of my head.

2 Knife forms - some positions found in both Foshan forms unlike anything I have seen in HK BJD forms, can't comment too much on this as I am not at BJD level yet.

Pheonix eye punch used throughout SLT, CK and BJ forms

Dummy - their dummy is buried in the gound, I think the "Dead" is the term, as oppose to the more common method of suspension on wooden beams.

I will be playing chi sau with them monday/tuesday next week so I will make an effort to take some notes and forward on to you.

I am not sure what you mean to latter HK students. I train WSL and Ip family.

Nat from UK

PS - any more books in the pipeline?? :)

[Nat from UK]

I just reread that "latter HK students" bit was aimed at KJ - so ignore that in my post :D

Nat from UK

[kj]

Originally posted by reneritchie
Hi KJ, Nat,

What overt differences, if any, did you notice when seeing the Lun Gai lineage? I've only seen a little, and it seemed quite interesting. KJ, am I correct in thinking it seems closer to what you guys do than to the latter HK students?

RR

He performed SNT and CK, but if I recall right (and may not), he did not perform BJ while we were there.

With such a rare opportunity, my attention was focused heavily to observe his body mechanics, posture, and style of movement rather than on choreography or explicit techniques. Any differences in the latter were minor in my estimation. The phoenix eye, as Nat mentioned, did catch my notice.

In the range of body mechanics and styles of movement I've observed throughout Ip Man Wing Chun, his was not particularly unusual. I perceived his demonstration as mid-range wrt things like stance height, postural alignment, and relaxation vs. snappiness. For examples:

He was not as sunken and low in the stance as we and some others practice, and knees were not as close. Neither was he as wide and high as some I've seen, nor did he forgo knees and toes in as some do. It can be difficult to get a correct sense of a person's "root" through appearances only and without touching. With that disclaimer then, there did not "appear" to be as dramatic an emphasis on rooting and posture as some, and some of the earlier HK students in particular.

Posture and movement too appeared (to me) to be moderate within the broader range, and natural but not uncontrolled. If there was any curving or hunching of the spine or shoulders, it was not significant enough for me to recall it as compared with some I've seen. The spine was not significantly "S" or "C" shaped, and if there was any rounding of the shoulders it was not so extreme as some I've seen (e.g., the way some Taiji people do) as to merit my recollection. Neither was his posture stiff or military. My general "sense" of his posture and movement (which may not be worth the ascii to express it) is that he was perhaps a bit more "naturally" aligned rather than precisely so. Body unity (e.g., during chum kiu turns) was not "whipping" or spiraling at the waist (hips and shoulders in different directions throughout the turns) as I've seen some later HK students do; neither was it as tight as some I've seen, especially from the earlier HK students.

Striking motions did have some snappiness to them, but certainly not to the extreme of some I've seen. There was no dynamic tension, and he did not seem to be trying to reach for extra "oomph" nor trying to throw body weight into his strikes. If forced to characterize (I am writing only under duress of course, LOL), I would say that the demonstration showed a compromise between emphasis on position versus force, not one at the exclusion of the other.

Hand/arm elevations during practice of the sets were higher than ours (but whose isn't), but not as high as some (e.g., tan sau and bong sau). So again, I would consider this moderate as benchmarked against the range of what I've seen being demonstrated and practiced in the various lines of Ip Man Wing Chun.

IMHO, there were elements of his demonstration that appeared common with both earlier Hong Kong students and some of the later students. Considering that and his moderation (i.e., lack of extremes) I think it would be easy for the eye of any given beholder to perceive their preference, or lack of their preference, in his demonstration. In other words, a demonstration more open to interpretation rather than definitive in many characteristics.

I will add, perhaps most importantly, that Lun Gai was delightful and a perfect gentleman throughout our visit. Gentle, kind, humble, soft-spoken, and generous. I feel very privileged to have had the opportunity to be in his company.

Just my thoughts and recollections, much of which may be all wet, in case they are worth anything to anyone.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[popsider]

Originally posted by Nat from UK
I train most weeks with a couple of guys under the Lun Gai lineage, they claim lineage ultimately to Yip Man but through Lun Gai - Very interesting conversations occur when we compare my Hong Kong Yip Man WC to their Foshan Yip Man WC -
Nat from UK

Nat is this a club or do you just hook up with these Lun Gai guys informally ? Is this through Derek Frearson or is it someone else ?

[Nat from UK]

The two guys I train with do train (and teach for) with Derek Frearson in Leicester.

I train informally with them, in homes, gardens, garages etc.

I have known them both for a number of years.

I originally started my kung fu training in Derek Frearsons association back in the early 80's although I did not train directly with Derek. This is how I know the two guys that I train with now.

I was the first instructor of one of the guys when he was about 9 years old - he is big ****er now - but thankfully with a short memory!!, this was within Derek Freasons association.

Nat from UK

[narjar]

I have been training with Lun Gai sifu for the last few years.I have been training in Wing Chun for over 30 years.I find the Yip Man Foshan style has more to offer to me than the Hong Kong style.The forms are more involved longer different moves different way of stepping etc.All forms use saat jin kuen or killing arrow fist as we call it (phonex fist alittle different).The Leung Ting book that shows Lun Gai doing the forms is completely wrong a lot of photos are missing and the sequence is wrong. The mook jong has almost 300 moves,17 sections and all sections are named.By the way on his business card his name is LON GI.

[planetwc]

Does anyone plan to put together either a book, or VCD of Lon Gi's Wing Chun? Or even a website with the correct sequence of his system?

[tnwingtsun]

Its the man,not the system,WT/WC/VT are systems as are Bai Mei(White Eyebrow),anyone claiming that Yip's system is better than
Leung Sheung's other systems are spitting in the wind just as
Leung Sheung did when he crossed hands with Yip.



If I had no training and had to fight tomorrow I would choose Yip's system.

If I had time,I would blend both WT/WC/VT,White Eyebrow/YKM/SPM,but who here has the time???


I've seen WT/WC/VT split White Eyebrow/YKM/SPM/Dragon and I've seen
White Eyebrow/YKM/SPM rip apart WT/WC/VT,one thing I've learned about WT/WC/VT vs. White Eyebrow/YKM/SPM/Dragon
is that its not the system but the man.

Those that underestimate White Eyebrow/YKM/SPM/Dragon systems beware,this is coming from someone that has done both.


PS,Red,send me a private messsage and I'll fill ya in on something that might complete your question.

[narjar]

I know that Roger Smart sifu has taken digital photos of all the forms of the Lon Gi (lun gai) Yip Man Foshan style.One of the Curtin Uni. did all the work and put all the photos in a book form ready for other info to be written.I think he is only giving it to top students.All so he has done the same with the Yip Man Hong Kong style and the Mainland style.

[kj]

Originally posted by narjar
By the way on his business card his name is LON GI.

My apologies. You are correct of course. So many people have corrected me on that spelling, my only excuse can be that I started to believe them. That or a dilemma of age. ;)

Thanks for catching my error.
- Kathy Jo

[kj]

Here is a photo of Lon Gi (center) with Kenneth Chung (right). I apologize that I cannot identify the gentleman on the left. Photo is posted courtesy and permission of Tom Tang.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[cha kuen]

I heard that when students would chi sau with Leung Sheung, they would see many stars and be dazed afterwards!

kung fu books (http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=taichimaster06&include=0&since=-1&sort=3&rows=25)