Help me choose an art!!!

[LittleChina]

Message to All,


Hi I'm new to the board and I'm currently seeking advice on what MA's I should consider studying.

Background info:

I'm 17 and I live in Flushing, NYC. It's tough being a kid in NYC and especially with the people I involve myself with. Anyway I know how it feels to get into fights and such. One of the obvious reasons for me to learn a MA is purely fighting or "self-defense," whatever you want to call it. I don't go around looking for fights but a lot of *sh!t* happens around here.
Also I want to get into shape and I find MA's really interesting. I don't do crap in school or anything acedemic so I guess I should do something atleast half productive with my time other than shooting pool and stuff.

Styles I was looking into:

#1 style I thought of was Krav Maga. Yeah its really not a style but its supposedly works in the street.
#2 as I was reading more into MA's I discovered Aikido. I thought well its not really going to anything for me but I read some books and it looked interesting. I went to a intro workshop and I seem to like it a lot. How cool would it be to break someone's wrist as they fall and break their butt on the concrete (sorr thats the teenager in me talking).
#3 I figured I needed some striking or offensive to compliment so I looked into kicking boxing. San shou and Muay Thai look pretty **** good.
#4 I was also looking into some BJJ or traditional Jui Jitsu.
#5 Then I went on and discovered the world of Kung Fu (yeah im chinese). My uncle used to be a pretty avid MAist and he started with Wing Chun. It seems like a possibility aswell.

School Options:

Krav Maga - There is a school held in Manhattan for that. It looks pretty decent but I have yet to go to a intro class.
Aikido - Plenty of places around me. I particularly like Bond St. Dojo which I went to check out a couple weeks ago.
Kickboxing - Another style that has many schools in my area. I talked to a guy from a place that teaches San Shou. Looks pretty good, i like the grappling along with the striking, looks pretty complete.
BJJ - Renzo Gracie has a academy in Manhattan. I don't know how good it is though since i figure he is always training for the MMA and grappling events.
Kung Fu - There is a Shaolin Temple in Flushing that teaches Kung Fu. Songshan temple I think. Well it has got to be pretty respectable, its a freakin' Shaolin temple!!! Guoshin Lin is the monk's name???? hes pretty well known from what I hear. Theres also a Wing Chun school run by Alan Lee??? I heard its pretty good also. I was looking into Shiao Jiao Kung Fu, but no where in NYC that I know of teaches that art.

Conclusion:

Well there are a lot of questions floating through my mind right now. Is it wise to cross train with different arts. I know some people say stick with ones, others feel it doesn't hurt to expand knowledge. I want to be a complete fighter, I am willing to deticate the time and the work into training. Another question I have is what will be the most effective in the street? I get into a lot of 1 v 1 situations. Yeah just walk away yada yada yada, not so simple where I live.

I tried to put together my thoughts in a semi-coherrent manner with the limited time I have to post this message. Its probably really confusing, sorry trying to put my thoughts down as I think them up. Anyway... anyone who has any good advice for me please post or e-mail me at GrdStorm11@aol.com

Also if you live in NYC and know specifically any good info about schools and such please let me know!!!


Thanks,

Adam

[Black Jack]

My advice, go with the Krav Maga, but as always make sure the teacher and the school is a fit for you.

Cheers,

[Richie]

Go with kung fu. There are many different types and styles to choose from.

[greendragon]

Little China, the choice seems clear to me. Shaolin. it is perfect for your age group. do not worry about cross training until black belt level. Aikido is excellent but progress there may seem slower to you. Shaolin has suai jiao and chin na (cool wrist breaks). Try it first. Maybe get a friend to join with you.

[KungFuGuy!]

Some say that "monk" is a fake that teaches shaolin kung fu, and others say he is a fake that actually teaches Wushu and calls it shaolin kung fu. Either way, from what I saw on TV he knows his sh!t, and training with him would definately be something I'd look into.

[straight blast]

Wing Chun is good. ;)

But I'm biased :D

[KnightSabre]

BJJ is good,

But then I'm biased too :)

[Former castleva]

Hello LittleChina.
Welcome to the boat.
I´ll start by checking your post out,and making my own conclusions of what would be good.

It seems you do have many choises around,which can be beneficial.
Krav Maga:Straightforward,"no-nonsense" art.Highly based on self-defense.Meant to teach you effective and simple way of defending as quickly as possible.I´ve heard lots of good stuff about it.It is very likely that you´d find it interesting.
Aikido:Having some training,I personally like this art.
It is a complex art and not necessarily easy to learn.
It is one of the more spiritual arts,based on technique vs brute strength,and is highly peaceful art,"goal" being to solve conflicts with love.it is noted at times that it takes generally more time to become practical in it.Emphasis is often placed more on other things than self-defense.
Striking arts (kickboxing,sanshou,muay thai) :Classic striking/kicking combat sports.In theory,easier to put to life due to their relatively linear approach.Also remembering that kickboxing is a sport,for ring.Muay thai,also being part sport,is slightly more martial art,and I´ve got the idea that it´s effective.
BJJ:I don´t know much,but it seems to be loved,possibly because of the charisma and competition succes of Gracies.
Grappling art,groundfighting is a big thing for them.
Jujitsu/jujutsu:Art does have a lot to give in the name of self-protection."Complete" art which seems to have something for many areas of combat.
sidenote:Jujitsu had a heavy influence on aikido.
Kung-fu:A large subject.
Wing chun is largely recognized and respected art.
And then the temple...Go for it.If possible,reaching your uncle could help too.

That´s it about those styles.
You may go out try those styles&schools out,which is possibly the best way to see what really suits you.
You might want to talk to the teachers,maybe try out a class or two,check out their background etc.
BTW,If you are interested in learning how to fight or in other words,protect yourself,you don´t have to study martial arts.
You can as well study plain self-defense (go to courses,seminars etc.)
Martial arts do have a lot more to it than self-protection,if you are not interested in health benefits,spiritual growth etc. that could take away excessive energy of yours.
Not to mention those martial sports or self-defense styles we previously talked about,so think about it carefully.
Here´s this for now.
Don´t be afraid to ask for more,or search more.

Good luck.
:)

[Mr Punch]

Check out the teacher. If you like the teacher in the places near you then choose the art.

Think about why you want to do it. Fitness (part-timer!), spiritualism (hippy!), SD (pu**y!), kicking ass (psycho!), looking good (pretty boy!) or other (probably the right reason).

Then choose wing chun or aikido. Or something with big swords.

[Gabriel]

that temple in flushing is one of the official Shaolin offshoots, its posted at Russbo.com.. I tried to get more info but that portion of the site is down right now. I would definately consider Shaolin, at least give it a try.

[Chang Style Novice]

I recommend stone sculpture. Moving blocks of marble or granite is great conditioning, and hammer/chisel and rattail file are subtle yet incredibly dangerous weapons.

Then do some shuai chiao.

[12345]

Do it the traditional way - go to each school in turn and tell the instructor you are here to close down his school - then choose the one that gives you the biggest kicking and knock on his door each night until he accepts you as a disciple.

If you don't fancy that you might try asking if you can watch a lesson of each and when you've done that you'll be ready to start at the wing chun school in the knowledge that there is nothing else better available locally :D

[No_Know]

Aikido will help you handle agressors and stand the best chance of getting least hurt, sooner that the rest of the arts you mentioned.~ My say.

[ewallace]

Well, if you are seeking to learn to defend yourself and real quick-like, go with Krav Maga. I went to the seminar right before classes started at the KM center here and it was a hell of a workout. My shirt was completely drenched and salt-stained at the end. They brought out the kick sheilds and focus mits after about 20 minutes. They had you throwing punches, kicks, elbows and knees in the first hour, something that is very very rare in any kind of traditional school. It was a very very different experience and I think that some others on this board are too quick to dismiss KM as a legitimate art, simply because they don't understand it.

[Rolling Elbow]

Aikido will get you punched in the face over and over and over....outside of japan hardcore aikido, don't trust some pot bellied aged hippy to teach you to pack a fight'! Want it quick? Go take Krav Maga or kick boxing.., want more of a challenge, take a chinese style that isn't taught in a McDojo, want to get sweaty and wrestle for submission, take BJJ.

Do you like kicking? punching? trapping?

I like hands, traps, limb destructions and brutal bone jarring throws- so i take taijutsu. Think about what you want and then take anything that fits it. (except TKD!)

[dragontounge2]

what the hell are you talking about Krav maga is a bunch dirty shyt. Some thing simple and effective is sambo! Hell karate is better than krav maga. Check out www.kravmaga.com and look in the interactive section and look at thos BS videos some body with minimal training can counter that crap. Well I might be judging to quick but from what I saw those videos WERE a bunch of nonsense and if some poor sob tried it on the street he will get his brains scattered all over the pavement. Wing chun, shaolin, or muy thai. some body tell me if im wrong

[dragontounge2]

The only good move is the choke from the front. I recommend bruce lees book of self defense techniques most techniques are very good.

[LiteBlu]

Don't pick a style. Check them all out and go to the one with the best teacher.

[ewallace]

Hell karate is better than krav maga
Yeah, you don't know what the hell you are talking about. If your impression was from a video then you most likely got the wrong impression.

If you want to get up QUICK on self defense it is very good, efficient and to the point.

I would take it if I could afford the classes, but I can't right now. And I don't feel that I need to get up to speed on self defense quickly.

[No_Know]

Aikido teaces how to move off center and shifting turns. Buys one time~ to strike and get to objects to threaten or use other ways.

The strike based stuff takes time to learn power and targets and power to do damage and endurance for executing the techniques. Good stuff for fun. But for save yourself, learn to run/move first.


A taijutsu person should understand the significance of movement to surviving a fight. Unless you don't understand what you are doing-ish. While your stomp kick might be good you might be better if you could incorporate movement. Taijutsu--Body displacement. So it doesn't seem as though you should not advise taking Aikido ((hopefully the Art will come through the instructor, contrary perhaps to your experiences).

[Rolling Elbow]

No Know...what the hell are you talking about? :) Movement is key to taijutsu..i know how to move. But i also know how to hit, throw, break, stomp, etc....that is the point, in western aikido they DO NOT. They dance.....practice dancing and you are a good dancer. that's the bottom line. you can walk into an aikido dojo here where the teacher has only taken aikido and throw a jab- cross to lay him out. Don't get started on i should understand this or that.. We practice aikido type flow (with variation obviously)and know that its nice to talk concept but entirely different to face a knuckle sandwhich without anything but a defense against a downward attack or a light sleave grab. Aikido locks and movement are nice IF pulled off...most people don't hang on, allot of people will smother or ground you. I've really tried to find good tough aikido in what is taught around these parts....unfortunately, i see allot of people mislead.

p.s- you can oly move soo much before you are a sitting duck and there is nothing wrong with a stomp kick once you've moved to be able to lay it in!

[Black Jack]

I am with rolling elbow, I would not tell my worst enemy to take Aikido for self defense, well maybe my worst enemy, and I would never tell a total beginner looking for quick self defense to check out Aikido.

If you are going to look into joint locking arts, look at the one that Aikido came from, Daito-Ryu Aiki JuJitsu.

Krav Maga has a few different branches in the US but the WWII stuff that comes down from Imi Lichtenfeld is simple, brutal and quick to the point, the exact critera you wanted in your opening question.

From what I have seen of Krav Maga is excellent, though make SURE the material is the one taught and used by Imi Lichtenfeld, the one which is taught to the IDF, Israeli Police and Security Services. Imi Lichtenfeld had a amazing background, he was born in Czechoslovakia, his father was a circus acrobat and wrestler, and later a chief detective inspector of the police.

Imi inherited his fathers passion for combative sports and he took up wrestling and boxing with competitive success, when fascism preceding WWII came around he found himself engaged in the realities of street survival, often in defense of Jews against gangs.

From those experiances he came to understand the nature of actual combat as opposed to competitive combat sport and it was this knowledge that he took with him to Israel when he emigrated there.

Once in Israel, Lichtenfeld joined the Hahanah, the precursor to the IDF, and was put to task instructing new recruits in unarmed close combat, his job was to transfer totally serious fighting skills to a mixed bag of soliders of various ages and fitness levels, the result Krav Maga.

Krav Maga like other good war-time combat based systems, had nothing extraneous in its training program, there was no time nor need, in its training programme it quickly gave an individual a practical body of unarmed combat skills through a realistic period of instruction.

Lichtenfeld went on to become the cheif instructor for the Military School for Physical Training and Krav Maga of the IDF, a position he held for over 20 years. Which means from the humblest infantryman to Israel's battle tested special forces, all IDF soliders benefit from Krav Maga training.

Just make sure its the direct Lichtenfeld sylabus.

[Gabriel]

Oh, if ur interested I got to where it was posted on Russbo.

heres the site, if ya don't want to walk there and check it out. :)

Amituofo :) (http://shaolin-overseas.org)

G.

[greendragon]

I like the advice on picking the teacher more than the style. It would be interesting if you reported back to this forum and told us your impressions.

[Jowbacca]

I am really trying to lay low since i realized what a big, uneducated mouth i used to (still) have; but i really gotta say i'm surprised at some of the answers. makes me wonder how many actual kung fu folks actually post on here.

NYC is a kung fu mecca, probly second only to the Golden Mountain aka San Francisco.

I can't believe how few schools are actually being mentioned in this thread.

Flushing's Queens right? There's a branch of Yee's Hung Ga right around the corner. I think you can access the website at www.yeeshungga.com (but if that don't work, just search on google).

That would be my first recommendation; but New York has so MUCH! Tony Yang, Carl Albright, northern praying mantis, southern praying mantis, hung gar, bagua, baji, hsing yi, taiji, bak mei, choy lay fut, hop ga (tibetan white crane), hung fut.....all a short walk, subway ride, or train ride away!

I know you're still new, but don't get so set on the monks. Visiting all the sifus is a good idea. So is waiting to check out a tournament; where you can see a bunch of the styles in action.

Good luck!

(now it's time to burrow back into my hole)

[ewallace]

You are correct. I would give my left nut for the cma that nyc has to offer. However, the majority of cma styles take a while for one to become an effective fighter. I'm sorry but if someone wants to learn to fight and doesn't have much time to become effective then MOST cma are not the best option...IMO.

[Jowbacca]

Argh.... 3 posts in one day.... can't...resist...the....temptation....

I am not really qualified to speak on this, or qualified to give my opinion on anything for that matter....but i think it's all in how you train.

I think it was Tim Cartmell who had some video clips on his site of what he was able to do with 6 months worth of training in hsing yi (correct me if I'm wrong, sorry to whoever it was). Shooter's another guy who's produced a decent (if not good) fighter in a short period of time with video evidence.

In my own, novice guess-timation, I think if the sifu really stressed lots of development of some easy to use tools/basics, introduced contact early, and simplified the kung fu style's strategy for a newbie in the ring, that newbie could be a pretty decent ring fighter pretty quickly.

You hear stories of "old fashioned" schools where students were "limited" to stances, 2 man drills, lots of basics work with simple strikes, as well as some fighting- for months on end, sometimes years. Yet these same schools produced good fighters.

I read a quote from a kfo member that really interested me. He said in the old days kung fu wasn't about getting that next form. I also really agree with nospam's thread on forms being the bane of modern kung fu. Of course there are benefits for forms, I'm just using the scenario of a lot of students' "race to finish all the forms" as one possible reason for the long "gestation" period of kung fu fighters' fighting ability.

I have no experience to speak from, but I really recommend reading posts from guys like nospam, subitai, bean curd, df, je lei sifu, illusionfist, straight blast, clfnole, lawclansman, count, shooter, and a few others... as these folks really seem to have some skill & know how to use what they got- at least what i can tell from their posts.

ewallace, interesting that you live in San Antonio. My folks live there and I was there for about 6 months while i was waiting on a job. Mighta been fun to hang out.

I'm probly going to regret this as it is....
last one for sure...

[ewallace]

No need to regret it, it was a good post.

Of course it always depends on the teacher, just as much as the fighter depends on the fighter, not the style. My opinions stated above were a generalization.

[Le nOObi]

Originally posted by LiteBlu
Don't pick a style. Check them all out and go to the one with the best teacher.

Best advice in the thread!

[NYerRoman]

Hey LittleChina,

In my opinion, stick with kung fu. It will curb your concerns of street fighting as well.

There's a Shaolin temple in Flushing run by Shi Guolin on:
131-11 41st Avenue
tel. 718-539-0872

Call the school and talk to them. Your learning will go beyond.

Good luck.

[DelicateSound]

*WARNING: Generalisation below.*


If you have a limited timespan, Kung Fu would not be a good option, as it's movements usually take longer to develop especially something internal like XingYi.

As for Wing Chun, that's simple and direct, a good choice, but make sure you're aware of grappling, boxing and development of EXTERNAL power.

Krav Maga and Mhuy Thai will probably make you a better fighter faster than the others there, just through the effectiveness of the basic moves. If you can afford to train long term I'd advise a style of Kung Fu.

Leave Aikido alone.




Most importantly see each style and school personally. Pick the one that feels best in terms of movements, routines, teacher, fellow students, location etc.

You'll be there for a long time probably - pick a good 'un :)

[No_Know]

Do you hit, throw, stomp, etc. as good without moving? This person seems new and while you might need more than moving, stalling beats how well a beginner might use early techniques in much of what was mentioned, in an unfriendly fight.. LittleChina would have natural fighting if it came to it. But movement wouldn't come as favorablly. You practice Aikido like flow. And after you Move to lay it in is O.K. But could you lay it in as good without moving? I recommended that LittleChina learn moving first and you say what am I talking about? You indicate that Aikido is like dancing, where you are. And you've been disappointed with Aikido. LittleChina has direction in training. Many who go to the any old Aikido school, don't know what to expect-ish or would like and go with the flow. LittleChina would like to be able to fight and would theoretcally use even dancing to an advantage if caught in a fight.

The locks and grabs are not likely to work out for LittleChina at this place but it would be practice in getting hands-up and intercepting incomming. And Aikido people, even the dancers get used to contact and people coming towards them.

[anton]

I would have to agree to a great extent with what someone said about choosing a teacher rather than a system, but assuming that there are top quality teachers in every system I would give the following advice:

If you're interested in learning to defend yourself quickly, but not go to deeply in to a martial art, I'd recommend Sambo or Muay Thai or Krav Maga (in that or der of preference).

When you believe you're ready to jump into the bottomless pit that is CMA, I'd start with Wing Chun and move on to find a CMA that suits your character/fighting style - It is by no means a 'simple' art but it seems easy to "get into" (can't think of a better way to put this right now).

BJJ and Aikido are excellent arts in themselves, but a lot of people (myself included) find that its not for them. Personally, I needed something more direct and aggressive (a striking art). Having said that, I'd still recommend learning some BJJ, at some stage in your life. It is important to know how to handle yourself on the ground. Aikido skills (throws, jointlocks) are also very useful to know.

Make sure to inform us of what system you decide to take up, when you make the decision.

Good Luck!!

[LiteBlu]

Le Noobi is correct about me being correct.

[Shaolindynasty]

I'd reccomend shopping around more butit can be hard to find a good school for a complete begginner. if you are interested in CMA then training with Shi Goulin isn't a bad idea, if nothing else it will give you a solid foundation for later styles. NYC is so rich with CMA you are sure to find somthing.

[dre]

If you live in the city, you can pretty much learn any style that you want. Youre list is just the beggining.

Anything, from Aikido to Savate.

I envy you!!!

Now go enjoy the MA smorgasboard. GO!

[LittleChina]

CMAs in NYC are tricky though. Most of these guys that teach are full of crap.

Well I'm going to check out SiFi Allan Lee's school in Flushing. I've heard good things about them and as one of the only *Duncan Leung* related teachers in NYC I think its something I should consider.

[dre]

No, it's jsut that there are lots and lots of closed-door establishments there. Theres good stuff, you just have to look for it.

[LittleChina]

Well this is how i see it.

Compred to the Japanese Arts, Kung Fu arts are not very organized... as in no one really knows who was taught by who and who really knows what.

For example, there are a whole bunch of Wing Chun schools in NYC but 95% are taught by incompetent.

Japanese Arts on the other hand, most dojos can say that their Sensei's were taught by or certified by the head of the art (ex. Aikikai Organization).



P.S. I heard some good things about Daito Ryu JuJitsu but it seems that no schools around here in NYC.

Renzo Gracie teaches BJJ in the city at his acedemy but I have a feeling he charges like an arm and a leg to train with him.

[HuangKaiVun]

Even in a bad school, a GREAT martial artist can develop.

If one regularly tests his moves out in the appropriate way and QUESTIONS his techniques, he's going to get a lot out of the training.

I've seen so many guys who study formally at great schools (not just in kung fu) who don't get the most out of their training. And I've seen just as many guys that never did who DO.

Whatever school one goes to, he should seek to apply his techniques against resisting opponents (or at least test the style in the proper manner). That's how one figures out what works and what doesn't on an INDIVIDUAL basis.

Just because Grandmaster X says a technique works for everyone in history doesn't necessarily mean it'll work for you. That's for you, the student, to find out.

[anton]

You raise a good point - It is important to check the lineage of the sifu at any school you're considering training at. If the guy has a solid lineage, he will probably be happy to talk openly about it, and it will probably be easier to check up.

PS - oh yeah I forgot to say in my previous post: Choy Lay Fut rules!! Give it a look if you get the chance :D

[LittleChina]

Chow Lay Fut - Can anyone give me a summary of the art? I heard about it being one of the more popular CMAs.

[JusticeZero]

For those who badmouth Aikido:

Sometimes, one encounters an Aikido teacher who has examined other arts and trains well who can lay a brawler, a boxer, or other person you claim Aikidokas are 'helpless against' out with ease, and who can teach their students to do likewise. A lot of teachers can't. Better to do research on the specific teacher than to gripe about the art.

[dre]

I'm not going to argue with you - it's a city of 8 million people. Whatever art you want, you can have it, and at a good school.

So go look, not just in books (yellow pages, phonebooks) , becuase these are the LEAST likely places to find a good school , but talk to people you know, or ask around places you go, for a good school. If you know any martial artists, I'd ask them stright off, thye know what's good and what's cr@p.

If you want a kung fu teacher , go to chinatown. No need to look in the yellow pages, ask around! They may not let you in, or they might. It's worth a try. No doubt that you will be interviewed before hand (wether or not you know it) so be on your best behavior.

Japanese arts are often "organized" in the same way that WTF Tae kwon do is "organized" gigantic sport organizations. So a certificate is meaningless.

[anton]

Often called Choy Lee Fut or Choy Li Fut.It is as you said one of the most popular external Chinese systems.
Although there are currently several schools of thought on the system's early history (let's keep it at that fellas :) - LittleChina if you're really interested in the disagreement just have a look around the Southern Styles Forum), it is accepted by all that it has links to the Shaolin temple through the monk Choy Fook. Another point of agreement is the involvement of the famous fighter Lay Yau-Shan.

The system tends to focus on momentum and leverage (hence the often quotes aphorism: "the dynamic art of fighting") rather than the sort of short-range 'explosive' power of wing chun or many forms of karate. Incidentally, some suggest that this fundamental difference in principles is part of the reason for the amount of beef that existed between CLF and WC players in hong kong in the old days.
Like many Southern styles there isn't a great focus on aerial moves or flashy high kicks (although a substantial variety of kicking techniques do exist in the system). The majority of the focus is on its "swinging" hand strikes, grabbing blocks, and solid and fluent footwork. The techniques of CLF require the fighter to use his whole body to generate power (legs, waist, shoulders, arms and in some cases the weight of ones body) rather than just the muscles of the arm.


I guess the above is a very generalistic description of a quite sophisticated martial art, as it was bound to be. SO if you're really interested, ask around and find a good gwoon, and just watch a couple of training sessions.

[scotty1]

Anton is just full of sense. Read his posts again.

[NYerRoman]

Hey LittleChina,

I gave you the number of the Shaolin temple school in Flushing run by Shi Goulin. Kung Fu Magazine has written many articles on him and his school. Go into the archives and look for yourself.

Anyway, I re-read your thread. Something caught my attention. Flushing is no way the hood and it is not so tough growing up in NYC. I'm from Astoria. Flushing is ok. Growing up in NYC gives us an edge. But I think you need to look at your friends you keep and maybe you'll start understanding more your reasons for learning a martial art.

Kung fu gave me confidence and the ability to understand dynamics more in order to avoid fighting. That's the goal. Then when it comes down to it, you're prepared.

Learn MA in a more rounded way. That's why I recommended the Shaolin Temple.

Good luck.

[LittleChina]

NYC is complicated. If youra colored teen (black, hispanic, asian) you know that there are a lot of gangs and crews around. I am Chinese, I have a lot of friends who are involved in gangs and crap like that. Yeah its easy to say "make new friends" but when u live here its not so easy, everywhere u go someone knows your with "so and so." I am not learning Martial Arts for reasons of going out and starting gang fights.

It really is only to fill my time. I've been so into martial arts ever since I was a kid watching MA movies but I never got the chance to learn because I thought I couldn't keep up with it.

Learning to *defend* myself is secondary. Like my uncle says "you can a cultural obligation" (HAHA).


P.S. if I really wanted to learn self defense Id practice jabbing the throat, the ultimate move.

[LittleChina]

NOT TO SAY THAT NYC ISN'T A NICE PLACE TO LIVE!!! BECAUSE IT IS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :)

[HuangKaiVun]

You're a part time martial artist, LittleChina. Nothing wrong with that.

I suggest just getting some books and/or videos and learning from them. This way you can find out for yourself what the real deal is without getting yourself into trouble.

Even if you screw yourself up that way, somebody will set you straight down the line. This is the approach that worked for me, and I needed to do that before I went out and actually trained at schools.


Also, jabbing the throat ISN'T the "ultimate" move.

There really is no such thing as the "ultimate" move. Only "ultimate preparedness".

[LittleChina]

Thats not what I meant, whats the fastest way to end a fight? get the throat. You don't need any martial arts training for that. My point was that I don't need MA training to go beat on someone, bats and lead pipes do that just fine.

Yeah I read about a lot of different MAs, I am very informed but like most books say, theres a big difference between theory, and practice.

Part time MAist? well I guess you could say that, though I do plan to spend atleast 4-5 days out of the week training.

[ewallace]

Based on what you are looking for I'd say to go with a CMA then L.C. Good luck.

[LittleChina]

L.C. ??

[ewallace]

Little China

[HuangKaiVun]

When you actually start training, LittleChina, you'll find out that people actually DEFEND to the throat area and thus your little maneuver is harder to pull off than you realize.

The same goes with bats and lead pipes. You try fighting somebody using those weapons, you better know what you're doing or those weapons will be used against you.

That's why people like me actually train. And thus you have received your first (and possibly most important) lesson in martial arts: people DEFEND THEMSELVES.

[NYerRoman]

LittleChina,

I know I know, but I never said find new friends. Think of the friends you keep. That's what I said. You can't get new friends. I know the gang situation, but studying MA will change your outlook and dynamics. Trust me.

Flushing ain't the south Bronx. Go to the Shaolin Temple. It'll fill you more than you know. The Shaolin traditional style is complete and effective.
HuangKaiVun is right. There are blocks to the throat. And then....?

Fill your time right. Go Yanks. Say hi to NYC for me. QUEENS!

Later

[LittleChina]

yeah I might check out the Shaolin place, but the buddhism thing gives me the creeps...


This is the idea situation to punch someone in the throat...


when you and your opponent or agressor are just exchanging words but u slowly creep up close enough. Both you guys still have your hands down and then, bam. Hit em in the throat. This works most of the time withe element of surprise. Yeah people defend but the common Joe doesn't know how to catch or deflect a pipe. Even if your a MAist, its a known fact that u better be quicker than a stick because aint no way your going to block it without feeling the impact. The impact itself will daze you enough for you to lose concentration and then its all over.

Be realistic, MA gives you great technical knowhow and probably enhances your survival instincts but it sure doesn't turn you into Superman.

[HuangKaiVun]

I change my mind.

Don't bother learning kung fu, LittleChina.

You won't gain anything from it. You are NOT READY.

[SwaiingDragon]

try tae kwon do- its a sport- you'll learn coordination, gain some flexiblitly and won't get seriously hurt-learn some self defense

there alot of good schools in flushing- there are Chinese t.k.d. instructors too-

take 'til you get a 1st degree black belt- then maybe you'll be ready for kung fu- it requires a lot of self discipline-

and by the way- for those of you who don't know flushing is new york's second chinatown- its not what i consider "tough"...

later

[shaolinboxer]

Huang - Not ready? Gimme a break....

Little China - Hey there, I live in Hell's Kitchen and I've been training in New York since 1994 (previously in Philadephia).

I have not trained with Guo Lin, but I have trained with Yan Ming and several of the other "monks". Training there may be a fine place to start, but be careful.

Don't worry to much about style just yet. As New Yorkers we are very fortunate to have the opporunity to study under many qualified masters. Unfortunately, we also have to be wary of cults, frauds, and people with giant egos. Joining a martial arts school is similar to joining a gang in some respects. There is a structure of power, you get hurt (sometimes, which can be good in the long run if in the right measure), and cliques form. Instructors can be very judgemental, and there tend to be social rules.

I see that you enjoyed an aikido class. Aikido is an interesting art. I study with Shin Budo Kai (www.shinbudokai.org), a smaller dojo with many different kinds of martial artists practicing there. Some are more light dancers than fighters, others are extremely powerful and can be intimidating with their easy strength. If you'd like to visit, please do so.

I studied kickboxing, boxing, san shou, shaolin wushu, muay thai, jeet kune do, and wu mui kung fu (sometimes a couple of those at the same time) and they all gave me something of value. I chose aikido now and specifically shin budo kai because over the years I have come to understand what I need from my practice, my environment, and my instructor. It takes time to learn that about yourself and they only way to do that is to go out and try whatever you think might be cool.

Good luck and don't worry.

[LittleChina]

TKD, LOL... unless they r black belt or higher, they are pretty weak. I've fought a lot of guys who said "Yo, I take TKD, don't F with me" and then they get smashed in the face. TKD pepole probably do get real good, but not until u give them 30000000.00 for the belt tests and all that bullcrap. Tae Kwon Do? nah more like Take Your Doe.

Who said I didn't have the discipline to learn a chinese martial art?

Yeah Flushing isn't what you call *tough,* people there don't bother you and crap but a lot of sh!t does go down in Flushing. Yeah Brighton Beach is a nice place too... home of the Russian mob... China Town is a nice place too, home of the Triads. Far Rockaway, nice beaches... ITALIAN MAFIA. Flushing is the same, a lot of Korean and Chinese gangs still around.

[LittleChina]

BTW I am leaning toward Wing Chun or San Shou/Muay Thai

Aikido I will take as well becoz the place I am signing up for only has classes 2twice a week.

[greendragon]

Little China, better have a back-up plan for that throat shot you were talking about. I was in a street fight with a cracked up gang banger, hit him in the throat with a solid sun fist punch, felt it collapse under my fist, perfect strike, ..he didn't even blink. I myself was kicked in the throat (oops) by a shorin-ryu black belt and was not hurt at all. just saying it's an iffy target. go for the more damageable areas that will break. I'm sure someone will disagree with me, just sharing my experience.

[LittleChina]

cracked up? then they prolli didn't feel it lol since they were rolln

[HuangKaiVun]

You're lucky you never fought ME when I was a TKD white belt, LittleChina.

My teacher was one of those HARD Korean old-school Tae Kwon Do masters who was the type of fighter who knew a lot of nasty jointlocks and pressure point moves. We, even as white belts, worked things like tiger claws, hidden elbows, and flying kicks

We kicked pads and each other constantly, and he had us going up and down lines repeatedly until our eyes were popping out. My blood pressure went down to 100/50 and my pulse went to 60 under his tutelage.

Had you walked into our dojang and said what you said, you probably wouldn't have walked out on your own legs. You'd have been CARRIED OUT - and it would've taken only one of us white belts to do the damage.

That said, you'll learn your lessons the hard way. After you get your butt KICKED, you'll appreciate what I'm trying to SAVE YOU FROM.

[Rolling Elbow]

When i was in grade 5, my judo instructor used to smack our shins and legs with bamboo, hit hundred pound punching bags and really work on conditioning and speed drills. All depends on who is teaching you.......it has been said a hundred times, now go find someone to teach you!

[chingei]

Originally posted by HuangKaiVun
You're lucky you never fought ME when I was a TKD white belt, LittleChina.



Had you walked into our dojang and said what you said, you probably wouldn't have walked out on your own legs. You'd have been CARRIED OUT - and it would've taken only one of us white belts to do the damage.



take it easy, bruce.

[Black Jack]

LittleChina,

Bro I am NOT a big fan of TKD either but as Huang pointed out there is always an exception to the rule. I met one old korean ex-military officer who teaches TKD in Lombard on Ogden Avenue who really impressed me. The reason being, the guy knew what he was talking about as he had walked the walk and was so fast I barely saw the dude throw a few elbows at me, thats right elbows, when I asked him to show me some TKD self defense, he became very aggressive in his attack-which is the trademark of a guy who knows close combat-no high kick nonsense in freakin sight.

On one occasion he nailed me with two jabs to the chest and came real close with a barage of elbow spears to the face, all of this in a blur of MOBILE speed, and this guy was in his 60's.

It kinda put into prespective again that day on how it really is the man and not the system when you get right down to the brass tacs. Now I have never seen another TKD guy like him but he was in my book an exception to the crap mcdojo's around every block.

Peace.

[LittleChina]

Yeah ok, the only thing you proved is training hard shows results. Anyone can learn how to work themselves until exaustion by punching and kicking til they are sore. Bottom line is TKD as a martial art is weak.

Joint Locks ??? Yeah I thought they only taught that to the upper levels.

I don't remember TKD guys being very good with their hands, they chamber everything which makes them more predicatible and some what stiff.

Some of the knife defending techniques are so **** gay and useless, and how are u suppose to defend against attacks when u have ur hands chambered to punch????????

Yeah I would walk into a dojang and act like a hard ass, of course I'd get me ass kicked.

A good TKD can probably beat an average Joe on the street, but can he take someone who trained in something like lets say Muay Thai.... HAha yeah I saw a vid clip of a muay thai guy beating the crap out of a tkd guy. everytime he went for a round house the kickboxer would kick his supporting leg.

Ok well im just ranting but my point is why the hell would I take something that costs x5 more with extra costs and that does not stand up well against other styles, even street fighters????????

[LittleChina]

Cung Le took TKD and ended up with San Shou and Kickboxing.. why???? coz TKD is limited

[HuangKaiVun]

That's because you never met a good TKD fighter who DOESN'T chamber everything and CAN GRAPPLE.

The way my classmates and I were trained, we chambered our punches only in sets but NOT IN BAG WORK NOR SPARRING. If we did chamber, it was to keep our guard up the way boxers do.

Most kung fu styles I know have a chamber. Not all of them do, but a style like Wing Chun definitely does. So if you hate the chamber that much, don't study at a Wing Chun or Shaolin school because you'll be doing plenty of it.

You may have thought that jointlocks and submissions were kept for high levels, and indeed usually they are. NOT SO in THIS school. We worked on joint locks and takedowns (no ground maneuvers other than rolling at the white belt level) every class. Only after I quit did I find out that most schools don't work this stuff.


We didn't mess around with high kicks except in drills. In sparring, we kept our kicks low because otherwise we'd get knocked down. We didn't grapple much, as we were all just white belts at the time.

I'll bet us white belts in TKD would do just fine against white belts in just about any other discipline, including muay thai. Starting from day one, we learned how to FIGHT and even the sport aspect was geared toward that end. I took TKD from that master less than a year and quit only because I had to move. Even today, I still fight almost exactly the same as I learned in that TKD school - just with a lot more moves and a lot more grappling.

And indeed, some of those knife defending techniques ARE gay and useless. TKD isn't a perfect art - no art is.



"Yeah ok, the only thing you proved is training hard shows results"

That's exactly why you are NOT READY TO TRAIN.

[LittleChina]

whoa, where does it say that I am not ready to train hard? you need to calm down and stop being such an *******.

[LittleChina]

99% of TKD schools are money hungry *******s, why would I want to join in on that crap?

[NorthernMantis]

Little China-

I haven't read the whole thread but I think there might be seven star mantsi N.Y.


Oh and umm on TKD's defense

1) My friends friend left kung fu for TKD for reasons unknown.

2)Hwang Jang Lee, the bad guy in drunken master 1 with the good kicks knows TKD and has been known to handle himself very well in the street.

[NYerRoman]

Ok Ok ok ok ok.
LittleChina...
Go shopping for a school in your area. Look around. Get an idea. Our advice is being shot and put down.

It's useless people. One has to go on his/her own and find out.

Besides, LittleChina, you described a NY that seems controlled by mobs. Come on. You don't go to areas and deal with the mobs and gangs. What has gotten into you?

And Shaolinboxer, you're from Phili. Don't say "we New Yorkers.." That urks me. Just a thing of mine. Sorry.

Peace.

[CanadianBadAss]

Wing Cun chambers it punches eh?? if we chambered our punches while fighting it would completly defeat every princple WC is based on.

Oh, and for the same reason that i support gay people coming out, so there will be less competition for me, i think you should study anything but wing chun.

[HuangKaiVun]

So tell me CanadianBadass, what style of Wing Chun do YOU study?

When you start the form, you don't pull your arms up to your sides with fists up before opening into the pigeon-toe stance? And aren't the moves in all three empty hand sets (Siu Lum Tao, Chum Kiu, and Biu Tze) performed often with the reverse hand chambered in a fist by the left side of the body?

I want to see this style of Wing Chun that doesn't do this in Siu Lum Tao, CanadianBadAss. Slant body, Pao Fao Lein, Gee Shim - EVERY style of Wing Chun I've seen has the chambered fist by its side in the sets. If yours is different, you'll succeed in showing me something that I haven't seen before.

In combat, the chamber is not always used. But the way I was taught, the chamber could be a grab that pulled the opponent toward you while doing something to him with the other hand. Throws, chin na, even neck breaks and shoulder dislocations - these are but a few applications of the chambered hands I learned for combat applications.

[Former castleva]

Hi again,L.C.
It seems you made a popular post.Lots of proving about does style work,does your style work,my style beats your style etc.
I really don´t have the time to read them all out but just wanted to remind you about that "bad neighbourhood" stuff you´re into.
Hanging around with suspicious people makes suspicious things happen to you.I understand it´s not easy and all but that´s worthy.
Just a tip,I wish you well.


:)

[CanadianBadAss]

"In combat, the chamber is not always used."

In combat the chamber is never used (unless you're not learning TST WC, then I wouldn't know). I'm sure if you look really hard some obscure "application" could be found, but it wouldn't be Wing Chun(maybe chi na?). As for the forms, that "chamber" is just where the arm waits while training the other side. And the movements are almost always moved from that position to the center line before they start anyway. And if you think you think the movements being started from the center line is an example of "chambering" you simply don't understand wing chun. They start from that point to train principles, one of them being to take the shortest possible path for your fist to hit its target. So while you're fighting, it doesn't matter where your fist is, it takes the quickest path to your opponent’s center line, practically the opposite of chambering.

[dbulmer]

HuangKaiVun

What's meant by chambering? I don't understand the term.
I have never seen the term mentioned in any Yip Man Wing Chun or any other Wing Chun for that matter.

A vertical punch is thrust out from the centreline using the elbow. In the form you stress control and coordination and the movements are very precise (to show the mechanics of the technique - in the case of a vertical punch it stresses where the hand should be from a guard position).

[HuangKaiVun]

When I say "chambering", I talk about having the nonleading hand or limb in a ready position by the person's side.

In Wing Chun or any other Southern kung fu, they often do this by retracting the fist to the side. Look at CanadianBadAss's sifu's website to see guys with one lead hand out and the other by the side.

With kicks, I'm talking about getting the knee up before releasing the lower leg outwards.


In every other style of Wing Chun, the wu sau (protecting hand) is the chamber.

Sometimes when a guy throws an attack, the opponent will also. The guy throwing the attack sometimes has to reverse himself in midstrike just to protect his head from getting taken off. The wu sao will do just that. Actually, that's exactly how one maintains the centerline in combat.

Similarly, a guy will sometimes grab an arm and dislocate the shoulder. The arm that gets grabbed is the one that gets pulled into the "chamber" while the attacker's other hand is performing the break. Obviously CanadianBadAss has never been at either the performing or receiving end of this type of application.

The chamber is prevalent through Wing Chun, as can be seen in CanadianBadAss's website photos. Think about it - why would a style put so much emphasis on chambering and then not use it in combat?

In looking at TST's photos, I see exactly why CanadianBadAss feels the way he does about the chamber.

[Mr Punch]

You're right. There's a chamber in all of the sets. You're wrong about the importance of it's use in combat.

It is used to strengthen the muscles used for tan sau, whilst relaxing the shoulder and chest muscles.

I have been shown a grabbing application from huen sau which pulls back to further down the side than the chamber.
To pull it up to the chamber position in combat would indeed be against the principles of wingchun :)

There is also a position where you bring fuk sau back to lower down than the chamber position, whilst moving forward with a lan and turning.
To pull it up to the chamber position in combat would indeed be against the principles of wingchun :)

There is also a move where you use jing to 'jerk' the twisting fist up and back to the chamber position in practice, as a release from a grab. And shhh... you can use this as a joint locking technique if you cut the opponent's elbow in to your wait for it, surprise, surprise centreline, but don't tell anyone I told you this secret technique... In combat however, we don't go so far...
To pull it up to the chamber position in combat would indeed be against the principles of wingchun :)

Is that clear enough for you? Is it too dogmatic?

Nice to see that you're lecturing wingchunners on wingchun now. How long have you trained in it?

Interesting to see since you've been working on your own style, and you got attacked for it in that thread a while back... how your previously interesting and informative posts have become more and more dogmatic and instructive in tone...

Ah well, I have trouble with my ego too and I haven't invented my own style yet :rolleyes: ...

[Mr Punch]

Oh yeah, and wu sau is not a chamber either: it is a guard or a receiving hand.