Standards of Martial Arts in the West

[Kilik]

Hey everyone

Funny thing crossed my mind the other day...

What does everybody think about the standards of Martial Arts in the West compared to the East?

More specifically training methods, training time, emphasis on internal vs external

I mean, a martial artist practicing 8hrs a day as a living compared to the majority of us who would spend the equilvalent over a week, or practicing stances for hours and understanding concepts such as centerline emphasis, compared to spending training time building strength through push-ups.etc. and sparring.

Which one would be better and will this affect the standards?

[Budokan]

All things being equal, the standards of MA here in the West is much lower than that in other parts of the world. Don't believe me? Take a look in the yellow pages of your phone book under 'martial arts'. When you've stopped guffawing then maybe you'll see what I mean...

[Black Jack]

I don't know if I buy that Budokan,

Dedication is a one on one thing, I bet there is plenty of garbage over there as well as here, one thing is for sure, the western world is a melting pot of martial knowldge from ALL OVER the globe, unlike the east.

It's easier to cross-train and spread information over here.

[Shadow Dragon]

Having trained in quiet a few places, I have to say that the more to the west you go the poorer the quality appears to be.
(I can only talk about what I have seen of course. Good & bad on both sides.)

Are the MA more watered down in the west.
Not really, I think the problem lies more with the Teachers and Students and their attitude towards MA and training.
A lot less cross-training at lower levels, etc.
This starts with showing respect, ego, questioning what is taught and so on.

The west has too many limitations on what can be and what can't be done
and what is PC and so on.

Attitude in Asia often is more like this is the way I teach, don't like it .... Cheerio.
Or:
You got hurt/injured, good you know what you did wrong? ... Kay, don't do it again.

Some of the people I trained with have hit me to correct poses, shoved and man-handled me into correct postures and neither very gentle.

Just a very different environment/culture that requires a different type of Student and commitment.

Also I feel fewer Students are keen to open a School and found/create their own style. Again cultural in my Opinion.

A lot of Styles, got lower requirements for opening a Dojo/Kwoon/Dojang in the west than in their Home Country.

Example:
Shorinshi Kempo:
6th Dan inside Japan
3rd Dan outside Japan.

Just my 2 cents worth.

[Braden]

The #1 MA in Taiwan is TKD. If you think 'the east' is this mystical place of warrior-monks where your neighbours on all sides will be secret lineage-holders of unknown styles, you're kidding yourself.

Training 8 hours a day, employed as a martial artist? Really? Where and when? Are we talking communist China's modern wushu training programs? Or are we talking traditional martial arts? If it's the latter, again you're kidding yourself. Yin Fu sold hot cakes all day. Cheng Ting Hua sold eyeglasses. Ma Weiqi shovelled coal. These were the greatest first generation masters of baguazhang.

[Shadow Dragon]

Braden.

Agree with your Post.

At the same time the serious Students at the good schools in Asia are very different to their counterparts in the West.
Difference as I said is in their attitude not training hours or type of training.
I never believed the stories of Master of old only doing MA, not working, etc.

I remember one show I watched while I was in Japan, and have found this to be quiet true in a few places.

Guy owns an Italian restaurant, growing his own spices. When asked by the commentator about why and how.

He told the following story:
He taught Kendo in Italy for 6 1/2 Years, but fell in love with the cuisine and when he came back to Japan he decided to rather cook and run a Restaurant than earn his living with Kendo. He still teaches a small group.
So I agree, not many lineages holders or secret masters/styles.
But a lot of good solid, ranked MA that don't rely on MA for a living as many want to do in the west.

Whereas in the west too many People
are obsessed with rank or becoming a Sifu and opening their own Kwoon/Dojo/Dojang.
To be honest I sometimes get the feeling that many choose to teach MA simply because they can't suceed at standard work or because they want an easier life.

Just my Opinion.

[Former castleva]

MA in general,is considered eastern.
MA has been practiced in east for an extremely long amount of time,but I think it has not been that long when it started to slowly slide towards west.
This is just my idea what I´ve created by listening to others.
Shadowdragon,
you mentioned stances,
I´ve got the idea that in east,this kind of things are pretty much left for the student,to study them by himself once they have showed how to.
And you already got it...west is vice versa.

[Dark Knight]

Whereas in the west too many People
are obsessed with rank or becoming a Sifu and opening their own "

This is so true. Now there are paper mills out there that will sell you any rank you want to be . Go to USMA with Phil Porter and tell him what rank you think you should be and he will make the certificate. The world Sokeship council will make a certificate calling you a soke grandmaster, all you need is to be 35 and a 6th in any system. Tell them you created your own and poof you are a grandmaster of your own system.

There are tons more on the internet that will dothat for you.

Then ask why we have watered down systems by high ranking masters, because they bought thier rank.

[Shaolindynasty]

If this is mostly directed at the USA's martial arts then I'd have to say it's partially correct. Mostly due to acceptance. There isn't as much top MA here because it hasn't been here that long when compared to it's country of origin. Martial arts are practiced there like people play basketball here. So as a whole they do have better MA simply because they have a larer pool of talent to draw from.

BUT.....Amongst dedicated individuals for both countries they are equal. That is if the conditions are right, Good teacher, dedicated, tough regular training etc.

[Black Jack]

Braden the point of your post is on the ball. I call it the asianophile syndrome.

MA in general is only considered eastern if that is as far as your experiances, research and mindseye has taken you, the westen world had been and is stock full of its own vast martial disciplines, training methods and tactics.

Just as effective, rich and as deep as anything the east has ever created.

Most asian martial players know this, the only ones who don't are trying to play kung fu the legend continues.

[KC Elbows]

I agree and disagree. Only one of the advantages of a pschizoid personality.

Chinese martial arts in the west are generally not as good as in China. But are they better in Korea than the US?

Japanese martial arts are generally not as good in the west as in Japan. Are they better in China?

Care to place a wager on a top ranked US boxer vs. a Chinese one(speaking boxing, not chinese boxing)?

How about a chinese Copoiera maestre vs. a brazilian one?

Anyone wanna wager on the US olympic wrestling teams chances against the chinese in the next olympics?

Anyone know what country the grandmaster of liu ha ba fa(sp?) lives in?

How about the fact that the cultural revolution drove some of the best kung fu masters out of the east and to the west?

Do you think the chinese fencers will beat the french consistently for the next ten years?

Why are there so few chinese savate teachers compared with the French?

I'm looking for a chinese teacher of pankration, as the west is not really familiar with martial arts. Can anyone help me?

Could anyone tell me where to find a chinese kung fu teacher who learned in china but is not very good?

If mckwoon's are an american creation, then why are some of them owned by asian martial artists trained in asia? Did they get some sort of hamburger poisoning when they arrived that caused them to cross over to the lame side?

I just can't seem to get this sarcasm thing down. Can anyone help me?

[Mr Punch]

Depends what you're practising, and what you want it for.

The aikido here doesn't seem as street effective as the stuff back home (they don't seem to need it). But I would agree with Shadow that the attitude here is different.

The attitude here is that YOU WILL SUCCEED.

In the UK, sometimes people get graded because they turn up, week after week. It doesn't matter that they can't do anything.

In Japan, you get graded because you turn up AND you can do the curriculum. Most MAs seem to have a curriculum, and as Shadow said, if you don't know what you're doing you learn pretty quick, or you're in trouble! This kind of attitude is good, because it helps to keep the politics out of the art. You know that you can do it! Whether it's useful or not is another matter!!!:rolleyes:

That's just Japan. Can't wait to get to HK!!!

In general, I'd say:

more dojos = lower quality.

(The percentage of bad dojos is the same!)

And the thing about career martial artists is largely bs.

[Former castleva]

BlackJack,
I guess you do have a point.
I thought it like this:Whenever I think of arts,I immediately think of oriental arts,that´s probably what many people first think about.
I know from slim to nothing about western martial arts.
Good idea anyway.;)

[NorthernMantis]

Originally posted by Braden
The #1 MA in Taiwan is TKD. If you think 'the east' is this mystical place of warrior-monks where your neighbours on all sides will be secret lineage-holders of unknown styles, you're kidding yourself.

Training 8 hours a day, employed as a martial artist? Really? Where and when? Are we talking communist China's modern wushu training programs? Or are we talking traditional martial arts? If it's the latter, again you're kidding yourself. Yin Fu sold hot cakes all day. Cheng Ting Hua sold eyeglasses. Ma Weiqi shovelled coal. These were the greatest first generation masters of baguazhang.

My grandsmasters sifu was a bodyguard.:p