Is it really that slow?

[Naturalkilla]

Hi,

I'd just like to know what some other people's opinions are on the subject of development in Taijiquan and internal martial arts. Specifically, I mean the development of combat skill. For instance, I've read Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming's estimate which is at 10 years to be able to fight, while individuals like Erle Montaigue and William Chen have written that some functional skill can be obtained within a couple of years at most.

Any ideas?

[Water Dragon]

It took me about a year to gain some functional skill in Taiji vie William CC Chen's method.

No, you wont be advanced and yes, you will make mistakes. But what you have will be useable.

[greendragon]

it can augment training you already had. Like adding push hands to boxing. it takes about 4 months to learn the basic form and two years average to fight with.

[Ky-Fi]

Just to clarify a bit, I don't think Dr. Yang has said it takes 10 years to be able to fight with Taiji. I have heard him say that it would probably take about 10 years to go through the whole curriculum as he teaches it----including the barehand form, qigong, push hands, apps, sparring, and saber, sword, staff and spear training. And, he has said that someone learning Northern Shaolin or White Crane, as he teaches, would learn to fight quicker than the Taiji students would---but I don't think he's said that you wouldn't be able to fight at all with Taiji until after 10 years--at least I haven't heard him put it like that.

I think a lot of it depends on the focus of the individual student. I learned the correct way to do the basic strikes and kicks in the first few months---and Dr. Yang suggested also practicing individual moves fast, and with a heavy bag. Of course, really being able to apply some of the more subtle stuff--the peng, yielding, fa jing, chin-na, etc.--- in the art takes a good deal longer, though.

[Kumkuat]

Just like any skill, you have to work hard for it, have a little talent, and have a good teacher; then you can probably get it in a few years. If not, you'll never be decent. Just like me.

[Chris McKinley]

Kinda depends on who you're training with and how and what they teach.

[taooftaichi]

The question must be referenced to be appropriate. Do you mean combat as in self defense? That is a spontaneous attack by one or more people?

Then I have had students who have been able to successfully defend themselves after 3 months, with the training we do.

Do you mean combat as in Tournaments? Then I would agree that more time is needed, perhaps several years.

Do you mean against an untrained individual? Then a few weeks may be practical.

But against a highly trained individual it would certainly take several years of intense training.

All of these statements apply to ANY martial art and not just Tai Chi.

But a special circumstance for Tai Chi is using internal power. That can certainly take years to develop in most traditional settings. Yet I have shown some of the most advanced internal exercises to students who have studied with me for approx. 5 years to great benefit, when other teachers claimed their students would need over 10 years of training before they could learn those exercises.

Very often the mount of time needed to develop combat skill in Tai Chi is controlled by the teacher, for various reasons, not by the ability of the student to progress.

[Naturalkilla]

I really appreciate all of the informative responses to my original question, but I should have been more specific. What I really wanted to know was other people's estimates of how long the traditional methods of training (on average, with ideal conditions that are uniform, etc) would take approximately to progress to a level where they can be used for combat.

I was also wondering about issues such as: whether training methods for fighting can be learned immediately upon beginning Taiji and result in the production of meaningful progress towards internal skill, whether traditional methods of form, push hands, da lu, etc are capable of producing fighting skill (for an average individual) or whether they need to be augmented by more specific training, as well as whether or not whole body internal power (the torso method) is an absolute pre-requisite to using Taiji (not in name only) as a combat art. Also, I've been training for around 3-4 years and I was hoping to gain some information as to whether or not I could meaningfully practice self-defense/free fighting methods using what I know of Taiji.

I'd also like to thank Ky-Fi for correcting me on the "10 year" estimate of Dr. Yang. He said to be proficient in Taiji fighting takes around 10 years for an average student (training about 2 hours a day) in his book "Yang Style Tai Chi Chuan." He definitely did not say that 10 years would be necessary for any ability level. I was just throwing out a number to incite responses.

Also, TaoofTaiChi, what kind of training do you do exactly?

Later,

Naturalkilla

[CD Lee]

You have been asked to CLARIFY what you mean by COMBAT???? The last guy made a great point. If you mean in a bar, in self defense, then much faster. If you mean UFC style combat, then a long time.

Every situation is very different. Combat is simply not all the same. On a battle field, maybe never, as you need artillery and planes to win there. Maybe. It just depends right?

[steve b.]

with all the valid points above the only thing i can add is that it's not the art that is fighting it's the individual so keep training.and rember to train as if your life depended on it.