Hey give me your opinion!

[scotty1]

Check out my workout plan man:

Tuesday: Weights. Bench, pull ups, squats.

Wednesday: rest

Thursday: Class. Sparring, bag drills, calisthenics.

Friday: rest

Weekend : running, bag work.

That is as much time as I am willing/able to commit, I want to have good overall fitness. I will be lifting for strength.

What do you think?

:)

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

dedicate 15 minutes of your time to your art on monday, wednesday, and friday and i'd say you'd be doin ok.

[IronFist]

You might want to do squat before bench, because squat generally requires more concentration or whatever so doing it while you're fresh might help. But, it's all a matter of personal opinion. Good luck.

What does your set/rep scheme look like?

IronFist

[Liokault]

Looks like a lot of fitness and no martial art there guy!!!!

[scotty1]

Liokault - yeah I spose you're right. My art at the moment is kickboxing, with a heavy emphasis on the boxing, so if I took GDA's advice and shadowboxed for a bit on my rest days that would probably help internalise the movement.

I don't shadowbox enough for a kickboxer. I think on the days I shadowbox I'll also stretch.

I forgot to mention I'm doing Zhan Zhuang everyday.

Ironfist - I'm benching with a weight I can only lift about 6 times. Should I be able to squat 6 times with that weight too?
I can't see me being able to do that to be honest. Think I'll have to take some weight off.

I'm lifting for strength by the way, so what? 2 sets? 3?

Oh, and also - I am one skinny mofo. How can I calculate my body fat percentage?

And because I am naturally very skinny but run about 5 miles a week for my cardio, should I try and eat a low fat diet? I mean, surely I should be eating as much fat as I can because I need something to burn off on my runs? I now you don't give diet advice but I'd be interested in your opinion.

Cheers boys!:)

[scotty1]

Also, would you do all your sets of squats, followed by all your bench, followed by all your sets of pull ups etc?

[popsider]

Originally posted by scotty1


I forgot to mention I'm doing Zhan Zhuang everyday.

Cheers boys!:)

What's that then?

[scotty1]

Standing qigong.

http://kungfuyiquan.free.fr/sitee/ezzg.html

[IronFist]

scotty1, here's what I would do.

Ironfist - I'm benching with a weight I can only lift about 6 times. Should I be able to squat 6 times with that weight too?
I can't see me being able to do that to be honest. Think I'll have to take some weight off.

Did you mean should you be able to squat 6 times with the same weight you're benching? You should be able to squat a lot more than you can bench. Generally speaking, you should be able to squat anywhere from 50-300lbs more than you can bench, unless you've done upper body training before and neglected your legs. If that's the case, it's easy to remedy.

Anyway, a weight you can lift 6 times is good. But don't always use that weight. How much is it? Depending on how much it is, I'd go down 20-30lbs and keep 5 or 6 reps for 2 sets and then add 5 pounds per workout. By the time you get back to where you were you should be able to lift 5 or 10lbs more for the same amount of reps. Do the same thing with squatting.

I'm lifting for strength by the way, so what? 2 sets? 3?

Either.

Oh, and also - I am one skinny mofo. How can I calculate my body fat percentage?

Calipers aren't very accurate. The stupid formula where you divide everything by your neck circumference is worse (cuz what if you got a big neck but low bodyfat?) The bodyfat scales by Tomita suck, too. I would say either do it electronically (not on the scales, but instead by the thing you grab on to) which is generally +- 3%, or just estimate. Can you see your abs? Then you're probably under 10%.

And because I am naturally very skinny but run about 5 miles a week for my cardio, should I try and eat a low fat diet? I mean, surely I should be eating as much fat as I can because I need something to burn off on my runs? I now you don't give diet advice but

I wouldn't. If you're naturally very skinny you probably need more fat than most people. Cardio just increases the amount of calories you need to maintain a given weight. Extreme diets of too-little fat can mess with yoru vitamin absorbtion and stuff. I would say you're probably in the situation where you can eat whatever you want and not have to worry about it. Just get enough protein.

IronFist

[scotty1]

Yeah baby!

Thanks Iron.

[scotty1]

So how about, for building strength:

3 sets, 5 reps each

Bench
Squats
Pull ups
Calf raises (weighted)
Lat pull downs

Interspersed with crunches on an incline bench

Finshed off with bag work for 10 minutes.

[dragontounge2]

Here is a good diet.

breakfast- 1 bowl of oatmeal- Wheat germ-1 glass of milk-orange juice-bannana

lunch- Fresh spinach or canned- Can of tuna or fresh- or salmon-and rice.

dinner- 1-2 steaks, boiled potatoes, salad, steamed vegtables.

This is a good diet to build muscle has lots of vitamin A & protien and vitamin E. Snacks Eat fruits and Spinach.

[pvwingchun]

Try not to concentrate so much on strength. Strength is good but if you bulk up too much you will lose speed and flexibility. But if you are skinny to start with some bulk probably won't hurt. [Just remember as you grow older that muscle has a tendency to turn to fat (experience)]. If you can hit or kick someone 3x's before they ever make contact then you are way ahead of the game. I also get the impression that you are not stretching every day. If not it is best it keeps you limber and helps to prevent injury. Also I agree with GDA on throwing in more MA. I do my forms every day but one, irregardless I just do less on days I lift (and I lift for tone), but not by much.

Disclaimer: These are only opinions for more accurate information see a personal trainer and get expert advice.

[dragontounge2]

HAHAHAHa:

1.Muscle dosent turn into fat.

2. Stop exposing your self in public I saw the thread At cyberkwoon;). This is true.

3. If the guy is skinny he needs some muscle he isnt going to bulk up by eating and working out he will get good muscle tone & strength.

4.Are you telling me You bulk up by lifting weight 3 times a week?
And eat a normal diet?

[IronFist]

Unbelievable. My head hurts. Did I actually read those last two posts?

IronFist

[dragontounge2]

Whats wrong with my post>?

[IronFist]

Originally posted by scotty1
So how about, for building strength:

3 sets, 5 reps each

Bench
Squats
Pull ups
Calf raises (weighted)
Lat pull downs

Interspersed with crunches on an incline bench

Finshed off with bag work for 10 minutes.

No. Don't mix pullups and lat pull downs in the same workout (unless you're bodybuilding or whatever).

Do 2 sets of 5 reps, not 3, if you're going to do that many exercises. The second set should be at 90% of the weight that the first one was.

Don't intersprese it with crunches. Well, unless I misinterpreted what you mean. But it sounds like you are aiming to do a lot of crunches... why? If ab endurance is your goal, then this is fine. Don't get me wrong, you abs need good endurance for sparing and fighting and stuff.

Now, if you're doing abs, do them last. Here is why: If you do abs in between other stuff, then they will become fatigued and won't help to stablize you in things like squat or bench press. So, whatever type of ab training you are going to do (strength or endurance), I recommend that you do it last. Make sense?

Other than the changes I made, it sounds good. At the end of your weight lifting you shouldn't be fatigued very much so techniques or bag work or whatever you want to work on should come easily (as opposed to like if you just did a bodybuilding triceps workout and your triceps were fatigued... then trying to do bagwork or forms or whatever would be difficult and possibly counter-productive).

Good luck.

IronFist

[IronFist]

Originally posted by dragontounge2
Whats wrong with my post>?

dragontongue2,

Well, i was talking more about pvwingchun's post. I'm not sure about a few things you said though. The diet that you listed was pretty small, but I don't know what type of diet it was so I can't really comment on that.

I was also confused by:

3. If the guy is skinny he needs some muscle he isnt going to bulk up by eating and working out he will get good muscle tone & strength.

Kinda doesn't make sense how you phrased it. Anyway, the ONLY way to bulk up is by eating and working out. Bulking up and bodybuilding is like 90% eating anyway.

4.Are you telling me You bulk up by lifting weight 3 times a week?
And eat a normal diet?

I didn't know what you meant here, either. You can bulk up by lifting 3 times a week, but not with a normal diet. Maybe that's what you meant. I dunno.

So, yeah. Sorry if I sounded harsh. I think I must have read pvwingchun's post and then not read your's completely, although parts of yours were kind of unclear.

Anyway, yeah.

IronFist

[dragontounge2]

I meant that you are not going to get huge. ex. cant see your balls because of your enormus pecs.

He will develope muscles,tone, and strength.

He wont become so huge that he wont be flexible and be like some stiff muscle figurine.

And he wont get huge unless he guzzles down protein shakes, eats 6 steaks, and a tub of protien powder. ex. not a normal diet.

[pvwingchun]

Don't forget I put a disclaimer at the bottom.

Ever seen a body builder that stopped lifting altogether ah .

No muscle doesn't actually turn into fat thats an old saying but I am not a physiologist. It goes through a whole host of changes but I do not remember how (See disclaimer) Here is a link on what actually happens as you age, but cellular biology was quite a number of years ago and I can't even pronounce some of these words anymore http://grove.ufl.edu/~cleeuwen/mtapoptosis.htm

I post nowhere else but here quit the NASCAR forums because of all the idiots who couldn't handle a diverse opinion (no offense to anyone here).


Simply cautioning to stay away from too much bulk not always good for a MA. The guys that I know that are bulked up have much less flexibility and speed which in my opinion are extremely important in MA.

But if you are skinny to start with some bulk probably won't hurt. (See disclaimer)

Once again see disclaimer.

No I don't bulk up by lifting 3 days a week. I never mentioned how often I lift. And I am not sure what normal is for a diet anymore. I eat what keeps my insides the healthiest per my experience. I do what I feel is right for my age, physical abliites and life goals.:D Everybody is different and what works for me won't work for you. Unless any of us are exercise physiologists or Personal Trainers it's just advice, and if you are one I hope you send the guy a bill.

Why would your head hurt? Did you bump it cause I got some TCM recipes that can fix it if you did.:) Besides it is just advice and I did post a disclaimer.

[dragontounge2]

This is Azwingchun right?

[pvwingchun]

Two different people but I do know Az.

He the one who got me here said there was a bunch of good guys here.

[IronFist]

I gotta run now so I'll write more later but I don't think that article was related to muscle turning into fat at all. I think it was about cell degeneration as you age or something. I dunno. I just skimmed the whole thing.

IronFist

[pvwingchun]

It's not about muscles turning into fat, you are right it is about what happens to cells as they age. That is the point I am trying to make. Once again only advice from my point of view see disclaimer. I am certainly not an expert in cell bio but if you want to know about endangered plant species and herbicide interactions I can do that, but that is no for here.

[IronFist]

pvwingchun

Ever seen a body builder that stopped lifting altogether ah .

Yup. Usually they shrink.

Here's how the "muscle gets turned into fat" thing got started, I think. Take your average mesomorph, who one day discovers weightlifting and later learns that the only way to get huge is to eat big. So, he works out for 10 or 15 years and in that time eats between 4-6000 calories a day. He gets to be big and strong. Finally, he becomes established with a family and a job, etc, and no longer has time to keep up with his workouts. So, because of disuse, his muscle begins to atrophy. But, he never dropped the habbit of eating big. To further make matters worse, his metabolism slows down as he approaches middle age, and also since he was a mesomorph he can put on fat relatively easy. Over time, this leads to an increase in bodyfat and a decrease in muscle (atrophy). After a few years, he one day look in the mirror and goes "whoa, what happened?" He used to be big and muscular but now he's big and fat because of the aforementioned factors. He thinks "man, my muscle must have turned into fat."

At least, that's what I think.

Biologically, muscle cannot turn into fat, and vice versa.

It [muscle] goes through a whole host of changes but I do not remember how

Basically, I think all muscle can do is really get bigger or smaller (hypertrophy or atrophy, respectively).

I post nowhere else but here quit the NASCAR forums because of all the idiots who couldn't handle a diverse opinion (no offense to anyone here).

lol.

Simply cautioning to stay away from too much bulk not always good for a MA.

Not always, you are right. However, increase in muscle (size or strength) generally doesn't lead to a decrease in flexibility or speed, contrary to common belief. The main problem with extreme hypertrophy in martial artists is that past a certain point (a very big point) being too big can inhibit your movements, like if you can't reach across your chest because your pecs and front delts are too big. The other problem with bodybuilding and martial arts is that bodybuilding workouts generally leave the trained bodypart sore for a few days which is counter productive to MA training.

No I don't bulk up by lifting 3 days a week.

Most bodybuilders seem to train each muscle group once per week. This can be anywhere from 3-6 workouts per week. You will not get very big training the same muscle multiple times per week, however.

Unless any of us are exercise physiologists or Personal Trainers

Heh, I know a few people here (myself included) are personal trainers. However, if anyone parades these credentials around don't assume they know anything. I've seen tons of "certified personal trainers" give out terrible and often times, anatomically incorrect, advice.

Why would your head hurt? Did you bump it cause I got some TCM recipes that can fix it if you did. Besides it is just advice and I did post a disclaimer.

That and cuz I'm getting over a cold :p

Alright, that's about it for my rant. Welcome to KFO. I think you'll find that most people here are really cool, and for the most part everyone knows their stuff.

IronFist

[Serpent]

Great post, Iron.

Here's a question that's always interested me. You often say that bodybuilders never train the same muscle more than once a week. Why?

From a MA point of view, is it better to train all the muslces in a workout? For example, I often work out with dumbells and I try to hit each upper body area each time. I do something like (sorry, I dunno the proper names):

Bicep curls
Vertical shoulder press
Sidelifts
Bent over row
Tricep (like a reverse curl bent over)
Forearm (like a curl with the hand and wrist only)

I tend to do a dozen or so reps of each and do the whole thing around two or three times, usually with only about 10 or 12 kilos on each dumbell. The idea is for stength and endurance, but not really bulk too much.

A friend of mine suggested it to me as a general workout. What do you think? Is that the most hideous workout you've ever seen or is it ok? ;)

[IronFist]

Here's a question that's always interested me. You often say that bodybuilders never train the same muscle more than once a week. Why?

Due to its high volume, bodybuilding type training tears down the muscle to a great degree. This therefore takes a while to heal completely. This tearing down of the muscle fibres is thought to be one of the causes of DOMS (delayed onset muscle soreness), although scientists still do not know entirely what causes it. Anyway, training the same muscle more than once every 5 days or so does not generally give the muscle enough time to heal before the next workout and is therefore counterproductive. As a side note, it is the tearing down of the muscle that causes it to grow back bigger (when combined with other factors, such as proper diet, etc.)

From a MA point of view, is it better to train all the muslces in a workout?

I dunno. When I powerlift I do my whole body at once, but the volume is so low that it's alright for me to do this. You would never make progress in bodybuilding training all the muscles in the same workout (not past the first month, I mean. Newbies to weight training make progress from anything).

For example, I often work out with dumbells and I try to hit each upper body area each time. I do something like (sorry, I dunno the proper names):

Bicep curls
Vertical shoulder press
Sidelifts
Bent over row
Tricep (like a reverse curl bent over)
Forearm (like a curl with the hand and wrist only)

I tend to do a dozen or so reps of each and do the whole thing around two or three times, usually with only about 10 or 12 kilos on each dumbell. The idea is for stength and endurance, but not really bulk too much.

Well, what are your goals? If it doesn't leave you sore afterward then it's probably not having any adverse effect on your MA training. But if you've been doing exactly the same thing for a while it's probably just more of a maintainence thing by now anyway.

Generally for martial artists I recommend entire body movements such as deadlift and bench press, but if you only have dumbells you can't really do those. Maybe you could do some high rep snatches with the dumbells or something. Or, can you do one legged squats? If so, try them with a dumbell held at your chest.

I don't know what a "sidelift" is, but it doesn't look like you have any leg exercises up there. If you can't do one legged squats now I suggest you start working on them. They're very good, especially if you don't have weights for doing squats or deadlift. Don't neglect your legs in your training. Horse stance will not build raw strength.

Hope this helps,

IronFist

[Serpent]

Hey, thanks for the great reply there, Iron.

Now I have some things to answer!



Well, what are your goals?


Strength and endurance mainly. Also, an increase in power. I'm not particularly interested in bulking up, but obviously a bit of muscle size is always nice! I did the whole weights thing when I was a teenager and got quite big but it was always hit and miss with machines to impress the girls! I never got too scientific about it. I'm a fairly skinny guy, meso with ecto tendencies ;) so I don't put on muscle very quickly anyway. So yeah, mainly strength, endurance and power.



If it doesn't leave you sore afterward then it's probably not having any adverse effect on your MA training. But if you've been doing exactly the same thing for a while it's probably just more of a maintainence thing by now anyway.


No, it doesn't leave me sore. How do I progress from a "maintenance plateau" then? More weight? More reps? Both? Given my goals above that is.



Generally for martial artists I recommend entire body movements such as deadlift and bench press, but if you only have dumbells you can't really do those. Maybe you could do some high rep snatches with the dumbells or something. Or, can you do one legged squats? If so, try them with a dumbell held at your chest.


Sorry, can you explain what a deadlift and a snatch are? I know what a bench press is, but how you do the others? I usually only use dumbells, but I could always get onto a barbell one way or another. I'd rather stick with the dumbells though, as space is limited!



I don't know what a "sidelift" is


Hold a dumbell in each hand, stand up straight and raise your arms out to each side till the dumbells are at shoulder height (backs of your hands facing the ceiling) then lower again. I dunno if this is the right name for them. Are these what some people call flies? Sorry, I'm hopeless with weight terminology!



but it doesn't look like you have any leg exercises up there. If you can't do one legged squats now I suggest you start working on them. They're very good, especially if you don't have weights for doing squats or deadlift. Don't neglect your legs in your training. Horse stance will not build raw strength.


Yeah I can do one legged squats and often do. It's amazing how many people can't even do one! I regularly do squats and moving stance exercises as well as standing stance training. My legs get a mighty workout without needing to do weights for them.

So, there you have it. Does that make things easier to understand?

Any more advice?

[scotty1]

OK Iron, V3.0 of Scott's gym workout:

Thanks for doing this by the way, you provide an invaluable service.:)

For building strength:

2 sets, 5 reps each

Bench
Squats
Pull ups / Lat pull downs
Calf raises (weighted)

4x50 crunches on an incline bench

Bag work. Any upper limit on the time?

Questions: would you do the exercises in a circuit ie. one set of each twice, or do both sets of each exercise straight after each other?

And the lats pull downs and pull ups, do alternating weeks?

Man, that doesn't seem like much exercise! All the people in the gym just seem to wander from one machine to the next randomly for about 3 hrs!

[stoli]

Just seen the thread and gonna add a couple of things.

Scotty, don't worry about the people in the gym who spend hours training, the most important thing is getting the intensity there in your workout. If you watch the people that spend hours in a gym they spend most of it talking !!!! I find that you can easily fit in a good full body workout in 45 minutes.

Might suggest that sets of deadlifts would be more beneficial generally than the calf raises. Don't worry about the seeming lack of exercises, keep with a simple all over body workout until you stop making gains then think about adding other exercises.

You might think about adding some lower back exercise, I try to do one set of lower back exercises for each set of abs.

If you want to build strength and can already do reps of pull-ups it might be best to use the pull-downs

And don't neglect your diet. A lot of people end up feeling cr@p when they start a new regime because they don't watch what they eat and up their intake to provide for their increased activity. Don't get too hung up on what you eat, just be sensible, time when you eat for maximum benefit and try to eat 4-6 times a day rather than cramming everything in to 3 meals.

And didn't Ironfist stay calm, imagine how much his head would have hurt if pvwingchun had mentioned 'lower abs' as well!!!

Serpent, if you prefer dumbells for convenience you might try combination movements. Combining squats with, for example, shoulder press or upright rows can help up the intensity. Maybe use some plyometrics to develop explosive, functional strengtn and power.

[scotty1]

Cheers Stoli.:)

iron, I would still appreciate your opinion on my revisions.

[IronFist]

Ok, let me eat dinner first :D

IronFist

[IronFist]

Strength and endurance mainly.

How do I progress from a "maintenance plateau" then? More weight? More reps? Both? Given my goals above that is.

Well, if you think about it, technically speaking I guess improving strength would be more weight for the same reps, and improving endurance would be more reps with the same weight.

Sorry, can you explain what a deadlift and a snatch are?

Not to be a jerk, but I can't really explain them here. I know someone here has a link to a site that gives animated descriptions though. I don't know any links off the top of my head, though. Deadlift is covered in "Power to the People" by Pavel, and the kettlebell snatch (which you can still do with a dumbbell although it will be a bit less effective) is in his Kettlebell book and video i think.

I'd rather stick with the dumbells though, as space is limited!

I would probably recommend getting his kettlebell video and doing the stuff you can with a dumbell. Um, a lot of the kettlebell stuff is high rep, but this is ok because due to the nature of kettlebell exercises it will will still build some strength (as well as other stuff). Most people seem to notice endurance and strength increases when they go to kettlebells. Personally I have no experience with them, but this is what reliable people tell me.

Hold a dumbell in each hand, stand up straight and raise your arms out to each side till the dumbells are at shoulder height... Are these what some people call flies?

Yeah, those are flies. But you might want to call them "shoulder flies" or something because there's another "flies" exercise for your chest, too.

If you can do one legged squats, once you can do a bunch in a row you might want to try holding a dumbell at your chest while you do them to increase the resistance.

Hope this helps,

IronFist

[IronFist]

For building strength:

2 sets, 5 reps each

Bench
Squats
Pull ups / Lat pull downs
Calf raises (weighted)

4x50 crunches on an incline bench

I would do squats first, I think. I also think that calf raises are more for aesthetics than function, but my calves suck so what do I know? :) So, keep the calf raises just so your body looks balanced. 4 x 50 crunches seems like a bit much. You abs will get a good workout if you squat heavy and go all the way down. If you've been doing lots of crunches for a while then you probably already have good endurance and might want to switch to Janda situps or something to build ab strength. Just an idea.

Bag work. Any upper limit on the time?

Nope. I wouldn't go to failure though.

Questions: would you do the exercises in a circuit ie. one set of each twice, or do both sets of each exercise straight after each other?

Personally I would do, Squat x 2, Bench x 2, Pullups x 2, Calves, Bag work, Abs. The weight lifting won't leave you very tired so you'll have a lot of energy for bag work. Remember to leave 3-5 minutes between sets on your weight lifting.

And the lats pull downs and pull ups, do alternating weeks?

Whatever. If it were me I would do only pullups, with added weight as my workout cycle progressed. It probably doesn't matter, but if you want to do both I would do pullups for one cycle and then pulldowns for the next cycle.

Man, that doesn't seem like much exercise! All the people in the gym just seem to wander from one machine to the next randomly for about 3 hrs!

Yeah. Sometimes they also include 20 minute sets of talking in between each set of weights. But they look the same year after year, don't they? They don't get much stronger, either. Your workout might get weird looks, too, but just ignore them. Then you can feel awesome when you set a new PR every couple weeks.

IronFist

[scotty1]

Thanks Iron, and cheers to everyoner else too.

[scotty1]

"4 x 50 crunches seems like a bit much. You abs will get a good workout if you squat heavy and go all the way down. If you've been doing lots of crunches for a while then you probably already have good endurance and might want to switch to Janda situps or something to build ab strength. Just an idea. "

Man I can do sets of 50 crunches until the cows come home.
You think that's good endurance?

I read that article on Janda Situps you posted a little while ago and just tried one in the toilet at work!

Pushing down into the floor definitely made them more difficult but I did 5 so I guess I'm not doing them quite right.

I'll experiment.

[Serpent]

Thanks Iron.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by scotty1
I read that article on Janda Situps you posted a little while ago and just tried one in the toilet at work!

:confused: :eek:

What did you do in the toilet?

If you did 5 full reps your first time you probably did them wrong. But like they say, Janda situps tend to get harder as you get better at doing them.

IronFist

[Serpent]

What's a Janda situp?

Jeez, you guys talk about all these things I've never heard of before!

[scotty1]

ttt, Iron if I could regain your attention:

Yeah well I went to the gym last night and did the 5x2 sets with those 4 main exercises.

Didn't feel like much, but I'm not sore today.

Just to reiterate:

Squats 2 sets of 5 reps
Bench "
Pull ups "
Calf Raises "

With the pull ups should I do one set palms away and one set palm towards?

Earlier in one of your replies, you said "Do 2 sets of 5 reps, not 3, if you're going to do that many exercises" That was when I was going on about lat pull downs.

With just the four exercises above, could I do 3 sets?

Sorry to keep going on. But I am leaving work in two days and no more net access (or at least very irregular). So I need to leave the forum with everything sorted out. ie. an Ironfist approved final workout plan.

So, 3 sets OK? If it is, I'll stop bothering you and just keep doing the above exercises for 5 reps at the number of sets you recommend.

And that'll be a good all round once a week weight workout yup?


Thanks dude. :)

[scotty1]

Cheers for the detailed post man but I can really only afford to go to the gym once a week.:(