ALL KUNGFU PEP, MArtist get over here I need you

[dre_doggX]

I am sick of this "Kungfu isnt a good sport" or it cant work in the UFC. Bull I here,

I have snapped, just snapped.
I know that Chen Tai ji Quan and Wing CHun isnt the best in every situation or preference. But I really need your help or your agreement, to but this WAR AGAINST KUNGFU to an end.

About Ninjutsu, I dont know alot about it, but the little I do know I like, and if ninjutsu stylist are good its not that Ninjutsu is the best martial art IMO but that Ninjutsu instructors, or good martial artist, training for the right things, are the right times. Anyway.

about U.F.C


Yeah I plan someday in Entering that then, as Chen Taijiquan.

and I want the Kungfu People here to do so.

Lets train hard, this U.F.C is a sport with rules,

how do I adapt Tai Ji to fight in this competition sport,


I gone to start rigorous training, like Standing MEd, low stances, and speed, sensetivity and Fa-jing, stuff,


Standing Meditiaon and QI-Gong, makes you fast, but I know I'll need to start training in the HEeavy Chen weapons to build strength. come on guys
I want all your advice.


I plan on developing a strong Qi skill, give me all you advice,
and dont stop.

Just keep it coming. Dont tell be I cant do it neither, I have snapped I cant take anymore of this "KUNGFU ISNT GOOD" crap anymore, so If I get em with Tai Ji one of the most misunderstood, Kungfus, I think this will be good for Kungfu artist of more respectable styles, like Wing Chun and San Shou.




wish me luck, I might go to Shaolin (for about a 6 months)before this. I am not sure yet.




Oh and BJJISTHEBEST, it would be something, if I say you there, in five years,


my name Andre Lashley, or Keith Andre Lashley.



Chen style Taijiquan

Stay real

[red5angel]

No real advice but the basics man, keep at it, and work hard. I practice wingchun and I am going to be tourney fighting in a year or two, and I am looking at being effective and doing it right. I wish you luck in your endeavor!

[Royal Dragon]

Hell If I didn't have two herniated disks, I'd be there with you!!!

One word of advice, once you have your foundation down well, cross train with your oposition's styles, so you can learn how to best apply your Taiji Quan against it.

Also, come to Chicago and see Choi, he can really help in this type of situation.

[Brad Souders]

Wouldn't that make him MMA then?

[Shadowboxer]

No, that just means that he knows his enemy. Would you say most BJJers know something about stand up fighting?

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by Brad Souders
Wouldn't that make him MMA then?

If he stay with that way too long, maybe. But if he just come up to prove a point and not going to stay there too long, definitly will not.

[Merryprankster]

Shadow--

Most BJJers are smart enough to realize that standing is not a strength of BJJ and crosstrain to solve that problem. We're pretty open-minded, most of us (exceptions do abound) we would just like some evidence beyond anecdotes and 400 year old stories. Please don't give me the ring is not the street argument. The kwoon isn't either. Only the street is the street and it's too **** hairy to go pick fights these days.

I'm not knocking any CMA--I'm trying to explain the MMA mindset, which you are free to agree or disagree with. There are many good and valid arguments for different viewpoints. It ultimately boils down to what emphasis you place where and why.

Guys like Shooter and his boys are helping provide good evidence. As always, my hat goes off to him.

BTW, I was BORN in Denton :)

[Brad Souders]

If i think i'm reading your question right then. If the bjjers are sticking with sport bjj then not really, but if they are going to enter a MMA fight then they will have an understanding of the standup game. Its like Bustamante saying he is a pure BJJ player.
So say dogg enters this tourney after he gets his solid foundation down and after he quickly cross trains in other arts. And during the whole fight he dominates keeping it on the feet not allowing the grappler to close in and inone final attempt his oppenent gets him to the ground and dogg quick remembers that choke he saw while watching the other styles. So my question is did his primary art win or did his "mixing" of another arts win?

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by Brad Souders
If i think i'm reading your question right then. If the bjjers are sticking with sport bjj then not really, but if they are going to enter a MMA fight then they will have an understanding of the standup game. Its like Bustamante saying he is a pure BJJ player.
So say dogg enters this tourney after he gets his solid foundation down and after he quickly cross trains in other arts. And during the whole fight he dominates keeping it on the feet not allowing the grappler to close in and inone final attempt his oppenent gets him to the ground and dogg quick remembers that choke he saw while watching the other styles. So my question is did his primary art win or did his "mixing" of another arts win?

CMA has ChinNa with the submission moves. ChinNa was added into many CMA styles. Cross training doesn't mean that you must use other styles' moves, you can make your own style's moves to complete the purpose that rised by the other styles' moves. Some situations CMA has not considered since the TCMA should required trainers to achieve certain level before teating their skills.

[NorthernMantis]

Hey Brad-

When he said "crosstrain" I think he meant to sparr with other styles so he'll learn how to utilize his taiji againts those styles, not to learn another art.

[Royal Dragon]

If you want to be a purist, then you need to find skill from your Taji system that work against the MMA guys. Taji is pretty flexible, it shouldn't be hard to do.

[MonkeySlap Too]

Yeah, the proof is in the pudding. The few guys I worked with from BJJ and Sambo laughed when they tried to pronounce Shuai Chiao. After we played, they suggested I change the name to 'Say Ow!' 'cause dang, those throws hurt.

But they still squeezed me real good if (when!) they got me down. :D

I'm past my competition age, but I encourage my students to give it a whirl when they are ready. I would have loved MMA competition in my fightin' years. As CMA guys, we should be confident of walking into that ring. If we aren't, we should rexamine our training preconceptions.

No shame in finding out in the ring. One of the guys in my line cross-trains in BJJ and is getting a rep for having really good stand-up skills. They don't tell him 'oh that's not good, that's not BJJ.' Who cares? The training worked. Those last five words seem really important, yet highly ignored in the 'style' wars.

And oh - just about all the great Kung Fu fighters were 'cross-trainers'. So what if it's cross cultural? Too much baggage. We seem to be so busy carrying it, that we don't have the strength left to fight.

That being said, I focus more on my knife skills than groundfighting - but my choice is based on personal experience. Everyone has different goals. Plenty of kung fu guys wouldn't know how to knife fight either, because it's not 'traditional'. That, it their fault, not mine.

The gist of what I am saying is, identify your objectives. Train for them. Do not allow cultural prejudices get in the way of using what works best for you.

[And he steps off the soap box, asking his asistant for a beer.]

[Le nOObi]

Originally posted by PaulLin


CMA has ChinNa with the submission moves. ChinNa was added into many CMA styles. Cross training doesn't mean that you must use other styles' moves, you can make your own style's moves to complete the purpose that rised by the other styles' moves. Some situations CMA has not considered since the TCMA should required trainers to achieve certain level before teating their skills.


First of all i dont think chin-na was added into CMA styles i believe it was there from the start!

Second of all i dont think CMA hasnt considered certain situations because the TCMA people should reach a certain skill level before testing their skill. Few CMA have say ground fighting forms but the forms are just demonstrations of proper applications of the way a style works. Not all the moves that could exist in a system. Take this analogy for instance when you learn a musical style you learn songs in the style however those songs are only parts of your musical style and more can be composed. Also pretty much every CMA has throws. If these throws were practical on other CMA people it would have been possible to fight people on the ground.

If this isnt true i guess Shoy Chiao is just a crappy martial art because it isnt possible to throw Any skilled CMA guy!

[Le nOObi]

Also since taichi is based on principles i think its possible to integrate other styles moves into it.

[pvwingchun]

dre

Not knowing your much about your style but speaking from a WC perspective, remeber these principles. Speed beats power everytime. If I hit you ten times before you can land that one bomb I will confuse you and your senses.

But better technique can beat speed so make sure you have good technique and speed.

Don't worry about power it will come as your technique improves.

Above all relax and remain calm you think more clearly and can fight better whether it is sparring, in the ring or on the street.

I ageree with R5A stick to the basics. In WC it's all in the basics.

[Shooter]

The ideas are already contained in Tai Chi Chuan which allow its players to adapt their push-hands accordingly, but it requires a proper balance and organization.

-You need a coach who understands Tai Chi and Chi Kung equally as well as they understand the sport and how it's evolving.

-Then you need training partners who can apply pressure to your Tai Chi in the same basic manner that MMA players will.

A Tai Chi school which can provide that type of learning environment is a rare thing.

Best of luck.

[greendragon]

Dogg, remember that it's all about center. in any technique the first thing that moves should be center.

[Merryprankster]

*hands MonkeySlap Too his beer, waves Shooter over for drink.*

[urban tea]

I admire your determination but you'd have to do kung fu quite long to be able to really fight with it. You maynot even use any push hands skills in UFC.

[Qi dup]

Do tons of full contact sparing. And remember to eat lots of lightning and cr@p an ample amount of thunder.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

" Speed beats power everytime."

i was going to laugh at you, but i'll wait until the tyson/lewis fight is a more distant memory.

still though . ..

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by greendragon
Dogg, remember that it's all about center. in any technique the first thing that moves should be center.

Now this is the advanced talk. Most of the TaiChi people I have seen have overy emphasised on relex and softness and lost the center, fallen apart. It is good to hear this statement.:)

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by Le nOObi



First of all i dont think chin-na was added into CMA styles i believe it was there from the start!

Second of all i dont think CMA hasnt considered certain situations because the TCMA people should reach a certain skill level before testing their skill. Few CMA have say ground fighting forms but the forms are just demonstrations of proper applications of the way a style works. Not all the moves that could exist in a system. Take this analogy for instance when you learn a musical style you learn songs in the style however those songs are only parts of your musical style and more can be composed. Also pretty much every CMA has throws. If these throws were practical on other CMA people it would have been possible to fight people on the ground.

If this isnt true i guess Shoy Chiao is just a crappy martial art because it isnt possible to throw Any skilled CMA guy!

First, I think I must make clear that I have said "many", not all. If you do some research, there is more CMA that added ChinNa into the system then the ones that come with ChinNa at the start.

Second, it is true that higher level in the main stream of TCMA do not encourage ground fights. They will insist to stay on feet.

You need to do more research on ShuaiChiao's too. The trowing of ShuaiChaio is a fast finish and usuall done with stand ups. In the purpose of testing one's art, if you have been throw, you lost. No need to struggle on the floor. That is what traditionals alway been. If you are fighting for life/lives, then that you will struggle where ever you are.

It will be also true if your door is good enough and no chance of grabs are given, then there will be no throw. In high level BaGua, it was designed to have such function.

[scotty1]

"Speed beats power everytime. If I hit you ten times before you can land that one bomb I will confuse you and your senses. "

If your ten punches are weak and ineffectual and my one punch is a knockout blow then you're screwed. I would say that speed is a part of power.

Dogg make sure you know your art well. Make sure it is what you revert to when you are being beaten and are punch drunk. Make it your natural way of moving.

Do a shed load of cardio, and pressure test your stuff against MMA guys, not Taiji guys.

Good luck man, you're going to need it, but go for it.

No reason on earth you can't be successful as long as you train for the opponents you're going to meet. If you can train your Taiji to handle the type of people you're likely to meet in the UFC you shouldn't have many problems on the street either.

And you seem to have drive, so you f*cking go for it dude.

:)

[Le nOObi]

Originally posted by PaulLin

Second, it is true that higher level in the main stream of TCMA do not encourage ground fights. They will insist to stay on feet.

You need to do more research on ShuaiChiao's too. The trowing of ShuaiChaio is a fast finish and usuall done with stand ups. In the purpose of testing one's art, if you have been throw, you lost. No need to struggle on the floor. That is what traditionals alway been. If you are fighting for life/lives, then that you will struggle where ever you are.

It will be also true if your door is good enough and no chance of grabs are given, then there will be no throw. In high level BaGua, it was designed to have such function.

Thats not the point i was trying to make at all. What i was trying to say was this, in an earlier post you claimed that the reason so few CMA have groundfighting is because people in CMA are supposed to have a certain level of skill already implying CMA people will never be taken down/dont need groundfighting.

Following that line of reasoning to its inevitable conclusion it would be impossible for one skilled CMA guy to throw another.
I wasnt saying that shoy chiao would be crappy because i think it is about groundfighting because i know its not.

What the point of my post is is that if one CMA guy can throw another its possible for a BJJ guy to take them down.

Also what is this research about CMA's adding Chin-Na you speak of having done?

[Shooter]

and pressure test your stuff against MMA guys, not Taiji guys.

This isn't consistant with my own coaching or personal research. Only a more senior, fellow Tai Chi player can discern the points of failure in practice. This goes hand-in-hand with my previous post. It's an inclusive process. Further fragmentation takes one further from the focus of the training.

[fa_jing]

It helps if you have a coach who has already been through the process of modifying your style to account for the rules and the gloves, be what they may. At the risk of kissing my sifu's ass for the umpteenth time on this forum, let me say that my sifu has a long, varied, competitive fight experience, from the streets to the ring. And he was very successful in MMA events about 5-10 years ago, no he didn't beat everybody, but he beat an overwhelming majority of the opponents he faced, from what I understand. His Wing Chun is excellent. Using skills and techniques developed from Kung Fu, and a training regimine both traditional, and coming from boxing and JKD. Don't even try to tell me what he does is not Kung Fu. I think we all agree that the techniques and theory from CMA are great, but if you want to fight in the ring, you have to train like the ring-fighters train. Not exactly the same, but supplement your traditional training with jumping rope, bag work, extra sparring, put gloves on while you do your drills, etc. Just in case your class doesn't already address these training elements.

-FJ

[fa_jing]

Although it is usually good to try out your stuff against other styles, once you reach a certain skill level.

-FJ

[Shadowboxer]

I was just telling Dogg to get familiar with what the guys he'll face will try to do to him, so he can learn to counter it using his own stlyes' tools that are available. That's what I meant about most BJJers knowing something about the standup game.
You learn how to deal with strikers, right? That is, how to time them, keep your distance until you are ready to shoot in, that kind of thing. The ring and the Kwoon are not the street I agree.
For me personally right now, I don't think I need to learn the groundgame. Luckily, I have found and excellent teacher who teaches groundwork within our WC principles. I am learning to counter grapplers using WC, not by learning another art. I believe in looking within one's system for questions that may arise. I am at the point now where Sifu feels I am ready to spar with other styles (2 years of WC). Besides that, I am somewhat familiar with grappling from growing up and a MA club at school.
I know how to "swim" .
:)

BTW- I'll be in D.C. soon for work. Whereabouts are you? If I'm staying close to you, perhaps we could meet?

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by Le nOObi


Thats not the point i was trying to make at all. What i was trying to say was this, in an earlier post you claimed that the reason so few CMA have groundfighting is because people in CMA are supposed to have a certain level of skill already implying CMA people will never be taken down/dont need groundfighting.

Following that line of reasoning to its inevitable conclusion it would be impossible for one skilled CMA guy to throw another.
I wasnt saying that shoy chiao would be crappy because i think it is about groundfighting because i know its not.

What the point of my post is is that if one CMA guy can throw another its possible for a BJJ guy to take them down.

Also what is this research about CMA's adding Chin-Na you speak of having done?

The 2nd and 3rd paragraph you may over looked or not understand how I put in writing. That is what TCMA has always been in the aspect of throw and ground fight. I am not saying that this is the only correct way to view it, but that is how TCMArtists form the past has been choosen to view and how I organizing my training.

If you want to talk about the TCMA history, I think we should open another thread, it is OT here. It will be very long too, and I really hate history exams.

[Le nOObi]

i think this is an example of miscommunication all i was trying to say is its possible for BJJ people to take cma people down to grapple with them!

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by Le nOObi
i think this is an example of miscommunication all i was trying to say is its possible for BJJ people to take cma people down to grapple with them!

Agree, there is such chance. And TCMA are train to prevent such a chance in priority, to deal with such chance as back up. This is kind of main stream, generalized view of TCMA. There are some people in TCMA speciallized in ground fight too.

[LiteBlu]

If you're serious about competing in the UFC then get as much full contact sparring experience as you can and expose yourself to sparring against as many martial arts styles as possible.

Get your muscles used to fighting on the ground and know your escapes from submissions and bad positions (so you can carry on with your own course of action) because no matter what everyone else tells you, your going to spend at least half the fight time rolling and scrambling for position.

Remember cross training and exposure to different MA is the key. Don't think that you cannot be taken down.

Other than that, good luck! :)

[greendragon]

break timing - cloze distance - INTENT when striking

[Unmatchable]

The idea of becoming the "Tai Chi" Heavyweight Champion of the World" is a very recent concept, probably of American origin. These arts were designed for the battlefield, and surival purposes.

As for why most fighters seem incompetent these days, I don't think that is a failing of the martial art, moreover a failing of the 'fighters' themselves; so to answer your question, I would have to say, martial arts just ain't what they used to be. Moreover, I believe we are seeing the reality of a breakdown in ability that probably always existed, with good or even exceptional fighters being fairly few and far between, regardless of style.

[Unmatchable]

The Lei Tai platform challenge fights in pre revolutionary China, and competitions were far different than what we see today. These things basically had no rules, and were fought on a raised platform. People got killed in these events, or at least came out with something broken. The Chinese government banned this, and eventually formed Sanda. Traditional wushu stopped being sponsored, and was not designed for Sanda. But there were some exceptions like Yao Chengguang who in 1982 took part in one of the first of san da tournaments. But after the first fight, when he knocked his opponent out uncounciou in first round, he was forbidden participating in san da tournaments, because his explosive power was too powerful.

[African Tiger]

You da man, dredogg. Make Undercover Brother proud!

[Merryprankster]

Shadow--

Shoot me an e-mail. I'll try to get to it soon.

javalentine11@
hotmail.com

[dre_doggX]

one of the things that improve my speed was the use of still postures, I think I should do more of that.

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by LiteBlu
If you're serious about competing in the UFC then get as much full contact sparring experience as you can and expose yourself to sparring against as many martial arts styles as possible.

Get your muscles used to fighting on the ground and know your escapes from submissions and bad positions (so you can carry on with your own course of action) because no matter what everyone else tells you, your going to spend at least half the fight time rolling and scrambling for position.

Remember cross training and exposure to different MA is the key. Don't think that you cannot be taken down.

Other than that, good luck! :)

Last time I have just seen a vedio tape of one Japanese fighter (forgot his name) who defeated 4 Gracies, and he don't really roll on the ground with them and mostly soft and relaxed, has many of tendon used in his moves. I think that is the correct direction against the ground rolling type for TCMA.

To have the way of not rolling on the ground styles is what TCMA is about, if rolling with them, It would become a BJJ or mixed MA.

[chingei]

Originally posted by PaulLin

I will be careful not to fall for ground tricks and I will hae the way of not rolling on the ground styles, cause that is what TCMA is about, if I roll with them, I would become a BJJ.

does that mean that if a grappler punches he 'becomes' a boxer? should he train to 'avoid' punching? or should he seek out punchers who will train him to be the best puncher he can be? etc.etc.etc.

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by chingei


does that mean that if a grappler punches he 'becomes' a boxer? should he train to 'avoid' punching? or should he seek out punchers who will train him to be the best puncher he can be? etc.etc.etc.

Gee, I don't know, you have ask that to a boxer or grappler. I only know how the TCMA has alway been. Nowadays, it is not a big problem to have multi-style or mixed styles. Only if you want to deal with the matter the TCMA way that we have done in the past, then that matters.

[Le nOObi]

Originally posted by PaulLin

To have the way of not rolling on the ground styles is what TCMA is about, if rolling with them, It would become a BJJ or mixed MA.

Well i think thats true when you take moves directly out of another system because you like them and dont pay attention to if the moves work within the principles of the system but i think you can fight with groundfighting in you TCMA as long as the moves are within the principles of your system.

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by Le nOObi


Well i think thats true when you take moves directly out of another system because you like them and dont pay attention to if the moves work within the principles of the system but i think you can fight with groundfighting in you TCMA as long as the moves are within the principles of your system.

True.

[chingei]

Originally posted by PaulLin


Gee, I only know how the TCMA has alway been.

I don't think you do.

[Le nOObi]

Originally posted by PaulLin


True.


Yay agreement!

[HuangKaiVun]

If a person gets attacked in bed by an assailant, should he NOT groundfight because it's against his supposedly TCMA principles?

That's why I agree 100% with chingei.

[chingei]

Originally posted by HuangKaiVun

That's why I agree 100% with chingei.

you are clearly a genius.



:D

[HuangKaiVun]

I don't think so.

It doesn't take a genius to feel the same way you did in your post.

[chingei]

Originally posted by HuangKaiVun

It doesn't take a genius to feel the same way you did in your post.

Yes it does, ******!:cool:

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by HuangKaiVun
If a person gets attacked in bed by an assailant, should he NOT groundfight because it's against his supposedly TCMA principles?

That's why I agree 100% with chingei.

There is difference when you are in a sparing that is attempt to improve your arts or it is a live and death situation. I guess you are preparing to handle the assailant in bed every night.

[LiteBlu]

Paul Lin.

That Japanese guy that defeated 4 gracies (Royce, Renzo, Ryan and Royler) was none other than the greatest showman and the best middle weight fighter in the world, Kazushi Sakuraba.

And what did he cross train in? You guessed it. He started as a pro wrestler doing catch and submission wrestling, and yes he did some cross training in Beverly Hills Jiu Jitsu Club.

Almost all of his matches were finished by submission. Except when he kicked the **** out of Royce Gracie's leg until it was broken.

You might want to use another example when comparing ith TCMA because Sakuraba did cross train, and DID roll with the Gracies and DID beat them at their own game.

And your not comprehending what I am saying about cross training. In TCMA, do you get taught how to escape submissions and bad positions while on the ground? If yes, then that's great! If no, then how are you going to escape those bad positions so that you can carry on to use CMA principles to win the fight. Of course your not going to try to submit a grappler, but to escape from a bad position so you could then apply a CMA technique to end it. Am how are you to learn to do that? By cross training in any kind of grappling art, unless you already get taught how to escape in TCMA. So you don't end up rolling with a grappler but to escape and stand up ASAP.

And let me re iterate. In the ring you are going to end up rolling on the ground for at least 50% of the time. SO YOU HAVE TO TRAIN FOR GROUNDFIGHTING. Whether it be sub wrestling, BJJ, some kind of chinese wrestling... anything. As long as you are used to being on the ground, escaping or fighting, whatever you choose. But to say that and carry one with the attitude that you don't need familiarity with ground escaping or fighting methods because you cannot be taken down or saying that you can knock out your opponent before they can take you down is very bad fo your health especially in a cage match such as the UFC nd ring matches such as Pride.

[scotty1]

"In TCMA, do you get taught how to escape submissions and bad positions while on the ground? If yes, then that's great! If no, then how are you going to escape those bad positions so that you can carry on to use CMA principles to win the fight."

Liteblu is right. If you think about the origins of Kungfu then there is no shame in saying there are gaps in the system if there are.

The way I see it is: Kungfu was designed for fighting on the battlefield (no ground game) and against other Kungfu stylists, right? So no real need for a ground game. Geographically it would have been quite difficult to spar against other styles back in the day, right?

So its not a real bad thing to admit, OK, my style has no defense against this because historically there was no need for it.

We are living in an age where something that previously would not have been a threat now becomes a threat because of the nature of modern training and the availability of modern styles.

Does that make sense? Is it even accurate? Someone who has more knowledge of Kungfu, history whatever may be able to refute or confirm this....

[Le nOObi]

Originally posted by LiteBlu

And your not comprehending what I am saying about cross training. In TCMA, do you get taught how to escape submissions and bad positions while on the ground? If yes, then that's great! If no, then how are you going to escape those bad positions so that you can carry on to use CMA principles to win the fight. Of course your not going to try to submit a grappler, but to escape from a bad position so you could then apply a CMA technique to end it. Am how are you to learn to do that? By cross training in any kind of grappling art, unless you already get taught how to escape in TCMA. So you don't end up rolling with a grappler but to escape and stand up ASAP.


Many TCMA are not really a set of moves but a set of principles. I believe it is possible for a TCMA guy to cross train BJJ and remain totally traditional. Also TCMA have standing submission things so why couldnt they have submissions on the ground.

This is a badpost by me because it really lacks a conclusion so its more like a stream of thought.

[Le nOObi]

Originally posted by scotty1
". Geographically it would have been quite difficult to spar against other styles back in the day, right?

....

Well on that subject your pretty wrong! I mean arts like choy li fut , hung gar and northern praying mantis were all created out of crosstraining.

[HuangKaiVun]

That's right, PaulLin.

I don't like the idea of somebody being able to abuse me when I'm lying in bed - and neither do my female students (especially those who HAVE been attacked before).

In real life, people attack you when you're most compromised. Unlike you, I intend to be READY for such realities. I thus train my martial art for any situation anytime anywhere against anybody.


scotty1, kung fu men back in the day went wide and far to test their arts against all sorts of competition.

In the vastness of kung fu, there's everything from groundfighting to legfighting to strictly standup. The notion that kung fu didn't adapt itself for groundfighting is true for some styles but not for quite a few others. Lama, shuai chiao, and Seng Men are but a few styles I can think of that took these things into account.

Besides, it's the limited and low-level kung fu fighter who can only extend his art to the ranges of combat covered by his sifu. Such students aren't true students of kung fu - they're just imitators. If a student truly has kung fu, then he'll be able to innovate his own solutions using the principles of the style he learned.

In kung fu, it's better to be a stutterer than a parrot.

[Le nOObi]

Great post Huang i agree 100%

[scotty1]

"Well on that subject your pretty wrong! I mean arts like choy li fut , hung gar and northern praying mantis were all created out of crosstraining"

Crosstraining with what? Other MA styles or other Kungfu styles?

If your style of Kungfu has the answers for dealing with a BJJ stylist on the ground (escapes and what not), then fair enough.

[Le nOObi]

Originally posted by scotty1
"Well on that subject your pretty wrong! I mean arts like choy li fut , hung gar and northern praying mantis were all created out of crosstraining"

Crosstraining with what? Other MA styles or other Kungfu styles?

.

Oh other kungfu styles but these styles were pretty **** diverse.There are giant differences between the different styles of kungfu. As for non-kungfu styles european wrestlers did challenge kung-fu masters as well as japanese stylists although i dont think any kungfu styles were majorly influenced.

[scotty1]

"As for non-kungfu styles european wrestlers did challenge kung-fu masters as well as japanese stylists although i dont think any kungfu styles were majorly influenced."

This is what I was getting at, Kungfu's exposure to groundfighting back in the day.

If the only exposure was to other standup styles because (for whatever reason) fighting on the ground was not desired, then how would the style develop any form of groundfighting defense, or methods of fighting on the ground? Even if only to get out of a submission/whatever and get back on your feet.

What I'm saying is, if Kungfu styles were not exposed to groundfighting when they were being developed why on earth would they have techniques to counter that?

IE. why should we expect past masters to have allowed for a future problem?

Of course, this is all a big if, and a lot of conjecture on my part, but really I'm just stirring it up a little.

"european wrestlers did challenge kung-fu masters...although i dont think any kungfu styles were majorly influenced"

Is this because:
A) outside of challenge matches there was no need for defense against groundfighters ?

or

B) there was already defense against groundfighters in the style?

And if you choose B) what would have made the developers of the style decide to incorporate those defenses if they were not really necessary?

And if they were necessary, why does everyone always go on about Kungfu being a battlefield art and "if you hit the floor you're dead"?

Logical inconsistencies, probably due to gaps in my knowledge.

[HuangKaiVun]

scotty1, it's like this:

Whenever two guys of ANY STYLE fight, grappling often comes into play.

Just because kung fu masters didn't do BJJ or Greco-Roman wrestling didn't mean that they never grappled. Any kung fu master who has fought has done his share of grappling. The notion that kung fu masters were merely strikers is just bunk. Why would styles develop qin na?

Similarly, just because a guy gets knocked down doesn't mean that the fight ends there. He'll either try to get up or take the opponent down with him. A guy had better at least be able to defend against that, and that's why true battlefield styles take such considerations into account.

As far as adapting to unfamiliar situations, well, that's the name of the game not just for kung fu but ANY fighting art. By having a clearly defined set of core principles and methods of training them, the high level practitioner doesn't automatically get his butt beaten just because his opponent is new. A true kung fu fighter would adapt his art to the ground game or any other situation he encounters.

Dealing with grappling escapes is the province of each styles' essence. A true practitioner will reflexively do what his style ingrained into him (e.g. drop elbows) if he knows his kung fu. Real fighting isn't about "countering X with Y" anyhow.

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by LiteBlu
Paul Lin.

That Japanese guy that defeated 4 gracies (Royce, Renzo, Ryan and Royler) was none other than the greatest showman and the best middle weight fighter in the world, Kazushi Sakuraba.

And what did he cross train in? You guessed it. He started as a pro wrestler doing catch and submission wrestling, and yes he did some cross training in Beverly Hills Jiu Jitsu Club.

Almost all of his matches were finished by submission. Except when he kicked the **** out of Royce Gracie's leg until it was broken.

You might want to use another example when comparing ith TCMA because Sakuraba did cross train, and DID roll with the Gracies and DID beat them at their own game.

And your not comprehending what I am saying about cross training. In TCMA, do you get taught how to escape submissions and bad positions while on the ground? If yes, then that's great! If no, then how are you going to escape those bad positions so that you can carry on to use CMA principles to win the fight. Of course your not going to try to submit a grappler, but to escape from a bad position so you could then apply a CMA technique to end it. Am how are you to learn to do that? By cross training in any kind of grappling art, unless you already get taught how to escape in TCMA. So you don't end up rolling with a grappler but to escape and stand up ASAP.

And let me re iterate. In the ring you are going to end up rolling on the ground for at least 50% of the time. SO YOU HAVE TO TRAIN FOR GROUNDFIGHTING. Whether it be sub wrestling, BJJ, some kind of chinese wrestling... anything. As long as you are used to being on the ground, escaping or fighting, whatever you choose. But to say that and carry one with the attitude that you don't need familiarity with ground escaping or fighting methods because you cannot be taken down or saying that you can knock out your opponent before they can take you down is very bad fo your health especially in a cage match such as the UFC nd ring matches such as Pride.

I think that Sakuraba did crossed train more than just what you have metioned, at lest, I can recognize some WhiteCrane like power strikes that don't existed in JJ or wrestling. I have only seen the 4th Gracies defeated and he didn't roll on the flow with him, in fact, he used a lot of join lock techniques to prevent form roll on the ground himself and remain controll of his own body weight pressure position on Gracie by stood/sit up. Did Sakuraba roll on the floor with other Gracies? I haven't watch that, but I will bet that is less successful than this one.

My stand point on not to emphasis ground fight in TCMA point of view is not that groung fight should not be train at all. It served as a back up. You must pass through the door, which should be closed by your hand tech, leg tech, and steps. You must also dislink your opponent's limp form body center inorder to make any submission move works. And the result of emphasising on the ground fights as I have seen now is making people way under train on the door garding and the linking applying. These are very important TCMA application elements, they are priority elements.

One other element is rooting, and the stage in UFC kind of fight has the floor favorit ground fight rather than rooted fight. Regular floor wouldn't be the same. TCMA can try to modified to root on the opponent's body instead root on the floor for that kind of environment.

Knock out the opponent don't work that well because first, no root advantage, second, the other 50% that made the knock out is in your opponent. If that 50% wasn't there, you can't force it, not going to work well. But you can't wait for that chance too long, you will get a yellow flag.

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by HuangKaiVun
That's right, PaulLin.

I don't like the idea of somebody being able to abuse me when I'm lying in bed - and neither do my female students (especially those who HAVE been attacked before).

In real life, people attack you when you're most compromised. Unlike you, I intend to be READY for such realities. I thus train my martial art for any situation anytime anywhere against anybody.


Excuse me, I have never though of women's self-defense aspect. I am thinking of MA sparing for improvement. You are right, I do see your point now. That is like a must have for that purpose.

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by Le nOObi


Many TCMA are not really a set of moves but a set of principles. I believe it is possible for a TCMA guy to cross train BJJ and remain totally traditional. Also TCMA have standing submission things so why couldnt they have submissions on the ground.

This is a badpost by me because it really lacks a conclusion so its more like a stream of thought.

Just like what you have said, the principles are the most important in TCMA. That TCMA didn't totally exculde ground fights, it is not the main steam and not the priority for training.

Well, if you rely more on the door garding and linkings, you will have weak spot in ground fight, as same as now most people out there rely on ground fighting and got weaken in the door garding and linking. But door garding and linking have the priority in training for TCMA and that is what I am focusing on. If you have a strong center, you can link your limps well and wouldn't be disconnected. If you have your door close good, no grab can come through.

[HuangKaiVun]

"If you have your door close good, no grab can come through"

Not true.

If a guy like Ken Shamrock or Oleg Taktarov wants to grab you, by golly he's going to grab you.

Unless you're bigger AND tougher AND more skilled than Ken Shamrock or Oleg Taktarov, you're definitely not going to be able to stop him simply by closing off gates.

To just SURVIVE a fight against that kind of talent, simply being able to perform in a standup situation is not enough no matter how talented you are.

[dre]

Grind one into the ground for me Dredogg.

[scotty1]

Thanks for the response Huang:

What you are saying is that many styles of Kungfu have principles rather than techniques for escaping from bad ground positions and avoiding takedowns.

Agree?

[HuangKaiVun]

Agree.

Keep in mind that not many people teach or do kung fu that way, though.

[scotty1]

So, assuming that you find a teacher who does train it in that way, there is no need to cross train to find the answers to grappling, merely train against people who you will have to use those principles on.

However, if your teacher does not train those principles then maybe cross training is the only option left. What do you think?

Especially if the system is perfect for you in every other way - rather than leaving it for another system that teaches groundfighting principles, stick with the system you are with and cross train to fill the gap.

What do you think?

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by HuangKaiVun
"If you have your door close good, no grab can come through"

Not true.

If a guy like Ken Shamrock or Oleg Taktarov wants to grab you, by golly he's going to grab you.

Unless you're bigger AND tougher AND more skilled than Ken Shamrock or Oleg Taktarov, you're definitely not going to be able to stop him simply by closing off gates.

To just SURVIVE a fight against that kind of talent, simply being able to perform in a standup situation is not enough no matter how talented you are.

Consulting a true BaGua master about that. We have actuall techniques of garding our door, not just simple shout out, they were mostly slippery and containue turning. But most BaGua you can find out there were big-mouthers.

The big and strong idea of door garding is wrong. You will need qi+hand skill+steps+good linking and dislinking tech.

[LiteBlu]

LOL! Paul Lin you crack me up good!

LOL @ Sakuraba doing "White Crane like power strikes"! LMFAO!


Please do me a favor and look up Sakuraba at www.sherdog.com.

Look at his record and tell me how he defeated the Gracies.

1. He defeated Royler Gracie by submission (Kimura).

2. He defeated Royce by breaking his leg by kicking it over and over again which took over an HOUR!

3. He defeated Renzo by submission (Kimura)

4. He defeated Ryan by decision.

So how did he defeat the Gracies by the most economical and efficient way possible? By SUBMISSION. And how did he do that? By ROLLING with them.

Sakuraba miht be a good striker, bt his strength is in his submissions and that's how he wins against most of his opponents.

And where does he train? At the Takada Dojo for goodness sake. It's a pro wrestling organisation that cross trains in sub, catch, BJJ, boxig and some muay thai. So please retract those wild claims about "white crane like power strikes". You probably saw him doing one of his mongolian chops to entertain the crowd. IT'S A CIRCUS TRICK THAT HE DOES in the ring to keep us all entertained.

And please do your research and not claim that his past fights with the Gracies were less successful because he used submissions. That's simply a lie. He rolled with the Gracies and won. Fights were ended much quickly and decisively against the Gracies when he used submissions against Royler and Renzo. And the fights against Royce and Ryan took longer.

You yourself said that haven't watched all his ights with the Gracies and yet you assume such things about Sakuraba. Please watch all of it first before you make a comment.

"...the battle against ignorance is a never ending one."
- Paul Lin

And contradictory to whatever you guys think: KUNG FU IS NOT A COMPLETE SYSTEM, it never was, it never will be, as is BJJ, Muay Thai or any other fighting art. Your unwillingness to learn, cross train and expose yourself to different martial systems will directly translate to your ass being beat down on a street corner.

[HuangKaiVun]

Then let's put a "true Ba Gua master" against a Shamrock or Taktarov, PaulLin.

We'll see how well standup skills fare against overwhelming size, strength, conditioning, and battletesting.

I guarantee you that your myths about what kung fu can and cannot do will be dashed to the ground the way LiteBlu is exposing you.

[PaulLin]

Most people are the type of must seen then understand, can never foreseen. It all come down to the time when things stright out. Ignorance or not noly can tell by time. I am not interested to prove to every one that people should not taken gound fight, I am saying that the real TCMA is not seen yet, I don't blame you for not believing me, cause I haven't seen any one done that out there either.
Real TCAM is no joke, and the veiw is if we should stood up and fight like a human as much as we can.
There is some things deeper that have never shown, that is why ground fights was so hot. A correct submission move wouldn't be so slow and resisable like what I have seen in UFC. Again, you will not agree again, cause you have never seen one.

All I can say is just wait, and I am just here to giving more info on the side that you guys has no idea of, so that these will be a common known before they are stolen by other non-CMA. When the time is right, you guy will see. Just be patient.

Also, usually a winner want to keep on winning, they won't let you know where his skills are really form, I don't really trust on the list that was shown publicly, only the fighter himself knows the truth.

[PaulLin]

Oh, plus, they way this generation of Gracies are going, they will not have a chance to enjoy a healthy long life. To win in the ring and lost in the real life is not what TCMA encouraged. That is why TCMA needs much longer time to train, since we need working on both side at the same time.

[KnightSabre]

LiteBlu,

Good call, LOL @ them trying to claim one of the best MMA's as one of their own.Sakarabu fights using submissions like no other,he even started using the guard when turtling became a dangerous position.

Paulin,
Actually if you look at Helio Gracie who is somewhere in his 90's he is still able to roll with Rickson and his other sons,so I think longevity has nothing to do with BJJ versus traditional arts.

[Le nOObi]

Originally posted by KnightSabre
LiteBlu,

Good call, LOL @ them trying to claim one of the best MMA's as one of their own.

I know its hard for you believe that actual kung-fu people are not an ignorant bunch of people that know nothing about reality/ all have the same views but i only saw one person claiming that sakarabu cross trained in white crane.

I think you should change your post from lol@ them to lol@him.

[LiteBlu]

Le Noobi is correct. It was only Paul Lin that claimed Sakuraba did white crane. But LOL that's a crack up!

Paul Lin: Now the submissions in the UFC are too slow for you? You even said that the submissions done in the UFC are not properly executed? OMFG. ****, you gotta show us how it's properly done! LOL!

And we haven't seen REAL TCMA yet? Then WHEN ARE GOING TO SEE IT?

Look at my profile. I'm doing wing chun at the moment and at the same time BJJ also. Wing Chun Kung Fu is as good as any stand up martial art but what for God's sake am I going to do when I get taken down and am on my back getting mounted? Use the centre line and try to eye gouge or chain punch? DO YOU THINK I'M CRAZY? Punching from the centre is an open invitation to an arm bar at that position or even an upside down triangle choke and then I'll be sleeping like a baby. That's why I also take BJJ, so I know how to escape from a terrible position like that and apply Wing Chun techniques on my opponent or God forbid even try to scramble to a dominant position use a submission hold.

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by KnightSabre
LiteBlu,

Good call, LOL @ them trying to claim one of the best MMA's as one of their own.Sakarabu fights using submissions like no other,he even started using the guard when turtling became a dangerous position.

Paulin,
Actually if you look at Helio Gracie who is somewhere in his 90's he is still able to roll with Rickson and his other sons,so I think longevity has nothing to do with BJJ versus traditional arts.

I am not saying the BJJ style art would have to do with it, it is how the attitude and what you do with the art that has to do with it. I mentioned this generation of Gracie, not the previous generation. If they don't change the way they were doing with their arts, that will be impossible to have a healthy long life.

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by LiteBlu
Le Noobi is correct. It was only Paul Lin that claimed Sakuraba did white crane. But LOL that's a crack up!

Paul Lin: Now the submissions in the UFC are too slow for you? You even said that the submissions done in the UFC are not properly executed? OMFG. ****, you gotta show us how it's properly done! LOL!

And we haven't seen REAL TCMA yet? Then WHEN ARE GOING TO SEE IT?

Look at my profile. I'm doing wing chun at the moment and at the same time BJJ also. Wing Chun Kung Fu is as good as any stand up martial art but what for God's sake am I going to do when I get taken down and am on my back getting mounted? Use the centre line and try to eye gouge or chain punch? DO YOU THINK I'M CRAZY? Punching from the centre is an open invitation to an arm bar at that position or even an upside down triangle choke and then I'll be sleeping like a baby. That's why I also take BJJ, so I know how to escape from a terrible position like that and apply Wing Chun techniques on my opponent or God forbid even try to scramble to a dominant position use a submission hold.

Did I claim Sakuraba crossed trained with white crane? why don't you using my quote to back that up?

I said it is white crane like. obviously you have no knowledge in white crane. White crane--shaking style--has special way of striking and no other arts has ever done the same. Only Chen Style TaiChi and TungBei has come close to it. The way it strike has applied tendon with the viboration of meridiums. Only the one has such art can tell the difference. Most of Sakuraba's strikes met that requirement. And I don't think the ground fighting arts have such skills. So that must came form some where else.

I see your case of BJJ example. If you are laying back down on the floor, you will need a ground fight skill. If you have proper ChinNa, it will help too. If you only aiming at the weak join spots, strike against the force direction of your opponent, that will dislinks the limp forces and counter his strikes, that will help too. A small finger lock will help too. Eye gouge will work only if he moved his head forward close enough, the bad thing to have an arm bar is when you reatch out too far and give your arm out. The most workable place to strike in the center is belly-button, with your 2 fingers.

I like to discuss like this, giving an actuall example and we can find out the answers rather than wast time on non-profitble words.

You can come up with actuall example and I will try to conter it the TCMA's way, and you can try on your own to see if that works. Like ChinNa (the correct subimissions) or take downs.

I also think that the submission holds are handy to apply while you are on the ground, but it can also be apply before you fall to ground and prevent you form fall to the ground.

[HuangKaiVun]

Too much "discuss".

Fantasizing about what will work and DOING IT are two different things.

[KnightSabre]

I appologise for saying them instead of him ;)

so LOL @ him for claiming Sakarabu does White Crane like movements.

:)

LiteBlu,

I commend you on cross training,I think your wing chun combined with BJJ will make you a heck of a complete fighter.
I did Wing Chun for 2 years myself.

[scotty1]

Wait, wait, all the people who are LOL at Paul for saying White Crane like movements - have you seen White Crane?
If you have, then carry on, but if you haven't, how do you know that Sak's moves are NOT White Crane like?

[KnightSabre]

Saks main standup weapon is at best a thai like round kick,
sometimes he will throw out a back kick for the heck of it,
He hardly punches and if he does it's a few wild hook like punches,his main weapon is his ground fighting ability and his quick thinking fight smarts,
He goes for submissions from every and any angle possible.

I did kung fu for 5 years and Sak doesn't do any movements that resemble any of the animals,

Ok I appologise for laughing,
Maybe he saw Sak using his mongolian chops on Royce and thought it was White Crane.

:)

[Merryprankster]

PaulLin--

"The Gracies" are not a thing--they are each individuals. Some of them are very family oriented. Some of them fight in competitions a lot. Some of them not so much. Some fight in sport BJJ, some in MMA, some both. Some do a lot of gi BJJ, some a lot of no-gi stuff. Some of them are very nice guys. Some of them are not.

The generalization that they are doing something wrong with their art that will cause them to have an unhealthy life is kind of odd--especially considering the number of fights Helio's generation had. It just doesn't pan out. What Helio's generation and what his current generation are doing is more or less identical. The only difference is that the newer generation is making a lot more money.

They've been a fighting family for awhile.

[LiteBlu]

TTT for Saku mongolian chops and white crane!

[LiteBlu]

And thanks for the compliment KnightSabre! Wing Chun and BJJ do "compliment" each other well.

[KnightSabre]

Liteblu,

I can see how you can go from Wing Chuns close in striking and trapping range into a single or double leg take down,
I think that the centre line punches can also be applied on the ground once you have the correct understanding of the positions.

How long have you been training in Wing Chun and BJJ?

I've been training Muay Thai,Boxing and BJJ for about 5 years.

[LiteBlu]

I did Tae Kwon Do (Olympic rules) about 6 years ago. Even though not it not a practical self defens method, it was still good because you learn to perform under extreme pressure and full contact from your opponent. The conditioning was good even if we did wear the torso pads and helmets. I got used to being hit with full contact. I did that for 2 years.

When I was in university I joined the traditional wing chun club registered at the campus. Doing almost two years of it now. The stuff we're doing is great but no full contact sparring. When sparring we do light contact punches and medium contact kicks. I competed at point scoring tournaments at university.

About eight months ago I learned that a Gracie affiliate registered a branch in the university. I joined straight away and enjoyed it. I expected that the club members would be a bunch of meat heads but to my pleasant surprise most of them came from a variety of MA backgrounds from judo to aikido to kung fu to karate to boxing. Some of them were huge, HUGE guys from wrestling. They were there to find something to complement their base art! There was even a couple of members from my very own wing chun club cross training there! Very opened minded to my surpise!

Now that I am working full time, I am finding less and less time to dedicate to both martial arts. My dilemma is now to choose which one to continue because of the obvious time constraints.

Peace, out.

[fa_jing]

I expect that a tradtional MA will win the UFC within 5 years. I mean someone who's primary art is a Japanese, Chinese, or Korean striking art, but who has, of course, cross-trained for the ground, ring, equipment, and rules.

-FJ

[LiteBlu]

Traditional MA'ists have already won and become champion at both UFC and Pride. Examples like Mo Smith, Bas Rutten, Chuck Liddell have all done some kind of karate in their training history. Every kind of martial art will have their time in both ring and cage. It doesn't depend on the style anymore. All stand up styles are as good as each other. All grappling styles are as good as each other. It's just personal preference as to which your going to use and combine and it'll be totally dependent on the individual and not the martial art.

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
PaulLin--

"The Gracies" are not a thing--they are each individuals. Some of them are very family oriented. Some of them fight in competitions a lot. Some of them not so much. Some fight in sport BJJ, some in MMA, some both. Some do a lot of gi BJJ, some a lot of no-gi stuff. Some of them are very nice guys. Some of them are not.

The generalization that they are doing something wrong with their art that will cause them to have an unhealthy life is kind of odd--especially considering the number of fights Helio's generation had. It just doesn't pan out. What Helio's generation and what his current generation are doing is more or less identical. The only difference is that the newer generation is making a lot more money.

They've been a fighting family for awhile.

I got that impression form what they said in the 4th Gracie vs Sakuraba fight. As you have pointed out, that will have to do with the individuals. But the kind of ideas about how MA is and means said in that event is wrong and will cause unhealty life.

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by HuangKaiVun
Too much "discuss".

Fantasizing about what will work and DOING IT are two different things.

Agree, that is why I propose to try them out, not just know them. That is the most sceintifical way it can be.

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by KnightSabre
I appologise for saying them instead of him ;)

so LOL @ him for claiming Sakarabu does White Crane like movements.

:)


I have described how Whitecrane would strikes aleady, and I have never heard of mongolian has that kind of strikes, I wondered if that can be traced.

The correct Whitecrane strikes is no entertainment, it will left side affects in qi. So the one got hit would start to weaken up and losing body ability, until sick or die, dependes on how it was done.

So if that Gracie shows any of these sign, then I know White crane kind of strikes has been applied, doesen't matter what name he called it.

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by KnightSabre
Saks main standup weapon is at best a thai like round kick,
sometimes he will throw out a back kick for the heck of it,
He hardly punches and if he does it's a few wild hook like punches,his main weapon is his ground fighting ability and his quick thinking fight smarts,
He goes for submissions from every and any angle possible.

I did kung fu for 5 years and Sak doesn't do any movements that resemble any of the animals,

Ok I appologise for laughing,
Maybe he saw Sak using his mongolian chops on Royce and thought it was White Crane.

:)

The Whitecrane style that I talk about has no single kick moves. And no solid puches. Loose hands only. It don't really look like crane all the time, but it is how the power and strikes excuted.

I still never heard of mongolian has develop any chops like that.

[Le nOObi]

Originally posted by KnightSabre
I appologise for saying them instead of him ;)



hee hee apology accepted
if i knew how to insert those smilies i would put one above oh well i guess thats why im Le nOObi

[Merryprankster]

Paul Lin--that was just because the Sakuraba vs Royce Gracie fight lasted a very long time.

Royce Gracie demanded special rules to ensure that the fight was not short.

Sakuraba was able to escape Royce's guard, stand up, and kick him. This happenned many times. Over the course of an hour and a half, Royce's legs became very battered, and his corner threw in the towel.

This is what happens when you have two very good people--fights can go on and on without a clear winner by knockout or submission. This is one reason why they instituted rounds and judges--fights that long are boring. :)

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
Paul Lin--that was just because the Sakuraba vs Royce Gracie fight lasted a very long time.

Royce Gracie demanded special rules to ensure that the fight was not short.

Sakuraba was able to escape Royce's guard, stand up, and kick him. This happenned many times. Over the course of an hour and a half, Royce's legs became very battered, and his corner threw in the towel.

This is what happens when you have two very good people--fights can go on and on without a clear winner by knockout or submission. This is one reason why they instituted rounds and judges--fights that long are boring. :)

Thank you for your info.

I would still view the stand ups agaist the ground fight as priority of training, and gound fight as back ups. It is not the I mean to say gound fights are not good, but I know that the syles I have been training for 22 years fits stand up and I don't see any benefits to go for the long way to change that. I haven't yet failed to stay on feet. Then again, I want to test my way much more with as many people as possible, when having time and chance, so besure to rule out the individual factors and focus on the technique factors.

Judges in there are very important, my father saw the tape I got, he said the judges resetting the fight location on the stage would discontinue the momentum of the fight and changed the upper hands when the fighters level are close, eventhough they are still in the same previous position when they were relocated. I think that many of us know that just when your attention, mind, reacts a couple of second different, you will have different result when fighting a person with about equal level. But what else can judes do with the rings? I don't think in the ring is a good idea for tournament. I think it would be better without rings, one fall off, one loss. Both fall off, restart again.