What makes it Hung Gar?

[Octavius]

I am of the understanding that the Hung Gar (I'll shorten it to HG) practiced by many people these days is the Canton version of the Wong Fei Hung branch. They share similar curricula and forms (altho there are some differences bewteen the sub-branches of the more proliferate WFH's students like Lam Sai Wing and Tang Fung, etc), but you can still see that they are similar enuf. I also understandt that there are other versions of HG, Village styles and such. And then there are the non-Hong Kong versions, like ones from South East Asia or Taiwan. So if one were to go to a HG school, and they teach HG not of the Canton branch, what charactersitics should we be looking for to see that it is HG and not something else? This is not a question of which version is better, but one of what qualities in the forms and techniques and training one should look for. I understand that as different as they may be, the various different branches and sub-branches should still share common principles, but what does this mean? Are there similar techniques to look out for? Similar training regimens, stepping methodologies, etc? What would make it diferent from each other yet distintinctly a version of HG, but not someother Southern art that is somewhat related, like Jow Ga or CLF or Fu Jow? Could anyone give a couple of concrete examples? Thanks.

[sungzu]

Good question I would like to know some answers for this.

[David Jamieson]

Hung Gar contains Gung Gee Fook Fu as it's foundation set.

Other pillar sets include, fu/hok (tiger/crane), ng ying kuen (5 animals), sap ying kuen(5 elements) and tid sen kuen(iron wire).

In some lineages all these sets are there as well as others that have been adopted depending on the lineage. eg: lau gar, mok gar, etc, etc.

The one thing I find in common with village Hung styles, Large lineage styles (lam sai wing-related) is that they have shaolin tiger style and shaolin fundamentals at the core of the style.

P.S nik Lo, is this wrong? ;)

peace

[iron_silk]

But I do believe that some of the pillars mentioned are still only related to the Wong Fei Hung lineage.

Except of Gung gee Fook Fu tit seen kuen is definitely added by Wong Fei Hung and same goes for Fu Hok (I believe) and there is something about that only Wong Fei Hung lineage have ng ying or sup ying kuen?

I believe you should check out www.wle.com I forgot the master's name temporarily (I think it's Wing Lam) but he is apparently mastered many different lineages of Hung gar (e.g. Ha Say Fu)

I also wanted to add that he wrote an article in a magazine before comparing the characteristic differences in the many lineages.

I hope this helps!

[urban tea]

Hung Gar has it's own expression of power that separates it from other arts. There's a shaking tension that is shown in the forms, but not a really tense tension.

If you have seen YC Wong move in the last 10 years, then you'd see the expresssion of power that Hung should have.

[David Jamieson]

Tid Kiu Sarm brought the Iron Wire set into Hung Gar, Wong Fei Hung brought Tiger/Crane.

Taming the Tiger (Gung Gee Fook Fu) is the thread that binds the patchwork together.

peace

[TenTigers]

Hung-Ga is also known for variety of faht-ging-power issuing. There is inch power(inch punch, inch hip,wrist,shoulder, etc)listening/sticking power, whipping power, squeezing power, shaking power,spiraling power,sinking, long power, etc. Also known for "the whole body is the fist"-meaning, one-the whole body generates power, and two, every part of the body can be used for striking.

[TenTigers]

Since Hung-Ga is reputed to be the complete system that left the Siu-Lum temple intact, it is considered to be the original southern Siu-Lum Five Animal form. This means that although many other systems were derived from Siu-Lum 5 animal, they are specializations; Hung-Ga encompasses them all.

[Nick Lo]

Poor misguided Kungy, it amazes me how much you spout off on hung gar and yet know absolutely nothing outside of easily found internet crap and wing lam video fu. So now, lets clarify some things shall we? I have a feeling you should start calling me sihing (or daddy, depending on my mood) with all the corrections i have to do for you.

1. Ng Ying is not a pillar form, although the Tang Fungers have Ng Ying and the Lam's have Sup Ying, they are both derivatives of each other. If you knew how the Ng Ying of LSW lineage came into play, you would not have said such a stupid statement (as usual). Go and check out one of your many internet sites that you reference and you'll see what i say is true. Dont check one of your many videos cuz it wont be on there bra.

2. I'm glad that you see the importance of gung gee, but if its the thread that binds the patchwork between fu hok and tid sin, why is it the foundation, (So where does Sup Ying come into play?)

Why dont you actually suprise me with something worth reading for a change and not just the usual verbal diarrhea.

I eagerly await your reply my dumb cannuck novice.

Nick


P.S. It must suck having a sigung that is really a VCR. Is that the NTSC or PAL lineage?

[David Jamieson]

Well Nik, I was waiting with baited breath for yet another of your ascerbic responses.

You have not failed me in spouting forth your usual hateful tones and other bile.

Please re-read what I have said. You have again misinterpreted my words (as usual).

It is unusual that from day one you have taken this stance with me. Too much Yang in you.


If you are ever in "canuck" land, please look me up, i would be happy to share tea with you.

As for my teacher and his teacher(s)... I think I can safely say that someone as impetuous as yourself would last about a hot 10 seconds with either of them. In other words, keep your kiddy pokes aimed at me, and otherwise hold your tongue in regards to what my teacher has so generously imparted to me. You know little or nothing of any of us. It seems you know little or nothing of anything.

Well, that's about as provocative a response as you will get from me. Are you satisfied?

peace

[guohuen]

Why all the animosity?

[Merryprankster]

I have no business here, but clicked on a thread that looked interesting. I found to my utter amazement, severe hostility directed at Kung.

Since he's too polite to say it, I will:

You're a jerk, Nick Lo. A complete Knee-biter.

May your scabrous rump be poxed and may an army of flies sally forth and infest the pustules with their issue.

Cheers,

James Valentine.

[Nick Lo]

So uhhhhhhh......How bout you answer the questions Kungy?

[TenTigers]

So uhhh why don't you stay on topic and save your childish behavior for the schoolyard, some of us are actually martial artists, interested in the free exchange of ideas.

[Nick Lo]

TenTigers- you should be the last person to talk. Aren't you the idiot that gets his iron wire knowledge from Goju? Talk about not having a clue bra.

[urban tea]

Hey when you guys meet up to have tea together....is t hat going to be urban tea?? :D

[TenTigers]

Hmmm you must certainly be an authority on gung-fu, however, there is a world of difference between Tiet Sien Kuen of Hung-Ga and Sam Jien Kuen of Ngor Mei P'ai-two separate forms, separate ideology-although both might have common roots.

[guohuen]

Hey Nick, If I get out to the islands again, or you come stateside we should get together and cross hands. In a friendly way of course.

[Je Lei Sifu]

It all depend on the branch whether or not Ng Ying is a pillar form. Most LSW branches have both Ng Ying and Sup Ying, Where's TF have Sup Ying only. So which one would be your so-called pillar set?

Peace

Je Lei Sifu

[TenTigers]

Traditionally, Tang Fung has Ng Ying Kuen, however, it is Five Animals, Five Elements, it just doesn't have the 30 or so element punches that LSW Sup Ying Kuen has. Also, the Dragon section is different-more technique-oriented,less tiet sien kuen. Some schools, (like mine)also teach Sup Ying Kuen to give a good overall view on Hung Kuen. I like Sup Ying Kuen because the snake, dragon, tiger and leopard sections differ from our Ng Ying Kuen. The crane is very similar, however, different rooting...at least in the version we do. In many LSW schools, the difference between Sup Ying Kuen and Ng Ying Kuen are the additional elemnet punches tagged on at the end. Is this the same in other LSW schools, or are they completely different forms?

[Nick Lo]

this discussion isn't going in the right direction. Its about almighty kung lek and his all knowing skills. he says that ng ying is a pillar form and gung gee is the thread between fu hok and tid sin, i want to know how he has come to this conclusion ???

ten tigers, interesting response but clarification needs to be made. You say lam sai wing ng ying and sup ying are different because of element skills, but if you understand why ng ying was brought into existance then you wouldn't have said what you did.

This has nothing to do with the Ng Ying of Tang Fung.

[David Jamieson]

Ng ying Kuen is a pillar form in Hung Gar.

Perhaps not all styles, but there it is.

I never said Gung Gee Fook Fu was the thread between any sets, I said Gung Gee is the Thread common to all styles of Hung Gar.

And just for the record, I am not "almighty" Nik. I am but a practitioner of Chinese Martial Arts and that's all. I have worked and do work very hard to continue and maintain and further understand.

peace

[Je Lei Sifu]

For the records, the five elements can be found within each and every branch of Hung Ga. Each of the sets performed contain the elements. However, us TF guys don't have a sequence in any of our sets which concentrate on the elements alone.

Peace

Je Lei Sifu

[Octavius]

Wow, ask a simple question... (or mebbe it was not so simple :))

OK, thanks to all of you for your replies, altho I had hope this could be civil and not stray too far into personal attacks. But oh well.

Anyway, it seems that a lot of the replies have been about Gung Gee and Ng Ying and Sup Ying and such - and I have learned much from that. But what of the more esoteric Hung versions? Like Ha Say Fu, or some of the lesser known Village Hung styles? Do they also have Gung Gee and the 5/10 animales? Or is that more of a Canton HG thang? I have seen the demos of the HSF HG and it looks very unlike Canton HG. And i have conversed with at least one Village HG practitioner who has said that they do not have Gung Gee, altho he did say he had 5 Animals as a form (unfortunately I have not been able to SEE _him_ move cause our conversation was by email). So what do you fellows think?

Here's what I have noticed so far (and feel free to add or substract from here).

All HGs seem to have a form/section/drill/exercise in their training where dynamic tension of some kind is used. Low stances are not a universal since versions like HSF do not have many low stances. Also, there is a preponderance on the use of tiger in many of the attacks and crane in the defenses. This seems to be more of a strategy or tactic and not necessarily specific techniques. Finally, as a general hand-wavy descriptor, there seems to be a greater emphasis on strong, powerful techniques that are a tad slower (relatively speaking) but overwhelm like artillery barrages than fast, rapid-fire techniques (again, reltively) that overwhelm like a chain-gun. Note I said emphasis. BUT, and here's the clincher, I see this kind of description applies to a number of other southern arts - like hung Fut and CLF. NOt all, but in parts. So thus my question...

[GreyMystik]

actually, what you said was, "Taming the Tiger (Gung Gee Fook Fu) is the thread that binds the patchwork together. "

you stated this directly after stating "Tid Kiu Sarm brought the Iron Wire set into Hung Gar, Wong Fei Hung brought Tiger/Crane."

i can see how your words could very easily be taken to mean "gun gee fook fu is the thread that binds the fu hok and tid sin sets together", seeing as how these were the sets you were referring to in virtually the same breath.

i, too, interpreted what you stated in the same manner as Nick Lo.

[TenTigers]

"This has nothing to do with the Ng Ying of Tang Fung."
Ah-Ha! ok, then in the words of Gilda Radner, "Oh, that's very different. Never mind!":-)
Guongdong Hung-Ga does indeed have quick rapid-fire techniques, as seen in the Snake section of the Ng Ying Kuen, and in the Leopard section, the "slow" swinging strikes are done with fast explosive movements. But, I do see your point. I have studied different lineages of Hung Kuen, and most of them seem alike in structure and technique. If you look at some of the village Hung-Kuen, you will see a relationship to Guongdong Hung-Ga in the opening sections of the pillar sets, which are done with feet closer in and tighter movements. Tang Fong Hung-Ga in fact utilizes the Yee Ji Kim Yeung Ma in our opening sequences before "opening up" the horse. So they aren't really that dissimilar. The good thing I have noticed pretty much across the board is that Hung-Ga people seem to agree to dissagree, and accept each other's differences.

[David Jamieson]

Grey- I see that point.

What I meant by the patchwork comment was this:

Gung Gee Fook Fu is the form common to virtually all styles and families of Hung Gar.

and

While some styles that can be legitimately called "Hung" do not contain the "Gung Gee fook fu" as taught to the Hung Gar founder(s), they most certainly contain the stylings of the Tiger style from the Shaolin Temple.

It is the Shaolin Tiger that is carried across alll styles of Hung Gar.

I hope that this clarifies.

peace

[phoenix-eye]

As I have recently started moving from Lau Gar( as taught in UK) to Hung Gar I have read these posts with interest.

Nick Lo - you seem to have some strong opinions on the matter - why dilute your input by directing negative comments at Kung Lek? Let us all hear what you really have to say and we might then learn more than just your opinion on Kung Lek..........

I am just getting to grips with Gung Gee FF and I never realised that there was so many differences across lineages. I understood the pillars of HG to be (in my ignorance of course):-

1. Gung Gee Fook Fu
2. Tiger & Crane
3. 5 Animals / 5 Elements
4. Tid Sin Kuen

I am a total novice at this so would welcome any clarification on the above.

Our style includes the Hung Gar Lau Gar fist and pole sets.

[Helicopter]

Tiger/Crane was originally a much shorter form that was recoreographed by Wong Fei Hung.

Does anyone know any Hung Ga styles that practice the earlier version?

[Helicopter]

What are considered to be the core/pillar weapon styles of Hung Ga? (if any.)