Why is it that Praying Mantis is so effective for fighting?

[roughnready]

i have heard from many many sources that mantis is the number one choice when it comes to fighting in the chinese arts, why is this so ? and what is it that mantis has that the other arts dont have?

[Le nOObi]

Uh nothing praying mantis is a great martial art but its only one martial art. I think anyone who told you it was the greatest martial art probably does Praying mantis themselves.

[Anon]

HAHA what a joke....

[Ye Gor]

is this for real? It sounds like flame bait.

[MightyB]

I agree with Yee Gor that this thread is flame bait, but...

According to PM lore, PM is the result of 17 older styles of kung fu merged with the PM techniques and philosophies that Wang Lang created about 400 years ago. You could say that it's one of the oldes MMAs. It is in a way a precursor of JKD, what I mean is that PM will adapt to and adopt any technique that works. PM is based on a fighting philosophy, so any technique can be used freely within that philosophy.

[yu shan]

Agree with MightyB, Mantis is a conglomeration of the" best of" the Best in CMA. A newer fighting art, so to speak. As for the best, to me , it`s the person.

MightyB, 7* is very powerful, it`s kind of the karate of Mantis...only effective! My teacher has shared with me 7* Mantis, but flavors it with Secret Door Mantis.

MB, do you guys ground fight? Have a good weekend.

[NorthernMantis]

I'm curious what is secret door like?

[18elders]

come to Tampa and see!!!!

[woliveri]

NM, It's a secret!!!! Har Har Har

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

[grifter721]

Secret door PM is a lot like Jade ring PM, they like a lot of circles like footwork, almost like 8 step maybe.

[NorthernMantis]

18 elders-

One of these days when I have a car and the income for it;)

[xie li wong]

This sounds like PJO's work!!!:rolleyes:

[Joe Mantis]

Mantis has the techniques.....many students are not trained correctly to use them though.

[yu shan]

My question Joe, was the teacher "taught" the techniques? Or was he or she told to "figure them out"? You can look at an exercise or form and "think" you got it, you have no idea. I believe you should be with a teacher that has the passed down knowledge from the ancients. But, isn`t this being spoon-fed?

[Art D]

YU SHN......You need both

[PaulLin]

I wouldn't say mantis is the #1 of all, but it is a highly balanced, highly linkable to all other arts, both internal and external fields, I have not known any other style as much as the same.

[yu shan]

PaulLin you surprise me. There are many great style`s of CMA. Southern and Northern. I must say Mantis KF is superior, hands down! If and only If you are lucky to learn traditional Mantis, all else leaves alot to be desired.

You are one of the lucky PaulLin, be proud... I know you are.

fortunate one,

YS

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by yu shan
PaulLin you surprise me. There are many great style`s of CMA. Southern and Northern. I must say Mantis KF is superior, hands down! If and only If you are lucky to learn traditional Mantis, all else leaves alot to be desired.

You are one of the lucky PaulLin, be proud... I know you are.

fortunate one,

YS

Only if I have won Lottory, then I can really have the time and energy to make the prograss I want. Not luky enough on that.

Mantis is one of the greatest for sure.

[seung ga faat]

The strong points of 7 Star are:
It's forms are easy to convert to combat
It teaches you that one attack is not enough
It always seeks to be several moves ahead.
These are some of the strong points these are taught through the forms.

[Ye Gor]

Originally posted by seung ga faat
The strong points of 7 Star are:
... It always seeks to be several moves ahead.
... taught through the forms.SGF, how can you learn to be several moves ahead through the forms?

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by seung ga faat
The strong points of 7 Star are:
It teaches you that one attack is not enough
It always seeks to be several moves ahead.


Highly agreed form my experiences with 8 steps too.

We don't do one strike deal, the combols comes form 3 to 5 moves a set. That is, after you opened the door, you will continue the combols of the choice that you made and see fit with or without a hit on the target when the first strike was excuted. So you don't stop at one strike.

And the design of the combol moves have covered the opponent's reacts several moves ahead, so you can just keep on going until the set was completed without worried of being countered, you can only be countered if you pulse.

[SevenStar]

I refuse to believe that there is no counter if you don't stop. even if it was possible, what level do you have to be at to do it? I have a friend who trained kempo for a while, and he had such a combo - it was called "the seven swords" or something. It was a self defense type drill that consisted of seven techniques that he was supposed to be able to pull off before I could counter. He could not do it successfully...ever.

That did not mean that I was of a higher skill level than him, however, to have such a long string of techs and think that it cannot be countered isn't too realistic, IMO

While I was typing this, I searched for 7 swords and found this:

http://www.kenpousa.com/3rdbrwn.htm

but this is a little different from the one he did. I think he was trying to modify it some.

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by SevenStar
I refuse to believe that there is no counter if you don't stop. even if it was possible, what level do you have to be at to do it? I have a friend who trained kempo for a while, and he had such a combo - it was called "the seven swords" or something. It was a self defense type drill that consisted of seven techniques that he was supposed to be able to pull off before I could counter. He could not do it successfully...ever.

That did not mean that I was of a higher skill level than him, however, to have such a long string of techs and think that it cannot be countered isn't too realistic, IMO

While I was typing this, I searched for 7 swords and found this:

http://www.kenpousa.com/3rdbrwn.htm

but this is a little different from the one he did. I think he was trying to modify it some.

The combos I known I have no problem to finish it to the end in my 12 years of applictional experiences. But as you have said, the opponent I have facing might not be higher level then me.

I have found 2 cases that can have my 8 step combols stuck or wore off, but never countered. These 2 cases are:1 the opponent's foundation are very solid(or having power too much greader than the applier) and slow down the combo almost into a pulse. 2. the opponent knows what the applier is going to do before it started.

Other wise, I have seen no problem the counter concern.

[Art D]

Sounds out there PL .
I have all the respect in the world for PM, I think that it has some of the best options out there, but the stuff your saying sounds so unrealistic . I have to wounder if it were that simple why aren't all PM guys at the top of the game?

[Mantis9]

Its not that PM can't be countered; more that PM forms, drills, and techniques usually combine easily in anticipation of a counter. This is usually due to the fact that the techniques form a bridge to feel the opponents motion.

[PaulLin]

The most important to make a successful combo is the first opening chance. If you don't have a good opening chance and force the combo to it any ways, then it will not be the case. I am not other styles of Mt people, I can 't represent them. I can only say form 8 step point of view. Well, you can't even find any real 8 step out there in the game any ways.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Mantis9
Its not that PM can't be countered; more that PM forms, drills, and techniques usually combine easily in anticipation of a counter. This is usually due to the fact that the techniques form a bridge to feel the opponents motion.

That makes sense. it intrigues me also. It sucks that the closest mantis school is 3 hours away. I wouldn't mind seeing what it was about.

[Art D]

Mantis 9
I agree w/ your point of adaptability. It's in the flow of techniques and how easly they adapt that the real genious of PM is found.
Its not that there are no counters but the counters are easly adpted too.

[SaMantis]

I agree -- adaptability is key.

As far as seeing several moves ahead, I see that as a technique similar to that used when playing chess. You visualize several moves ahead based on the placement of pieces on the board to reach your objective. When the pieces change position you revisualize and change your strategy.

Of course, chess occurs at a much slower speed than combat, so you have time to think your way through each move ... but even chess players train using set strategies (like "combos" in MA forms) to increase their odds. Each strategy can be countered by an experienced opponent; this is where adaptability comes in. It's the same in MA.

Just my penny, anyway. :)

[flem]

you guys seem to practice "theoretical kung fu". i think you need to ponder artd's question- why don't pm guys rule?
i think the whole thing about the any supposed superiortity of pm revolves around it's late development same can be said for wing chun and probably(don't know the history) of choy lee fut. it all boils down to effective cover of the center line and efficient attacks- one's that work. the "new" styles cut out alot of the crap. read tao of jeet kune do- whether you are a traditionalist or not- it's all there.

[BeiTangLang]

"theoretical kung fu"?? Everything is a theory untill its tested & used by a serious practitioner; Including your book.
The information therein is taught by traditional schools, its just that sometimes it is overlooked or under-practiced by the practitioners of the arts.
Fact is, they are all very awsome & which one is best is very hard to distuguish. This is a fact that I am quite proud of. The art that I chose was not of which one Was the "end-all-be all" system, Its the art that fits my personality, is traditional, and Works.
~BTL

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

I'm with you on that BeiTangLang! The best one is the one that's right for you.

[Art D]

The creative person is aways more important than the style.
we talk about pm like it is something out there on it's own, it is the expression of people. Frist wong long, then & then & then all people. the more creative the more devlopment the less creative = the herd, what makes it is the persons expression of it. Any new and interesting mantis out there? I hope so

[mantiskilla]

What other arts do you study besides mantis? Just wondering what your thoughts are on "learning", not just dabbling, in different arts. As some people believe in learning many different arts, and some believe in staying with one. I personally like to read about as many differnent arts as I can, but prefer to study only one. Dont think Im smart enough to start combining different styles into effective fighting techniques.:)

[Pong Lai]

I agree with my Sifu (ArtD) and his imput.

To be proficient in your style you must have it all.

Form (Sun Fa=Body movement)
Stamina/Power/Strength (Gong Li)
Skill/Tech (Ji Shu)

It is not just about skill alone, otherwise as it has been said, all PM practioners would be on top!

Also the skill aspect is often lacking being preacticed at a more agressive level. Every (99%) of two person drills/applications/sparring require your forearms to be invovled. As a beginner, if you are not exiting class with bruised forearms you interaction is lacking agressiveness. If you lack agressiveness that is when you pick up bad habits and true understanding of body movement/form, etc. These examples are just a portion of an explanation.

Outcome, if you posess on one or two of the above attributes and you fight someone whom has all three, you more than likely will be defeated. If you just have skill and lack conditioning/stamina, you will have a hard time applying all those good tech and counters. Not saying it would be impossible if drilled regularly, but much more difficult.

Enough said for the moment, I think most can grasp what little I have wrote.

Message for Sifu seunggafaat:
My business is taking me to the DC more and more. I traveled there recently but failed to locate many school names in the yellow pages. I will be in DC July 23-26 and would like to hook up with you. Could you let me know your schedule at that time and contact numbers? You may email me at john@americantowel.com
Thanks.

[Art D]

Mantiskilla
I foucs on Mantis & Chen Taiji & wrestling
I do beleive that mantis is very well rounded and complete in it's aprouch, when looking a different arts you will find that mantis has within it all the elements need to be well rounded.& has exceptionaly good traping and close range fighting (ecept gound fighting from the clintch, athough it may be out there I have not crossed it in my study) I do taiji for its smoothness and wrestling abilities, & bjj & western wrestling for ground elements.
As for the learning the part of your ? you need extented time w/ good teachers and I would sugest that you don't jump around too much if you have a good one. although no one has it all .To develope you need a mentor,. that guides you and dose not wish to own you.
We all are MA ist, only from different times & expereancesThe idea of shareing and openness need to be apparent in your learning.

[Dachengdao]

As a grandmaster of the Hao style Mei Hua Northern Mantis Taijee form, I should be happy to endorse your comments. However, in truth, there is no one form that is superior over all the forms in fighting. Regardless of the form studied, you need three ingrediants for fighting success: a good teacher, a dedicated student, and the internalization of the art form. I would be happy to elaborate further if anyone is interested, then EMail me.
Happy 4th of July to All!
Master Wang

[Art D]

Yea sounds right.
we have been talking alot about it being the person that makes the differenc in a fighter,but to the point of the thred. What do you think mantis as a style brings to the fight?

[flem]

what it brings to the fight...


i think the main thing is the allusive nature of the style as a whole- by that i mean the use of angles in defense and attack. i see this as the advancement(new styles) i spoke of earlier. it seems to me that with the exception of the forms, the tao of jeet kune do that i mentioned earlier works hand in hand with mantis- covering the center line, opening the opponent's, relying heavily on good footwork, creating openings with false attacks, right down to jkd's stance.

[Art D]

Flem

I think so too. the JKd approch is a new mix that mantis got 400 years ago . I like to keep the freshness of the jdd approach and use the more developed mantis technique. w/ the time and development mantis is much more intergrated and seemless.

[flem]

artd,

seamless is a good word, i tink mantis in itself does for the practioner in one style what lee did- it allows one to subtract what doesn't work for them- as it covers so much.
the only things i would improve on today are as you said good ground work and boxing's bob and weave- not just the skill, but using it as a science as a good boxer does. oh, and since we added full contact sparring, i realize now that it is absolutely necessary, of course most schools don't because of legality, but they'll just get it handed to them when they go against those that do- whether they are on the pm pedestal or not!

by the way, i don't have your email address

[yu shan]

In Mantis, there is ground work/take downs. As for so called "bob and weave" you just have not been taught, sorry for you...:)

[mantiskilla]

Never done Bjj, but out of the arts that you mentioned I believe, from what Ive observed, that western wrestling is the quickest way to learn how to move explosively. Bjj is probably the same way, but Ive never really seen too much. What do you think about how to train explosiveness? Do you think western wrestling/bjj adds explosivenee to your ather arts? Or viceversa? Thanks. :)

[Art D]

YS

Of cource pm has take downs . What I'm talking about is wrestling,clinched up on the ground.

Yes mantis has many ways of dealing w/ it so that dose not happen. yes this is not where you want to go in a fight ,wrestling leaves you open to a 2nd attack, thus many ways to avoid it .

when it dose happen I have not come across a pm training method for it .
the beutie is that once you have some basics of how to work on your back, how to pass a gard and mount then there's lots of use of your mantis from the groung.

[Art D]

mantiskilla

I find mantis to be the more explosive of the ones that i do. the foot work, fa jin trainning, the whole nature of PM is fast and explosive.
the ground work for me just brodens my options from very specific possions in a fight.
to work on your expolsiveness try practiceing one road of a set and blast it

[flem]

yushan,

don't feel sorry for me, i have made the necessary adjustments- but you should be concernerned for yourself if you beleive that flopping around on the ground in your so-called ground fighting form is all that is necessary... as for bob and weave are you saying you learned this... are you claiming it is also a part of the pm you practice? i don't think you understand the extent to which i mean to apply it, i could be wrong. i am not attacking pm , it's the best, as far as having the most of the best, i just think it should keep the hands in for attack and use more body movement to defend. have you practiced w/full contact? not almost full contact, but where someone is trying to take your head off? things change, believe me

[Pong Lai]

SHun Fa or Boby Flavor/movement is one of the first details that are pintpointed in mantis' basic training.
The same Shun Fa is then applied to your two person application drills and full contact fighting. How do you build the reaction, timing, and posture of Shun Fa? As you mentioned Flem, all you need to do is train with a more realistic approach. Correct, Full Contact is totally different then non agressively drilling applications or cat scratch sparring in class. From the basics, when conducting any two person drill do not stop your punch in front of the person. This will only develop bad habits. Repition is the root of Habit. If you are going for the face, use the ears for a target. This will allow you to extend your attack and make the other have to use his Shun Fa. Attacking the stomach or lower half, well just hit and be hit, that's where conditioning and herbs come in.

PM Shun Fa and Boxing Shun Fa are different as is there expression of Jing. Jing we have discussed before. Shun Fa can only be truly effective if the WHOLE body moves as one. Your arm block, stance, and body must evade together. Bobbing, Leaning Back, Leaning of any sort will leave you open for even a larger second attack. Hesitation is also part of incorrect Shun Fa that will leave you open.

As far as ground fighting, all the styles mentioned here are very effective. I don't think any one is better then the other. How can you train to avoid and/ or defend from being taken on the ground is much more difficult than understanding what to do when you get there.

PL

[Art D]

P L

As far as the Shun Fa goes i'm in full ageeance w/ you mantis has the evasive movment and dose it very well. Again your point of it comes down to how you train is right on.

[Dachengdao]

Pong Lai is very correct in explaining the shinfa aspects of Mantis. The fast, twisting body movements as well as the ability to rapidly change the yin-yang configurations of the body make the Mantis form a formidable force. Northern style has better coordination of hand movements in relation to the other parts of the body. Mei Hua (plum blossom) in particular has many follow up movements to the initial punchwhich leaves the oponent off-balance and unable to anticipate the next strike. I still must stress the importance of internalizing the form (any form that you may practice)in order to develop the explossive energy of fali. Without internal development, external forms of Mantis cannot fare as well against the internal forms Xingyi, Bagua, etc. In order the progress in your internal growth, it is imperative that your teacher has sufficient fali in order to monitor your development. Many of my kung fu brothers are still operating from an exclusive external context without realizing how far they can take the form by internalization.

[Art D]

P L

As far as the Shun Fa goes i'm in full ageeance w/ you mantis has the evasive movment and dose it very well. Again your point of it comes down to how you train is right on.

as far as avoiding being taken to the ground this is a more ivolved indever, and one that should be trained .

My point was when you end up there what is PM's approuch ? you have seen more than I have and perhaps your Shr fu has ways of working w/ this unknown to me, and I would love to hear more on this as I have all the repect in the world for your opinion. To make my ? clear beyond avoidance , after you are there, on the ground wraped up and wrestling.what is PM's option

[Art D]

Dachengdao

I fully agree. Internal trainning is the path to high level CMA. your point of veiw is fresh and should be concidered carfully by those that wish to reach high level skill.

[Ye Gor]

Pong Lai wrote: "... Shun Fa can only be truly effective if the WHOLE body moves as one. Your arm block, stance, and body must evade together. Bobbing, Leaning Back, Leaning of any sort will leave you open for even a larger second attack. Hesitation is also part of incorrect Shun Fa that will leave you open. ..."

Ok, that sounds great but there is one thing I could never even get a glimpse of: that the WHOLE body moves as fast as the attacking hand (or foot or whatever). When punches come fast, you barely have enough time to react with an arm. To change your full stance, especially in response to several attacks in rapid succession seems beyond human.

I can kinda see how body movement can be used RAPIDLY to punch rapidly, but in defense... Iiii don't belieeeeeeeve youuuuu. :)

[Art D]

ye,
I think that this whole body thing is like animals move.As your hand reacts to the attack your whole body is responding as well. It may not mean a change of stance but then again with good ting jin you may already be in motion.

[Art D]

ye,
I think that this whole body thing is like animals move.As your hand reacts to the attack your whole body is responding as well. It may not mean a change of stance but then again with good ting jin you may already be in motion.

[yu shan]

flem,

I do not feel sorry for you, I was hoping to make a friend. As for flopping around on the ground being a "so-called" ground fighting form, who said I was flopping? Lighten up bro, you sound pretty wound up to me. Full contact? YOU practice with Pong Lai...don`t give me your meaningless b*llsh*t...why not come for a visit, if you question? We won`t hurt you.

[flem]

yushan,

what do you mean? i am not wound up, i am only suggesting that as with any art, pm is lacking (in my eyes) those two things. i understand pm to have g-fighting skills, but they are not ellaborate enough- again, in my eyes. why is your response always come down and see. why don't you exchange ideas here like everyone else. you know, explore the art.

[Tainan Mantis]

PM has a basic skeletal framework that the practitioner can use as hooks (figuratively) to hang other techniques.

This skeletal framework is 1 or 2 short partner exercises going down the line.

Different schools use different names...
Pai An
Po An
Yen Ching Po Fa
Lian Er Zhang
little/big open gate

This method dates back to at least Liang Hsuehsiang, the common denominator of all PM styles except 6 Harmony.

Some advantages of this method...
After mastering this short partner drill both people can use full speed and power while trying to hit the correct target.

As long as the proper defense is used no one will be maimed.

New techniques can be added to the original drill which makes for a unique method of organizing the information in the mind...

...proper mental organization is essential so that the student's mind can react without deliberate thought.

This method is not unique to PM. It exists in other styles or at least a variant of it.

This type of methodology most likely descends from weapons.
For example:
In saber vs saber the student learns a lot about timing, distance, etc while doing repetitive drills.
If one student chops off his partners hand by mistake because he wanted to be creative he may face a severe reprimand from his teacher.
Also,+ the teacher may get a bad reputation if all his students are digitally challenged.

So this method of drilling helps preserve your own students while teaching you the first step in how to defeat the opponent.

[seung ga faat]

Yee Gor,
Forms contain the vocabulary.The Sifu has definitions and the student must have a empty cup.
But, when it comes to the style and the forms even the Sifu must be a student.

[Pong Lai]

Ye Gor stated that it is immpossible to move your hand body and stance as one out of an away of an attack. This will be true if you do not train as such. Like all else. Because you can't do a back hand spring doesn't mean it is humanly immpossible. Have you trained to do so...back bend, walk over, hand spring??

Actually most MA practioners have practiced at least the most basic "one Body" movement blocks. For example, one guy punching straight in at your face and the other guy steps out to parry, turning his waist, and finishing in a void stance. Maybe a better examble is the second move in Beng Bo two man when you step out at an angle and punch underneath his strike. These are just two basic examples and not meant to be a system of training Shun Fa.

Every block is an attack within itself. If you move the body (hands, body, stance) you avoid the continuation of the agressive attack, create a pause, and open opportunity for your counter.
If you are being attacked aggressively (punches or kicks) and you only lean or move backwards, you allow the attacker to easily biuld momentum which makes your escape that much more difficult. Easy way out is stepping (jumping) to the side and "Bi Show."

Much easier taught than explained, Tainan Mantis is better with words.

[Dachengdao]

As I was formulating a response to Ye Gor's doubts, I scanned down and viewed Pong Lai's clarification of Shin fa. Once again he is right on target with his comments. The only thing I would like to add is that perhaps Ye Gor has seen more of the Southern MAntis which indeed does use more hand movements which are often seperate from the whole body continuum. Northern Mantis stresses whole body integration. I'm glad Ye Gor wrote what he did because he gave me a great idea about making a video for my website to demonstrate this very same thing. I'll let you guys Know when I have my site updated so you can see what I'm talking about and give me comments.

[Ye Gor]

Pong Lai, Dachengdao...

I don't think you understand what I'm saying. I am saying this: "it takes too long to adjust the whole body to deflect/avoid a barrage of quick punches. maybe you can avoid the first one, but not the others. Since you don't know from where the 1st, 2nd, 3rd attack is coming from beforehand (as you do in a drill that I've been hearing so much about), you have to actually observe and react, while the other guy is just firing off a combination as fast as he can."

Let me put it another way (btw, I do understand the concept of whole-body-movement): an arm moves faster than the whole body. If you do whole-body-movement, than the time it takes to change stance / twist body becomes the bottleneck in terms of speed.

Do you actually claim to have that ability, Pong Lai, or are you just defending the theory of mantis fighting?

-------------------------------------------

Yu Shan, why so ****y? Is that a sign of great skill?

[Dachengdao]

Hi Ye Gor,
The hands and arms may be faster, but they are also the weakest. That's why you need the strength and reinforcement of the whole body behind it. With proper training, it is easy to move the body rapidly. Mantis is all about twists and sudden reversals. Too bad you're not in NY or NJ, because I would invite you to come to one of my classes so I can show you first hand why hands alone is ineffectual. But if you're ever planning a trip out here please feel free to look me up. My addresses are on my website, which you can access from my member profile. It's good that you don't believe everything you read - you seem to be the type of person that must see things first hand. Me too! Thanks to you, I decided to add video to my website just as soon as my webmaster returns from abroad. I'll let you know when it's updated.

[Art D]

ye
basic tai ji ,I know you know this I have traind with you, when one part moves all parts move. this is not to say that your hands are not faster than moving your whole body, but that there is a concetion of the arm/hand to the whole body so you respond in a conected way . path of root , dan tian rotation creating harmony between upper and lower, all these are expressing the same idea , I THINK

[Le nOObi]

Originally posted by Ye Gor


Let me put it another way (btw, I do understand the concept of whole-body-movement): an arm moves faster than the whole body. If you do whole-body-movement, than the time it takes to change stance / twist body becomes the bottleneck in terms of speed.

I know its not really the same thing but i guess its sort of like when a boxer ducks punches

[Pong Lai]

If you treat and train EVERY block as an attack within itself, you will have the advantage on the opponents second, third....attack/strike! For example, something I am training with students right now...How to counter a boxing jab and round house punch or similar one-two 9can alos be 123) combo. If you only flinch with the hand up and nothing else moves, yes you are wide open for the rest of the attack.

Part of CMA is utilizing blocks to set up your attack/counter, not to just "defend".

Unfortunately, I leave the "theory" to Kevin and the other smarter historians. YG, I do claim and am confident I can follow through with anything I post!

Le noobi: Yes the theory is like your example, except with the duck your stance (legs) move little or if any which sets you up for Yegors 2nd and 3rd attack.

Work and analyze Outside Guo Luo Tsai, it can enlighten even the most skilled.

Sifu D: I haven forgotten your question on ground fightening, I will answer that. Want to make sure my wording answers most questions. Thanks for the patience. Wow, The tape you brought by brought back many memories. not like they were ever forgotten.

[Art D]

PL

Yes never forgoten the Great times, lets have more

[flem]

ponglai,

does what you are explaining here work better/best at long or medium range? i can understand it from there but have trouble seeing it as being equally effective close in- possible, just not likely.

[Art D]

I think his point is to be ofensive , attack of the frist strike use position to keep you from being blasted w/ run on techniques. Mantis is not a defensive mingded style. that's why like ye gor said it is so dificult to stop a blast.

[Art D]

Flem
I think it is easly done at long range , must be done at medium, or you will get blasted, close range is all about sensitivity, rotation & trapping . I think it all can be aplplied from the clintch as well. Shun fa is always present.

[Ye Gor]

Originally posted by Dachengdao
But if you're ever planning a trip out here please feel free to look me up. My addresses are on my website, which you can access from my member profile.

... I decided to add video to my website just as soon as my webmaster returns from abroad. I'll let you know when it's updated.OK, I'll take you up on that offer. If I'm ever out that way.

Great! I like videos. They're so much better than still pix.

[seven_stars]

atulaly what why i think this is so effective partly is because its a shaolin style:)

[flem]

artd,

if its not too hard to explain, how does it work against upward motions-like uppercuts, knee,etc. also is it used equally well with hooks/ straight punches? oh, and with hooks, does the movement follow the initiation of the swing or it's return - i'm thinking of an opponent moving with my hook- without contact- moving inside, but my continued motion allows it to land on the return- as in WL's di heen choy, attacking the back of neck if they drop in and down.

[Art D]

Flem

one of the strengths of mantis IMO is contact and its ability to stick and work of of the movement of your partner. so whether its 123 off a stright punch or the use ofa tag to the in side (bicept comes to mind) of the hook opening the door for your blast so to speak ,it works on building attacks in to you defense.
Now on the upward movments knees can be defeeted w/ knees of your own & outside position and the upercut is controled by contact & rotation, body conditioning goes a long way have to be able to take a shot.

[Art D]

Flem

one of the strengths of mantis IMO is contact and its ability to stick and work of of the movement of your partner. so whether its 123 off a stright punch or the use ofa tag to the in side (bicept comes to mind) of the hook opening the door for your blast so to speak ,it works on building attacks in to you defense.
Now on the upward movments knees can be defeeted w/ knees of your own & outside position and the upercut is controled by contact & rotation, body conditioning goes a long way have to be able to take a shot.

[Art D]

Flem

one of the strengths of mantis IMO is contact and its ability to stick and work of of the movement of your partner. so whether its 123 off a stright punch or the use ofa tag to the in side (bicept comes to mind) of the hook opening the door for your blast so to speak ,it works on building attacks in to you defense.
Now on the upward movments knees can be defeeted w/ knees of your own & outside position and the upercut is controled by contact & rotation, body conditioning goes a long way have to be able to take a shot.

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by seven_stars
atulaly what why i think this is so effective partly is because its a shaolin style:)

Psss......Not all mantis belongs to ShaioLin style.

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by Dachengdao
Hi Ye Gor,
The hands and arms may be faster, but they are also the weakest. That's why you need the strength and reinforcement of the whole body behind it. With proper training, it is easy to move the body rapidly. Mantis is all about twists and sudden reversals. Too bad you're not in NY or NJ, because I would invite you to come to one of my classes so I can show you first hand why hands alone is ineffectual. But if you're ever planning a trip out here please feel free to look me up. My addresses are on my website, which you can access from my member profile. It's good that you don't believe everything you read - you seem to be the type of person that must see things first hand. Me too! Thanks to you, I decided to add video to my website just as soon as my webmaster returns from abroad. I'll let you know when it's updated.

Our 8 step mantis system used local moves for attachments, not for strikes. Stikes are whole body moves. For example, the 12 softs: Go Lo Tsi Gua are hand attachments, all other 8 are whole body moves. There are many ways to deal with the limp strikes by applying whole body. It is not when you arrived faster that you will get what you want first. Only attacking vital points like eyes, would speed matters that much.

[Ye Gor]

Originally posted by PaulLin
Our 8 step mantis system used local moves for attachments, not for strikes. Stikes are whole body moves. For example, the 12 softs: Go Lo Tsi Gua are hand attachments, all other 8 are whole body moves. There are many ways to deal with the limp strikes by applying whole body. It is not when you arrived faster that you will get what you want first. Only attacking vital points like eyes, would speed matters that much.Paul Lin, I don't understand this, can you explain? Thanks very much.

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by Ye Gor
Paul Lin, I don't understand this, can you explain? Thanks very much.

That is we used local limp movements to determine how to attach to opponent.

Go--means hook hands/fists. Lo--out side in circle deflection. Tsi--in side out deflection and grib. Gua--arm roll outward deflection.

That are the first 4, for hand attachments. The other 8 of the 12 softs are:

Shan--angle evading. Zhuan--turning repositioning. Tung--leap repositioning. Nou--moving with opponenet in ratio, both moved. Zhan--attaching. Nian--sticky and soft. Tiea--keep stick on, not lost contect. Kao--have you body attach to opponent, let your opponent carry you weight.

These 8 needs to be done with whole body.

Other than the 12 softs, we also have 8 hards. They all need to be done whole body.

When whole body force meets the local force, the local force will injur. So even though you can have the local limp strikes arrived faster, but the whole body force can just take on position and wait there for your arrival(Ye Yi Dai Lao). That is why faster not always get the job done.

Whole body force can be fast too, it just needs longer training time to achieve.

That is what I know.

[Ye Gor]

Paul Lin wrote: "When whole body force meets the local force, the local force will injur. So even though you can have the local limp strikes arrived faster, but the whole body force can just take on position and wait there for your arrival(Ye Yi Dai Lao). That is why faster not always get the job done. "

See, Paul Lin, that's exactly what doesn't make sense to me.

If the 'local limp strikes' arrive faster, how can 'whole body force just take on position and wait there for your arrival'??? If the strike arrives FASTER, how can the body be ALREADY WAITING for it? Are you reading my mind to know exactly what I'm targeting, or what?

ps: I've always been under the impression that fast+precise will always rule over power/strength. No matter how 'limp' or 'local' a strike is, when it smacks you in the nose/eye/throat/temple/neck/groin, it'll feel pretty powerful to you (the recepient).

pps: I can see whole-body-defense used for the more powerful (and slower) strikes, especially the big one-timers (one punch, one kill). But to claim that whole-body-defense is a cure-all, I just can't see it. I guess I really have to see it. Sorry Pong Lai, a trip to Tampa is nowhere on my agenda in the near future. Why not come to Boulder? :)

[flem]

yegor,

you are not alone. i too can see that in some instances it would be effective, even indespenseable, but i also realize it's shortcomings. i believe it to be an ideal state or accomplishment, but because of it's advanced nature it seems natural that it is easily overcome by simplicity. this is really what i was getting at with the statement "theoretical kung fu", and i think it is this so called advanced method(s) that really allows alot of other styles to over shadow cma in competition. in fact, isn't it a reality that because kf is so advanced that karate and other stylists (don't understand it"- resulting in poor scores. now i'm all for cma, it is all that i believe in as a whole- concerning ma, but such techniques in my mind are best pursued, used as a goal, and useful, mostt useful against one with a similar level of ability.

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by Ye Gor
Paul Lin wrote: "When whole body force meets the local force, the local force will injur. So even though you can have the local limp strikes arrived faster, but the whole body force can just take on position and wait there for your arrival(Ye Yi Dai Lao). That is why faster not always get the job done. "

See, Paul Lin, that's exactly what doesn't make sense to me.

If the 'local limp strikes' arrive faster, how can 'whole body force just take on position and wait there for your arrival'??? If the strike arrives FASTER, how can the body be ALREADY WAITING for it? Are you reading my mind to know exactly what I'm targeting, or what?

ps: I've always been under the impression that fast+precise will always rule over power/strength. No matter how 'limp' or 'local' a strike is, when it smacks you in the nose/eye/throat/temple/neck/groin, it'll feel pretty powerful to you (the recepient).

pps: I can see whole-body-defense used for the more powerful (and slower) strikes, especially the big one-timers (one punch, one kill). But to claim that whole-body-defense is a cure-all, I just can't see it. I guess I really have to see it. Sorry Pong Lai, a trip to Tampa is nowhere on my agenda in the near future. Why not come to Boulder? :)

The "Ye Yi Dai Lao" method will take longer time to explain. Will do that later when have time. It can also combine with "Lian Xiao Dai Da", in which attack while deflects attack at the same time. Also the method of "Huo Fa Chih Ren" That are what we used to deal with limp attack with whole body. I hope some one who understand what I am talking about will share some experience and knowledge.

Ps. there are only so many weak parts you can reach with fast limp attack, it is not difficult to deal with. You just have to stick to a few rules to make them work. Does not matter where you are going to attack on the body.

[Frogman]

I am by far less qualified on this subject then most here, but do feel that the fastest attack can be avoided or at least have it’s impact reduced simply by changing the angle of the body. At that point the two combatants are in close range and it’s anyone’s game. Readjust the body place on body check. Game point speed is not restricted to the appendages. Personal view may not even be connected the the subject mater.

RibHit
fm
;)

[Art D]

Fm
your point is right on ,dosen't take years to find that out.just being in the mix.

[Pong Lai]

YG: We might have better luck meeting in China?

Back in town and back on line.....

Couldn't fully grasp what Frogman stated, but it sounded right on.

I guess the question to you would be, how do you block a jab and then a round house (or over the top straight punch)punch (can also be followed with another roundhouse if not countered)?
How about another quick boxing combo..Jab, upper, and over the top or roundhouse? Maybe a continuous straight punch charge (like you use to like to throw)?

Lift up your hands? Lean back? Move back?

As you, I am not talking Tai Chi speed strikes.

Not a trick question, interested in learning your tactics!

JOHN

[Tainan Mantis]

Pong Lai,
Mantis108 has a small exercise that deals with something like this.
Although no jabs, but the punches to the solar plexus are similar when done at top speed/power.
They are coupled with two hook punches.
The defender just blocks the 5 punches and then rushes forward with his 5 punch.

It is so easy that even a beginner has a chance to feel what it is like to play with top speed and power while really trying to hit the opponent.

Even though the drill is set in the beginning with no changes allowed, but you still get hit.

That is something that always amazed me... even though I know the drill I still managed to get hit.

[Pong Lai]

With Mantis 108's exercise, is the defender blocking with his forearms, closing off the punches? How is the transition when the defender turns into the attacker? Kinda like the Lu Lu / Fan Cha two man drill? Shrfu seems to have taught one about 6 years ago, similar to the Mantis 108 description of yours.

Though an attacking multiple straight punch is unpleasant to defend, I do not feel it is as difficult to react to as a high/low, etc. combo.

How do most fighters react to a jab? This can be said to be the "fastest" punch out there. A good jab, you don't have time to catch it out of mid air with a mantis hook, not quick enough to parry (stick) close his forearm as he jabs, what do most of the mantis fighters do to defend/attack? Eliminating kicks.

[Mantis9]

Here's how we do it:

With any combination, whether mantis, w. boxing, or anything else, I normally drill several combos (3 to 5) over an hour's time. This drilling starts with partners standing in one spot, one delivering the combo and one monitoring it. The delivery side and the monitoring side normally follow along the lines of and established form (ie Chau Choy, Bung Bo, etc.). The pace picks up rapidly b/c both sides are static and repititious which is the point.

The next phase is the inter-disperse the said combos. This slows the drill down quiet a bit, being that the monitoring side know all the delivery methods, but not in which order. The help the proactive side measure distance, delivery, and rythym issues and the reactive distance and visual ques.

The third is like the first, only movement is allowed, so only the proactive side know when the attack begins. This helps with footwork, delivery, rythym, and technical application. Things tend to get sloppy at this point, so moving from slow with good technique to progressively faster.

And forth, is a combination of phase two and three.

I could go on, but I think you get the point. It starts out with a static technique or idea demonstrated usually found in a PM form, then moves on to a progressively fluid situation until it becomes sparring or fighting.

Sometime, though, that jab or kick gets you anyway.

Mantis9

[Pong Lai]

mantis 9:

Nice to hear of your training method. Definitely can pinpoint the "Pi" and detect "Tsai" in the drills. Basically you are aware that learning the tech and then moving right into 'free" sparring is not going to allow you to be a better CMA or fighter in any style.

It is inevitable that you may get hit at some point or another.

keep up the intense drilling!

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by Pong Lai
With Mantis 108's exercise, is the defender blocking with his forearms, closing off the punches? How is the transition when the defender turns into the attacker? Kinda like the Lu Lu / Fan Cha two man drill? Shrfu seems to have taught one about 6 years ago, similar to the Mantis 108 description of yours.

Though an attacking multiple straight punch is unpleasant to defend, I do not feel it is as difficult to react to as a high/low, etc. combo.

How do most fighters react to a jab? This can be said to be the "fastest" punch out there. A good jab, you don't have time to catch it out of mid air with a mantis hook, not quick enough to parry (stick) close his forearm as he jabs, what do most of the mantis fighters do to defend/attack? Eliminating kicks.

I would do a Bung and then step up with Pi. Then follow up with TaioTunChuai, left and right.

[Art D]

PONG LI

How do most fighters react to a jab? This can be said to be the "fastest" punch out there. A good jab, you don't have time to catch it out of mid air with a mantis hook, not quick enough to parry (stick) close his forearm as he jabs, what do most of the mantis fighters do to defend/attack? Eliminating kicks.

How do you get to san fran? Good ? Depends on where you start from. my point is position is evrything . Shan fa or body movement is not only reactive . we all have been taking a very reactive point of view on this . on the proactive side, positioning your self , useing good lines along with ting jin will always lessen an attackers options.
from my point of view let him or her I won't be sexist worry about dealing w/ the attacks, mine.
Iwas talking to a friend today and he said something very intresting I'd like to share " If it's going to go down , then lets get over w/. He is a golf pro , sounds like mantis golf to me.

[Ye Gor]

Originally posted by Pong Lai
YG: We might have better luck meeting in China?
Yes, I think you're right about that. Works for me. You in Shang Hai often?

[Frogman]

On the subject of action reaction I was doing some electrical work for a friend recently, which was a big favor since I had to spend four hours under a house crawling around and working on my back. This can be good training, for the first hour. Anyway, I was nailing a junction box right above my face and dropped it. There was not much that I could do at this point since the box was beyond my hands so no chance to block. I did not have much time with the box accelerating toward my face at 9.8 m/s sq. from a distance of less then 18”. Of course I did not think about it I just moved my head and avoided a box in the eye. If there were more then one box coming at me I most likely would have eaten one, laying on my back in a crawl space I did not have much maneuverability, even as a frog. I would like to add that I feel good KF sense can be used for more then just defending an attack from another person it is also good for defending against a box in the eye, or a door in the face, a heavy weight on the foot, and drop but catch so not to have to bend. All these things are more likely to happen to me daily, but that is another subject altogether.:)

RibHit
fm
PS. Sorry I have no recent fighting experiences to talk about other then some light sparring, atleast none I'm willing to talk about. ;)

[yu shan]

Wow, close call FM! Alot to be said about reaction time.

[Frogman]

Yes, Yu Shan it was close.

It is good to be on one’s toes, even when one’s on their back.
:D

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by Art D
PONG LI

How do most fighters react to a jab? This can be said to be the "fastest" punch out there. A good jab, you don't have time to catch it out of mid air with a mantis hook, not quick enough to parry (stick) close his forearm as he jabs, what do most of the mantis fighters do to defend/attack? Eliminating kicks.

How do you get to san fran? Good ? Depends on where you start from. my point is position is evrything . Shan fa or body movement is not only reactive . we all have been taking a very reactive point of view on this . on the proactive side, positioning your self , useing good lines along with ting jin will always lessen an attackers options.
from my point of view let him or her I won't be sexist worry about dealing w/ the attacks, mine.
Iwas talking to a friend today and he said something very intresting I'd like to share " If it's going to go down , then lets get over w/. He is a golf pro , sounds like mantis golf to me.

For the fastest punch--jab, you can use bung + pi and followed either by tiao-tung-chuan when not too close, if too close, use the big-waterwheel-throw. Another one is the chuan-chuai follow by bung-chuai or throw. The main reason for that is I don't have to wait till my opponenet to start jab, these 2 combos are design to walk in and finish off with or without your opponent's attack. As long as your opponent are in your reatch, you can start it before your opponent reatch out for a jab.

[flem]

paullin,

so why practice anything else?

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by flem
paullin,

so why practice anything else?

To conter it (these hard techniques that I metioned above) is possible with soft/sticky techniques to begin with, and that is availible in many styles, not just in 8 step mantis. And each style would have different advantages in the aspect of different body types, personality.

[TaiChiStorm]

Frogman ,
I guess your quick reaction doesn't have much to do with your Martial Art training!!! I've learned that human has ,so called "protection-reactions". For example when you move something to your eyes quickly ,your eye will close by sure. The difference to normal reactions is the neurotic control: In the regular case, the stimulus which you receive will go through your vertebral column to your brain first and then back to the reactor (muscle). When you do a protection-reaction ,the stimulus will go to the vertebral column and then straight back to the muscle. So you don't need your brain for this reaction.
I am not sure about that you are able to make this reaction faster. I think ,what you learn in Martial Arts is to CONTROL these reactions. I mean when you punch a NON- M - artist right into his face he will also try to protect his head with his arms. But a M-artist will do what he did a hundred times in training. And in this case it won't be such a "protection-reaction" ,because he controls his movement!!!

[flem]

paullin,

but if this tech- which i do not know by the way- overwhelms the fastest punch available, it would seem to be the ultimate tech. especially if it can be applied w/out the opponent even striking.
i don't think there is such a grand technique, that is just what i am understanding you to say

[Frogman]

TaiChiStorm,
I agree that it is natural to cover up, flinch or even freeze when something is coming right at your face. It was not my first time under a house and I have trained in ground fighting. I believe my movement was as much controlled as it was natural. The average person may have had the same reaction but as you put it the thought pattern would not have been the same. Not to say I’m some sort of super KF guy, truth is I have been hit in the face under a house before. I definitely believe that my MA training and prior experience severed me that day. Any kind of training should improve reaction time through alertness. If nothing else that is what I believe and if helps me avoid getting hit in any way, well…..

To add I enjoy the Mantis Hooks I like pulling strikes out of the way then stepping in, RibHit.


fm