Training Qi in Martial Arts

[woliveri]

Something Paul Lin said on another post caught my attention and that was they trained their Qi to paraphrase.

When I was in Wah Lum there was no mention (other than Bai Fut Sow which was simply breathing to Dan Tien while in a horse stance, not much more) about training qi. In fact the topic of qi was always conveniently sidestepped or avoided when questions were raised.

After WL I trained with a Vietnamese Gentleman who opened my eyes with training techniques and stories of other Chinese and Vietnamese Masters abilities using Qi in Vietnam.

I'm curious how many schools or practitioners emphasize any training of qi in their training and if so how, not in detail but the general methodology.

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by woliveri
Something Paul Lin said on another post caught my attention and that was they trained their Qi to paraphrase.

When I was in Wah Lum there was no mention (other than Bai Fut Sow which was simply breathing to Dan Tien while in a horse stance, not much more) about training qi. In fact the topic of qi was always conveniently sidestepped or avoided when questions were raised.

After WL I trained with a Vietnamese Gentleman who opened my eyes with training techniques and stories of other Chinese and Vietnamese Masters abilities using Qi in Vietnam.

I'm curious how many schools or practitioners emphasize any training of qi in their training and if so how, not in detail but the general methodology.

2 ways for Qi training we do. 1. move form outside inward, use postures, movements, tendon applies, to open up the meridiums and increased the yin and yang of body. 2. prograss form mind outward to body. Started with meditation and slower training. This way usually are strongly link to a system of believe. That is what I can say generally off the top of my head.

[dezhen2001]

I don't train NPM but just wanted to share my experiences. I train hard qigong, soft qigong and wing chun. Hopefully Chen Taijiquan also someday :)

Really in class 'qi' is not mentioned so much... more attention is paid to getting the movements correct, relaxing, correct posture etc. Theory is covered as and when we come across it or need it, also it can be found out in your own time as theory doesn't change.

I know in my school we have had a few people come who 'chase the feeling of Qi', which is want to find out so much about Qi and all the great things that can happen, without really just getting on with practise. Also some people concentrate overly much on what the Qi should be doing instead of just doing it... Different reasons on why and how different methods of teaching can work...

just my thoughts :)

david

[yu shan]

Good point Woli,

PauLin, please explain "tendon applies", everything else comes natural.

Thanks Bro

:)l

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by yu shan
Good point Woli,

PauLin, please explain "tendon applies", everything else comes natural.

Thanks Bro

:)l

Tendon applying is the midground of external and internal, for what I know. That is even if you have no "shin fa" and no understanding meridiums or qi, just by training in tendon applying, you can gain qi benefits. It will open the way of meridium applying, once when the qi in the center are strong enough.

The meridiums path usually stuck when one cannot relaxed enough, and tendon applying would allow both force and relaxing to coexist. Since one main reason for the inability of relax is the fear of lacking force when relaxed, that is a good way to get relax. Chinese MA has a saying:"ning lain jin chang yi fen, bu lain ruo ho yi tson", that says it would be better to have one cm longer in tendon than one inch thick of muscle. will talk later when have time.

[SaMantis]

While it's true that qi is addressed less (at the beginner/intermediate levels) at Wah Lum than at other schools, this doesn't mean that it's being sidestepped or avoided.

As david said, emphasis is placed on getting the movements and posture correct in every aspect -- bai fut sow, basics, forms, application. Conditioning is very important in achieving correct posture -- mantis is both external and internal; and the tam tui aspect of WL is very external. Train only internal ("chasing qi") and ignore external conditioning, and you'll have a problem.

I can't say whether qi is addressed at advanced levels (I'm not there yet) but I'm sure it receives more attention. Basics of qi are discussed in beginning/intermediate classes but are not as in-depth as schools of internal study. This is just the way WL is set up. I've visited other kung fu schools and seen their beginner/intermediate classes, and their training and emphasis on qi is not very different.

[Tainan Mantis]

In Taiwan kung fu is usually taught in public places.
Once at dusk, as a class was finishing up, my teacher, Shr Zhengzhong, went to challenge another teacher.
He performed a takedown that some of you know as Deng Ta.

In this posture the body looks like a backwards front stance with one palm sticking straight out.

The technique is not the body slam type so the opponent flew backwards.

The interesting thing is that the opponent's students didn't see how my teacher's leg tripped their teacher and as he flew backwards my teacher kept his palm out so they all beleaved that he was projecting his chi power across open space.

The conclusion he made is that this is how these unbelievable chi stories get started.

[ursa major]

Since I started practicing 7 Star I have been searching out where the 'Chi' forms are ? Not that I think they are necessary, just curious to see how NPM treats the subject.

I know I am shifting off topic here, does anyone know if NPM maintains any forms specifically purposed in the development of Chi ?

thx,
RP.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Tainan Mantis
Interesting story. I have yet to see a believable qi demonstration that sends someone flying although I've heard stories from others who either saw or had it happen to them. I've seen and felt other very impressive qi demonstrations. I think your example explains a large percentage, if not all, of the 'knocking opponents down/out with qi' demos. BTW, I find it interesting that your teacher goes around challenging other teachers in public places. It reminds me of stories of Ed Parker (American Kenpo) knocking on the door of people he heard were good fighters just to test his skills.

[woliveri]

SaMantis,

## Please explain what is internal about Wah Lum.

## Even in internal schools the focus is not on "chasing qi" or the development of qi in practice. That is, if your focus is on the creation/production of qi then qi will not develop. The focus should be on proper posture, body alignment to allow qi to flow and the mind intent on a vessel such as the dan tien or wuji point (in standing practice).

So I know how it works in standing meditation but am interested in how a Martial Art would integrate qi training in their training such as what Paul Lin as spoken about.

I know of no one who has learned anything beyond Bai Fut Sow or general qi discussion but I haven't been there for a long time. Perhaps someone like Hua Lin can offer a response on that.

ursa major:

## There is a form in Called Soft Form which is supposed to be slow and Tai Qi like but I'm not certian of the internal properties of this form.

[mantis108]

First off, great topic and I agree with Paul's and Tainan's observations.

I would like to address Paul's comment further, but first a few thoughts on PM Qigong. There are 3 known Qigong forms in PM. The most popular and widely practiced one is the 18 Lohan. In Wong Han Fun's 18 Lohan book, which is essentially a updated edition of Hsing Xiao Dao Ren's (1764-1792 CE) original manuscript, the openning passage gives clues to a 200 some yrs old Kung Fu conditioning view. The most important part is actually the last 5 words. Those words give a definitive view of the relationship between Qi and li (strength) are propotional (might even be the same thing) - the stronger the Qi the stronger li. There is at least one other song of unknown origin that I know of conveys the same idea. When I was in the HK Kwoon GM Chiu had the "Menu" up on the wall. One item was Weight lifting and he often talked about the importance of weight lifting as part of the conditioning. I believe that Tainan's teacher, Shrfu Shr, used to weight lift as well. I was puzzled by it before since we all hear the "internal camp" frown on li. Now with this passage it really helps to see that in the older generations' minds (especially those coined "Shaolin external" real Kung Fu folk's minds) there is nothing wrong to develop li even 200 some years ago. In fact, that's one of the purpose of 18 lohan routine. So road 13 (isotonics) makes perfect sense. IMHO, the view of li is inferior conditioning might just be a recent thing (after 1930).


Tendon applying is the midground of external and internal, for what I know. That is even if you have no "shin fa" and no understanding meridiums or qi, just by training in tendon applying, you can gain qi benefits. It will open the way of meridium applying, once when the qi in the center are strong enough.

This is observation is quite consistant with the 18 Lohan. Tendon is understood differently in English and in Chinese. the word "Jin" in Chinese can mean a band (rubber or otherwise) that is tough and has elastisity to it. Even a flour dough can be worked to have "Jin". If you look at the word itself, it's a picture of fiber that is of flesh/muscle with strength. A well trained muscle has similar property to a elastic band. Personally, I don't think we should get stuck by the word. 18 Lohan is designed to strengthen from the core (strength of the torso) which is rooted in the Dan Tien, then to limbs. The root is developed through strengthening in the Dan Tien and lower limbs.. So, it is holistic; hence, the term Qi.


The meridiums path usually stuck when one cannot relaxed enough, and tendon applying would allow both force and relaxing to coexist. Since one main reason for the inability of relax is the fear of lacking force when relaxed, that is a good way to get relax. Chinese MA has a saying:"ning lain jin chang yi fen, bu lain ruo ho yi tson", that says it would be better to have one cm longer in tendon than one inch thick of muscle. will talk later when have time.

If we look at the 18 Lohan, we will see this comment makes a lot of sense. Stretching (tendon applying) is somewhat of Isotonic as well. With the 18 Lohan, one can be quite strong without big bulky muscles. There are other benefits such as:

Internal techniques: Mirco/Macro-Comsic cycles and compressing the Qi (a precursor to iron body training).

Opening up the major centers along the govenor and conception vessels. (especially the first road)

Stretching and strengthening the tendons and ligaments.

Eliminating blockages that occur in the joints and tendons allowing clear pathways for Qi circulations.

Pumping the lymphatic system, which helps cleanse the body of toxins; thus strengthening the immune system

Pumping the cranial and sacral pumps to circulate the cerebral spinal fluid, tonifying the central nervous system.

Those are some of the benefits. Again the term Qi is used in the sense that conditioning is a holistic process and Qi and Li is propotional to each other. Qi-Li expressed with speed through proper structure is Fa Jing, which many "internal schools" likes to call it Qi. Sometime, IMHO, it is more like a play of words than anything else. It all begins with proper conditioning.

Mantis108

[SaMantis]

woliveri,

mantis108 just explained the concept very well, and you're right, Hua Lin probably knows more than I do about how qi is addressed in Wah Lum.

You explained:


## Even in internal schools the focus is not on "chasing qi" or the development of qi in practice. That is, if your focus is on the creation/production of qi then qi will not develop. The focus should be on proper posture, body alignment to allow qi to flow and the mind intent on a vessel such as the dan tien or wuji point (in standing practice).
Yes, exactly.

What's internal in Wah Lum? What's internal in any mantis style, or in any CMA style for that matter? You'll get an answer for every one.

At my level the training is mainly external -- yet there I am, doing Bai Fut Sow. Doesn't seem like much of an exercise in chi development -- yet when I practice without starting with a few minutes of BFS, there's definitely a difference in the quality of that practice. Don't knock bai fut sow; it's doing more than you think.

Between your own experience at WL, and your expertise with internal arts, you should know some of the internal aspects of the mantis forms you learned at WL.

[PaulLin]

One more piece of additional info I would like to list it out. This is not form PM, but form KunLunDanTao. It says that although DanTien collected the qi and store it, but it didn't store in concentrated form. So during the day time, one can have qi in DanTien, but before fall to sleep, one must concentrate qi passed the yin bridge to the ming men--the gate of life.

[dezhen2001]

It's good to find out so much new information on Chinese Martial Arts (especially after so much bickering on the main and other forums). So many knoweledgeable people, it's a good thing :)

Northern Mantis seems to be a very great skill :)

david