Anyone ever use iron rings in their Wing Chun?

[IronFist]

I know normally they're for Hung Gar or whatever, but I read that Bruce Lee showed them to Yip Man and Yip Man thought they were pretty cool because you could to tan sao with downward pressure on it or something.

Just wondering if anyone has ever tried this and thought it was decent or what?

IronFist

[yuanfen]

Some stories never die- they get passed around through broken telephones. Iron rings- IMO do not enhance wing chun motions.

[vingtsunstudent]

up, down, to the sides, no thanx.
just foward.
vts

[IronFist]

I dunno if it's a story or not. I have a picture of Yip Man doing tan sao with some rings on his forearm.

:confused:

IronFist

[sunkuen]

post em'

[IronFist]

Might that be copyright infringement? It's in Volume 2 of that series "the Bruce Lee Library" by John Little or whatever his name is. You know the series, there's "Words of the Dragon," "Tao of Gung Fu (it's in this one)" "Jeet Kune Do" "(something I forgot)" "Art of Expressing the Human Body" etc. Or maybe that last one is number 4, I forgot. Anyway, I'm about to go to bed, but tomorrow when I check I'll give you the page number so you can go to Borders and see yourself :)

Night everyone,

IronFist

[IronFist]

I just checked. It's on page 108 of "Tao of Gung Fu." Next time you're at a bookstore check it out.

IronFist

[kungfu cowboy]

Oooooh, spooky! On page 108!

[IronFist]

Dude, I know right? I looked it up last night before I went to sleep and I was like "I wonder if I'll remember the page number tomorrow." Then when I found out it was page 108 I was like "whoa!" So, I had no trouble remembering it.

But the important thing is, does anyone else want to give their opinion of rings in WC?

IronFist

[Wei Sui]

I saw the pic too.

It doesn't mean he always used them, but it does acknowledge possible value in using it.

My sifu has them at his house for us to use.

[Cashier Graham]

I havn't used rings because there way too expensive at £10 a ring but I have used wrist weights and normal weights while punching and chain punching. It definatly improves your speed and power. Although I don't do the chi kung of SLT with weights as it's meant to be gentle excersise.

[Redd]

Originally posted by IronFist
But the important thing is, does anyone else want to give their opinion of rings in WC?

Do not use them.

[Redd]

Originally posted by Wei Sui
I saw the pic too.

It doesn't mean he always used them, but it does acknowledge possible value in using it.


Please tell us you do not use a photo as the basis of your training method.

[Wei Sui]

Originally posted by Redd


Please tell us you do not use a photo as the basis of your training method.

Redd, Where in my post do I say I use the photo as a basis for my training method?? I said the there was possbile value.

I use the rings to hone the specific wing chun specific muscles -while executing movements, Tan sau, pak sau, Tye sau etc. Similarly to dan chi sau with a partner and having good endurance/intention to do it for a long time, the rings can be used to further build on keeping intention and increasing endurance..focused on wing chun movements.

[popsider]

I've never used them, but the objection is that you need to put sideways pressure on them to hold them in place - so they are teaching bad habits.

Are you still training on your own Ironfist - I don't know your circumstances but have you thought about maybe relocating somewhere with a decent teacher? If you are as keen as you sound then it would be worth it.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by Redd


Do not use them.

Wow, that's fascinating advice. Do you have any reasoning with which to back it up or are you going to leave it at that?

IronFist

[IronFist]

I know it's fun to argue about who to ban from this forum, and whose lineage is better, but it's even MORE fun to help me =D

ttt!

IronFist

[kungfu cowboy]

IronFist, you are talking about the kind you wear like bracelets on one arm, right? Just in case anyone is thinking about the larger two handed rattan rings.

[Mr Punch]

I like to use ten or so big fat gold rings, preferably spelling hardcore hip-hop slogans: kicks a lot of ass! If I get in real trouble I take off the phat chain from my neck and indulge ina bit of kusarigamajutsu...!

[12345]

I think Rattan rings or iron rings - used for different purposes but they would both encourage use of energy in the wrong direction.

[IronFist]

Yeah I'm talking about the metal ones you wear on your forearms, like the kind talked about in the article in this month's online kfo magazine.

Anyway, what do you mean they train the wrong kind of pressure? Wing Chun is all about forward pressure, right? And the rings which are pulling down on you would be training you to resist a downward force which is wrong cuz it's not forward, right?

Ok, I guess that makes sense. But me being a beginner would assume that any time someone's arm is on top of yours there is going to be at least a little downward pressure, right? Plus, I would assume non-WC people would tend to use more downward force.

Also, I would assume that they could help in building endurance. If you can do slt with the rings on, then it would probably be easier to do it without them.

Finally, how about all those tests where you have someone "lean" on your bong sao or whatever? That's totally downward force!! I mean, there's some forward pressure against you, but also downward force.

There, now all you WC-gurus, please tell me why what I have just said is wrong (that's not sarcasm, I'm being serious here).

Thanks,

IronFist

[yuanfen]

You seem to be going hither and thither without a sifu trying to
pick up your own ideas about wing chun ....now from a picture of
Yip Man holding the rings given to him by Lee asa gift. What does that have to do with wing chun?
If you want to exercise with the rings or anything else because you enjoy it-thats one thing...but assuming that it will help you with wing chun structure, motion or timing is quite a different and irrelevant thing. You improve the tan sao by doing the tan sao correctly. The rings wont help you understand the tan, bong or fok.

[IronFist]

yuanfen,

You seem to be going hither and thither without a sifu trying to
pick up your own ideas about wing chun ....now from a picture of
Yip Man holding the rings given to him by Lee asa gift. What does that have to do with wing chun?

What does that have to do with Wing Chun? A possible training method to enhance my skill. That's why I asked about it here.

If you want to exercise with the rings or anything else because you enjoy it-thats one thing...but assuming that it will help you with wing chun structure, motion or timing is quite a different and irrelevant thing.

How is it irrelevant?

Still waiting for someone to comment on what I said in my reply before this one.

IronFist

[vingtsunstudent]

iron
'Ok, I guess that makes sense. But me being a beginner would assume that any time someone's arm is on top of yours there is going to be at least a little downward pressure, right? Plus, I would assume non-WC people would tend to use more downward force.'

one thing that you will find is that you are not learning to deal with downward pressure but learning to apply an upwards pressure.
in single or double handed chi sao nobody should even be applying a slight down ward pressure as it is easy to take advantage of.
of course people learning may apply things slightly incorect. but they have a teacher there to help and show them first hand.
the thing is you are training bad habits with them & the fact you are trying to teach yourself means that unfortunately you will already be doing this so why make it any worse.
i realise you are having to take a lot in on trust here but i think you're intelligent enough to realise that for the most part we are trying to help you.
vts

[IronFist]

vts, thanks for the straight up answer. I would modify your last statement, however. I think for the most part, some of you are trying to help me :)

I get three types of answers here.

1. The awesome ones from people who try to help me.

2. The dumb ass remarks from the people who are like "haha I have a sifu and you don't.

3. The ones I ignore, like "don't lift weights it will make you stiff." Hehe :)

Thanks dude.

Soon I'll have pics up so everyone can make fun of my form and structure.

IronFist

[Mr Punch]

Sorry Ironfist, but for once I think you are totally missing the point.

If someone is giving you downward pressure, let them go down and strike them. If you can, use their downward energy to 'bounce' off them and strike slightly upward, so you catch them going down. The rings would be useless to train this kind of energy: they are not heavy enough, and don't give you pressure like someone trying to rip your guard down, trap you, or push you downwards. Maybe you could 'flick' them off, and use the spring-back to strike...:rolleyes: ... I think you'd be better off using your newfound partner...!

BUT, depends what kind of rings you're talking about.

I had one sifu who was given some small iron arm rings as a present, and despite them not being traditional wingchun aids, said that using two on each arm through slt, and trying not to get them to clash was quite a useful exercise. Couldn't exactly see it myself...

Some styles use larger rings (like the rattan ones), and I don't actually agree with vts about the upward pressure in this one... the larger rings should be used to train a horizontal splitting energy, like you get when applying lam sau and fuk sau.

The lam goes forward to cover, trap or elbow (or hopefully all three!) the opponent and drive him back, and the fuk 'pulls' (maybe more accurately, 'rides') the opponent's incoming strike. You thus receive his energy with the revolving door effect, keeping your own forward energy at the expense of his balance whilst simultaneously controlling and striking him. Difficult to explain... hope it helps tho'.

The ring splitting exercise can develop this energy, but I find it too restrictive, and sometimes it makes me too tense, especially in my fuk arm. This is a long way of saying SKIP IT!:rolleyes:

Practice again with your partner!

Where are these piccies you keep talking about...!?;)

[GLW]

just to throw this into the mix...

The pictures I have seen of Yip Man...and it was a few years ago but I remember them quite well...

were of him doing Sil Lim Tao with several rings...may have been 5 or more...on his forearm. This was, from the notes and talking with people who should have known, a way of training...not for beginners but not foreign to Wing Chun. It is, in fact a very common training method for most all southern styles. However, you can't just use them and avoid doing the same things without them.

They toughen the arm and CAN train you to retain some residual power when needed. It is all in what and how you do things with them. Given that Yip Man was not too free with pictures and that he was even more careful of what pictures were taken of him doing Wing Chun - as opposed to just pictures with people - and given that there are pictures of him practicing with the rings on...and to my knowledge, he never explicitly said or wrote anything against them... I would say that they are NOT in opposition to Wing Chun training....just another tool. Tools you can take or leave ....

[IronFist]

Mat and GLW, thanks :)

IronFist

[sunkuen]

use em'...forget all these threats of training bad habits.