Perception of the internal arts?

[Shaolindynasty]

On another board there is a thread, I was curious if you guys identifiy with any of the veiws here.

http://www.anyboard.net/rec/royaldragon/posts/593.html


The link is to the begining of the topic. It later degenerated into a sort of argument. Just would like anybody who practices internal arts opinon on this.

Thanks

[BSH]

Reasonable point. This person needs to find a Martial Art which is internal. You get the fight training at the same time you build your internal and learn some of the cool stuff.

Problem is: many people so they've got it, few do.

[Wu-Xing]

learn kick boxing and you will be able to fight ? eh...i aint even gonna touch that. basically the poster missed the point that not all people are scared little B1tches and want to learn to fight ASAP.I am a pretty good fighter, and was before i started xingyi.now im even better(not trying to blow my own horn,just making a point).And as for that year thing.you wont be amazing, but what you have learned will help you fight, although you may not realise it.It also depends on how much of your time you dedicate to quality study and training, not just "going through it" everyday so you dont feel guilty or lazy.

[Shaolindynasty]

Do you feel that both "internal and external" styles will develop similar qualities at a high level of practice?

Internal meaning the three styles of bagua, hsingyi, taichichuan

external meaning shaolin systems

[Walter Joyce]

At high levels I believe that there will be a similar level of skill and effectiveness, but very different qualities of movement.
Walter

[Ky-Fi]

Very well put, WJ.

That's exactly how I interpret the "internal eventually gets external, external eventually gets internal" idea. It doesn't mean every art will give you the exact same skills if you practice long enough, but it does mean you will reach a similar level of effectiveness.

[Shaolindynasty]

My thoughts exactly.

[Nexus]

Emptiness is apparently the first level and also the last. At high levels as one might say it is completely natural to the practitioner. Master Jou Tsung-Hwu talks about levels as the hand method, the torso method and the mind method.

A person could however already have emptiness and not the form, or a person could have the form and not emptiness. Certainly not an easy topic to understand without experience =)

[BSH]

Couldn't agree with you less.

If you don't train to get the internal, it won't just show up. Also, as you age, your body and muscles will deteriorate. However, the Internal will grow stronger and keep the body from deteriorating or at least slow the process.

Then again, many people refuse to believe that internal really exists. Who can blame them with all of the internal claims by many martial arts which aren't backed up.

Let me pose a question for those of you who believe in internal. How would external training ever give you the ability of moving an object without touching it?

[Nexus]

Ideally moving an object without touching is is "External" as the object is "external" from yourself. At the same time, the concept of internal training is embracing that although the process takes place within us, it is also interconnected to all things exterior from us.

I can move objects without touching them, but at the same time it is my perception of those objects moving that I am using to move the objects. Ever looked at something and then crossed your eyes? First it's right in front of you, then suddenly there is two of what you saw before and they are both to the left and right of where the object was to begin with. Now this concept might be frustrating and one might think, 'no no, that's not what i meant when I said move objects without touching them', and I would ask that person what particular sensory perception they value as a more accurate judge of where objects in space/time exist, their eyes or their sense of touch.

If it is your sense of touch then you are blind to everything that is not touching you, and hence you would be unable to move an object that you were not touching as you would be blind to that objects particular position without touching it. And if you were to move that object you would have to touch it to do so.

If it is your eyes you have to ask yourself if you are only perceiving it to be in a different space/time location - ie. the crossing eyes example.

To the topic of martial arts however, one might say that at a high level, you could move your opponent without trying to. Your opponent's aggressiveness might uproot them, or their fear might destabalize them. You may not have to exert any effort and still accomplish defending yourself, or you might exert a lot of effort and do a poor job of defending yourself.

To touch on your point however, I would also agree that it takes training and practice to develop the internal for most people. Here is an analogy my instructor once used to illustrate the theory of the internal being there without practice.

"80% of people placed with the obstacle of walking a tight rope from one side to the next would be unable to do so because they 'knew they could not walk the tight rope'. However there are 20% of people who might be able to walk the tight rope because they didn't know they couldn't.'

The same idea would apply to the internal. Remember that the t'ai chi and internal arts are helping an individual return to a natural state, however there are individuals who have cultivated that natural state through practices that are non-martially related.

- Nexus

[crumble]

What really is important is finding the best teacher, regardless of style, regardless of internal vs. external.

Not the best teacher in the world, but the best teacher according to your priorities, schedule, wealth, proximity, etc. Take your time choosing, ask around, VISIT!, and then decide.

And then train.

And every so often, re-consider your choices.

It's the same basic approach to living a good life.

- crumble

p.s. I visited my current teacher three years ago and said 'no way, this ain't for me' and then a year ago I said 'that's what I'm looking for'! I have no regrets for making either decision.

[Nexus]

Crumble,

That's a good point. Also it is very common that you will find a great teacher, and after about a year or so with them, realizing that many of his students whom had already been with him were teaching you without you even knowing it.