Wing Chun Forum

[red5angel]

OK, there seems to be some misunderstanding as to what a FORUM is used for.
Recently a thread was started aksing if I should be banned. Why? Because I have an opinion and dont mind sharing it? Because I post here to get reactions and to discuss with people my feelings and ideas and thier feelings and ideas?
This is a forum, that means we come here to do these things. Often, when someone has an opinion that differs strongly from most other opinions, then all sorts of controversy gets stirred up and it gets really sad. My suggestion is that if you dont really have anything to say on something, why say anything at all? If you dont want to discuss something then why bother posting at all?
Whipping hand was banned for making obscure remarks designed to inflame and infuriate people and demean them. My commentc have been soley on what I believe and I have spared no energy in making it plain that those are my opinions. I get accused of being unconstructive, disruptive and whatever else, some of you have put some real input into what I have had to say, some have posted thier honest opinions without being immature, or disruptive, or generally just offensive. The rest o fyou should go back and read your post and see if they were really worth the time to even type?
We all know that there is going to be trolling and people here trying to get us mad, but I generally ignore those types. If my own feelings and opinions are so controversial, well I am comfortable with that, and I dont need to get into verbal fights with people over it. I dont mind discussing it, but I am not interested in arguing fo rthe sake of arguing. A good portion of the post that I have seen have obviously come from people who have misunderstood my own meaning or intent. I have tried to explain these over and over again but those same poeple seem less interested in understanding then in causing a disturbance.

If you have issue with what I say, and just want to fight about it, then please pm me or email me about it and save everyone else the trouble.

[rael]

Wow very nice post! But since you did not not mention Ken or Carl or how their Wing Chun is superior I must say I am worried! This must be a sign that the apocolyspe is near.... or Hell has frozen over.

Rael.:D

[red5angel]

Well, I am just trying to get an understanding out there about what this thing is used for. We are here to discuss. We dont have to get along or agree but we should be civil.

[blkbelt65]

This Forum is like most of them out there.......

God - Freakin - forbid, you disagree with the masses on a subject. Everyone wants to slam you or worse yet, try and get you banned. People need to lighten the hell up. Forums are just that, Forums. Open to discussion and OPINIONS. Some individauls just don't know how to deal with an OPINION unless it closely resembles their own thoughts. That's just ignorance on their part, nothing more. There is no SUPERIOR MA, Just Superior fighters. It all has to do with the individual.

Later.......

[dbulmer]

Red,
I agree with you but one thing - sometimes you post a comment about a person or a particular style and then extol the virtues of your style, teacher etc. It's great that you are happy and proud of what you do and why you do it but sometimes you disparage others. The point is that others can be just as proud of what they do and why. Why bother with the name dropping - speaking for myself I am never going to be as good as some of the names - some of these guys are professional athletes and a lot of people doing WC are just amateurs in comparison. It doesn't mean we should not try to emulate our teachers and be as good as we can be (I know you are not suggesting otherwise) but heh cut people some slack and be a little less rigid in your condemning.
Even when you are right, it does not mean it is practical for people to just drop what they have learned or go to another school.

In all styles of WC people want to be good - sure there are good teachers and bad teachers but where do you draw the line between good and bad teaching?

Please don't take this post as an attack on you - I'm just trying a bit of constructive criticism. I can be just as wrong/right as anyone and that goes for all the people on the forum irrespective of age and ability.

As for my own WC it's rubbish but each time I practice I get better. For me WC is a long haul journey - I am a slow learner with about as much coordination as Mike Tyson has with courtesy.

best wishes,
Dave B

[red5angel]

blkbelt65 - thanks for understanding!

dbulmer - you have some good points but you should understand, I only condemn bad wingchun and just happen to think alot of people out there practice bad wingchun. Its not a matter of lineage, more like instructorship and or training.
As for name dropping, I don't like that tag as it has undertones which are not apropriate. for instance, Carl Dechiara represents what I feel embodies good wingchun. To mention his name is not name dropping in a bad light as my intention is to get his name out there, on my own, so that people can see what he has. Why? Becuase I believe in it and I think alot of people would be impressed by it. Would everyone who meets him convert to his way, probably not, to get what he has he works very hard and it takes a lot of hard work. Some people just arent interested in putting that much into it.
For me it is a drive for excellence, that everyone aproaches one way or another. Why not shoot for the best.

Something is often said on this forum that I tend to disagree with. Often people say that they are training with who they think are the best. I disagree, most people are training with who is convenient. Who is close, or close enough. how many people do any sort of travelling regularly because they feel they will get better training from someone who isnt so convenient?

[dbulmer]

name dropping - by this what I mean: is X embodies good Y is not so good, Y could be as good as X depending on how you look at it. Not a good term to use and I wish I hadn't said it that way :)


As for travelling. I live nr London. There are various lineages but the problem is getting there physically can be practically impossible. In my case I have other committments which are as important to me as WC.

My own teacher travelled extensively to learn, but for me and many others it's just not an option - convenience can also be a good thing since I am more likely to get to class.


The point is how do you identify Wing Chun? What failings in technique have you seen when you viewed others? These are the sort of things that interest me personally and I suspect quite a few others too. For example, a bad failing of mine is having a poor crntre of gravity - in my case it's way too high. How high should it be and why?

Nice hearing from you.

[red5angel]

dbulmer - I gotcha :). here is the thing, its like you said, sometimes you just can't or won't go to get better training, other things are as or more important to you. Mostly my comments are for those people who make WC a priority. I can understand if you got other things going.
Poor center of gravity or root, is one of the things I am talking about! You need to get low in your stance, especially when training! how do I know this? Well, when I started at my school, my root was really weak, very bad. Since I started going lower, really low, my root has become noticeably (By my training mates) better! We keep our knees two finger widths apart when in our stance. Alot of people dont go down this far.
This is also a good example of the problem. Everyone says they have good root, but very few do. Some compensate for root by having fast feet but that is wasteful, in wingchun we should move only as much as we have to! Do you see what I am saying? Many people pay word of mouth to the tenents of wing chun but very few practice even the basics to the degree they should!

[blkbelt65]

No Problem. I see they have a post to get you banned!! Hahaha!! That's too funny. Did you see my post to that?

later......

[red5angel]

well, thats me always causing trouble! Just trying to get some conversation going, apparently we all have to agree for that to be done!

[blkbelt65]

That's how most of these threads/forums go...If you don't agree with the masses, you must be some j/o just here to cause trouble.
Many people have problems with an opinion....screw 'em! After all isn't that what these boards are all about, opinions??? Now I see someone giving you grief for "name dropping"???!! haha, this crap is too funny! Why should anyone care who you mention are who YOU think is the best. Maybe it's their lack of knowledge and skill that leads them down their path of disillusion. If they were confident in their skill and teacher they would just read and move on....they can't though can they!! Keep 'em whining dude, It cracks me up as well as others here.

peace.

[dbulmer]

Red,
I have been moving my COG downwards and it's getting better.

[red5angel]

dbulmer - excellent, the lower you go the better your root will be the better able to absorb incoming energy!

[OdderMensch]

but why clutter things up, if it your intent with this and other posts to get the ball rolling.......



We keep our knees two finger widths apart when in our stance. Alot of people dont go down this far.

some of those people would be the ones in my kwoon. we tend to keep the knees between a fist or two apart. Also good root depends on a number of factors (as I am sure you know, you gave a single example of a single aspect of the stace) such as feet angle, adduction, proper placement of the hip/pelvis in relation to the body and spine, and overall body unity.

you say others do not have good root, well how do YOU and your classmates define "good root"

[red5angel]

Oddermensch - good question! We keep our toes turned in about 60% and our knees about 2 finger widths apart, which means we go pretty low. This also means that you are abducting a little but eventually you learn to relax in the stance. Spine should be straight, that means pelvis tucked or rolled under, Head back and staright, almost like your chin is tucked in a little. Round your back across the shoulders a tad. Stay relaxed! thats important.
We do a rooting excersise where we stand in front of each other in our stance. You put your arm out in front of you, like lap sao except the angle isnt so severe. The other arm is out and forms a "half circle" with the 'lap' arm. The other person puts his wu sao against your 'lap' arm and presses gently but firmly and with increasing intensity until he feels your root start to give. By abducting, as well as locking joints as the pressure increases you are able to take in more energy and divert it to the ground. Its not miraculous, you cant take someone who is really plowing into you thats why the gentle but firm appraoch. Its designed to help develope your root as well as your sensitivity to the energy coming into you.

[dbulmer]

Red,
My own stance is pretty much as OdderMensch does it - except normally a fist apart. Feet are about 45 degrees.

Generally I don't stay static in the stance for too long. I move forwards whenever I can. SLT is obviously done in this stance but during free spar I always try to be moving - not excessively but always in a position of attack. I find the lower COG easier to move from although I wasn't convinced of this when I started.
My movement is far from ideal but it is improving.

[Chris99]

Hi R5A,

I am glad that you have the zeal that you do, however not all publicity is good publicity. You also are not alone in promoting Carl's WC, he has some students here in Ohio who have been hard at work studying the craft he is teaching. Not all choose the format that you have...that doesn't mean that they are nonexistant in trying to get his name out there. Sometimes flies are best caught with honey. The KFO is hardly the measuring stick of promoting your Sifu or in your case, your Sigung--Carl.

Blanket statements tend to **** people off and I have yet to meet many people who are willing to listen to a different point of view when they perceive that they are being attacked or put down. I would say that nearly everyone on this list is under the impression that their teacher represents high level skill. Who would willingly study with a guy they felt sucked? I think that perhaps the perceived nature of your posts is what most disagree with...not the fact that you have a strong belief in your Sigung--Carl. How would you feel if someone straight out says you don't practice the true WC (most would take this as a slight to their teacher)? Would you have an open mind or would your Ego flair and resentment build?

As far as traveling goes...not everyone trains with the same goals in mind. Only they can tell you what their goals are or what lengths they are willing to go in the pursuit of good training. Yes some pick what is convenient...but most--I would have to disagree with this statement. While kicking the hornets' nest is a good way to bring out those inside...I would say most of the hornets are ****ed off and looking to attack the said perpetrator. I did not personally care for you saying Carl and Challenge in the same sentence. He may be willing to take the "pepsi challenge" but isn't that his place to state such a point of view? Don't get me wrong I am not joining the bandwagon against you, merely attempting to add a different perspective to the situation. If I feel the need to challenge someone I will do so personally, I wouldn't say I challenge you to touch my Sifu's hands. What would you do if some serious **** went down at the seminar? Would you step in front of Carl or stand behind Carl?


Just some thoughts,
Chris Snyder


Carl Dechiara represents what I feel embodies good wingchun. To mention his name is not name dropping in a bad light as my intention is to get his name out there, on my own, so that people can see what he has. Why? Becuase I believe in it and I think alot of people would be impressed by it. Would everyone who meets him convert to his way, probably not, to get what he has he works very hard and it takes a lot of hard work. Some people just arent interested in putting that much into it.
For me it is a drive for excellence, that everyone aproaches one way or another. Why not shoot for the best.

Something is often said on this forum that I tend to disagree with. Often people say that they are training with who they think are the best. I disagree, most people are training with who is convenient. Who is close, or close enough. how many people do any sort of travelling regularly because they feel they will get better training from someone who isnt so convenient? [/B][/QUOTE]

[red5angel]

I gotcha Chris, all goo dpoints. I have mentioned before when people started to get inflamed ;) that I may have put things in the wrong light but instead of allowing me to recover continued to poke and prod.
As for skill level and desire, I have also said I understand for some wing chun is not first on thier agenda or even a close second, and have tried to clarify more that I am talking mostly to those people. this goes with travelling too obviously. If you just aren't interested in travelling then so be it.
Some people have taken the whole challenge thing a little too far though. It wasnt a challenge to come down and fight Carl, but see what he had to offer. If I even implied it was to fight I apologize but I do not believe that to be so. I would agree with you though, if I were offering up challenges to someone else I would expect them to kick my ass! Especially Carl! As for serious crap going down at the seminar, well I would do what I have to do!

Anyway, I understand what you are saying as well as what many of the others have said but I think that some people chose to creatively interpret or take personal the things I have said and it sort of snowballed from there.
For example, I stated I believe most people practice bad wingchun, not purposely, and not anyone specifically so why would anyone get upset? I didnt name names or even imply them so how would someone know I was talking to them? I definitely never said it was lineage related, I know these guys way to well for that.
Honey works to catch flies but its the hornets I am looking to talk with!

Chris, you know you can pm me anytime if you think I am getting out of line or misrepresenting Carl, or if you so choose just 'teach me a lesson' when I start making my trips down to train with you guys!

Jason

[vingtsunstudent]

'I only condemn bad wingchun and just happen to think alot of people out there practice bad wingchun'
here is the whole problem. with 3 years experience & the possibilty that you may have visited even a dozen different schools, you still wouldn't more than likely know good or bad wing chun if it chain punched you in the face.
i personally couldn't care less about you loving your lineage & raving on about it, hell if you want to post photos of you kissing you beloved teachers butt(which i'm sure you have) then do it but for god sake stop telling us how we all have it wrong.
all you have ever given us to back up why you have it so right is talk of the most basic knowledge of the basics, since you first stared posting here you have shown no knowledge improvements over that of a beginner.
like i said to you before red, there is a whole world out there.
do you understand that yet?
vts

[red5angel]

Why does this concern you so much VTS? Seriously, we had this discussion on another thread and I thought it was over already! Well in my defense I have shown plenty of improvement, in the classroom where it counts. As for knowledge, I stick to the basics because that is exactly where I think the problem lies. Alot of bad wingchun because the basics are bad. You build a house on a bad foundation you have a bad house. If you build a house on a strong foundation you have a strong house. Am I off here VTS?
What are these basics to you? what is it that is the foundation of your wingchun? Mine? Root, precision, structure. Wing chun is full of triangles and thats the triangle of foundation! Is there more, yep but WC is both simple and complex, these are th pillars the rest is built on.

dbulmer - try this, go down in your stance for a few weeks, see if you can hold it at 2 finger widths while you do SLT, then let me know what you think ok?

[yuanfen]

Alot of bad wingchun because the basics are bad. You build a house on a bad foundation you have a bad house.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------Wow!
Two years in minnesota wing chun undera student of carl's and red is ready to pontificate
on a lot of bad wing chun.

No wonder some non wc trolls are at times amused by wc discussions.
There isa whole world of kung fu civility and protocol that is out of the window here. In Minneapolis is one of the greatest kung fu people in the US. Southern Mantis's Gin Foon Mark...He never allows his beginners to rattle on about SPM or to speak for him or his art.

But with the spreading of wing chun- we have a real loose cannon or two on the net-roaming in the forums and pontificating on "a lot of bad" wing chun!!

[dbulmer]

Red,
Sure no problem I'll give it a try - bTW 2 finger widths equates to 2 fists yes?

[pvwingchun]

red5angel

Hey I defended the right to speak one's mind as long as it does not get personal or sinks into the gutter.

As for the stance thing as we do it feet are at about 45 degrees, sink as low as "comfortable" a little more comes with time, don't want to put too much pressure on knees as that is not good. Although as someone with not the best of knees I must say that mine have improved with WC. Knees are one to two fists apart. Should look like you are sitting on the edge of a stool more or less.

The WC stance in my humble opinion is one of the most important pieces of the puzzle. My Sifu showed me a rooting exercise the other day that really for the first time put the power of the stance into perspective.

[Redd]

Originally posted by red5angel

I would agree with you though, if I were offering up challenges to someone else I would expect them to kick my ass! Especially Carl!

Good money says he will.


As for serious crap going down at the seminar, well I would do what I have to do!

That fixes everything.

[yuanfen]

Ever since "Shane"- a man's gotta do what he's gotta do...come back Shane...

[anerlich]

R5a,

the guy that suggested banning you is IMHO a snide wanker who does little except try to pi$$ people off. Few people agreed you should be banned.

You seem to have taken on a self appointed mission to push your point of view, not only on what is good and bad Wing Chun and who teaches the former, but also what this forum is for and how we should all behave on it.

Considering your short length of time in the art, you are underqualified to be the Saviour of Wing Chun and the KFOL WC forum. Also you seem more than a little too absorbed in your own opinions and wisdom. Fanatics and people who are totally sure of themselves get boring after a (short) while, and lots of people can't resist the urge to take the pi$$.

If your Sifu hasn't qualified you to teach or open a school of your own, then you're not ready to teach and not ready to pontificate.

Maybe turn the volume control down a notch or two, you'd find a lot less static coming through the speakers.

[Redd]

Blessed be anerlich and all his offspring.

[red5angel]

dbulmer - "bTW 2 finger widths equates to 2 fists yes?" My fist are much bigger then my fingers, so if I am two finger widths a part my kness are closer then if they were two fist apart.

pvwingchun - yep, I have found that with time your legs tend to loosen up and you find yourself going deeper, not just as you do SLT, but with time you legs seem to get more elastic and flexible.

Anerlich - you could call it a self appointed mission I guess, but that is probably a little inaccurate. I have been talking alot about it lately because a lot of people seem to be wanting to discuss it. As for a saviour of wing chun, well, those are your words not mine. We should all be interested in getting good wing chun out there. Everyone on this forum wants to 'get along' and proclaim that there are limitless ways to do wingchun, I disagree, especially when it comes to the foundational skills. But I digress, I am willing to talk about this with people for as long as they wish to talk about it. I dont mind. I also don't mind offending people although that isnt my intent. As for being stuck in my own opinions, I always consider what other people say seriously, but I havent seen a real good argument here yet against what I am saying. Who would disagree that root is important? Who would disagree that precision is important? Everyone wants to pick on the idea that I believe alot of wingchun out there is crap but hey, thats opinion and opinions can be hard to change, especially over the internet. Its all about time in, and how would you or how could you know type arguments, well, show me where I am mistaken.
Anerlich, you must understand I am trying to be respectful as possible, I really am. It may not seem like it, I have my own opinions and we are all entitled to them. I dont have a problem talking about mine, and I dont mind being challenged on them and discussing them.

[Sabu]

This thread represents exactly why red should be banned... Useleness. Just a means of getting attention, in the guise of an opinion.

Red, no opinion is better than one on subjects you don't understand. One learns and understands sooner.

Stop walking into that door.

[red5angel]

Sabu, I recommend you take a good hard look ats oem of these threads, it has been mentioned on them and in my pm that your style of posting is much more of an annoyance then my own, which goes to say alot if you are paying attention to the responses to mine.
I have no need to get attention, I get plenty of that from my friends and family. This forum is here so that we can talk and share, and that includes opinions. I however am not posting about non wingchun subjects, posting about getting anyone banned, etc, so dont talk to me about wasting anyone elses time. I recommend you put me on your ignore list.
As for subjects you dont know anything about, you are not far from minnesota, I recommend you come for a visit, maybe during the seminar? Then we can discuss and touch hands and see what each of us has to offer as far as knowledge goes. I have two extra bedrooms and a large garage we can practice in. This is a freindly invitation. Otherwise I hae always had the urge to visit Canada, maybe in a few months I can make it up to your area, I believe a few people who post here are from Toronto?

[blkbelt65]

Shut up, you whiny little Troll! Don't you get tired of complaining about people.

If you don't like what RED5angel says......Don't read it!!!!!

[anerlich]

r5a,

your points are good. Trouble is, you've made them about 50 times over apiece. You can't won't and don't need to convince everybody of your point of view. Agree to ****ing disagree for chrissake, let others wallow in their alleged ignorance if they wish.
Especially me!

Sabu, when they give the Nobel Prize for uselessness I'll pay your fare to Stockholm.

[red5angel]

Anerlich, I gotcha buddy, I am moving on.......

[blkbelt65]

"Sabu, when they give the Nobel Prize for uselessness I'll pay your fare to Stockholm."

$HIT,...I was going to post a reply but I'm still laughing at what you said.....**** , that was funny!!!!!

[rubthebuddha]

65-no need. anerlich seems to have the ability to say just the right thing to (hopefully) make a point when it's needed most.

smug bastage. :mad:

;)

[anerlich]

Thanks, guys.:cool:

[yuanfen]

There is no Nobel prize for uselessness- but there is one for
writing- literature and if red5angel gets one soon you can
count on my contribition for a one way ticket to Sweden. Perhaps someone else can chip in for the return. After all a man's gotta do what he gotta do.

[yuanfen]

Thats Norway! A pulitzer for content and style are possibilities too. Closer and cheaper. And you touch a lot of hands!

[Alpha Dog]

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[red5angel]

What I find funny, is that in the other forums people dont seem to have a huge problem discussing issues, even when it gets abusive sometimes! Now, I am not saying it has to get abusive at all but I noticed people really walk on eggshells here and I dont think it is necessary!
Seriously guys and gals, this is a wingchun forum, why not talk about all things wingchun? So far I have been told we cannot talk about people in wingchun, that includes mentioning your own people, other people, other instructors. We can't talk about lineage either, or heaven forbid we mention the way someone does something as bad! :eek:
All I am saying is at the top of this forum it says Wing Chun Forum, which I assumed meant we could talk about anything pertaining to wing chun! Am I way off here? It just seems to me like there is a lot of thin skin here is all. If you are confident in what you believe and what you do why would it be hard to talk about it, even amicably?