Bruce Lee Question

[sungzu]

Was Bruce Lee really any good at fighting?

[tri2bmt]

No.
He sucked.

[Rafael]

BRUCE LEE
UNDERESTIMATED Pt 1 .
by: Patrick Strong


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Just the other day I received word from a European writer who has written a number of articles on Jeet Kune Do and, having known many of JKD's top people, is now completing a book on Bruce Lee and his Jeet Kune Do. I enjoyed the discussion, but there was something in te writer’s reporting that troubled me. It was the notion that Bruce Lee has been overestimated. Boy, how many times on different jkd forums have I read that very same thing.

My response was just the opposite. I maintained that Bruce was not overestimated but, in fact, that he was grossly UNDERESTIMATED! I went on to say that Bruce has never really received proper credit for the TRUE DEPTH of his KNOWLEDGE. What he has been credited for was an amazing exhibition of skills, breaking tradition, and the forming of a new martial art; and while these thoughts can be appreciated and are certainly true, they are, at very best, very shallow. In truth, Bruce had a scientific approach to martial art that began with a proven body of knowledge containing a host of pragmatic principles and startling mechanical advantages.

As a researcher, he was not only interested in experimenting with new ideas and concepts, but actually putting them to test and proving them out. As a young student of Wing Chun Gun Fu, he was driven to prove that what he learned in the kwoon would work in the street. In Hong Kong, Bruce Lee, his close friend and training partner, Hawkins Cheung, and a few other young men gained deserving reputations as "The Rooftop Fighters". When not fighting in the street, Bruce and Hawkins would meet go out of their way to meet other stylists on either a rooftop or is some darkened garage, as such fights in Hong Kong were illegal.

Whenever either one of them would run into a problem in a fight they would not rest until they figured out how to solve the problem. Fortunately, they had two wonderful sources to draw from. There was Wong Sheung Leung (Hawkins says he was known as, "Crazy Leung"), who was the most notorious battler of the Wing Chun clan, and one of the original Rooftop Fighters. Leung was older than Bruce and Hawkins, but he took an interest in them. Bruce and Hawkins, in turn, hung out with Leung to learn everything they could about real combat. Leung had been so respected as a fighter that even though he was a wing chun man, fighters from the other systems welcomed him as a referee even when fighting Wing Chun fighters. At the same time, Bruce and Hawkins would go to Master, Yip Man who, behind closed doors, would analyze their queries and give them special pointers to take into the street.

When Bruce packed his bags and left Hong Kong, he brought with him a unique fighting ability, based on a set of highly unique principles and mechanics. So unique were they, that martial artists in America would be amazed by his effectiveness. In 1959, Bruce gave a demonstration at Edison Technical School in Seattle where he met James DeMille, a former U.S. Army Heavy Weight boxing champion with over 100 fights in the ring. At 225 lbs, James was also a highly reputed and feared street fighter, yet he was no match for Bruce at around 135 lbs who could tie him knots and shut him down in an instant.

I remember when a karate sensei came over from Japan and challenged Bruce to a fight. After the fight, the Sensei explained his injuries as being in a car accident. It is reported that Bruce, after his fight with Won Jack Man, had been displeased with his performance and that is why he began to change his art. I recall having had dinner with Bruce shortly after that fight. At that moment, he had been most pleased with himself, considering that Won Jack Man was so very difficult to hit because he kept running and spinning and way from Bruce’s attack. It wasn't until Bruce was finally able to catch up to Man that they went to the ground where Bruce finished the fight. Knowing Bruce, I give Won Jack Man tremendous credit for his skills in avoidance. I think he was smart not to stand his ground with someone the likes of Bruce. At this period in Bruce’s life, he believed in ending the fight quick within the first few seconds. But this fight went on a bit with Bruce chasing his adversary with chain punches (straight blast). Anyone who has ever thrown bunches of chain punches knows how easy it is to tire quickly, since the activity requires involvement of Type II, Fast Twitch B muscle fibres for explosive outburst. Those type of fibres do indeed tire quickly before giving over to Type II, Fast Twitch A fibres, that also tire fast. Nevertheless, the outcome of a somewhat prolonged fight would have been adequate reason for Bruce Lee to more closely examine his method. Obviously, he viewed it as a problem and, like in the past, he set out to solve the problem.

I have told the story of how when in 1964 Ed Parker presented his first International Karate Tournament in Long Beach, where he invited a young and virtually unknown Bruce Lee to come and demonstrate his gung fu. For his demonstrators and forms competitors, Ed had had made available a special room where they could rehearse. In the room surveying the talent was Sensei Oshima, direct descendent of Funakoshi. Accompanying Sensei, Oshima was his highest ranking black belt, Caylor Atkins, a legend in his own right, who told me this story. At the time, neither Oshima nor Caylor had ever heard of Bruce Lee, nor had just about anyone else in the auditorium. Only Ed Parker knew of Bruce's economy of motion, speed, and power that were so incredibly unbelievable. Oshima and Atkins were standing in the center of the room when Oshima's eyes fastened on a handsome young man. As Bruce walked past, Oshima pointed his finger and said, "That one.. He is the only one here who can do anything"! Without having before ever seen Bruce Lee, Oshima was able to sense the young man’s ability simply by the way he carried his body. My friends, this was in 1964. Jeet Kune Do, as such, had not yet been invented.



RF-

[Rafael]

Shortly before Bruce has left Hong Kong, he and Hawkins went to train with an old man who had mastered a number of gung fu styles. Although Bruce was only nineteen when he left Hong Kong he had already developed himself as a martial artist and a fighter. In Seattle, he would go on to train with an old man who had belonged to a Chinese ballet troupe (gung fu) and, who would take on all challengers whenever the troupe had entered a new town. The old man, among his other skills, was a Master of Red Boat Wing Chun. Bruce was already quite extraordinary. At 135 lbs., he could easily handle a 225 lb., U.S. Army Heavy Weight Boxing Champion/street fighter, not to mention the other four boxers in the original Seattle group, and the three judoka, one of which was a U.S. Judo Champion, Charlie Woo.

However, it was not Bruce the fighter that I feel is so much underestimated, rather Bruce the martial artist. Bruce has been underestimated because the level of his knowledge has been underestimated. Whatever people think JKD is all about, I can assure them that Bruce had his personal JKD that consisted of a lot more than strong side forward, straight lead, straight blast, some footwork, kicking, timing, etc. A lot more, indeed! In the Tao of Jeet Kune Do, page 24, is one of my favorite sentences: “It is not difficult to trim and hack off the non-essentials in outward physical structure; however, to shun away, to minimize inwardly is another matter. “Inwardly,” wrote Bruce. For a great deal of his personal training was to dig deep within himself. It was not technique that mattered, but how the tools, themselves, worked in relation to the body’s structure. To dig this deep he had to feel, explore, and analyze. He had to turn his study within to best learn how to maximize forces without resorting to using muscular strength. He taught himself how to use the short arcs of the joints, tendons, and bones for maximizing power. He eliminated intention in his initial movement, because with it he would not be as fast. He eliminated choice reaction, because it not only hamper his speed, but sacrificed the all-important beat in his timing. Instead, he would make his opponent make the choices. This was the foundation for what he called his “Fistic Law,” a worthwhile study unto itself. Bruce had gone within to study how to eliminate tension. Tension at the wrong time could become a dangerous tool for the opponent to use against you. A tense arm, shoulder, or body could act like a handle on a t-cup, giving the opponent a tool to disrupt you. Bruce’s way was to not create a handle within himself, but instead create the tool in his opponent.

How often have I heard knowledgeable martial artists and even kinesologists attribute Bruce Lee’s amazing speed to having superior genetics, claiming that he must have been born rich with the right kind of muscle fibres. The reality is that nothing could be further from the truth. To be sure, Bruce Lee was faster than thought. Aside from the fact that he was in a trained state of physical condition, his lightning speed was not the result of the proportion of genetically prescribed, different types of muscle fibers. Rather, his speed was the direct result of unique martial principles and mechanics, heightened by his own internal discoveries. In the scene with the young monk in Enter the Dragon, Bruce slaps him on the forehead, telling him to feel or he will miss all of that heavenly glory. Hawkins Cheung likes to call Bruce, "The fastest gun fighter". Before Bruce came to the U.S. he was already greased lightning. Consider that there are four kinds of speed: start speed, body speed, hand speed, and reaction speed. Bruce's greatest speed was his start speed. Incredibly, it is the start speed where others are slow. Start speed is how fast can you move from zero. In Enter the Dragon Bruce demonstrates his start speed in the scene with O'hara (Bob Wall). The editor who cut the film watched the scene over and over again and was not able to detect the beginning of Bruce's movement. It was as though Bruce had finished without ever having started. He was just there! Bruce had fast hands and fast reaction speed, but not the fastest by his own estimation. His fast hands were once again the result of proper principles and mechanics, while his reaction speed was largely based on his ability to read his opponent's intention. Joe Lewis has said that Bruce was the fastest man that ever stood before him. After over 41 years in martial arts, I attest to the same.

Shortly before Bruce's death, Bruce and his old friend, Hawkins were able to spend some time together. Of course, every second was dedicated to their love of fighting. As he had done before, Bruce updated Hawkins on his own development. Finally, Hawkins asked him exactly what was JKD? Bruce smiled and said, "Pak sao and hip". Pak sao and hip! That was Bruce's own definition of Jeet Kune Do to his close friend and long time training partner, speaking in Cantonese, and at a mutually very high level that few could arise to, or even begin to understand.


RF

[Rafael]

So then, what is pak sao? Translated, pak sao means "slapping hand". However, pak doesn't really slap, at all. In reality, the technique of pak sao involves a great deal of information learned by close attention to details. Be sure, pak and slap do not share the same energies, nor even the same results. You may execute a slap, but not Bruce. His was pak! Nevertheless, pak sao has still another meaning in wing chun. It's in the nature of the meaning whereby Bruce spoke when he defined Jeet Kune Do as, "pak sao and hip". Pak sao's nature is to intercept. Thus, the name Jeet Kune Do, The Way of the Intercepting Fist. Actually, there are only three ways to intercept. Ahead of the opponent's beat, at the same time as his beat, or behind his beat. We call this a half-beat ahead, same beat, or half- beat behind. To go a half-beat ahead is to go at his intention, before he actually fires his muscles. In pak sao it means to cut off his movement. It means to SHUT HIM DOWN! Translated, Jeet also means "to cut off". This cutting off was Bruce Lee's #1 specialty. Bruce could shut you down before you could go. You couldn't start because he already hit at the very instant you intended to start. To go at the same beat as your opponent is to start at the same time. The interception takes place in the area generally half-way between you and the opponent, a little ahead or behind depending on the speed differences between you. This is a good time to avoid, intersect, jam, dissolve, disrupt. To go a half-beat behind is good for slipping, countering, and going to a takedown. All are within the concept of pak sao. The Five Ways of Attack are based on these three timings. To go between the beats is to go behind one beat and head of the other. Bruce said, "pak sao and hip". So what exactly did he mean by hip? It is the action of the hip and all mechanics that effect it based on a unique set of principles learned and studied in Wing Chun. People have said that Bruce Lee abandoned his Wing Chun. They say this simply because they are not able to see the Wing Chun inside his Jeet Kune Do. Nevertheless, the Wing Chun is there. And, it could be felt! Bruce's Wing Chun was in its principles and mechanics that were at the beginning and in the final end of his punch, kick, trap, jam, or whatever. It was the way his body worked as a unit, externally and internally. It was at the very core of all that he did. It is how he hit so fast, so hard. It was why he could shut down and overpower bigger and stronger men with relative ease. It was why his traps worked when so many others claim that trapping does not work. Ask James DeMille, the heavy weight boxer whether or not Bruce’s trapping worked. You may have all seen the photograph of Bruce doing an isometric exercise on the Smith machine where it appears that he was strengthening his forearms and biceps. In actuality, Bruce was training the structure of his hip. It was because of this structure of the hip that he could raise huge dumbbells straight out in front of him like no weightlifter could possibly dream of doing. Bruce modified his Wing Chun stance to the Jun Fan stance, and then to the Jeet Kune Do stance, yet all shared the same hip structure for applying huge forces with minimal effort, and with only the slightest adjustments. For the JKD'r who has not trained the hip structure, he can never hope to achieve the same efficiency rating as did Bruce, when using his methodology.

Bruce's start speed came from “Non-intention,” as he called it. Non-intention is NOT the same as non-telegraph. I am always amazed at how Bruce came to figure out non-intention whose origin came from Wing Chun. However, Bruce took Non-intention to another level. Bruce would often demonstrate incredible feats of strength, power, and speed based on nothing more than mere mechanical advantages. So incredible were the performances that onlookers could only doubt their authenticity. The truth is that these extraordinary feats can be performed by almost anyone, aside from two finger pushups and some his abdominal feats, but those too with practice.

At the core of Bruce's art, is what I refer to as his inner game. This is the part that you don’t see, but it’s the part that makes everything work as well as it does. It involves, among other things, how structure can work in two separate modes, independently or together. The first mode is the Physical Structure, the hip and tools. Second is what I call the Vital Structure. It is when the Physical Structure is compromised that the Vital Structure must take over.

Bruce researched every avenue for improving himself. He also had the faculty to explore his own kinesthetic awareness. In other words, he took the time to feel and analyze what he felt. He not only looked to the outside, but he dared look to the inside where he reached not only for answers, but for the very questions, themselves. And what came out of all of this was truly stunning. Bruce had developed more than a martial art. He developed extraordinary means and certainties by which an average person could aspire to and reach a true level of mastery. One last thing, to learn to get to his personal truth, Bruce did not have to compete in the ring. He did it on rooftops and in the street.


You can find more articles by Patrick Strong and corejkd members and affilates at CHIHAND MARTIAL ARTS - An Affiliate of 'Little Dragons Alliance.'
Website/Discussion Forum - http://chihand.com


RF

[

[Phil Redmond]

Is there any particular reason that you seem to mention Hawkins Cheung and never William Cheung in regards to Bruce Lee?
Jesse Glover wrote in all of his books that Bruce Lee considered "Ah Hing", Cheung Cheuk Hing, (William Cheung) as the great Wing Chun fighter>



Jesse Glover mentions several times that Bruce Lee greatly looked up to the fighting skills of "Ah Hing"!
Phil

P.S. When I get time I'll post some letters written to Cheung Sifu from Bruce.

[stumpydee]

Hi Phil,

The above article was written by Patrick Strong, who trains with Hawkins, that is why he doesn't mention William Cheung.

Phil i would love to see some of the letters you have to post.

Damian

[Rafael]

Please read the posts carfully . Again I did not write it as stumpty wrote. It was an article written by first generation student of Bruce Lee Patrick Stong.

RF

[Phil Redmond]

Hi,
Guilty as charged.
I seem to storm through posts. I'll READ more carefully from now on.
Phil

[Rafael]

I used to do the same things. Just read the posts a couple of times.

As a gung fu brother I urge you not to be so impulsive. See this with your head not your heart. I can relate myself as at times I have jumped the gun .

Thank you ,

RF-

[LEGEND]

Not to start a flame war...but Bruce has talked to Jessie Glover as WONG SHUN LEUNG as the best of the rooftop fighters...coming in second WILLIAM CHEUNG. I think it was an age thang! Bruce Lee does have a fondness for WILLIAM CHEUNG since both WONG and WILLIAM helped BRUCE and HAWKINs on their wing chun studies.

[Phil Redmond]

Sorry guy. But I have seen a Jesse Glover book where he mentions "Ah Hing" as Bruce Lee's favorite fighter. I just had this disscusion on another forum. The forum moderator had all Of Jesse Glover's books. He wrote:

Hello!

I have all three of Jesse's books, and you are correct Phil! Jesse mentions several times that Bruce Lee greatly looked up to the fighting skills of "Ah Hing"! In fact, I remember the books saying that it was Ah Hing that Bruce Lee respected as being a great wing chun fighter!


__________________
Keep Blasting!
Sifu Lamar M. Davis II
Certified Full Instructor
JUN FAN GUNG FU/JEET KUNE DO
http://www.HardcoreJKD.com
Sifu@HardcoreJKD.com


Also check this out
http://members.tripod.com/~Wing_Chun/

"In 1957 another early student of Yip Man’s, William Cheung, immigrated to Australia. On the way there an incident occurred when he locked himself in the sailor’s cabin and fought more than 10 sailors. This got into all the newspapers and so Wing Chun was even known in Australia then. About a year later, Bruce Lee left for the United States.
I guess the HK newspapers are not a reliable enough source for you. Plus, I heard about this incident from Duncan Leung's own mouth. when I re-introduced them to each other in 1984. Duncan Leung was on the ship when the fight occured and witnessed it.
I'd think that an 18 year old kid fighting 10 or more grown men while a knife is stuck in his back has to have a little fighting skill. Ya think?
That's why Bruce Lee idolized William Cheung.
PR
I have personally heard more than one WC sifu say that to ME regarding William Cheung's WC,


On another Forum this was written'
Actually it is true. Ip Chun not to long ago released a statement saying that Yip Man did indeed teach William Cheung a different version of wing chun. He was told this by his father long ago. But Ip Chun says that he thinks that William's version was the "modified" version. He also says that he finds alot of teachniques that William does better than the way he was taught.

Please research before you type.
PR

[LEGEND]

i retrieve this article from the falling website...
http://www.wingchun.org/text/misc/words.html
Please let me know what u think...also I can tell u're aggravated...no need to be with me...I have trained previously with Sifu Julian Sawyer in B More, MD under Traditional Wing Chun...some I'm well aware of Grandmaster William Cheung history etc...although I no longer practice wing chun I do have respect for Sifu Sawyer. The full article is on the website...


Wong Shun Leung: the legend behind the legend
Recalling the life of Bruce Leeâs teacher, by David Peterson


It could be rightly said the resulting victory changed the course of Bruce Leeâs life, certainly it heralded the beginnings of the training regime that would see him become the martial arts superstar the world was to discover many years later. It is reported Grandmaster Yip Man, on learning what had transpired, took Wong aside and said, "Fortunately you accompanied him to the venue and encouraged him to go on with the match. This trial of martial skill may well be a decisive influence on him in the future. If someday Siu Lung [Bruce] succeeds, the credit should rightfully go to you." In writing about this period in Leeâs life, Jesse Glover (his first American student) stated, "Wong was four years senior (in training) to Bruce in Yip Manâs clan and Bruce studied privately for a year and a half under both him and Yip Man." Glover also wrote that Wong was "the man most responsible for the development of Bruce Lee," and that "In Î59 Bruce told me that Wong was the greatest fighter in the Wing Chun style, and that he had successfully defeated all challengers."

[LEGEND]

:)

[fa_jing]

Look, there's no question that both W. Cheung and W.S. Lueng taught Bruce, and that he used to roll around HK with Hawkins and William and start sh!t. I feel that people will mention whoever they feel like depending on politics, and the big controversy over W. Chueng's claims. People outside of W.Chueng's organization constantly leave him out when talking about the greats. On many Wing Chun websites you cannot find his name, even though he was a senior student of Yip Man and a reknowned fighter. BTW, has it ever been proven that GM William Chueng actually lived w/Yip Man for a few years as he claims? He is never mentioned as a closed-door student by the others.

Also BTW, I thought it was a good observation by Mr. Redmond a while back that the effectiveness of the art is more important than the story behind it.

-FJ

[LEGEND]

fa jing...there's no doubt that Hawkin Cheung, William Cheung, Wong Shun Leung and Yip Man have all taught Bruce Lee wing chun. The only thing I'm disbuting is what William Cheung org. states that Bruce said that William Cheung was the Ultimate fighter. Having gone to seminars with Dan Insonto and Ted Wong...I have brought up the question...and both said that BRUCE felt that HE was the ULTIMATE FIGHTER...lol...giving Bruce Lee ego and confidence no doubt. But in terms of answering questions...Bruce has told several of his students that he "felt" WONG SHUN LEUNG was the best wing chun man...JESSIE GLOVER was the best JUN FAN student during the Seattle Years...and JOE LEWIS was his best fighter PERIOD! Given Joe Lewis frame...powerlifting strength...and psycho personality...no doubt Bruce considered this heavy weight one of the cream of the crop.

[fa_jing]

My Sifu is a student of Ted Wong, BTW.
Cheers
-FJ

[sunstylin]

Did Bruce ever make it past the Chum kiu and a little wooden dummy?

[LEGEND]

Still waiting for sifu redmond reply??