loyalty(what is it?)

[andoi]

just thought i`d ask a quick question about loyalty, i have noticed that a lot of ppl have different ideas of what it means, i know some ppl who think that its fine to try and learn different styles or have more than one sifu, i find the idea a little crazy esp. if u havent finished learning from one.
Also just post your stories about loyalties in friendship as well because everyday i see things that make me think ppl dont know what it is anymore.

[David Jamieson]

There are a great number of sifu out there who have or have had more than one sifu themselves.
In some cases 5 or 6 sifus! or more, as they travel through the path they are on.

The point being, your foundation is what is key. Once you have a strong foundation you can build a house that you like. You can also put additions on that house, landscape the yard, add a pool etc etc to use an analogy many are familiar with.

The greatest show of loyality is the preservation of the art you were taught as it was taught to you imho.
Don't turn your art into a cult of personality. It harms you as a student and it harms the art ultimately as the focus shifts away from the art and becomes about a man. Recognize your own intentions first and above everything else.

As the old saying goes, it's not the man, it's the style. :)

peace

[Former castleva]

I think loyalty is about being faithul.
When you say something significant,you say it from the heart,and live up to it.
Act respectfully towards nature that you do have connective tissues to.
Stuff like that.
And I don´t think there is anything wrong about cross-training (having many sifu´s) Many people do have something you can learn from,and you can teach them.
When you do different things and sometimes skip your old path,you may as well go out and find another one,might feel refreshing,and you don´t have to dump the old ones,if you like them.
You don´t have to blindly follow one,you can try several things out to find what suits you the best,and you can still warp.
And as previously said,it´s about finding your place,and that precious foundation.

[Cody]

Agree a lot with Former castleva's post. Being loyal doesn't mean that, with experience, you don't change your mind or priorities, just that that you are honest about them, to self and others. I'll be talking simultaneously about loyalty in the kwoon and in personal life. However,

I think there can be confusion with this word, loyalty. It is seen as an adherence, allegiance, defence of a person, ideals, government. Inserting the words "no matter what" at the end is tempting. In a simple dictionary definition, no grey area is suggested. Exclusivity or singularity aren't explored. Hence, much of what passes for loyalty is lip service. Things get difficult when trying to balance an outside loyalty with one's nature, with what is good for one and good for the greater community as well. On the extreme ends, the word, loyalty, can be one of voluntary, healthy cohesion or a battle cry based on questionable or unnecessary exclusivity.

I think that loyalty is the result of a Conscious and Honest Decision to Join. Anything that takes away from these factors chips away at the loyalty.
I guess I would like to include an "informed decision;" however, there can be a conscious and honest decision without sufficient data, or even asking for it. This can result in a strong loyalty and should be respected as such.
Disillusionment (knowledge) might change the degree to which alliances operate in one's life, and cause one to reject one or all. But, a personal and/or professional loyalty (exclusive or not) might remain because of honest respect for a person or a martial art or way of life. Yet, all is a matter of degree.

Examples of challenges to loyalties or degrees of honesty which cause many problems:

1. Cult of personality situation. Can twist up the insides and require an eventual recallibration of who one is, who one is/was in relation to the cult leader, and re-establishing one's own standards separate from those handed down, as is necessary. Loyalty to self needs to be rebuilt.

2. A situation where allegiance to a martial art (to the point of ridiculing others) is necessarily, forcing blind following, denial, or dishonesty on the part of students in order to stay with a valued teacher. This bit of dishonesty can make its way inward, mainly in cases in which a student needs to progress too much.
"Denial" is what the mind does when a fact or situation is too much to bear; it is internal lying of a sort, which is hard, but not impossible to control.

I do feel that the loyalty involved might be genuine in some students, but in others, the above applies, and that does not add up to a conscious and honest decision to be loyal in my book.

Some teachers might demand from students of all levels what they did not do themselves, aherence to one art before studying other arts seriously. It can be, imo, a matter of personal ego no matter what the label. I am not saying that staying with one art is a bad thing, or that floating around is such a good thing. It's how one does anything and why and what it means to you -- your sense of self and self respect, and that related to outside loyalties.

3. Another is outright lying by a leader about an associate, which has an adverse and direct effect on that associate, and indirectly, on the many who are loyal to that leader and what he represents.
It might be unclear to the associate whether the words are believed by the speaker or meant to manipulate a situation. There might have been a subtly indicated intention to rectify things, which may not be carried out because the leader loses footing during the process. Whatever, what I describe is a situation in which mutual pledged loyalty has been compromised by a leader in a professional or personal situation. When an underdog (perceived or in reality) acts like that to tarnish the reputation of someone who is trusted and valued, in order to rise up to the leader, the means and results can be similar.
Bottom line: the ties of loyalty within a group and to a leader have been tainted.

A key symptom of the above situation might be double signals, with two possibilities presented by the person over a period of time. The tendency for the sincerely and completely loyal party is to not put emphasis on the negative.
Motivations for this destructive, deceptive behavior have roots in terrible insecurity/anger, which combines with cunning; or, mental illness in which a person is juggling possibilities and influences (internal and external), but cannot act freely or decide normally. It can be hard to tell one from the other for a while, at times. The complexity of mental disturbances, which might include internalized aspects (emotions, ways of expression, what I just mentioned) derived from an outside person (or people) who holds the reins, can make it almost impossible to figure who or what bears responsibility.
We All have influences in our lives and there can be fine line between us and them. muddy territory, even for the so-called normal community of individuals. Makes loyalty a complex issue, when loyalty to one's nature and process is not nurtured or it is blocked. It is possible that the word should not be used as freely as it is if a restrictive definition is adhered to.

Adjustments: The choice of whether to maintain a sincere loyalty (without blind following) to a person who has compromised bonds of loyalty is a difficult one and might lead to sacrifice, which is taken on because of honest feeling and understanding. Yet, the maintanence of that loyalty needs to be tempered by judgment and presence of true respect of self and of the other person. This would apply to all less extreme situations in which mutual loyalty is found to be not sufficiently exchanged, or somehow lacking. That would seem to drift into issues of respect for self and others, which for me is not governed by station.

To summarize: What I have addressed is a non-utopian way of viewing loyalty, but I think it is realistic. It is realistic in terms of unfortunate and benign situations. my feelings, not a pronouncement.

Cody

[No_Know]

"There are a great number of sifu out there who have or have had more than one sifu themselves.
In some cases 5 or 6 sifus! or more, as they travel through the path they are on. "


But on that path they are sent with blessings from their sifu. When the student nededs learning that the teacher does not have that teacher will usually know of of who should be the next to instruct the student. And this continues. A Teacher would take you as far as could then guide you to who could progress you. This is my understanding of how traditionally it can be done. There is no violation of loyalty this way when permission is Told to you to move on.

People who move on with out permission from current Sifu would theoretically be breaking loyalty.

Some people don't merit loyalty. But People usually want. And they want things. They will aleign themselves with a group or a person to get that thing or those things. They might mistake loyalty to getting that thing as loalty to the group or person.

Loyalty is claiming that one is with whatever, and sticking to that. Loyalty is relevant to each social structure and varying degrees within them.There is a prioritization to loyalties. There is the concept that there is only one loyalty that can be followed supremely. -ish But it has been managed to keep every loyalty.

[Cody]

No_Know.
Your response warmed my heart because there was a meeting of the minds. I understand what you are speaking of, and, in truth, had forgotten. A truth for some, an unmet ideal for others, walking the path of this special kind of knowledge. Your explanation was needed at this time, especially as a balance.
Then, it appears to be my aim to keep to all my loyalties. Hadn't thought of it that way. thanx.

Agree re affiliations not necessarily being an act of loyality, and why.

very well,

Cody

[AndyM]

It was suggested to me that I should show more loyalty to the Master of the Style I practiced, whom I met three times in 12 years. Than I should for the Sifu I started, and trained 8 hours a week with.

What do you think?

[friday]

i might add something a bit later
but according to my limited knowledge of traditional rules the permission by the sifu to move onto another teacher (for whatever reasons) is more good manners if the student is not bai see to the sifu. If the student is bai see to the sifu then this approval is required.

correct me if i'm wrong.

[Shaolin]

My shifu once told me "you will always be more loyal to your students than thy are to you". Unfortunatly over the years, I have found his statement to be true.

[No_Know]

Theoretically, sifus tend to keep track of what their students are doing. They might give you something and not be back for years or days or weeks or months. Usually enough time passes that you could have mastered (become good enough at) that by the when they return. It might dishearten if you don't perform it to an expected standard. Theoretically all that they want is for you to do well. If you don't, then do, for next time~ whenever that might be. If you have Sifu's students teach you, then do what they say, because Sifu is telling them what to teach. Be careful about disregarding Sifu's instructions, whether by Sifu directly or indirectly (through students...).

I Met someone. We hadn't met before, yet we had always known each other. I would not ever see that person again. Does my Love for that person waver to my dying day? No!

You see your baby born. You just met~. Is there a lot that you wouldn't do for that person?~ Loyalty should not be alterable by distance or time-together.

Trust is required. Doubt is a Great Illusionist.~

[friday]

hi everyone, :) i'm going to sit down now and give a very comprehensive response to this loyalty issue based upon my own experience along with some other related matters. it is a long story so be forewarned :)

Loyalty:
what does this concept/idea mean to me? as a general virtue i believe it means being true to your friends, acting to defend their honour, being supportive of them when times are tough. i believe i m lucky enuff in life to have been granted the privilege of having the friendship of many ppl i respect and trust. this applies to my family, and sifus, kungfu brothers.

Loyalty and Kung fu:
i studied CLF when i was younger for a short duration, i continued my luv of kung fu through the study of Pak Hok Kuen (Tibetan White Crane Kung Fu). even during this time i was studying Pak Hok and making great friends my eyes and heart always wanted to see what else was out there. i luved kung fu and i luved TWC. there were so many styles out there, so many different stories to tell. my interest in these other kung fu styles, martial arts lead me to go for free lessons or visiting other styles to look in Wing Chun, Praying Mantis, tae kwan do, karate, etc. but becos of my loyalty to my own kwoon i never went more than once or had more than my free lesson :). At this stage my only interest lay in having a broader idea of what else was out there, how other styles fought. unaware myself, i was actively engaging in one of the basic fighting principles one of my sifu would teach me:
know your enemy, know how they fight.

however, i ask u is this wrong? is it disloyal? must i ask my sifus everytime i go for a free lesson or a look for permission?

my kung fu journey lead me to Hong Kong. But before going, i was aware i would be travelling around Hong Kong and seeking new kung fu knowledge there and further broadening my horizons. I informed my sifu of this and also asked his permission - in particular i asked him whether it would be possible for me to learn from a particular man in Hong Kong who was also a sifu in Pak Hok and was my AUstralia sifu's sihing (as it turns out).

my sifu gave me permission to do so.
so fact: i went with his blessing.

arriving in Hong Kong shortly i made contact with this Pak Hok sifu who i would later also refer as my own sifu. I expected it to be a class basis and rang him up expecting him to be happy that i turn up and i would be an additional student. economies of scale so to speak ;). However, to my surprise this man told me to come to his kwoon first (on the phone) and did not happily accept me as i expected.
Fact: i never expected to find a new sifu in Hong Kong nor did i go there expecting this to occur.

that night i arrived at his gwoon at around 8pm. it was small, with full length mirrors, s weapons rack with every weapon imaginable. waiting for him and an older man to finish dinner he began to ask me questions in respect of my lineage and whether i had permission from my sifu to learn from him. for me it had suddenly become a bit too serious than i expected. having checked also with my sigong on the phone (Sigong Chan Hak Fu also gave me permission to learn and encouraged my hong kong sifu to teach me plus referred to my Australian Pak Hok Sifu in high regard) of my Australia's sifu's name he then began to show me some videos. i was shocked, amazed at the wealth of knowledge that i witnessed that nite. prior to that nite i was not aware or even thought about how much Pak Hok Pai there was to learn. after showing him my jin bo, pao bo, cup bo, and dan bin bo (which i partially forgot at the time) ;P
he accepted me as a student and began to teach me lau sing kuen (the shooting stars form). what followed was a tuff 2.5 months of kung fu training. where i trained 4-6 hrs 5-6 times a week. my experience in hong kong, seeing different martial arts, such as kung fu academies from china, pak hok practitioners from italy, philipines, hong kong, praying mantis from russia, hung gar, etc, my training under my hong kong sifu lead me to question myself, my kung fu path.

fact: my sigong, my sifu had given me permission to learn from my hk sifu - is this disloyal?

from that time onwards, even during the one to one training i received in hong kong. i learnt to question the material i was being taught to better understand what i was being given. my Hong Kong sifu actively encouraged this and also taught me applications. one time i was unfortunate to ask him what this funny kick and movement for the arm was in Lau sing kuen. he then showed me what it was for hehe by demonstrating it on me, after being taken down we both had a good laugh.

in short, my approach to kung fu had changed forever, it was a lifechanging experience. this training, this experience has lead me to question everything i am learning, everything i see. for instance - i play devils advocate in my search for more information in my recent posts on mongolian wrestling. my threads are not intended to insult or ridicule anyone or any style least of all a style that i belong to. it is a search for more knowledge, a greater understanding. i wanted to know more about mongolian wrestling in general as well as mongolian wrestling in TWC. that is my main goal. i know TWC has mongolian wrestling - but how much? what is the range in mongolian wrestling itself (regardless of TWC, Shui Chiao etc), is it all standup? i believe it has ground fighting but what basis i have for this conclusion? to be honest i do not know the answer myself. Sifu Steve Richards, Sifu David Ross are ppl who state that there is ground fighting in the styles derived from the Lion's Roar etc. etc etc...

my thread on sparring in Australia - with all the recent posts on san shou, my own sparring experience also lead me to ask questions about how many kung fu gwoons in Sydney actually have sparring in their training. it is not contempt at any kung fu style - it is another question i want to know the answer to. if u feel defensive of the questions i raise when there is no insult, no contempt, etc intended and nothing in my writings which suggest such things where does the true problem lie? it is certainly not becos i m disloyal.

question: is it disloyal to question? is it disloyal to seek more knowledge?

Do not be so proud that you think everything i say has some relationship with you. i say this because i do not wish to have to constantly justify myself nor have close friends of mine go out of their way to do so to defend my honour for topics that really have no relationship with u whatsoever. if u wish to close your eyes to the world that exists out there that is fine but do not criticize other people so easily just because they wish to keep theirs open and please stop misinterpreting things. I also request - have greater faith in your kung fu brothers something i have begun to lose...

TWC like the other lama styles has a wealth of knowledge to tap into. My goal is a simple one - to not let it die out, to not let it 'lose' bits and pieces here and there. to research etc and try to retain as much of it as i can as it currently exists as so left by ng siu zhong our si jo. in this journey there is no doubt i will study other styles along the way (altho' i hvae not yet done so so far).
loyalty is important but do not be so trapped in your personal ideals of what loyalty should be - as many have stated there are sifus of old who have studied under more than one sifu, some not having completed the style either. Each to their own. If u do not think this is the path u wish to follow that is fine - but why criticize other ppl who choose differently? do not try to make other ppl think your way is the only way.

as brothers in a gwoon do not force ppl to lose the friendships that they have built while a student in the gwoon. do not seek to criticise things u do not really understand. i m tired of justifying myself.

my Pai is Pak Hok Pai
i speak for myself

Friday

[David Jamieson]

Loyalty is a firm and constant support for a person or your country.

Often times, this support will remain even in the face of adversity or error.

Just as often, support can collapse in the face of adversity or error.

To remain loyal to another is a concious choice. You either are, or you are not loyal to someone else. It has more bearing on your attachment to that thing or person external to you than it does to you as a person.

Loyalty is a form of attachment to those things external to you.

peace

[dnc101]

My definition of loyalty: unwavering devotion to a person, organization, institution, idea/ideal, or other entity.

Sounds simple, but the application can be a little more complex, as illustrated in other posts here. It includes trust- in your style, school, instructor(s) and senior instructors; as well as their trust in you. Dedication and devotion are key elements. And following your own path is also an expression of loyalty.

I look at other styles of martial arts and try to glean some understanding of how and why they work. But I allways try to bring it back to my base. I look for where the principles overlap, and where they differ- and why. Where could they mesh? What are the strengths and weaknesses, and do their strengths address any weak areas in my style. I generally find that there is an answer within my style that I havn't developed yet. If I can't make an honest comparison between my style and others, then where is my trust in what I'm learning? I do this with the full knowlege of my instructor, and I discuss what I've learned with him. I trust his judgement, and value his knowlege and direction.

I don't advocate slighting your own style because you find some 'wisdom' in another. Dedicated training in your base is essential, as others have pointed out. Rather use any extra carricular study as an adjunct to help better understand your base. Devotion to your own style doesn't mean dissrespecting or ignoring others. Neither then does loyalty.

Some people study more than one style, and you could question their loyalty. The guy with a dozen yelow belts obviously has no loyalty. But what of the student who's studied two or three styles and does them well? I'd say loyalty starts within- "To thine own self be true (W.S.)." As long as he gets something from each that he needs or wants, and is honest with and respectful to all concerned, I'd say he's loyal. And taking from each to develope something that works for you is not disloyal either. For those pureists who wish to preserve an art, I respect and admire that. For those who want to use an art, internalizing and personalising the art, or arts, is necessary. So is understanding what you may come up against and how to handle it. If you're not loyal to yourself- if you are not getting personal fullfilment out of your studies, then it would likely be impossible to remain loyal to any one or thing for long.

[awakenwired]

I think some people confuse loyalty with respect. They often go hand in hand, but not always. I'm loyal to my Father. When I turned 18 I moved very quickly, against his wishes. You could say that was a form a disrespect, to go against his wishes, But if he were ever in trouble, or needed me, or I found someone hurting him I would help him because of loyalty. For as long as I am loyal i will always be there for him. Loyalty goes a bit deeper then simple respect, or adherence to someones rules or wishes. Dogs can be some of the most loyal pets around, but they will still s**t on the carpet if your not carefull. ;)

[Shadow Dragon]

Interesting replies so far.

What is Loyalty, love, hate, respect?
For me those are emotions that grow and refine themselves over time.
Do you feel the same love for your Wife as you did for her on your Engagement, after she gave birth to your off-spring??

The more I learn about my Sifu and his skill the more I respect and thus the more loyal I will be to him and what he taught me.
But this does not mean blind loyalty or devotion where I will jump on the Net to defend my Sifu's honour just because somebody said something, etc.
Loyalty like any other emotion can be a 2-edged sword and should be treated like this and re-evaluated when the situation demands so.
Do I need to fight my Sifu's battles, heck no, he is better than me that's why I study under him.
He is also able to kick my butt whenever I get out of line, but more often he chooses a kind word rather than a painful correction.

So am I loyal to my Sifu? Yes, I am.
Studying multiple styles is not being dis-loyal if done correctly and preferably with your Sifu somehow being invovled.

For me the bigget dis-loyalty you can do to your style/Sifu, is taking what he taught and creating a mixmatch with other stuff you learned, and than pasing this off as a superior method and teach it thus.
And thus watering down the MA.

Seeya.

[friday]

i think this is a really good post and is worthy of more attention :)

so lets revive it!!!

hey !! i didn't spend all that time b4 my exam typing up my 1500 word essay on loyalty only to have a small group of ppl to read it.

:P