The 90% statistic of street fights going to the ground a myth?

[NorthernMantis]

Ok, I have seen "real" street fights before not some little altercation.From a gang fight with a knife to a teenage brawl with a bat. I have seen my fair share of street fights, not all types but some, and from what I can remember only once I saw a fight go to the ground and that was back in the 8th or 7th grade. At first when I heard it I thought it made sense but now that I think back I'm starting to be a bit skeptic. I'm sorry but I'm just not buying it.

What are your oppinions on this?

[DelicateSound]

Most fights are ended by a lucky punch, usually the guy to get in the first strike just keeps pounding.

They usually go to the ground if one guy rushes the other, like a tackle.

Never really happens though FME.

The Gracies made the claime because the Gracies probably can make over 50% of fight go to the ground. Or at least they could in the first year of UFC.

[Former castleva]

Good thing you thought about it,NMantis.;)
It´s allright (in my opinion) to question claims.
To say "this and that happens mostly or even only this and that way" I think,would be to create a set-up plan.
And when things don´t turn out the way one thought,that´s dangerous (and I don´t mean only one single area of martial arts,but others like life generally)
"Fight" is probably a chaos.

And there might be a point,maybe many fights end up on the ground...
Often fights end up with people lying on the ground...
One or some may walk away,some may go to ground,by those who make them go to ground...
So the moral of the story is-don´t go to ground,put them to the ground,and make sure they´ll stay there.;) ;) :D

Seriously again,
results may vary,and one has right to create claims,and it is not an easy thing to create direct facts about stuff like that.

[ReverendTim]

To me, the important question isn't about how likely it is that a fight's going to go to the ground--it's really that if it does go to the ground, do you have the tools to deal with it?

Though I've always been suspicious of the 90% statistic. How can that figure possibly be verified? Some scientists from the Department of Asskickings and Beatdowns compile the numbers for us?

--
Rev. Tim

[Dark Knight]

The number isnt exactly 90% but I forget what it was. The number comes from the Gracies, they did the stats based off of the experience of the LA police. But the nature of a police job is to take a person to the ground for control.

[Legendary_Fist]

I simply can't imagine someone attacking another person on the street if;

1. They aren't armed.

2.They don't have other people backing them up.

3.Don't believe that they could kill, or overpower their victim.


Please note, I'm not saying that groundfighting is useless, its definitely something invaluable for certain situations. Namely if you're a woman and you're about to be raped. In that situation, groundwork is essential.

On the streets? No way.

[logic]

I've taken ne-waza and now I'm going to be starting bjj in about a week.I have been in quite a few fights and I must say none of them ever went to the ground.

Not to say it couldn't and doesn't happen, I'm sure it does.I really never let it get that far.Once a striker learns some basic grappling techniques they increase their odds of ending a fight quickly.

Just my 2 cents:) :cool:

[Ryu]

I sometimes laugh at people who claim all streetfights are to the death matches with large numbers of people and weapons. They laugh at having statistics about going to the ground, but avidly jump at the chance to statistically prove all fights are with gun-toting old school gang members. :rolleyes:

"Streetfighting" is a word that gets thrown around so much I roll my eyes at it whether I hear the Gracies talking about it or traditionalists. There are many different types of "streetfights" You could be at a party and get into a fight one on one. You could be in a movie theatre or a single motorist at night, etc. There are TONS of "streetfights" that are one on one. To say that is never the case is just as stupid as saying 90% go to the ground. How do YOU know? You've seen a couple fights. So what? Almost everybody has. How many have you participated in? If you were attacked by 7 guys with knives, is that the "rule" of all streetfights?
Self-defense doesn't always entail being attacked while walking down a "dark alley" :rolleyes: There's lots of different scenarios. You can get into a fight at work, in college, out in public, in private, challenged, etc. There's so many different scenarios that it is silly to claim something one way or another. There's plenty of people who have had one on one streetfights. A lot of people DON'T want to get involved. Take a look at streetfights caught on camera. You'll see a great number of one on one fights as well as a great number of multiple attackers.
The bottom line is that you need to address as much as you can in the realm of self-defense, but also be able to be very proficient with what you do.

P.s. This post was not directed to anyone in particular. Just notions that I've started hearing a lot of.
Ryu

[Chang Style Novice]

Hey, I need work. Does the Department of Asskickings and Beatdowns have an Austin office?:p

On second thoughts, I really don't know if I want to go through the screening process.

[OdderMensch]

80% of all fights go to the ground
74% involve more than two people
93% end in injury
15% end in the hospital
3% end in death
34% involve weapons
34% are drug related
82% of the above are alchohol related
16% involve bonified psycotics




and of course as we all know




84.32% of all staictics are made up on the spot :D

[Ryu]

one on one fight
http://www.warriorcentral.com/images/headbutt.mov


one on one fight that goes to the ground
http://www.warriorcentral.com/images/bodyslam1.mov

one on one fight
http://www.warriorcentral.com/images/streetfight1.mov

one on one fight that goes to the ground
http://www.warriorcentral.com/images/streetfight2.mov

one on one fight that goes to the ground
http://www.warriorcentral.com/images/twopunks.mpg


and there is a host of other videos and police footage all over that depicts the same thing.
This is not trying to say multiple assailants and weapons are not a reality. But it is trying to say that the "one on one" with a violent person is NOT the myth some think it is.

Ryu

[Archangel]

Obviously 90% is a bit extreme but like Ryu said all those that claim that fights always involve multiples and violent weapons is wrong as well. Again the answer lies in the middle; I'm going to be a little controversial with this statement but hear it goes:

Some fights do go to the ground.... are you ready for it when it does?

[Dark Knight]

Namely if you're a woman and you're about to be raped. In that situation, groundwork is essential.

I have tought many women groundwork, and it does take strength that many small women do not posess. Women need to learn how to get away from the ground

[PHILBERT]

Well define "Going to the ground" and define "weapon". Weapon could be considered your hands, therefore the fight involves a weapon. Or it could be a projectile, maybe you throw some change at them to distract them, or a empty 20 oz coke bottle.

Also the 90% fight thing. I hit you 5 times, you hit me 3 times, I hit you 2 more times, you fall over onto the ground. Is that considered the 90% of all fights go to the ground? It doesn't say "goes to the ground to wrestle" it just says "goes to the ground" meaning one of the participants hit the ground.

[NorthernMantis]

Wow not a troll so far.

Ryu made some good points.

[Polaris]

Originally posted by Ryu
I sometimes laugh at people who claim all streetfights are to the death matches with large numbers of people and weapons. They laugh at having statistics about going to the ground, but avidly jump at the chance to statistically prove all fights are with gun-toting old school gang members.


I definetly agree.

[Le nOObi]

I pretty much agree on most points with ryu. I also think that the percentage of fights going to the ground has nothing to do with how people should train. I simply think this because when 2 people fight "on the street" chances are neither of them has incredible fighting experience. I think if 90% of fights go to the ground it would only be because 45%of people dont know how to stop themselves from going to the ground.

[guohuen]

Most of the "Oh yeah, you punk!" fights I've seen go to the ground with the larger person winning. I've never seen a mugging, robbery or "leg breaker" fight go to the ground.

[PHILBERT]

Ive never been in a street fight, nor seen one in front of me. I've seen 2 guys attack one another in a gas station. One guy pulled a knife and started swinging it at the other guy who used the hose from the gas pump to block the swings and jump back. The knife man hopped in his 1972 Ford truck and left. The man who was attacked filled his 1972 Ford truck, payed and left.

In my "school yard" fights, not really full forced fights, never once did I take one to the ground. The CLOSEST I've been to taking one to the ground was when I got shoved onto the teachers desk, quickly hopped off and started punching again.

Anyway, no matter how much statistics you read, you may NEVER be in a confrontation outside your home/dojo/kwoon. You may be in that % that never has to fight. Or if you do, it might end as soon as it started because Joe Blow over there acts all tough and you kick the crap out of him before he gets a move off. Who knows? You really can't tell what will happen until it happens.

[scotty1]

Doesn't matter what the odds are. Unless they are ridiculously low odds the situation should be trained for.

[BeiKongHui]

I've noticed the tendency in untrained guys (esp. bigger guys) who are getting wailed on to run in and try to smother their opponent and then fall on top of them.

[Merryprankster]

90% is probably inaccurate.

It's no more inaccurate than "I won't be taken down."

Basically, some fights go to the ground, and it's handy to have a few tools down there.

However--I've yet to see a fight that STARTED on the ground....

[les paul]

Originally posted by Legendary_Fist
I simply can't imagine someone attacking another person on the street if;

1. They aren't armed.

2.They don't have other people backing them up.

3.Don't believe that they could kill, or overpower their victim.


Please note, I'm not saying that groundfighting is useless, its definitely something invaluable for certain situations. Namely if you're a woman and you're about to be raped. In that situation, groundwork is essential.

On the streets? No way.





I think your in agreement for not advising a women to wrestle with her attacker (i.e. only while being raped as a last resort......right?)

At least that's how I'm reading your post...:)

This is one of the main problems with jujitsu. Size and strength does matter. No matter how good the technique, if your being over-powered your done for!


In relation to women and self-defense, modern jujitsu just doesn't stack up!


Nor does jujitsu cut the mustard when dealing with multiple attackers (such as gang bangers etc..... Maybe the traditional stuff does, but not the modern sport BJJ.

Last time I checked, thugs traveled in packs....hence the term 'My homies" or "them's my Boyz's"

These cyber jujitsu UFC groupies should ask thier hero's how well thier disipline fares on the street! Maybe they should ask Royce Gracie about his incounter with two guys in a night club in LA (early 1990's era when he was on top of his game). Or maybe they should ask the mighty Ken Shamrock what happens to you when you take two guys on in a hotel room.


I love those "hoaky" Black magizine articles where the grappler takes on multiple opponets. Jeeesh! I guess thier is a sucker on every street corner!

In real life (in my opinion only) UFC and BJJ are 0-2 (probably a lot more than 0-2 we just don't here about it!)

Royce Gracie was beat unmercifully till a group of bystanders came to his aid.

Ken Shamrock was hospitalizied for three days and was thrashed within an inch of his life.

As for a sport UFC/BJJ is real cool, if we exclude all the terrible injuries we see guys sustain while doing it!

[chingei]

Originally posted by les paul


This is one of the main problems with life. Size and strength does matter. No matter how good the technique, if your being over-powered your done for!

!

[Stacey]

Most people don't fight. The ones who do have a little kempo or some kind of karate/ boxing/ or wrestling.

Every fight is different. I know groundfighting, I think it would be kind of retarded to not learn it unless you were already at a high enough level that you could not be taken down.

[Merryprankster]

Les Paul,

You're wrong.

My first introduction to this game was getting mauled by a guy who I outweighed by over 60 lbs at the time--AND I had a wrestling background.

Of course if I'd done YOUR style of KF, I'm quite certain I would have learned how strength and size really DON'T matter, right? I would have had my ass kicked by a 110 lb girl, right? Gone flying backwards 8 feet when she hit me?


Thanks for playing our game! :rolleyes:

[Ryu]

I hope I have les paul with me in a real fight! HE could take on all those guys!

Thank God for striking arts. With them you can knock out 10 people all at once. Doesn't matter how big or strong they are. Size doesn't matter at all in the striking arts.
Thank god for em!

Ryu

[SevenStar]

I've got a better idea. I'll just become a ninja. then I could just flip out and cut my attacker's head off. That would be totally sweet.

[mortal]

The bigger they are the harder they fall!

[chingei]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Stacey


Every fight is different. I know groundfighting, I think it would be kind of retarded to not learn it unless you were already at a high enough level that you could not be taken down. [/QUOTE

]


there is no such level.

[chingei]

Originally posted by mortal
The bigger they are the harder they fall!

on you.

[Ben Gash]

This statistic is supposed to come from the police. I would suggest that the exact wording is that 93% of fights attended by the police have gone to the ground.
OK, most people can't punch. They flail wildy and catch glancing blows to the sides of each others heads. After a minute or two they are so tired that they can barely raise their arms. They then start hanging of each other and drag each other to the floor. Once there they have even less clue what to do and aimlessly try to punch each other and stop the other guy punching them.
By this time the police have turned up and haul them off to the station.
The police are not called to over 60% of fights. with response times the ones they are called to are often over when they get there. The rest are usually the situation above.
Of course that doesn't get students into your BJJ scool ;)

[Dark Knight]

This is one of the main problems with jujitsu. Size and strength does matter. No matter how good the technique, if your being over-powered your done for!

You need to see what Ju-Jitsu really is. The 80% of Ju-jitsu is standup, even the Ju-Jitsu people say that the BJJ people stay on the ground too long.


In relation to women and self-defense, modern jujitsu just doesn't stack up!

You need to find out what madern Ju-Jitsu is, its not GJJ or BJJ. Go to www.usjujitsu.net and order the World Ju-Jitsu Championship tape. I like the 1998 it put together better. here you will see what Ju-Jitsu is supose to look like. A well riounded fighting system with strikes throws and locks/submissions. its not a ground fighting style that everyone thinks.

Its a $20.00 investment that is a lesson on its own.


Nor does jujitsu cut the mustard when dealing with multiple attackers (such as gang bangers etc..... Maybe the traditional stuff does, but not the modern sport BJJ.

Again, buy the video. This statement is way off except for the "mabe the traditional stuff" BJJ is not modern Ju-Jitsu, its just another style. Also GJJ came from Judo and not from JJ.

My primary art is not Ju-jitsu. But too many people want to make opinions on arts (not just Ju-Jitsu) that they have little knowledge on.

I found kung Fu people who kick butt, Karate people, and TKD people. But I found them by trying to learn soemthing, not watching the local brown belt or crappy instructor.

There are better instructional tapes out there, but if you want to see what Ju-Jitsu looks like (I realize this is a sport competition, but it does a good job) the World championships have two divisions, Fighting, and self defense. In the self defense you can see a ton of techniques that represent good Ju-Jitsu.

Lose the ignorance, spend $20.00 and find out what else is out there.

[Kevin73]

The statistic as has been stated earlier is from LA police statistics on their uses of force and crimes. If the police get there to see a fight than chances are it's a bar situation or 2 neighbors going at it and there is probably alcohol involoved. I would term this as fighting, 2 people agreeing to beat the crap out of each other.

Assaults, would be situations that occur during the commission of another crime and one party does not wish to fight. (These are my definitions to help explain things).

Because like other people have stated, all fights are not multiples/weapons and such. Most involve alcohol and some perceived insult whether it's just "I don't like the way you look" or "You were looking at my girl".

I have worked for over 5 yrs in a jail that houses over 600 inmates, everything from multiple murders to not paying your child support. Most of those "fights" are over stuff like he took my chair in the tv room, those about 1/3 of the time go to the ground because they trip on themselves or something else. I've seen a few assaults where one inmate just comes up and starts beating another one, and not a single one of those have both people gone to the ground.

Best bet on the ground is practicing getting up safely/quickly and practicing escapes while you are mounted. Also, remember most BJJ techniques are felonies to do on someone because you can't just hold an armbar until they tap, you put it on to break their arm (assault with intent to do great bodily harm) and if you try to choke them out it's assault with intent to murder. Remember, assault IS NOT the physical act (that's battery) assault is ONLY THE PERCEIVED THREAT TO THE VICTIM. That is why those kids got something like 5-10 yrs in prison for shooting someone with a paint ball gun. In a self defense situation you can only use equal force which means even if he punches you that doesn't mean you can break his arm. (You really need to look at your local laws on what is self-defense in your area and what you have to do to actually claim it--hint: if you're arguing and he hits you first it's still not self-defense unless other elements are met.)

[Dark Knight]

Thanks for the input Kevin

[greendragon]

K73, if someone is punching me i will break their arm if i can despite the law. however once they are dis-abled i would not continue to harm them. .... I too began accepting the idea of most fights going to the ground, but thinking back, it's just not so. That false presumption did make me freshen up on my ground techniques though ! Great thread!

[Merryprankster]

chingei,

stop making sense. You're giving us knuckle dragging grapplers a bad name.

[jun_erh]

Police have
1. a baton
2. a radio to call for back-up
3. a gun
4. a badge (meaning if you punch them, most know it's a crime etc)

just that Police and reality always seem to be linked in these discussions.

[Cipher]

Some thing else to think about is that in general a cop can't beat some one, in general. A cop's object is going to be to put some one down and restrain them not to beat them sensless. Either that or it goes to the other extreme the perp is on the ground and the cop is beating the crap out of them.

[Legendary_Fist]

In my brief stint as a Judoka, I remember getting worked by bigger, larger peers. Simply put, I weighed about 195 lbs, and I practiced against guys who were twice my weight, and I simply could not throw them, or take them down.

However, when it came to Newaza, I could often outmanuever them and get them in choke holds, or arm locks.

However, I was almost 200 lbs, and I'm a relatively big guy myself. Despite that, oftentimes the bigger guys would simply have the weight advantage and completely dominate the situation. Their weight was simply a factor that was too large to overcome. I once saw a woman try to armbar the biggest guy in our Judo club, and he simply curled her as if she was nothing more than a dumbell.

In cases where the opponent has the strength advantage, I'd say striking vital areas, speed/agility, and/or using weapons is the best way to deal with a larger stronger opponents. Grappling only when ABSOLUTELY necessary.

[roughnready]

I believe most fights do end up on the ground. People who attack from behind and run shouldn't be really classified as a fight.

[chingei]

Originally posted by Legendary_Fist
In my brief stint as a Judoka, I remember getting worked by bigger, larger peers. Simply put, I weighed about 195 lbs, and I practiced against guys who were twice my weight, and I simply could not throw them, or take them down.

.

they weighed 400lbs?

[Ryu]

I weighed 180 when I was a judoka, and I threw and took down people who were in the 240 range.
Does that mean I'm superman? Maybe just that one person who can't perform something doesn't mean it's the rule for everyone.

Ryu

[les paul]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
Les Paul,

You're wrong.

My first introduction to this game was getting mauled by a guy who I outweighed by over 60 lbs at the time--AND I had a wrestling background.

Of course if I'd done YOUR style of KF, I'm quite certain I would have learned how strength and size really DON'T matter, right? I would have had my ass kicked by a 110 lb girl, right? Gone flying backwards 8 feet when she hit me?


Thanks for playing our game! :rolleyes:


Oh oh oh I'm so hurt! you hurt my feeling!!!!

You just keep that mind set!


Maybe you will find that prize in the Box of lucky charms your moma bought for you.


PS.... "It's time to get out of those star wars PJ's and let reality kick in."

[les paul]

Originally posted by Ryu
I hope I have les paul with me in a real fight! HE could take on all those guys!

Thank God for striking arts. With them you can knock out 10 people all at once. Doesn't matter how big or strong they are. Size doesn't matter at all in the striking arts.
Thank god for em!

Ryu

Oh man looks like I hit a nerve......What's the matter " little Ryu ?" Don't like it when someone talks bad about your hero's


That's Ok, you can help merryprankster pick out the marshmello's out of his lucky charms.

Both of you should have the summer off ....I think school's out isn't it?

You two should both see "Star Wars" together.

hahhahahahh!!!!!!!


Seriously, What is with you always posting on a kung fu net, when you claim that your into jujitsu, judo etc..etc..
Wouldn't you have better time chit chatting with people with the same martial arts back ground?


You know, "same likes and dislikes?"


Instead you parade around here with a jujitsu/ground fighting is the last word mentallity.

Hmm doesn't sound right.....

What's the matter? How come you are not over gabbing with the jujitsu guys?

Your waza poor?

You some low Kyu?

And, by the number of post you have to your credit "over a thousand ....whew" maybe I'm not too close to the truth

Cause when you training?

Huh?

[ReverendTim]

Hey, not for nothing, but it's the fact that this forum has so much interaction between kung fu practioners and well-spoken players of other disciplines that keeps me coming back. Heck, I find Ryu and Merrypranksters' posts to be *especially* engaging.

Maybe some people want a place where everybody just reinforces everybody else's preconceived notions, but I for one like being challenged to evaluate what I think and what I do by people with different perspectives. I know that I am *quantifiably* a better martial artist than I was before I started reading this forum because of the questions the non-kung fu posters made me have to answer about my own practice.

So don't nobody go nowhere, okay?

--
Rev. Tim

[chingei]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
chingei,

stop making sense. You're giving us knuckle dragging grapplers a bad name.

me sorry.

[Merryprankster]

Actually Les Paul, if you'd bothered to read any of "our" other posts, you'd find out that we disagree with ignorance, poor training, and bad logic regardless of where it comes from.

It's not limited to BJJ, as you have so amply demonstrated.

You certainly lend some credence to my Bertrand Russell quotation in the signature.

But, if you want to be a "true believer," unswayed by the godless heathens among you, feel free. I happen to think that what everybody here does has merit, provided training includes beating the crap out of each other on a regular basis.

[Water Dragon]

I’d like to bring up a couple of points here that I view as inaccurate. If I quote you, it’s not to insult you. It’s simply to provide a point of reference for my response:

>>From a gang fight with a knife to a teenage brawl with a bat.<<

This is pretty much the same thing. Most gangsters you see in the street are right around 14-15 years of age. In addition, belonging to a gang does not make you a bad @ss. I’ve seen more than my share of gangsters who are big pu$$ies. The guy you want to look out for is the “killer”. The guy who will pull out a gn and shoot you for no reason at all. If you run into this guy, I don’t care what you practice. It wont help you.

>>This is one of the main problems with jujitsu. Size and strength does matter. No matter how good the technique, if your being over-powered your done for!


In relation to women and self-defense, modern jujitsu just doesn't stack up!<<

I had my @ss handed to me during my second BJJ class by a 5’1” 120 lb girl. I am a 6’1” 185 lb male. The girl basically played with me. She had been training for 2 ½ years.

I also routinely thrash my 6’2” 240 lb Brother-in-law on the ground. I can throw him as well, b ut that is much harder. It is much easier to stop him from hurting me on the ground. And isn’t that the point really?

>>Last time I checked, thugs traveled in packs....hence the term 'My homies" or "them's my Boyz's"<<

This one is simply false. At least in Gary, IN East Chicago, IN or the South Side of Chicago. I truthfully can’t recall seeing a group of more than 5 on “the streets”. Of course, if you frequent gang parties there will be more. But if you frequent gang parties, you pretty much get what you deserve.

And one point from me. The single most important street applicable tech I’ve ever learned came from BJJ. It’s called an Upa. Someone else can describe it if they want.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

it's where you throw up in their eyes and break their neck while they are blinded and paralyzed with disgust.

[Knifefighter]

I see the same old arguments are still going on here. Things never change, do they? Actually, maybe some things do, I think. Dark Night, didn't you used to be anti-BJJ/MMA?

Anyway, I've come to the conclusion that you should train for what you think is important to you and/or what you think is fun. If the ground isn't your thing, don't do it. If it is, don't worry about the guys who don't want to.

I train on the ground for the following reasons:

I never backed away from a fight when I was younger and, as a result, had probably close to 30 fights by the time I was 25 or so. All of them except for one went to the ground.

I've found it's a great addition to my arsenal to be able to take things to the ground at will and to know what to do once things end up there.

I don't think I've done too many things that are as much fun as ground fighting/grappling.

I've trained with/against weapons for a long time and knowing the ground game has at least doubled my ability in this area.

[KnightSabre]

My girlfriend 5'7 121 has been grappling for about 3 years,she often comes to my school to grapple with the guys who have been training for 6 months or more.
My one student 6'0 203 and can bench over 310, can't do anything to her on the ground,sure she struggles to tap him out simply because he knows about submissions,but she sweeps him regularly has taken his back on numerous occasions and kept him tied up in her guard.
If he had no training at all she would tap him out easily.

I think size and strength matters but only when technique is equal.

An example would be the time a heavyweight kickboxer came into the gym to learn some ground fighting he was 6'4 and 275,
now I'm not small at 6'0 220 but when we grappled I basically played with him,it suprised me as much as him.

Then a while later Mark Robinson (Abu Dhabi winner) came to train with us.
This guy is 5'11 and 300 (little fat).He benches arround 600 (he's one of those world strongest guys).
I grappled with him and allthough I lasted 4 minutes before tapping I was unable to put him in any danger and merely defended using superior speed.
The guy was bigger stronger and skilled.

So yeah if you meet someone thats bigger and stronger than you and also has good technique,then you're in trouble.

One of the reasons that I supplement my training with weights is I understand that technique is good,but technique with strength is better.

[scotty1]

"One of the reasons that I supplement my training with weights is I understand that technique is good,but technique with strength is better."

So true, and very well said.

Like Knifefighter said- groundfighting, if you want to learn it, do it, if you don't, don't.

But it IS a DISTINCT possibility that you're going to end up there.

Them's the facts, do what you will with them.

[KnightSabre]

Scotty1,

So true,

I can compare the knowledge of ground fighting for a martial artist, to a bullet proof vest for a cop,it's not a certainty that he will get shot in the body,but if he does? well atleast he has the protection,the same goes for the martial artist, theres no guarantee that he will get taken down,but if it happens the ground knowledge is his vest.

[scotty1]

Good analogy. If the cop gets shot without a vest, he's fu*ked, but if hes weaering a vest he can continue the fight.

I like it.

[Dark Knight]

Dark Night, didn't you used to be anti-BJJ/MMA?

Not me, Ive been involved with grappling and cross training for years. Im also on the board of a major JJ federation.

[Dark Knight]

BTW, I also believe before you start cross training, get a couple years behind you in a style to have a solid base before trying something else. Otherwise you never get good at anything.

I meet people like this al the time Purple Belt in TKD, Blue belt in Shotokan, green Belt in Goju....

Nothing advanced. Get black in something, then spend a few years working on it from there, then think about other arts.

Some style do work well together at the same time, but not usually.

[les paul]

Originally posted by ReverendTim
Hey, not for nothing, but it's the fact that this forum has so much interaction between kung fu practioners and well-spoken players of other disciplines that keeps me coming back. Heck, I find Ryu and Merrypranksters' posts to be *especially* engaging.

Maybe some people want a place where everybody just reinforces everybody else's preconceived notions, but I for one like being challenged to evaluate what I think and what I do by people with different perspectives. I know that I am *quantifiably* a better martial artist than I was before I started reading this forum because of the questions the non-kung fu posters made me have to answer about my own practice.

So don't nobody go nowhere, okay?

--
Rev. Tim



I don't think it's wrong for someone to "sometimes" posts on a news group from a different style. (once in a while.) And maybe offer some advice from a different view point.


However.......


If you check their number of posts vs what they actually say ....you come to the conclusion that they are not really interested in Kung Fu. There here to laud over you and tell you how great Jujitsu is or how skilled they are in ground fighting.

Come on, one guys name id RYU! what's the Japenese name for style/school have to do with CMA's.....Nothing! nor does most of his posts!




So why does he post here? You tell me?

Seem's to me, if he was into something like Hokuryu Jujitsu etc etc... he would be over on some jujitsu news group shooting the **** with those guys.

Instead he's over here telling you and me that CMA's lack substance!

Judging by the number of posts he accumulated here....I dought he posted on a different news group.

Again, why are guys like him here if there not into CMA's.

Could it be that they are not really into jujitsu (cause if they were they would probably be posting on a news group with other jujitsuka)

If they are not really into jujitsu (i.e. they don't study/practice jujitsu) What are they?

[SevenStar]

Ryu is one of the most knowledgable posters here - maybe you should hang around longer before you snap judge anything. Also, what's in a name? My base style is muay thai. I originally only got into longfist because I needed something to train in as MT the old MT school closed. My name is what? SevenStar - I don't train in sevenstar mantis and don't plan to.

There is nothing wrong with posting on a forum that is outside of your style. my training now is mostly judo/shuai chiao and bjj - but I will continue to post here as long as there are good topics.

[les paul]

Originally posted by Water Dragon
I’d like to bring up a couple of points here that I view as inaccurate. If I quote you, it’s not to insult you. It’s simply to provide a point of reference for my response:

>>From a gang fight with a knife to a teenage brawl with a bat.<<

This is pretty much the same thing. Most gangsters you see in the street are right around 14-15 years of age. In addition, belonging to a gang does not make you a bad @ss. I’ve seen more than my share of gangsters who are big pu$$ies. The guy you want to look out for is the “killer”. The guy who will pull out a gn and shoot you for no reason at all. If you run into this guy, I don’t care what you practice. It wont help you.

>>This is one of the main problems with jujitsu. Size and strength does matter. No matter how good the technique, if your being over-powered your done for!


In relation to women and self-defense, modern jujitsu just doesn't stack up!<<

I had my @ss handed to me during my second BJJ class by a 5’1” 120 lb girl. I am a 6’1” 185 lb male. The girl basically played with me. She had been training for 2 ½ years.

I also routinely thrash my 6’2” 240 lb Brother-in-law on the ground. I can throw him as well, b ut that is much harder. It is much easier to stop him from hurting me on the ground. And isn’t that the point really?

>>Last time I checked, thugs traveled in packs....hence the term 'My homies" or "them's my Boyz's"<<

This one is simply false. At least in Gary, IN East Chicago, IN or the South Side of Chicago. I truthfully can’t recall seeing a group of more than 5 on “the streets”. Of course, if you frequent gang parties there will be more. But if you frequent gang parties, you pretty much get what you deserve.

And one point from me. The single most important street applicable tech I’ve ever learned came from BJJ. It’s called an Upa. Someone else can describe it if they want.

You have had your @ss handed to you by a 5'1' 120 lbs women?

Man, your waza must suck!

Sometimes Waterdragon you talk a lot of crap! Makes me think you really don't know a lot.

Are you really ready to admit that in a knock down drag-out fight on the street that that women would kick your butt?

If yes, then you must not be able to fight your way out of a wet paper bag!

Somehow, I really dought that!

Answer me this "what's a white boy on the west side of Chicao know about gangs?"

Nothing!

I know where you train....right in the middle of the burbs....do you forget that you sent me a flyer for a seminar one time?


Seems to me, RYU and merryprankster like to throw around terms (and even you) like "ground and pound" etc etc....

Then when a guy like me tells you that size and strength does matter you tell me I'm full of crap!

Which is it?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by WaterDragon

"One thing I'm beginning to figure out is:Those who fight are interested in anything that works, no matter the source. If you can clean someone's clock, they respect that and the art that did it.

Those who don't respect other arts have not fought. They may convince themselves otherwise, but that's in their own little world."

Think about it...

[DelicateSound]

Les Paul, you're slandering Ryu, Merry and WaterDragon, three of the most informative posters on this board. Maybe you should READ what they have to say first...:rolleyes:

[Le nOObi]

Originally posted by les paul


Are you really ready to admit that in a knock down drag-out fight on the street that that women would kick your butt?

If yes, then you must not be able to fight your way out of a wet paper bag!


Answer me this "what's a white boy on the west side of Chicao know about gangs?"




Wow your probably the most ig'nint person posting on these boards! Not only are you sexist but your racist as well!

In my opinion Ryu and merryprankster deserve to be here more than you because they dont make talk trash about other peoples styles. I think people like merry prankster / ryu are a valuable resource and i hope they continue to post at KFO.

[SevenStar]

"Answer me this "what's a white boy on the west side of Chicao know about gangs?"

Nothing! "

I'll bite on that one since WD ain't on right now... when the white boy spent his time in gary, hammond, etc. you can get to learn alot real fast when it comes to gangs. The seminar you're referring to was at a local school with a d@mn good rep - maybe you should train there, or anywhere where you can actually train instead of merely trying to bad mouth people.

[SevenStar]

Actually, before you train, you should hit the local elementary school and undertake some intensive spelling training.

[les paul]

Originally posted by SevenStar
Ryu is one of the most knowledgable posters here - maybe you should hang around longer before you snap judge anything. Also, what's in a name? My base style is muay thai. I originally only got into longfist because I needed something to train in as MT the old MT school closed. My name is what? SevenStar - I don't train in sevenstar mantis and don't plan to.

There is nothing wrong with posting on a forum that is outside of your style. my training now is mostly judo/shuai chiao and bjj - but I will continue to post here as long as there are good topics.


What is he, one of your hero's?



Are you really telling me

There is nothing wrong with over a thousand posts, most of them putting down CMA's in one way or another?

Also I think it's sad that you think he is one of the most knowledgable posters here. You haven't been training long have you? If you have, man you must be gullable.

Are you telling me, you don't see anything wrong with a guy who is into Jujitsu posting as much as he does here.


I'm not just picking on just him.......there are a lot of others just like him, excluding Ralek he's a troll's troll.

Question

Do you post on a jujitsu news group?

Over a thousand times?

Telling them that they had better get a stand up game?

I bet you don't!






I think you get my point!


A least I hope you do


Oh one last thing........as far as hanging around goes....I remember when Ryu showed up!

so no newbie is I

get it!

[DelicateSound]

So when exactly has Ryu ever slandered CMA? Search his name and see. You won't find anything I can guarantee you. Yes he studies BJJ. Big deal? He knows what he's on about, and that's a hell of a lot more than you judging on current form.



Why don't you check your facts before slandering people. Not every BJJ'er is a Ralek-style, CMA-hating = neanderthal.



He's a rational guy, who's studied a few arts in the past and takes a more universal stance to the Style vs Style debate.


Unlike your ignorant self it seems......

[les paul]

Originally posted by DelicateSound
Les Paul, you're slandering Ryu, Merry and WaterDragon, three of the most informative posters on this board. Maybe you should READ what they have to say first...:rolleyes:


I not slandering anybody that didn't kick me in the teeth first.

Read all the posts then you decide.

As far as playgrounds & gangs......what the **** is that?

I live in Detroit..... "who here on this net has got the ball's to tell me about gangs?" the only people I know, is Black daoist and his crew...

who are you?

[les paul]

Originally posted by DelicateSound
So when exactly has Ryu ever slandered CMA? Search his name and see. You won't find anything I can guarantee you. Yes he studies BJJ. Big deal? He knows what he's on about, and that's a hell of a lot more than you judging on current form.



Why don't you check your facts before slandering people. Not every BJJ'er is a Ralek-style, CMA-hating = neanderthal.



He's a rational guy, who's studied a few arts in the past and takes a more universal stance to the Style vs Style debate.


Unlike your ignorant self it seems......


Again I'm put the question to you!!!!!!!!!!!

You don't find it fishy that a guy who claimes he's into Jujitsu posts over a thousand times on the CHINESE MARTIAL ARTS NEWS GROUP!!!!!!!!!!!

PUT THE CRACK PIPE DOWN!!!!!!

[SevenStar]

Ryu slanders CMA? where have you ever seen that?

Is he my hero? no. Do I have respect for him as a martial artist? very much so. If he was slandering CMA, it would be different, but has not. many of his posts concern himself and his "awakenings" that he's had during his training. He and MP provide alot of good insight to the forum, and from a perspective that alot of CMA may be ignorant to.

[SevenStar]

Also, one small correction - Ryu doesn't claim to be into jiu jitsu - he is into his own style and perfecting his skills. this includes judo, jkd, boxing and whatever else he's trained in over the years and found useful to HIMSELF.

[DelicateSound]

Read all the posts then you decide.

I have and I have. I've been following this post sine the start. Notice how the second reply is mine.

As for the retaliation, when you make a series of blanket statements regarding arts you have little or no experience of on either the street or in the dojo, what do you expect.


From profile:

I'm a "know it all" and admit it. please let me know if I'm acting like a jerk!

'Fraid so in this situation. I'm not a BJJ/JJJ guy, but I have a respect for the grappling arts. Ryu and MPS have respect for the striking arts, they just don't buy into the death-touch/super secret skill mentality of many CMA's.

ANY stlye can work on the street, you just have to make it work. Don't dismiss something like BJJ out of blind prejudice.

[DelicateSound]

I live in Detroit..... "who here on this net has got the ball's to tell me about gangs?" the only people I know, is Black daoist and his crew...

Well Congratulations to you. By living in Detroit you MUST be hard.

I could say that I live in statistically the "worse" city in the UK, with the highest number of incidents of assault and racially motivated violence. The city with one of the highest ratings of racial dis-integration. The city with the fifth highest percentage of illegal firearms and the fourth highest percentage of illegal close combat weapons.

Does that by itself make me "hard". Do I suddenly know all about gang violence because I'm surrounded by it. NO.

In contrast, Ryu and MPS have shown consistently over months/years of posting here that they have a wealth of knowledge. Not because they live somewhere "rough" but because they train hard and train extensively to find out what works.

[Dark Knight]

Are you telling me, you don't see anything wrong with a guy who is into Jujitsu posting as much as he does here.


No, but I do see something wrong with a CMA board that is obsessed with BJJ and grappling arts.

I am not primarily CMA, I hav studied many nstyles and like coming here for the broad views on other styles.

You seem insecure on your own skills and style.


"One thing I'm beginning to figure out is:Those who fight are interested in anything that works, no matter the source. If you can clean someone's clock, they respect that and the art that did it.

You should think about this again


Those who don't respect other arts have not fought. They may convince themselves otherwise, but that's in their own little world."

Thats the impression you have made of yourself.

[Le nOObi]

Seven star- if one of the main style your learning is shuai chiao you are not at all posting on a forum outside your style shuai chiao is a kung-fu style after all!

[Ryu]

Well damm, guys! :cool: What can I say? Thanks so much for the support. (Makes me misty eyed *sniff sniff* :D )

I guess this rant might be in relation to my rather sarcastic remark about Les Paul taking on 10 guys. I'll apologize for that, but the only reason I said it was because the excuse of "grappling can't fight 10 guys!" is so overdone, and doesn't have a lot of thought behind it.

I've never once put down CMA. I come to this board because I find the posters here very friendly, funny, and seem to have good character. I like that in people, so I have fun here.
To answer your question, yes I also post on jiu-jitsu and judo forums like Mousel's forum and E-budo from time to time.
However I like the PEOPLE here the best I guess.

:D All this talk about me is gonna make my head swell though guys

Ryu

[scotty1]

" I'm a "know it all" and admit it. please let me know if I'm acting like a jerk! "

Jerk. You don't know sh!t.

Ryu has contributed 1052 posts worth of good discussion and info to the board.

You have contributed 152 posts worth. I can't remember any of your previous posts, but if they are all along the standard of "I can beat 10 guys" then i don't think I'll bother.

You wouldn't go into a bar or pub and start bad mouthing the locals without expecting to get beat up. So don't expect any help doing it here.

Yes this is a Kung Fu board, and there is a lot of kungfu talk, but the people here are broad minded and willing to address the realities of modern fighting.

Fugging weirdo.

[fightfan]

Ryu is a class act. He sure the hell doesnt deserve a internet tough guy unloading his gang wannabe BS on him.

So what big bad gang are you down with? Are you a Beecher creature? Oh wait thats Lansing... how could I get those two confused? Bwahahaha...
:D

[Water Dragon]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by les paul


You have had your @ss handed to you by a 5'1' 120 lbs women?

Man, your waza must suck!

No, but I am saying that I feel this women could handle someone who took her down, positioned himself between her legs, and try to have his way with her. To me, that's more self defense than a knockdown, drag out fight.

Answer me this "what's a white boy on the west side of Chicao know about gangs?"

You know what, I wish I didn't. I also wish I didn't have to bury someone very close to me this April because he was shot at point blank range by a 17 year old punk. My white skin didn't save me from having to deal with that. Don't misunderstand me, I do my best to stay out of trouble. But that doesn't mean I don't see or hear what's going on around me. There's a lot of people here who don't have to see that, thank God. I simply try to provide what happens in my environment as accurately as possible. Doesn't make me a thug or a bad @ss, I'm neither.


I know where you train....right in the middle of the burbs....do you forget that you sent me a flyer for a seminar one time?

If you've read my posts, you also know I drive over an hour to get to the Northern 'burbs to train. The instruction is worth it.

I'm not sure what got into you Paul, I've never slandered you and in fact, pointed out that I was NOT doing so before my post. I don't know why you're so offended, but what I wrote is simply the truth as I see it. I've never bad mouthed you and I'm not going to start now. You, of course, may refer to me however you feel you need to.

[DelicateSound]

[sniff] I need a group hug guys........ [sniff] :D


WD: Sorry to hear about your friend, That's bad sh!t man. I'm sure Les Paul would have saved him and the free world though :rolleyes:



Peace guys.

[ewallace]

Actually, Ryu acts like the nice, sensitive, chivalrous type. But do not be fooled, this is only to lure the unsuspecting women of chinese martial arts into his home where he performs brutal hypnotic rituals in order to convert them into grapplers.

[rogue]

How come when Ryu speaks English his lips don't sync with the words?

Ryu's favorite pick up line to Japanese girls, "Hey baby, wanna see Godzilla?";)

Second favorite, "Of couse I'm a master of Iai do, wanna see me draw my sword?"

[Black Belt Jones 1]

Although Ryu is often mistakably referred to as an individual belonging to what we once called the "NHB Mafia" I don't think he has blatenly slandered any posters other than maybe taking on a few people who were claiming a bunch of crap that was so ludicrous it was obviously a lie. Trust me Les Paul. About a year ago this board was filled with a whole cabal of loser NHB guys/gals that would have done 10 times worse to you given half the chance. Many were suspect of using fake, multiple Ids to perpetrate their B.S. and make it look like they were in the majority. Thats one of the reasons that me and many others just quit posting here. Looks like things have maybe turned around though and maybe I'll start posting again.

[Water Dragon]

Ryu's nothing but a big GrEEK ,LOL

Ryu, aren't you in San Antonio? If so, I'm coming to see ya in July Big Boy.

[gano_b]

what happens to the 10 percent that doesn't go to the ground... do they just quit and go get a beer?

Maybe 90 percent do go to the ground....

but 100 percent start standing up... well unless you get bizatch slapped while your sitting down I guess. :)

[les paul]

Originally posted by Dark Knight



No, but I do see something wrong with a CMA board that is obsessed with BJJ and grappling arts.

I am not primarily CMA, I hav studied many nstyles and like coming here for the broad views on other styles.

You seem insecure on your own skills and style.



You should think about this again



Thats the impression you have made of yourself.

That's just it, This board is obsessed with guys who think ground and pound is the end all to be all. Reality is far more complex than that. The ground game isn't as "prime time" as people think is (at least on this net)

I personnally don't get intimidated by a guys who knows what a Hiji waza is, so Cyber jiujtsu wannabe don't sweat me. As far as an impression I've given you or others.....please this is a net news group. I'm not going to stunt your ego nore you mine by not giving you props (expecially if there not due...) I'm not posting here to have my ego stroked...the number of times I've posted here should indicate this.
As far as experience goes, I've got plenty. Just because I don't walk and talk your "mojo" on this net doesn't mean anything.

Nice try.....

[les paul]

Originally posted by Water Dragon
[QUOTE]Originally posted by les paul


You have had your @ss handed to you by a 5'1' 120 lbs women?

Man, your waza must suck!

No, but I am saying that I feel this women could handle someone who took her down, positioned himself between her legs, and try to have his way with her. To me, that's more self defense than a knockdown, drag out fight.

Answer me this "what's a white boy on the west side of Chicao know about gangs?"

You know what, I wish I didn't. I also wish I didn't have to bury someone very close to me this April because he was shot at point blank range by a 17 year old punk. My white skin didn't save me from having to deal with that. Don't misunderstand me, I do my best to stay out of trouble. But that doesn't mean I don't see or hear what's going on around me. There's a lot of people here who don't have to see that, thank God. I simply try to provide what happens in my environment as accurately as possible. Doesn't make me a thug or a bad @ss, I'm neither.


I know where you train....right in the middle of the burbs....do you forget that you sent me a flyer for a seminar one time?

If you've read my posts, you also know I drive over an hour to get to the Northern 'burbs to train. The instruction is worth it.

I'm not sure what got into you Paul, I've never slandered you and in fact, pointed out that I was NOT doing so before my post. I don't know why you're so offended, but what I wrote is simply the truth as I see it. I've never bad mouthed you and I'm not going to start now. You, of course, may refer to me however you feel you need to.


Your original post was designed to "bust my balls" just like Ryu's and Merryprankster's. All you were trying to do was get "the last snap in " between the other two.

Who you foolin.....

Nice sad story, but unfortunatly I've seen enouph of that crap to last me three life times.


So I'm kind of insensetive to those stories.

Sorry you had to experience it......

Oh....

I'm lost as to where is the answer to my question is in your reply.....


Your "chin music" is getting pointless.........

[les paul]

Originally posted by Ryu
Well damm, guys! :cool: What can I say? Thanks so much for the support. (Makes me misty eyed *sniff sniff* :D )

I guess this rant might be in relation to my rather sarcastic remark about Les Paul taking on 10 guys. I'll apologize for that, but the only reason I said it was because the excuse of "grappling can't fight 10 guys!" is so overdone, and doesn't have a lot of thought behind it.

I've never once put down CMA. I come to this board because I find the posters here very friendly, funny, and seem to have good character. I like that in people, so I have fun here.
To answer your question, yes I also post on jiu-jitsu and judo forums like Mousel's forum and E-budo from time to time.
However I like the PEOPLE here the best I guess.

:D All this talk about me is gonna make my head swell though guys

Ryu


I give huge props and what's owed to you!

This brother is impressed.

An apology by me is up front!

It takes a "man" to say that he made a "Sarcastic remark" ......cause that's how I took it (i.e. low shot to the groin ...Blam!)

You got gut's and real character.



I respect that and judging by your post, I can see why some of these guys came to your defense.

Given the number of jujitsu trolls on this net and the fact I do not come here often......


I've misjudged you, there is "real" strength in your words

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by les paul


That's just it, This board is obsessed with guys who think ground and pound is the end all to be all. Reality is far more complex than that. The ground game isn't as "prime time" as people think is (at least on this net)

I personnally don't get intimidated by a guys who knows what a Hiji waza is, so Cyber jiujtsu wannabe don't sweat me. As far as an impression I've given you or others.....please this is a net news group. I'm not going to stunt your ego nore you mine by not giving you props (expecially if there not due...) I'm not posting here to have my ego stroked...the number of times I've posted here should indicate this.
As far as experience goes, I've got plenty. Just because I don't walk and talk your "mojo" on this net doesn't mean anything.

Nice try.....

Who here has ever said that ground and pound is the be all end all? It's merely an aspect of fighting that people like to train.

[Merryprankster]

Les Paul,

Break your balls? I don't know about that. But Ryu's right--it's the same argument we hear all the time--can't handle 10 people at a time.

Yeah, well, odds are against you in that kind of situation no matter what--nothing really confers an advantage at that point, but proper use of your head. Was my remark sarcastic? Yup...probably needlessly so. But for every person on here who has a realistic view about what a person, regardless of training, can or cannot do, we get about 5 or 6 who really do believe that somebody trained in "their style," can defeat all comers, in any amount.

It gets tiresome.

Now as far as being a tough guy, I cry at sappy movies and decorate my house entirely in pink and frilly lace. :)

Besides which, I don't consider myself to be some sort of bad-ass real streetfighter. I'm a sport artist and I try not to get the two confused.

So, not to be a "me too," but me too. :) Didn't mean to come on so strong--it wasn't required.

[dbulmer]

I am not sure if the statistics are right but I know when we freespar in our class we sometimes try to grapple - sometimes intentionally sometimes not. I am with Scott1 and the grapplers. I do think you have to train it as being on the ground is a scenario most standup guys just don't want to be in. For me, your MA has to take into account different levels of skill and also the strength of the opponent. Flexibility in adversity is something I think all arts aspire to.

It's less likely that you'd face a Skilled fighter on the street but it doesn't mean you should not train for it.

Got to rush, Mrs is demanding attention!

[rogue]

"Now as far as being a tough guy, I cry at sappy movies and decorate my house entirely in pink and frilly lace."

Uhhhh Merry?:confused: You aint watching too much HGTV, Oxygen and Trading Spaces are you bro?:eek:

[Merryprankster]

Re: Oxygen...

Two Words: Women's Judo.


I wish I got that channel....

[Le nOObi]

Hey i get oxygen when is womens judo on?

[Ryu]

They got judo on that channel???!! *calling cable service*

(I'm serious...)


Ryu

[rogue]

Are they topless and wearing thongs! :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

I get Oxygen, what time. So far all I get are show starring Tyne Dally!:(

[SevenStar]

did anyone find out when it comes on?

[MA fanatic]

You guys are correct. This statistic, however, was not researched or claimed by grapplers. The original stat was calculated by I believe LA Police department. If it wasn't LA, it could have been NYPD. That statistic had nothing to do with street fighting. It had to do with controlling a subject resisting arrest. That statistic somehow made it's way to various martial arts magazine publications. Many many many, year later, the Gracies made a claim that "in a one on one NHB event, a grappler will always take a striker down." Those claims are in fact true and undisputed. Of course most street fights end with a first punch. Most fights are not even fights, they are ambushes. Most fights where weapons are used, the weapon is felt before it is seen. No one fights fairly anymore!!!
MA fanatic

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by MA fanatic
You guys are correct. This statistic, however, was not researched or claimed by grapplers. The original stat was calculated by I believe LA Police department. If it wasn't LA, it could have been NYPD. That statistic had nothing to do with street fighting. It had to do with controlling a subject resisting arrest. That statistic somehow made it's way to various martial arts magazine publications. Many many many, year later, the Gracies made a claim that "in a one on one NHB event, a grappler will always take a striker down." Those claims are in fact true and undisputed. Of course most street fights end with a first punch. Most fights are not even fights, they are ambushes. Most fights where weapons are used, the weapon is felt before it is seen. No one fights fairly anymore!!!
MA fanatic

Amen