Teaching MA - business or pleasure

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

I'm looking to open a school soon. I've alway felt I wanted a school where the serious stay and the disinterested drop off. I have a friend in New jersey that teaches Kenpo like that. That's fine if you work full time or you're rich. What I'm facing now is the need to make money with the school however the last thing I want is the after-school-babysitting-just-to-pay-the-bills program.

What I'd like some input on is whether it's, let's say, dishonest to water down the training in order to gain and maintain a large student base. Also, does it disrupt the serious students training to have others around them not really making an effort.

I see people join and train but don't seem to really want to put in the amount of effort it takes to excel.

[woliveri]

Hua Lin Laoshi
Are you sure you want to open a school and remain in WL?
It seems opening a school is the first step to being kicked out for most students. Not that that would happen to you but it seems the trend.

As far as your comments of keeping only the serious and loosing the disinterested, The way I would work this (If I ever had the desire to open a MA school which I don't and since it is a business) is to keep as many students as you have room for. Then, have an advanced class for the hard core, the people you want to bring to another level. Not to make more money per se but to satisfy your desire as a teacher to produce good students. After all, money is money and business is business. This way you have the best of both worlds, the casual MA who want to be healthy and the hard core who eat, drink, and breath KF.

I'll add something else. It seems to me that students that are driven to excel need little more than instruction on how to train. Just give the the reins and watch them go. Give them guidance and they'll do all the work.

I mean, what's the difference between a hard core class and a regular class but more of the same and more intense.

For example:

Regular Class: Iron Bridge 1 to 2 min.
Hard Core: 10 min? (Sean used to do that)

Hard Core would have more basics. More refinement. More attention to detail. You know you can push the hard core people to the max and they'll love it rather than drop out.



Just some comments from the outside.

[18elders]

Well you have a difficult task ahead of you, i never wanted to open my own school, i would rather learn more. I know you learn more about your material by teaching but it is alot more pressure.
Also (don't give me hell for saying this), you are in an organization where the $ goes to the top. You can't make money off your testing as most goes to the temple, you have no belt system as Tae kwon do or other styles. You are limited on where to buy your weapons,pants,shoes etc. It would make more sense for all the sifus to become one big buying group and get great pricing for your stuff instead of paying high $ to the temple. The problem with that is the top of the hill doesn't get all the $.
You can't make $ on class uniforms unless you want to rape your students,($17.50 for lightweight kung fu pants- sifu cost), can you mark that up to sell to your student when they can get it for $10 through a catalog? You can get a tae kwon do uniform for $10.

If you want to make money i suggest going to other schools that do and see what kind of program they have. Do what the successful do and improve on it, the tae kwon do schools do pretty well.
Good luck!

[yu shan]

Hua Lin

First of all, good luck to you! Do you have an area your thinking about? Also, location, location, location! This is very important, try to get into the Asian community, use your Shrfu`s influence.

If it is like the old days, pay the extra monthly cost, and buy your supplies on your own. You can put together a nice school shirt (your collective behavior) alot less cost. I was sending very large checks back to the Temple paying for supplies every month. THIS cuts into your profit big time.

Do not water down...you have a strong system, present it that way! Like was mentioned before, have a basic class. Then you of course, have the hard core. I must say this. Speaking of hard core, Arthur had his brand, Sean had his, I was lucky to experience both. Nothing compares to a work out with Pong Lai!

Nice advice Woli!

[Ye Gor]

Hua Lin, you want the best of both worlds.

I can give this advice, though:

1) Actively search out people who already have experience running schools (quite a few in WL), and just ask them. As in: "Hi, I'm so-and-so, please share with me your experience... etc, etc."

2) Treat it as a business FIRST (or be always poor). For example, try to do it on paper first. Do you know what a 'business plan' is? Put down all the costs, (startup, recurring), realistic projections of #s of students (will depend on location, price, type of town, what you teach, advertisement, etc). See what it would take to be in the green after 12 months of operation.

3) In US (unlike China), fitness is in but pain is out. That's why tae bo is kickingA.

Yeah, good luck.

[Ye Gor]

Originally posted by yu shan
Speaking of hard core, Arthur had his brand, Sean had his, I was lucky to experience both. Nothing compares to a work out with Pong Lai! yu shan. Enough bragging already. Guess I'll have to come down there and check your PLness out. (Kick some sorry PL ass.) ;)

[spiralstair]

Hua Lin wrote: "What I'm facing now is the need to make money with the school however the last thing I want is the after-school-babysitting-just-to-pay-the-bills program."

Be careful not to fall into the elite martial arts snobbery thing... it sounds like something like this ' I only want to teach those who are ready to receive the TRUE Transmission, no unwilling, unable or half-a$$ed need apply'.

The hard facts of the Western lifestyle for the martial arts teacher are: Rent, Utilities, Taxes, and students who have many choices and not much ability to discern the 'real' from the 'hyped'.

"Babysitting" is for babysitters. A physical training progran for children contained within the framework of a Kung Fu school is another thing altogether. No, the kindergarten age kids can not do a sit-up. But there is a interesting progression of movement that builds the strength required. Strength in the abdomen. Sounds like Kung Fu.

I teach 50 kids a week (kindergarten-4th Grade) in 3, 60 minute classes. It's 150 hours a year for a strong financial foundation for my school.

I don't teach 'Respect means do Your Homework' and all that other stuff , that is the parents job. I'm a physical trainer, and even though most kids can't learn Kung Fu form well till they're in 3rd-4th grade, there are other physical things that they must learn for the right foundation.

Study. There are dozens of good sources for information about correct pyhsical training for children. Find them and adapt them to your Martial Art that comes from China, a culture where the teacher 'slaps 'em into shape'.

After all, what's more of a challenge, passing your knowledge on to someone who loves Kung Fu as much as you, or finding the ways to help those who will forget to even say " thank you"?

[flem]

hua linlaoshi,

kids class is the key, expect alot of turnover but thats where the numbers are. also, i had success with parent/child classes, pushed as a time for them to share an activity. the thing about kids is that it's all about fun and more fun, that doesn't mean unrealistic, just on their level. if you don't think you can handle kids, get someone teaching for you as soon as you can-remember any adult will quickly learn enough to teach on their level. i had good success putting down numbered spots to learn footwork, and found they love equipment-sparring "armour", punch and kick targets, heavy bag , etc. the parents love their enthusiasm, so it is important for you to transmit something they can be proud of, whether a new kick, that they are really flexible, got to demonstrate for a line drill, whatever. something that makes them talk about clas all the way home! the last thing, and most omportant(that i never did and should have) is compete. they love it, it gives them a goal, and to them it's the same as a game in other sports
good luck!

[baldmantiz]

myself and a few others were having a similar discussion to this on the kungfuusa forum....it was about the quality over quantity for students and trying to preserve some sort of tradition instead of trying to market kung fu to everyone....unfortunately like you said...unless you are rich, this will just not work...in todays world...longer contracts may be necessary....and like another said on this thread...the kids classes are where the real money is....good luck on your endeavors.

[flem]

yu shan,

i didn't have time earlier, but i wanted to say something about your last post. now everyone can see that you are infatuated w/ your current style, but am i wrong to assume that you said that ponglai's classes are harder than AD's? if that is what you are saying i believe the age factor that you mention so often has caught up to you! in fact, you may be better off taking up tai chi.
i don't really mean this as an insult to you or pong lai, i just find it hard to believe there are too many schools operating that do one hour bai fut sow(i know you don't perform that exercise, it's just an example)-enlighten me if i'm wrong, and save the forearm/shin bashing horror stories- that hurts, but it doesn't make you puke.
also, i must assume that everyone in tampa is ripped-like bruce lee?

[NorthernMantis]

Personally I don't think there's anything wrong with having pride in one's school regardless of style. Hey it's normal, I can't imagine not being in wah lum. However one must be careful as to how to express it. Saying that nothing compares to [ insert school/style here] can give the impression that you're saying that other's styles are worthless but we all know that yu shan meant well.I like to see people's enthusiasm in what they do.:cool:

[yu shan]

Hi Flem

Wouldn`t put it as being "infatuated" just plain ole happy with what I`m doing.

Arthur`s training was amazing, and he drove us into the ground. Then I trained with Sean Cochran. For those here who know of his intense classes, enough said. Pong Lai just fills the void, yet enhances any "tuff" workout I`ve exerienced in my career. Come try it out for yourself, the door is open. By the way, this old man does Tai Chi every morning.

How`s your knees doing Flem?

Anyway, kid`s classes are good, include the parent`s when possible. Get out in your community, pass out a flyer, and bs. Hopefully for you, P. Chan will help you get a good start, and support you. HL I`ll give you a buz this weekend.

[flem]

yu shan,

what "void" did you feel was filled? from AD's- cause i don't know about sean's classes. also, is everyone down there ripped- those guys previously mentioned in the AD thread looked as if they did not have time to eat-just train.
my knees? they are good- like bionic- better, stronger, faster(if that's possible! lol) how are yours... old man.

[yu shan]

El Viejo esta aqui (the old man) the void I spoke of, simply means, I am being taught material that I`ve never seen before, but only heard about. Sure I`m excited, but there are better things in my life than MA. I am my age, lift weights everyday, sit-ups out the wazoo, KF 7 days a week, probably just like you. After leaving WL my knees stop hurting, they do a southern stance background, killer on knees. As for being ripped, I have a weakness for Spanish cuisine, thus the sit-ups! :)

Hua Lin, do you have a Lion Dance set up? Another way to get into the community. If you are to be in the area mentioned, push P. Chan to support your start, it is close! Don`t stress, things will work out, think smart, have fun.

Hey NorthernMantis, have you been thrown into the Lion yet?

[NorthernMantis]

Yes I have and it's very tough. I don't know how those guys in Malaysia do it with those 50 foot poles.:eek: Since I'm very light I get the lion head and it feels like it get's heavier every lion dance.

[seung ga faat]

This is what I am doing.I have daytime satellite programs in primary,junior & senior high schools.
Now this keeps me very busy because I also teach at a main school 4 days aweek and weekends.But this keeps a fresh supply of students to draw from and its great marketing tool for the style.
________
rambler (bicycle) (http://www.dodge-wiki.com/wiki/Rambler_(bicycle))
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Public movies (http://www.****tube.com/categories/35/public/videos/1)

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Thanks for all the feedback. I'm sure I'll be talking to some of you more in the future.

seung ga faat
I'd like to hear more about the high school programs you offer. There's also a PAL building in the area where I'm looking. You can e-mail me privately at dscott@sunterra.com or post here to share with everyone.

[carly]

Pong Lai mantis school sounds very interesting.
I think it's great that there's two mantis schools in Orlando, so students can see and compare, and learn appications and sparring if that's what they want.