Attn: Gene or other sword people--hand before foot?

[Ky-Fi]

As I’ve been fencing since the beginning of the year, there’s one issue that I’ve found interesting. For the stabbing lunge in fencing, my teacher stresses the sword arm and hand extends BEFORE the feet and legs propel the lunge. Hand before foot—always. It seems the great fencing masters (Aldo Nadi, etc.) pretty much agree on this.

In my Taiji training, I’ve only formally trained the saber, and most of what we focused on there were chops, slashes and sliding cuts supported by the left hand---I don’t think we really did much point-stabbing/lunging training. Although I try to not bring one art into the other (at least for now), my first inclination when lunging in fencing was to kind of use my taiji mechanics---keep the upper body relatively relaxed, and let the jin kind of whip through the upper body—namely, feet and legs going before the hand. My fencing instructor has corrected me on this a few times---stressing that “hand before foot” is crucial for point control and accuracy. A couple times he stopped me during a bout when my lunge was off-target and he said “you missed because you were already lunging before you extended your sword arm, so your accuracy was off”. From my experience, I think he’s right.

I’d be interested to hear anybody’s opinion on this, especially if you’ve trained a lot of stabbing/lunging with CMA.

[fa_jing]

I don't practice the sword, but I think you would move the hand first, so that you don't telegraph. I think that's what I'm discovering with the empty hand strikes, the hand initiates the movement, then the body catches up so that the mechanics that create the power are already in place by the time the punch lands. I see this from our speed drills.


-FJ

[The Willow Sword]

i was a fencer in highschool and competed on the state level. during this time i was also practiceing kendo. hand before foot in western fencing is correct to the style. but remember that western sport fencing is very linear and not geared for the true sword combat, as is with taiji sword or fencing with epee". to try and meld together your taji with the fencing is unorthodox and as you already have seen been noticed and corrected. body mechanics are good to have and taji can transition well over to anything. but as for technique in swordsmanship, on the competition level it will not. fencing is a good start for learning the moves for engagement. try fencing with the epee" and the style and manner of which you use your taiji skills will come into play as in epee' everywhere is target and it is more realistic.

Many Respects,,,The Willow Sword

[Ky-Fi]

Willow Sword,

Yes, I haven’t tried epee yet---I’ve mostly trained foil and just started a little saber. Man, that stop-cut to the opponents sword hand with the saber is a GREAT technique!—but I digress…:)

Again, I’ve only been fencing for a little while, so take everything I say with a grain of salt. I definitely agree with you that because it’s a sport, there are aspects of fencing (especially foil and saber) that are unrealistic in a martial sense. But I’m not sure I agree that the lunge mechanics are one of those unrealistic aspects. As I understand, the rapier became popular because it was VERY effective in a martial sense, and that evolved into a very linear style of swordfighting, where the lunge became supremely important. From my experience, it seems that my fencing teacher isn’t stressing “hand before foot” just to fit in with the conventions of the sport---he’s stressing that because it’s the quickest, best, most accurate way to hit the target. Although I agree that Taiji sword has more circular strategies---a straight lunge is still a straight lunge---I’m not sure the ideal mechanics would be different. (and just to clarify---I’m not saying they are different—I haven’t been taught the lunging mechanics in Taiji).

But yes, I am looking forward to epee, as I've heard from a lot of people that it's the most realistic.

[The Willow Sword]

there inlies the "sport" the quickest way to score a point. same thing with karate tourneys that i have seen where i wasnt about the technique of the fight but the quickest way to score the point.
in fencing tourneys you will see this,,its a little poke and the buzzer goes off. the lunge is for closeing the distance, the hand extends and the body chases the hand. its effective,,for the point scoring, nothing more. put a real sword in your teachers hand and you will see a very different approach to lunging and thrusting the blade.

Many Respects,,,the Willow Sword

[GeneChing]

In fencing, it's hand before foot, but this is based on combat principles with live sword. It just makes more sense to risk the weapon before you risk your body. Unlike a lot of Kungfu, which is predominently folk-based knowledge, fencing being western is very scientific. In fencing, moving the weapon first is far more logical.
But when comparing fencing with kungfu, you must keep in mind that modern fencing arose from dueling, not street combat, and that sort of duelling had codified rules. One big difference was that you were' allowed to kick someone in the head in fencing. Another was you would only duel against one opponent. This changes your strategy considerably. Also the bulk of fencing is based on having a very sharp blade. With that kind of sharp, you don't need much power, believe me, so power is not a factor like in kungfu. The 'buzzer' in electric fencing is standardized everywhere and the measure of the spring is based on the amount of pressure it would take to penetrate human skin. Most people will comment that epee is the most real since it has no right of way and the whole body is target, but epee is based more on first blood duels, so the game is mostly wrist picks. Foil is the key to fencing and the other two weapons derive from it. Only the torso is legal target, so akin to kendo, it's only the killing blows that are counted. With a quick, light sharp like a foil, it's quite easy to pierce vitla organs. Here the head was not target since when fencing originated, the masks were not sufficient protection and a lot of people were dying in practice. Smae goes for the foundation of right of way.

[Braden]

What Gene said.

TWS - Don't discount foil so easily. It focuses heavily on the most technical requirements of fencing, and therefore allows you to develop them quicker and to the highest level. The foil lunge can't be dismissed as 'a sport technique' / 'the quickest way to score a point.' Even in my jr. high summer course at a rec school fencing class (where I started) the teacher made sure we had enough extension in our techniques that they would be viable with a real sword (we never had the electronic gear) - and I've seen this emphasis throughout the fencing world. A 'small *****' to the liver or kidneys in this manner would have been a death sentance.

As for the original concern, it may be interesting to point out that in [what I've seen so far of our kind of]* bagua, we often stress hand-before-foot; at least overtly.

* standard disclaimer.

[GeneChing]

... we used to frequently sharpen broken foil blades and punch them through all sorts of stuff - layered cardboard, canvas, leather, etc. We had a little blade throwing area and could make them stick into wood at 20 ft. It takes surprisingly little effort. Now back that with a big lunge and you could easily perforate a body.
My general feeling about hand or foot first is that if you are planning to generate a lot of power, you would be inclined to move from the root, your foot. But in swordwork, you don't need some much power for a light sharp weapon. It's different with a heavy weapon, of course.

[Ky-Fi]

Originally posted by GeneChing
... My general feeling about hand or foot first is that if you are planning to generate a lot of power, you would be inclined to move from the root, your foot. But in swordwork, you don't need some much power for a light sharp weapon. It's different with a heavy weapon, of course.

That seems to fit well with my experience. IMO, hand before foot would NOT work well with the Taiji saber I've learned, but it's very effective with the fencing foil. I'll have to reserve judgement on Taiji sword until I actually learn it.

LOL with the "disclaimer", Braden. Everyone on this forum is so nitpicky I think eventually we're all going to have to attach 3 page disclaimers to each of our posts :).

Thanks for all the input, guys.

[Braden]

;)

The hand-before-foot thing is actually pretty interesting to me. I should have put more stress on the word overtly in my original post, as I think this is one of those things where there's more going on that meets the eye. I'm certainly not qualified to really say much about it though, as it's something I'm trying to investigate in my practice, and I'm not sure exactly what's going on. My teacher has said (to my recollection! I somehow seem to lose nuances here and there) that there's a variety of different approaches to training 'the right feel.' Certainly, I think we've all experienced that there's a feeling of everything moving/arriving at once. And yet, that's not entirely true. If one were to initiate movement in the foot or waist, would the foot or waist necessarily move first in the overt sense? There's a feeling in bagua that the hands lead the body (with all the above being kept in mind); there's a feeling, I think, that if something hard is coming at your face, you've got to put something in it's way ASAP; there's a feeling, I think, that if you're going to move your body in a responsive way, you have to make contact ASAP to use sensitivity. And yet none of this is actually true. In practice, if I were to simply stick my hand in the way (even if I followed the movement with all the other body movements) it would be incorrect (and it wouldn't work martially!). What's going on? I'm working consciously now on really putting the intent of my arm movements in my elbows, and there is definitely this paradoxical feeling of the part that's moving last (eg hands) moving first.

Yes, I am just rambling. But I'm rambling for the sake of clarifying, so it's good, right? :)