Jook Lum S. Mantis

[urban tea]

Relax I'm not here to start a war.

Does anyone know where on the internet I can find some video clips of Jook Lum S. Mantis? Not Chu Gar- I've seen footage on them already. =]


Thank you.

urban tea.

[MantisWill]

http://www.bambootemple.com/txtidx.htm

[Hideous]

urban tea - Relax I'm not here to start a war.

Then you hardly can be considered part of the SPM family now can you? :D

urban tea - Does anyone know where on the internet I can find some video clips of Jook Lum S. Mantis?

http://www.masterginfoonmark.com/movie_download.htm

Master Gin Foon Mark

http://www.carbonecho.com/Kungfu/Videos.dtml

Sifu Norman Chin

urban tea - Not Chu Gar- I've seen footage on them already. =]

Pray tell, what Chu Gar Gao Sifu did you see footage of?








Cannibalism is unequivocally a valid dynamic for all societies. I am, Hideous.

[urban tea]

For Chu Gar, i've seen Marks and Po Yee.s

[Hideous]

urban tea - For Chu Gar, i've seen Marks and Po Yee.s

Mark Foon and Poo Yee are both from the Lum Sang Pai which is Kwongsi Jook Lum Tong Long, not Chu Gar Gao. Having seen both of their hands it is my opinion that Chu Gar Gao is superior.




















Cannibalism is unequivocally a valid dynamic for all societies. I am, Hideous.

[redfist]

what system of kung fu do you study?

[Hideous]

redfist - what system of kung fu do you study?

Why, SPM of course, my friend ;)

And you?

























Cannibalism is unequivocally a valid dynamic for all societies. I am, Hideous.

[redfist]

i to am a student of spm,
i was wondering if you would care to expound upon the reason
you feel that the chu gar gao branch of spm is superior to the jook lum branch,
what differances based on your observations in the method of training and application led you to this conclusion?

[Hideous]

Redfist - i to am a student of spm,

I thought as much, Hung Mei ;)

Redfist - i was wondering if you would care to expound upon the reason you feel that the chu gar gao branch of spm is superior to the jook lum branch,

I do not feel it so much as think it. I do not base my opinion on reason so much as reasons and they are not for public consumption. That is why I expressed it as a personal opinion.

As such it is not an alleged definitive statement of fact and therefore should not be regarded as offensive. As expressed, it is just the personal opinion of a forum member, nothing more, nothing less.

Redfist - what differances based on your observations in the method of training and application led you to this conclusion?

See above and it is not so much from observation as it is from gong sau with more than a few considered skilled in KJL TL over the years.












Cannibalism is unequivocally a valid dynamic for all societies. I am, Hideous.

[yuanfen]

Hideous- Curious- what is it about Chu gar that you think gives
an edge over jook lum training.?

[Hideous]

Yuanfen - Curious- what is it about Chu gar that you think gives an edge over jook lum training.?

If we understand terms as [authentic Chu Gar Gao] and not that horrendous garbage being marketed today and we further limit KJLTL to America [Lum Sang Pai] then I could answer the question.

In order to preclude offending any of my Hakka Tong Long brothers it is necessary to make a disclaimer: This is only my personal opinion based on personal experience over a fair amount of time. I do not claim to speak for any Pai, line, lineage, branch, or person other than myself.

Lum Sang was all of about 5’2” tall and weighed approximately 125 – 130 pounds. His hand reflected the reality of his physical limitations as does the hand of any practitioner regardless of chosen art form. He was also blessed with quick reflexes and excellent connective tissue strength, ligament strength I believe it is sometimes termed.

Therefore, his hand places a premium on the ability to physically displace at or near the speed of strike. Apparently, the expanded foot patterns or stepping methods worked quite well for him and arguably they would work well for another person possessing a similar physical make – up [genetic inheritance].

Furthermore, the hand is characterized by a pronounced Yin quality which is not a detriment in any sense of the word, just a necessary arrangement given that he was ill equipped to enter into close proximity, stay there, stick to the opponent and exchange.

The heavily footwork dependent, premium placed on physically displacing, Yin hand plays well given that you have a very specific arrangement of physical attributes. As with all authentic Hakka Tong Long the angles of engagement are really quite small. The stepping requirements are burdensome to the point of eliminating many otherwise very qualified people. Perhaps unique is a better word than specific. By inference this means limited in terms of those capable of making the hand work. I am not speaking of making the hand work in a high level test of skill but in actual all out fighting.

Having said all the above, Chu Gar Gao, by way of comparison, is far more forgiving with regard to what a person must all ready possess, or have the potential to possess, in order to make it work. Furthermore, Chu Gar Gao’s structures are open to correct interpretation in a much broader context. By this, I mean to say that the hand plays well for a variety of body types and abilities. Those built for heavy rooting, a Yang bridge, bent primarily on issuing telling force will be just as at home with Chu Gar Gao as those more suitable for other application focused arrangements.

Refinement is a logical and necessary component of an art’s growth, would you not agree? Would you not also agree that taken to an extreme, refinement becomes a detriment as it creates an exclusiveness not conducive to an art’s longevity? This begs the question - Of what value is an art that speaks only to the very, very few?

There are several other reason for the position I hold but this outlines the for public consumption portion of it. As for the rest, I keep those to myself.


Cannibalism is unequivocally a valid dynamic for all societies. I am, Hideous.

[Sui]

sorry i'm not from spm but i too know from experience that chu ga is more superior than jook.thats why i'm not allowed to speak ill of chu ga.so hideouse you got off lightly.lol

yuan,nice to see you on the southern where you belong,don't tell me its boring in the w/c section.well you got what you wished for.lol

[urban tea]

To be able to say that Chu Gar is superior to Jook Lum you need to touch hands with the old school sifus..in hong kong. If you just touch hands with white people, that doesnt count

[Hideous]

urban tea - To be able to say that Chu Gar is superior to Jook Lum you need to touch hands with the old school sifus..in hong kong.

I have done so and the old school KJL TL Sifu fared as always, none too well at all. Please tell me, urban tea, of the families left by Lum Sang, many of which live in America, how is it that you are qualified to dismiss them out of hand? Please share with me your insight as to how geography translates to the definitive factor governing skill level? Do be so kind as to tell me how you have personally touched hands with the Elders in the United States and found them lacking in comparison to their HK brothers.

urban tea - If you just touch hands with white people, that doesnt count

So you say, and your racist based opinion is formed in response to precisely what experience and level of skill? Please be so kind as to share with all of us how the concentration of, or lack thereof, melanin is the dominant factor in determining how one fights? Or, do you mean to say that the presence or absence of epithelial folds over the eyes is the primary determining factor in fighting skill? If you lack personal experience then perhaps you would be so gracious as to share with us the historically documented or scientifically validated evidence for your position.
If you will read carefully my post, urban tea, you will notice that I did not state [touch hands] and in fact disallowed such a format of skill comparison in the expression of my opinion. In addition to apparently being a racist you most certainly have a significant and pronounced reading & comprehension problem. Are you mentally retarded, my friend?




















Cannibalism is unequivocally a valid dynamic for all societies. I am, Hideous

[urban tea]

First of all Hideous..you have some personality issues. =]

Have you touched with Gin Foon Mark? Or Lee Kok Leung?

As for the white person remark, i was joking. Relax, i'm not here to start a war.

[Hideous]

urban tea - First of all Hideous..you have some personality issues. =]

Ah, I see. So, in addition to being an authority on SPM you are also a certified mental health professional both qualified and competent to make such determinations. To one with so vast and greatly diverse expertise I bow in your direction.

urban tea - Have you touched with Gin Foon Mark? Or Lee Kok Leung?

Both or which one is none of your business, and the answer is, yes.

urban tea - As for the white person remark, i was joking.

A [joke] you say? Please do not quit your day jobs as SPM expert and mental health care provider as the global economy is in a bit of a stall. You have no potential as a comedian.

urban tea - Relax, i'm not here to start a war.

You bandy around the word war and speak of testing hands with far too cavalier an attitude, my friend. I do believe that you are far less than real and have therefore put you on my Ignore List. Good bye my rather ill informed and retarded friend with the profoundly unfunny sense of racist humor and, obviously, no SPM skill.













Cannibalism is unequivocally a valid dynamic for all societies. I am, Hideous

[urban tea]

WHere on my post does it say that i'm a SPM authority? Please cut and paste for me. I never even said that I trained in the style ****.

Yes you have personality issues and I know i'm not the only person on your ignore list.

Relax, drink a smoothie. Life is great.

[Sui]

"the proof is in the pudding"!!!

[Hideous]

Sui - "the proof is in the pudding"!!!

Agreed my friend, agreed. It is just when the [pudding] source is an exit only canal for matter fecal in nature that the [proof] stinks so horrendously bad. There are some very peculiar people on this forum and I am beginning to think that many of them are not real. I would not be at all surprised to learn that at least some who post here are either here on their own accord or put here by another agent for reason or reasons I cannot presently fathom. Most certainly the answer or answers have little, if any thing, to do with martial arts as a topic of conversation. A very pronounced surreal feel to this whole electronic medium, strange days indeed …




















Cannibalism is unequivocally a valid dynamic for all societies. I am, Hideous

[Sui]

"promotions"i hear a shout,but what is there to discuss?

me personaly like to meet[for real]a challenge of stimulation,for wich i do privatly[test my k.f]its all talk here and to fight everyone is not the aim!you have a deep voice which is related to command.
if we were to meet what of the outcome and the reason for it?to win?to loose?to learn?to teach?

however i would provoke you to fight[no talk]then to........i don't know.three moves we would know for sure.[but no killing]lol

[Hideous]

Sui - "promotions"i hear a shout,but what is there to discuss?

A very good point indeed, my friend. After all, in the final analysis it is in the hands extended against another that the momentary truth of the matter is revealed, would you not agree?

Sui - me personaly like to meet[for real]a challenge of stimulation,for wich i do privatly[test my k.f]its all talk here and to fight everyone is not the aim!

A clear and well stated position, without question. Send me a PM and if you are able to travel then meet we shall.

Sui - if we were to meet what of the outcome and the reason for it?to win?to loose?to learn?to teach?

Why speculate when the truth of the matter might be right around the corner?

Sui - however i would provoke you to fight[no talk]then to........

No provocation necessary, I would put my hands out against you with never word one, a promise.

Sui - i don't know.three moves we would know for sure.[but no killing]lol

The 3 Word Formula is indeed the standard, for serious play. I suppose it would do me no harm to extend my hands in the spirit of play. Although, I truly do not know if they would abide by the spirit. We should all hope for no killing. Such a dreadfully final event with no room for readdress or compliments.



















Cannibalism is unequivocally a valid dynamic for all societies. I am, Hideous.

[Sui]

i wasn't asking

but will cow to your command,travel is possible but timing is impecable.

i speculate for what i learn,not to spread and touch just every fool,infecting what isn't mine.

[Hideous]

Sui - i wasn't asking

Yet, I offered just the same. Ask and ye shall receive, do not ask and some times ye shall also receive.

Sui - but will cow to your command,travel is possible but timing is impecable.

Impeccable timing is often times the whole of the matter, is this not true, my friend?

Sui - i speculate for what i learn, …

Ah yes, understood, a seeker.

Sui - not to spread and touch just every fool, …

Of course, for with contact comes transmission. Is it good, or is it contaminant? That is always a question.

Sui - infecting what isn't mine.

Ah yes, a guardian, or do you prefer to be regarded as a vessel?



















Cannibalism is unequivocally a valid dynamic for all societies. I am, Hideous.

[Sui]

hide
ngai di dow ngi heh la ngin,ngi lem ngai heh mang meh?ngai di dow ngi di-meh tong long pai.heh ngi heh hak-ga ngi sickh ngai gong mag-gai?

ngack ngai mehh:) hahahahaha

[Hideous]

Sui - ngai di dow ngi heh …

The intended purpose of this forum’s creator was to facilitate dialogue, the goal of which is communication with the many, agreed, my friend?

Su - ngai di dow ngi di-meh …

And there is no virtue in capturing something not owned and using it for other than its intended purpose, agreed, my friend?

S - ngack ngai mehh hahahahaha

And if one is truly losing their name, then things previously a concern or burden, will be lost in kind, would you not agree, my friend?


























Cannibalism is unequivocally a valid dynamic for all societies. I am, Hideous.

[Sui]

ok
agreed on all three accounts

are you sincere for i would share my name and my number,so later we could meet in our dreams and then to the "village" i speak of[where chu lyes]

[yuanfen]

Hideous-thanks for your answer to my question.
Lum Sum's joint and ligament usage reputedly was extraordinary-
but there seems to be some people taller than 5'2 in jook lum
who have found the stepping effective and useful.

Sui- all electronic forums have their ups and downs. What I do is a southern art -- so I drop in occasionally and some other forums too- but I dont have a net addiction- quite yet. Hope I never do.

[Sui]

well yuan good for you,but i'm high as a kite on here,cheers:p

[Hideous]

Yuanfen - Hideous-thanks for your answer to my question.

You are most welcome, my friend.

Yuanfen - Lum Sum's joint and ligament usage reputedly was extraordinary-

And that is the whole of the matter as his reputed skill was personal and not system related. I do believe that whatever skill he may have had would have presented in any hand that prized his genetic arrangement. Even conceding that Lum Sang had something special, which I do not, the simple fact remains that he was beaten on more than a couple of occasions after his alleged time in the temple.

Yuanfen - but there seems to be some people taller than 5'2 in jook lum who have found the stepping effective and useful.

You seize on the height factor alone, which is less than honest of you Yuanfen. I am disappointed that you deem it fitting to resort to selective lifting of criteria in order to salvage some position regarding a hand which is not yours.

Our conversation is concluded, Yuanfen. You read as someone argumentative about things which you have no knowledge of beyond hearsay, magazine articles and videos. Most certainly you possess no skill whatsoever in the hand of which you speak.


































Cannibalism is unequivocally a valid dynamic for all societies. I am, Hideous.

[yuanfen]

And that is the whole of the matter as his reputed skill was personal and not system related. I do believe that whatever skill he may have had would have presented in any hand that prized his genetic arrangement.

((I dont know that- have no basis for making a judgement.
Individual propensities do playa role in one's skills))

Yuanfen - but there seems to be some people taller than 5'2 in jook lum who have found the stepping effective and useful.

You seize on the height factor alone, which is less than honest of you Yuanfen. I am disappointed that you deem it fitting to resort to selective lifting of criteria in order to salvage some position regarding a hand which is not yours.

((I am not debating- so there is no salvage to seek. An inquiry about other styles other than one's is a legitimate action on a net list. I mentioned height only because you did- the 5'2"))

Our conversation is concluded, Yuanfen. You read as someone argumentative about things which you have no knowledge of beyond hearsay, magazine articles and videos. Most certainly you possess no skill whatsoever in the hand of which you speak.

((No problem. It takes two to make a conversation. Chu gar- I know nothing of beyond articles. I even remotely made no claim to being either in spm or chu gar.But there are spm folks whose comparative views would be different from yours. Makes fora diverse world. But in part you read wrong-
...but no matter. Cheers and goodbye))

[Hideous]

Sui - are you sincere for i would share my name and my number, ...

I am sincere and there is no need for either your name or your number. Such things are mere window dressing as, in this context, one is the hand, nothing more and nothing less.

Sui - so later we could meet in our dreams and then to the "village" i speak of[where chu lyes]

I have gone, and continue to go, wherever I choose in this world and others. Chu lies no where but in the hands of those who know.




















Cannibalism is unequivocally a valid dynamic for all societies. I am, Hideous.

[Sui]

o.k usa i drop,you win.chu ga is more superior than i and your hands to hide.i don't want to play anymore.
your scaring me now.

[Hideous]

Sui - o.k usa i drop,you win.

I am most sorry, my friend, for I did not realize that a game was being played. My ignorance is such a pity. Was the game both spirited and fun, my friend?

Sui - chu ga is more superior than i

I do believe, that regardless of the art chosen, the art is always superior to the individual. If this was not so, the art would die when the one who was superior to the art died. Would you not agree, my friend?

Sui - and your hands to hide.

My hands are my hands, nothing more and nothing less. So it is with all who walk this path, would you not agree, my friend?

Sui - i don't want to play anymore.

Ah yes, back to the game without a name. I do hope that I enjoyed playing and can only wish that I was made aware before the game began. Such a shame to squander the pleasure of play through my own ignorance.

Sui - your scaring me now.

Ah yes, fear. Truly an emotion strange in all aspects. Without foundation, yet looms large and foreboding. Without substance, yet virtually tangible. Without name, but known to all. So strange a thing, would you not agree, my friend?


















Cannibalism is unequivocally a valid dynamic for all societies. I am, Hideous.

[jon]

If you will please forgive my curiousity.
A few things you have said have sparked a little interest.

"I do believe, that regardless of the art chosen, the art is always superior to the individual. If this was not so, the art would die when the one who was superior to the art died."
* First of all a compliment. Thats a very profound statement and struck something of a cord with me. Still do you not also think that at somepoint the individual brings there own creative experience into the art thereby forging it into a new direction. Although i agree in principal with what you say i also worry that it harks back to the old stigmata of trying to make your skills 'exact' replicas of your sifus.

Out of my own curriousity (and knowing full well that cat rumor) would there be any SPM masters in the West who you do view highly? You have certainly hinted towards there being a few around but are there any you are willing to publicly endorse.


You seem to have something you wish to say but im not sure exactly how your trying to do it.


Sui
Interesting what brings you out of the woodwork :)

[Hideous]

Jon - … struck something of a cord with me.

I bow in your direction.

Jon - … at some point the individual brings there own creative experience into the art thereby forging it into a new direction.

Agreed, my friend, agreed. Can you name the [at some point], my friend?

Jon - … harks back to the old stigmata of trying to make your skills 'exact' replicas of your sifus.

Why would anyone do such a shameful thing, my friend?

Jon - … any SPM masters in the West who you do view highly?

There are several. Howsoever, most of them would reject out of hand the title of Master or even Sifu as they are more in the tradition of the Wanderers than anything else. Strange arts have a tendency to be practiced by strange people would you not agree, my friend?

Jon - You have certainly hinted towards there being a few around but are there any you are willing to publicly endorse.

Most assuredly not, my friend. A public endorsement of one would be interpreted as a rejection or devaluing of the others and beyond being disrespectful conduct that would also be very dangerous. Inasmuch I have neither the right, nor their permission, to name them all I name none.

Jon - You seem to have something you wish to say but im not sure exactly how your trying to do it.

I say what I say and I do what I do. No man or institution puts any chains on me. Do you live with chains on you, my friend?

















Cannibalism is unequivocally a valid dynamic for all societies. I am, Hideous.

[jon]

You are very clever and perceptive i always respect that in a fellow kung fu brother.
You obviously see a LOT and you certainly have the mannerisms and sence of socoratic questioning commen to many others in your circle.
I have to ask, have we had contact before? Im guessing we have even if only in passing.
I wont push you into areas you dont want to go in and i know you wouldnt allow me anyway but i am curious if we have had contact in the past.

I will do my best to answer your questions, please forgive my limited understanding and please feel free to correct or critise how you see fit...

"Jon - … at some point the individual brings there own creative experience into the art thereby forging it into a new direction.

Hideous: Agreed, my friend, agreed. Can you name the [at some point], my friend?"
* Name a point :) Now that is something a Bagua man never wants to do :p
Still i like to think that ALL of us are capable of suppasing our own expectations. At this point i believe the training beguins to become more esoteric and much harder to put into clear words.
Its like building a house (not my analogy) you start with a blue print and follow it, still nothing to stop you adding on extras like a bigger garage or a new pool. After all no one wants there home to look exactly like there neighbours. Then it wouldnt reflect our own life would it?

"Why would anyone do such a shameful thing, my friend?"
* People can be like mules, dangle a carrot and they will follow it over the edge of a cliff. Very few wish to know how the carrot got there in the first place.

"There are several. Howsoever, most of them would reject out of hand the title of Master or even Sifu as they are more in the tradition of the Wanderers than anything else."
* Sadly very commen, higher level arts require a higher level of student. Not much good advertising though the phone book for people willing to dedicate there lives to the preservence of a hand. So many never find a good student, lol and students think we have it tough:rolleyes:
The decision of weather to water down the wine or look for a student with a stronger stomach must be a painfull one.

"Strange arts have a tendency to be practiced by strange people would you not agree, my friend?"
* Very true, very true. As my sifu is found of saying "everyone wants to be healthy and able to fight, very few actualy want to be REALLY good". Maybe it takes someone a little shall we say 'special' :D

"Most assuredly not, my friend. A public endorsement of one would be interpreted as a rejection or devaluing of the others and beyond being disrespectful conduct that would also be very dangerous. Inasmuch I have neither the right, nor their permission, to name them all I name none. "
* Very nicely said, i should have considered your position better before asking such a foolish question. My appologies.

"I say what I say and I do what I do. No man or institution puts any chains on me. Do you live with chains on you, my friend?"
* Only the ones i have shackled on myself, still this is hardly a good thing. When i can remove ALL the chains i think i will have really made an accomplishment.
Im just a student but im a happy one at that, besides who ever wants to stop learning?

Thank you for your time hideous :)
All the best happy training.
Jon

[diego]

im bored so ima drop a jewel :D
the point you make it your own is when you practise countering your teacher, he doesnt hold back he has more experiance but thier is a sence of equality as you know his tools!.

Don't you feel Brightened Now:) :cool: ...

[jon]

diego

hehe if only it where so simple.
If i touch hands with you as a teacher whats to say im using the full range of my skills?
Can i not show you only a small portion yet still manage to to match you considering that i know what you do and DONT know?

Some masters had skills that they never taught to any student. In my mind this is becouse they where simply not capable of explaining how they became able to perform such feats.
Hence advance training is always a personal thing, some people choose one area to excel and yet end up specialising in another.

I think the choice of when to move on is a personal issue, for me i wont leave my sifu untill he either dies or i can no longer learn from him. However this does not stop me from attempting to forge my own path and own direction. Im encouraged to do so hence why not :)

[Hideous]

Jon - I have to ask, have we had contact before?

I would not think so in light of your profile; at least not in this lifetime; perhaps another, my friend.

Jon - Name a point Now that is something a Bagua man never wants to do

You cannot always be the circle as sometimes you encounter those of skill sufficient to make you the point while they remain the circle, would you not agree, my friend?

Jon - Its like building a house (not my analogy) you start with a blue print …

I grasp the significance of your analogy, yet, it is not that to which I was alluding, my friend.

Jon - People can be like mules, dangle a carrot and they will follow it over the edge of a cliff ...

Your example conjures up a funny image in my mind, thank you for the laughter, my friend.

Jon - So many never find a good student, lol and students think we have it tough …

I do believe there is difficulty for all those involved and the burden is of equal weight for student and teacher.

Jon - The decision of weather to water down the wine or look for a student with a stronger stomach must be a painfull one.

Why would anyone limit their options to just these two, my friend?

Jon - As my sifu is found of saying …

His position is true. I would imagine he is of an older generation, is this correct, my friend?

Jon - … before asking such a foolish question. My appologies.

No apology is necessary, my friend. This electronic world is strange to me. Some said [join a forum they are wonderful] while others said [stay away they are terrible things].

Jon - Only the ones i have shackled on myself, …

So it is with us all, my friend, so it is with us all.
















Cannibalism is unequivocally a valid dynamic for all societies. I am, Hideous.

[SPMantisHands]

Aloha

SPM seminar, Hawaii.

We invite all our Kung Fu brothers and the uninitiated in Kung Fu to train and learn from Master gin Foon Mark this July in Hawaii (3 weeks away). Master Mark will be demonstrating SPM Kung Fu, 6 sounds Chi Kung, Calligraphy and SPM Chin Na.

For more details, please visit http://www.masterginfoonmark.com, there is a link from the home page if you would like more details.

We are very honored to have Master Mark visit the Hawaiian islands. We have deliberately limited seats so that it will be a great experience for all our Kung Fu bretheren.

Look forward to meeting you.

SPM Hawaii Branch

[Hideous]

I suppose SPMantisHands post is proper under the heading of this thread as Mark Foon has certainly engaged in more than his fair share of politics throughout the years.

His web sights boast of World Grandmaster is nonsense unless he is referring only to his hand as known by him alone. In that sense, all of us who have walked this path for a time measured in decades are World Grandmasters. As it currently reads absent explanation it is laughable to be sure.

Still, it is good to learn that one of the older guys is up for traveling to spread their hand.

I take it that Mark's physical condition problem is under control and he is not putting himself at risk by undertaking such a long journey.

It has been said that several years back Mark Foon returned to his roots in order to deepen his understanding of matters internal. It has also been said that he lost a great deal of excess fat he was carrying around and returned to his previous trim physique. Is this true, my friend?


























Cannibalism is unequivocally a valid dynamic for all societies. I am, Hideous.