Funny thing, these Internal Martial Arts...

[YiLiQuan1]

In reading through some threads recently, here and on other forums, I find the comments some die-hard adherents to IMA make really interesting...

It seems that in the IMA community there are those that:

1) think Qi exists and can do magical things;
2) think Qi exists, but is simply "outdated, bogus science;"
3) think Qi is one thing, but are actually mistaking it for something else, most typically Jing;
4) think that you cannot really learn IMA unless you are Chinese (which is amazing, since the people most often making this comment aren't Chinese, which seems to invalidate their entire practice outright...);
5) think that a teacher cannot teach IMA unless he/she is Chinese;
6) think that you cannot really learn IMA unless you learn in China;
7) think that their use of romanized Chinese makes them linguistic and cultural experts (and often they likely couldn't tell the difference between two Chinese characters if you held them up in front of their faces), and able to correct other folks' use of romanization;

and my absolute favorite,

8) that they can never really hope to learn how to do IMA anyway, ever, no matter who they study with, no matter how long they study, because the information is just so far beyond our mortal ken...

and the list could go on and on, but I think I've made my point for the folks that matter...

It makes me wonder why so many people even bother to study IMA in the first place, since it seems to be nothing more than a bed of controversial, allegedly false and incorrectly taught or understood styles of fighting... Wouldn't it be so much easier for these people to go and study something else easier for them to grasp and understand?

Just an observation. Feel free to flame away... I'm wearing my asbestos jammies, so no worries...

[count]

Nice post!

Tai chi takes 10 years to learn to fight.

Everyone else are "tai chi hippies" but me.

Hsing-i is linear.

Bagua fighters walk in circles when they fight and only use their palms to hit.

There is no groundfighting in kung fu.

You don't fight in those low stances or use the postures from the forms.

Basics are for beginners.

The only internal arts are tai chi, hsing-i and bagua.

:rolleyes:

[miscjinx]

Why "bother to study IMA in the first place, since it seems to be nothing more than a bed of controversial, allegedly false and incorrectly taught or understood styles of fighting... Wouldn't it be so much easier for these people to go and study something else easier for them to grasp and understand? "


True, it would be easier if I stayed in karate - but my real passion and love is for taiji. There is a lot of crap out there and people that don't have a clue, but there are others trying to piece this puzzle together. I'm doing things none of my previous tai chi teacher have ever taught...so I know none of my previous teachers really understood tai chi either. But they gave me pieces to the puzzle.

It can be disheartening, I call it the Dark Ages of Tai Chi, but there are some that are piecing it together and those willing to trade information and the portions they are working on. Taiji is great, to me. The deeper I delve, the more I find. It is often subtle. I can be nice or it can be devastatingly vicious - with little effort either way.

I just hope to see the Renaissance of Tai Chi.

[Ky-Fi]

"Everyone's stupid but me!"

---Homer Simpson

;)

[YiLiQuan1]

Not picking on your comment "it would be easier if I stayed in karate," but...

Folks also seem to think that the internal arts have some quantum leap skills that are light years beyond the internal styles... Funny, but if you study a real karate style, not some *******ized, plagarized, "new and improved" mini-mall style newly created by some 20-something year old 8th degree black belt named "Master So-and-so," you will find that they have many of the same goals that the internal arts have in their training, many of the same exercises, and produce much the same effect in their combative applications. They just take a slightly different route to get there...

All martial arts end up being really very much the same once you get to a certain point as far as what they are capable of doing. It is how they do what they do that makes them different from each other...

Just my 2 yen.

[count]

All martial arts end up being really very much the same once you get to a certain point as far as what they are capable of doing. It is how they do what they do that makes them different from each other...

Not to me, it's the kind of shape your in when you get there that counts.

Tell us something about Yi Li Chuan?? Methods, training, use of chi:D

[YiLiQuan1]

If you go to www.cyberkwoon.com, and look under Styles (letter "y"), you will find two articles penned by me and approved by our teacher.

Enjoy!

[miscjinx]

External and internal people move very differently. But the external does go towards internal in good schools, eventually. My old karate teacher (actually he's quite good, not a mini-mall style) was getting excited over stuff that he discovered when a large group of black belts got together to study more advanced things. Actually what he told me was stuff I was doing in tai chi. This group was working towards internalizing their movements further. Of course most of them spent 10+ years to get where they were to start internalizing.

I like internal styles...learn the internalization first and then work your way up towards more weight and power. My preference is to come from the other direction.

But I must say the two years I spent in karate was easier than two years spent in tai chi. It is not easy to do it and is somewhat counter-intuitive. In karate I just had to learn forms, applications, and pressure points...and sweat profusely in the repititions. In tai chi, I have to learn to move correctly - it is not easy.

[D15062]

Two examples of karate practitioners who have VERY STRONG internal power are Sensei Oyata of Independence, Mo and Sensei Harril(sp) (Isshin Ryu) of Carson, Ia. A friend of mine trains under Sensei Harril and I have been able to see first hand a little of what he can do. These men are extremely impressive.

So to me, what it all comes down to is, if you can make what you do work and more importantly you enjoy what you do. All martial arts should be enjoyed together. They should not be seperated by the egos and attitudes that are oh so commonly seen in the community.

Dan
(yes Matt it is me your little Yi Li bro)

[Walter Joyce]

Well said Dan.

[D15062]

I knew I forgot something.
I forgot to say that while there are some differences in how they do things and the way we do things. The principles for the most part are the same.

[BSH]

It is always interesting to hear a purely external Martial Artist discussing the differences between Internal and External. My Kung Fu is internal. That doesn't mean my training does not include external training.

I train everyday doing forms, strikes, kicks, bagwork, cardio work, etc. But on top of that, I do Ch'i Gung and other Internal exercises which build Ch'i and Ging.

No matter how much I do strikes and kicks, I will never build the internal by doing my external training alone.

Keep your mind open to what is out there. You may be pleasantly surprised to find something new.

[YiLiQuan1]

You said:


It is always interesting to hear a purely external Martial Artist discussing the differences between Internal and External.

My art is comprised of Xingyi, Taiji and Bagua in combination... Not an "external" art at all...

However, it is always interesting to hear a purely internal Martial Artist discussing the lack of utility of external training... What is San Ti, or Standing, if not an external exercise? Sure, there are internal components, but it also trains the body (not just the qi). What are forms, especially in the very beginning, if not external training?

Based on your comment:


My Kung Fu is internal. That doesn't mean my training does not include external training.

I suspect you intended your post to apply in generalities, not specifically to me or my training. It is good to see an internal MAist acknowledge what their training really does consist of... nearly equal parts of internal and external.

[BSH]

You hit the nail on the head. Why limit yourself. If you are lucky enough to study an Art with both Internal and External, you get the best of both worlds.

The two are not mutually exclusive. You can and should train both simultaneously if it is part of one system. Problem is that most of the internal has been lost from so many of the current systems because the people teaching were not taught the complete system(somewhere down the lineage line).

Just my thoughts

[steve b.]

there a lot af good points made on this thread so i'll put in my opinion,theres a maxim something to the point of from internal to external from external to internal. you don't need to train different styles to get both, currently i study xing-yi and plan to stay with it for a long time,although its good to know about other styles their training methodoligies,its best to train one style if you look at your art carefully you will find a goldmine of things you never thought of i.e,chin-na,throws, dim-mak all from what you thought was pi-quan(in example) bruce lee had a point with his idea of simplifying your art insted of adding more perfect a few then you can realistically defend yourself sooner..well good training to ya

[HuangKaiVun]

One either hits hard - or he doesn't.

internal vs. external = BS.

[YiLiQuan1]

Nice comment...

There is also a simplification principle in traditional arts as well, not just JKD. While Bruce did some very interesting things in his approach, there is really nothing that he did that had not been done previously...

In some Okinawan karate schools, as an example, students were only ever encouraged to "master" one form. Not all the forms, or dozens, or even handfuls. Just one. It was thought that by "mastering" one, the others would open themselves up for understanding...

And in an Isshin-ryu school run by Sherm Harrill in Carson City, IA, there used to be a poster with a story about two men meeting, one a thug and one a karateka. The karateka explains very simply that he has no weapons, only his Empty Hands, but if the thug insists on attacking him, he will use the only weapons he has available, his Empty Hands... Below that story was a quote that asked the question "what are advanced, complicated techniques made from? Basics."

Gotta love how similar all these allegedly vastly different martial arts really are...

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

In the late 60's i began my training in a hard Japanese style (which will go unnamed and you will see why). As i approached testing for my black belt, one of the schools' best kept secrets was revealed to me (under severe penalties for ever revealing).. The ceremony for receiving a black belt was only attended by other black belts.... the secret was this.. until the aspiring black belt could reach green belt status in two other styles, no belt would be awarded. I thought Sensei was nuts, he was not.. a simply brilliant manuever to weed out insincere or unfaithful students, and a great way to gain insights into other arts.. (yes, i got my belt)..

Now, some30+ years later, it is amazing to see how insecure styles have become. They often put down other styles, degrade other practicioners, but.. seldom have the knowledge or competency to adequately support their own styles through articulate discussion. Comparisons made in the spirit of enhancing the MA experience are welcome and refreshing.. sabre-rattling and chest-beating only lend credence to the perception of violent ape-like clans disguised as Martial Arts Schools.. Most evident, whenever i am teaching applications of Tai Chi technique, is the influence of "ego".. i instruct the partners move slowly at first to get the rythmn and flow down.. it is amazing to watch people speed-up to avoid the appearance of having lost the advantage in an exchange.. then, as i explain that the mismatched speeds hurt the training process, denial of the obvious is passionate and excuses abound.. i sense that too few are willing to "invest in loss" to find their own real rewards..

Internal/external?.. is just a path of choice.. in simpler terms, i sense that it is the character of the student that seeks a particular path.. and the character of the teacher that makes that path worthwhile or not.. The student will find their own heart, their own "truth".. some external students will "internalize" it.. some internal students will never move beyond the choreography.. Those that have found their "truth" best demonstrate it by the life lived, by the principles evident in their character.. and by the sincerity with which they motivate their students to be better than themselves.

We can do two things with stones.. throw them at others, or.. make our own house stronger...

Be well..

[guohuen]

Very well said!

[Fu-Pow]

TaiChiBob-

Very well said except you forgot on thing...my Sifu could beat up your Sifu.;)

[BSH]

For those of you that think Internal is slow moving and external is hard training, open your minds.

My interpretation of internal is using your internal energies (Ch'i/Ging) in extraordinary ways.

HuangKaiVun, if I could break your bones with a light slap, but I didn't hit hard, would internal v. external still be BS.

[HuangKaiVun]

I guess I would change my stance - if you could PROVE IT.

When's the last time YOU broke anybody's bone like that in a sparring situation?

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..


When's the last time YOU broke anybody's bone like that in a sparring situation?

Certainly, that is not the intention of a sparring session.. but, with finger-tips touching the slabs, the ability to break 2 8"x14"x1.25" concrete slabs positioned at solar-plexus level is indication enough that the bones would yield to the strike. Still, it is amusing to see so many that believe the power of Martial Arts is evident in the ability to win a fight, or to break someone's bones.. The true power of Martial Arts is in the ability to control one's self.. the best fight, is the one not fought.. and, when unavoidable, the skilled artist controls the situation with respect for the opponent, not dominating the opponent with unnecessary force.. Dignity and honor are trademarks of masters, unnecessary and brutish force are trademarks of immaturity..

Using the same logic as the quoted question would presume, do we then snap someone's neck to "prove" a particular technique works?.. i hope not!

Be well..

[D15062]

Does it really matter if someone can break my arm with a light strike or a forcefull arm block. The end result is the same, my arm is still broke. All that should matter is that if can get the job done with the information you know.
Over in China if you ask to see and external style or a internal style you'll probably get a blank look. If you ask to see a hard style or a soft style, they might have an idea of what your talking about. The point is that they don't look at it like that. All styles tlak about using chi or breath for strenght. This pretty much goes for the Okinawan, Japanese and Korean styles.
All this battling and bickering between the two sides is useless. It was started by the magazines years ago to attempt to classify and lable something they really didn't know anything about and to sell magazines by starting controversy between the two. There's room enough on this planet for all styles. But there's not enough for all the ego's
Look at the Yin and Yand symbol. You can't have one without the other. You can't have too much of one or your out of balance. And the extreme of one turns into the other.

Ok I'm done babbleing now

Dan

[HuangKaiVun]

Taichibob, you feel you are a voice of authority and reason.

Thus I will approach you as a student approaching a teacher.

BSH says that he could break a guy's bone with a light slap. You are saying that you (or somebody you've seen) can smash through a concrete slab with a light fingertip touch. Thus I have some SERIOUS questions for you.

Let me ask you this then: what happens you or a person with this type of ability goes to the supermarket and starts feeling the tomatoes for texture and consistency? Do the tomatoes suddenly start blowing up? And if so, how do oyu avoid it?

Or what about during intimate times with a woman? If you stroke her hair, wouldn't her head blow up? After all, the head is coursing with vasculature and even accupressure points. And how do you burp a baby without causing serious internal damage?

And what happens when you play competitive sports? There's some serious contact to be made in such situations, and there are occasionally people that want to hurt others. How is that guys in the UFC or WCW can grapple with each other and not cause massive internal damage?

How do you go to the toilet without hurting yourself? Wouldn't a ***** or anus explode from that type of contact? I mean, those organs don't even have bones!

I am always open to learning new things, and you guys seem to have a lot to teach. Please enlighten an ignorant like me with your commentary.

[TenTigers]

Huang, I think you misunderstood. Fingertips touching usually means a palm strike from a distance short enough for your fingertips to rest on the surface first. That anus thing was hysterical! It reminds me of a guy who came into my school claiming to posess some G-dknows what iron palm, and said he could strike without touching. I asked him to hit me, and he refused, saying (no joke) "we're talking about a skin-fire burn.) Now, I'm thinkin..."well, a skin-fire burn, y'say? I just GOTTA feel this!" I practically begged him to hit me, but to no avail. But he did sign up for classes. Of course he asked the age-old question,"What rank would I be inYOUR school?" obviously implying that he was far superior to anything we had, I mean Hey, this guy can give you a skin-fire burn! Needless to say, he couldn't hang with the newbies, almost passed out in class, and after reasurring him, that some of these guys have been here for MONTHS, 'You'll pick it up, don't worry" he never returned.
-dang, now I'll never get to see that skin-fire burn thing.

[BSH]

Huang, Excellent questions.

Control is the answer. You should never be taught to grow the energy before you can control it.

I never said that I could break an arm with a light slap. I asked hypothetically. There is much more to internal than breaking an arm.

My point throughout this thread is that many people/arts who claim to be internal have no idea what it is or what it can do.

I also agree that external is wonderful. An accomplished external artist may be able to kick my butt. They me so good that I wouldn't be able to touch them.

I am the advocate for any art which is both internal and external. If you want to learn only external, no problem. That is your choice and I respect it. If you are willing to open up to the possiblity that there may be more out there, great.

TenTigers, right on. This guy may or may not have had Iron Palm. Obviously, he didn't have the external training to make it through your classes. His loss. But, If I were to have Iron Palm, I would not let you know and I wouldn't demonstrate it to you. It would serve no purpose other than to stroke my ego and cause you to either believe what you saw/felt or question and make excuses. Either way, nothing for me to gain and most likely nothing for you to gain. When people go looking for a way to disprove something, they will always find a way. The human brain has an unlimited ability to rationalize anything.

As many people have heard, when the student is ready, the teacher will appear.

[HuangKaiVun]

TenTigers, what you're describing is a VERY DIFFERENT TECHNIQUE than what I thought BSH was talking about.

The technique you described is anything BUT light. You know I've seen and even done it before.

We all know of stories in which a light touch or slap can supposedly cause death. Wing Lam Enterprise's "Kung Fu" magazine/catalog just ran a series of anecdotes about masters with this type of ability. THAT was what I was thinking of when BSH made his "hypothetical" proclamation - and that's what you were thinking of yourself when you were dealing with Mr. Skin-Fire Burn.

Even you could not provide answers to my questions. That's because you and I know how LUDICROUS the concept is in REALITY.

Like you, TenTigers, I don't go by "hypothetical". If someone can truly break bones with a "light slap", I want to see him DO IT. "Hypothetical" doesn't cut it with this type of technique.

In reality, how would a guy deal with his ability to break bones with a light slap? Imagine if he just scored a point for his ball team in rec league and slapped a person five on the hand or (heaven forbid) the buttocks? The damage caused would land the poor teammate in the hospital!

Or what if he clapped his hands following a concert? Would his hands be reduced to splinters of bone rubble? How does a real guy with this type of skill clap in a way that'll protect his hands?

I know how I react to such "hypothetical" situations, TenTigers. Judging from your earlier response, it's clear that your reaction would be the SAME AS MINE.

[BSH]

HuangKaiVun:

I like to speak in hypotheticals and be vague. If I had worked long and dilegently and I had shown that I was of the correct mind, my Sifu might let me learn something incredible like the stuff you read above.

However, what would be the purpose of sharing even the existance of something like that with you. Do these things exist, maybe. In your mind do they exist, absolutely not. Regardless of the reality I live in, these things will never exist in your reality. So be it.

Even with my extremely limited abilities, I have control. An internal master would be able to hit someone full force and do no harm and then tap the person somewhere else and do extreme damage.

That is only if there is such a thing as an internal master.

Science is full of unknowns. Only in the last few decades was the concept of sub-nuclear particles accepted. If there are things going on in our bodies that science cannot explain, that doesn't mean these things aren't happening.

That is only if there is such a thing as ....

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

HuangKaiVun.. i have made an incorrect impression if you believe that i consider myself an "authority", or the voice of "reason".. i only offer food for thought, according to the value it has added to "my" life.. others, like you, will determine what value it has relative to their own experiences.. i offer in the spirit of sharing, certainly not as an "authority"..

Ten Tigers is correct, the reference to "fingertips touching" is relative to striking distance.. it's not "magic", it's a balanced and coordinated effort between body, mind and spirit.. no single aspect of the body, mind, spirit connection is independent of another.. it is us that seperates that unity conceptually due to factors such as belief systems, well-intended (but frequently misunderstood) mentoring, social and religious indoctrinations, personal likes/dislikes, etc.. My personal goal is the integration of the "three harmonies" (body/mind/spirit) into a functional being..

The exaggerated consequences of "magical Chi powers" would be evidence of of uncontrolled use of Chi, if such consequences were valid. but, exploding body-parts are unlikely. A more likely example would be harmful health risks associated with a poor understanding of the "three harmonies" (body/mind/spirit). We will each approach this subject from our own perspectives of likes and dislikes, from our own differing willingness to "think outside the box".. What works for someone is just that, what works for them.. not right, not wrong, simply the result of their own choices.. Part of my own integration of the "three harmonies" is increasing my own ability to be tolerant of the beliefs of others, to accept that the beliefs of others are valid within their own understanding of themselves, and.. that if i maintain a receptive mentality, i may benefit fron the insights of others, regardless of how much those concepts may contradict my own.. resistance to new concepts is the gateway to stagnation.

Again, if i unintentionally implied that i have some "authority" in these matters, i humbly apologize.. regardless of who we are, it is ALL just "opinion"...

Be well..

[HuangKaiVun]

I humbly salute both of you, BSH and Taichibob.

Even though you cannot do these techniques and thus cannot offer me the information I seek, you are both man enough to ADMIT IT.

That said, I have found totally no answers to the questions I posed to either of you and so I remain the same as I was before - UTTERLY UNCONVINCED.

[BSH]

Whether you are convinced or not is of no interest to me. I am not trying to sell you anything.

My advice is simple. If you go looking for something, you will likely find it. Make sure you are clear about what you are looking for. You seem to be looking for proof that internal doesn't exist.

So that we are clear, I have admitted nothing. Maybe I am not man enough after all. But you are right that I cannot offer you the information you seek.

[YiLiJingLei]

All traditional (Chinese) martial arts have various methods of qigong, various principles and mechanics of motion/posture, and varieties of strategies. I've also seen "Internal" stylists being very rigid with too much brute force, or on the opposite end of the spectrum, misinterpreting "Sung" by becoming limp like a damp wrag. Likewise, I've seen "External" Martial Artists with great whole body connection, subtle technique and
fluidity, and great power without brute strength.

I think it's also important to note That "Nei" can also be
translated as "Hidden" or "Secret", and "Wei" can be translated
as "Obvious" or "Revealed", which may make more sense if viewed in a historical context, instead of "Internal" Styles vs. "External" Styles, which is more tabloid-magazine hype than legitimate distinction from one martial art to another.

Therefore, one distinction between "Nei Jia" and "Wei Jia" is to be either an outer student, who's learning just the outer frame, or shell of an art, or a closed-door/inner-circle disciple who's learning the meaty principles that make it all work.

Kind of like learning how to draw: Did your teacher only show you how to "Connect the Dots" (learning applications within forms from break-downs with the keys given progressively by the instructor) or "Tracing" (learning structure, movement, & timing through Copying, direct imitation of the instructor)?
Did the lessons stop there, or did they REALLY teach interactively How to Draw? (learning the underlying principles of motion, perspective, angles, alignment & intention that make each technique work, with depth perception & contrast, how to develop the power & effectiveness of those methods, in regards to how they all flow together from attack, to defense, to counter)? Was your teacher able to take those principles to the next step, and teach how to "Sculpt an Image", how to render an image in a 3 dimensional object (learning the intricacies of various fighting drills to create a "3-Dimensional" understanding of strategy & application, to develop instinctual adaptiveness)?
Keep in mind, there are always art critics. ;)

The real distinction from one school or system to the next isn't so much whether it's "Internal" or "External", but more realistically comes from how much depth a given instructor knows and is willing to share about the given system at hand, whether you're talking XingYi, Shaolin (Nan or Bei), TaiJi, Wing Chun, BaGua, HungGar, LiuHeBaFa, ChoyLiFut, BaJi, or whatever. Then again, how well a student is able to grasp the system, and make it work, instinctually, is just as important. Either way, whatever art, you've got to train hard, with the guidance of a good teacher, and with honest, helpful training partners, whether your learning how to make any system work, no matter what system you're trying to learn. Skill is Skill. There are no shortcuts. Sometimes you have to use hard, sometimes you might have to use soft. The opposite is also true.
I have to agree, there is alot of chauvanism when it comes to martial arts; everyone has thier pride in thier own art, which is good to a degree--you have to have confidence in what you do. But sometimes it's frustrating to train with/learn from someone that is so full of thier own art that they think nothing else has legitimate value. When someone's that out of touch, just try to stand to one side, so you aren't hit with the shock of thier bubble bursting.

But, I could be wrong...:rolleyes: