phonex eye fist

[churn-ging]

After reading the thread about Yip Mans first disciple and having rene, kj, and nat talk about Lun Gai and the phonex eye fist, I started to wonder if he only taught that in fatsan or if he also taught the hong kong students how to use it to? Did he take it out of the system when he started teaching in hong kong or something? If he taught it in fatsan, then what is the purpose or use of it?

ot:
****, how the hell did everybody get the cuss words to show up in their posts on another thread? **** it!!:mad:

[Nat from UK]

No expert here but -

If you get someone to step on you with bare feet and then step on you with a pair of high heels - the heels hurt.

The same force is concentrated over a smaller area of impact.

The single protruding knuckle of the pheonix eye works on the same principle. The impact force of a punch concentrated over a smaller area. This concentrated force is then aimed at vunerable targets.

I have forgotten the number of knuckle size bruises I have received from training with these guys - on a down side the strikes are painful as they whip in but dont really effect or attack my structure - I suppose if i caught one in the eye socket or adams apple my structure becomes a little irrelevent.

Like I said at the top - No expert here:D

Nat from UK

[black and blue]

If someone "steps on you with a pair of high heels", eh?

:( Fella, these guys you train with should wear regular shoes :p

And now a serious question. When they use this punch, what are the dynamics? Do they throw the punch in a regular fashion (ie. straight punch)?

How much training are they given on 'where' to hit?

Any ideas?

Cheers,

Duncan

[Ish]

I took a pheonix punch to the eye socket about 2 months ago just lightly fighting with my brothe and i couldn't open my eye for about an hour. its definatly a good strike if you get a good target.
I was told at a sam kwok seminar that ip man didn't teach it when in hong kong, im not entilerly sure why bit i think its because he didn't want foerigners to know the entire system and this was just another thing he left out.

[Nat from UK]

I often train in High Heels, to concentrate the force of a kick

and a leather basque to improve my posture

I havn't worked out the application for the peep hole bra yet but then I havn't trained in the knives yet so perhaps its covered in that form ;) ;)

Nat from UK

[kungfu cowboy]

You have just messed up my gender role identity.

[yuanfen]

I was told at a sam kwok seminar that ip man didn't teach it when in hong kong,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How would Sam Kwok know that. Was he present in all occasions when Yip Man taught?
yuanfen

[anerlich]

ip man didn't teach it when in hong kong

Wouldn't matter much, it's used in several other styles, Xingyi being one example, including one called "Phoenix Eye Fist". Hardly a closely guarded secret.

[reneritchie]

According to an article by Frearson sifu on Lun Gai sifu, Yip Man didn't teach the Fong Ngan Choi (Phoenix Eye Fist) at all but just before leaving for HK, told his students to use it.

I believe Leung Ting sifu maintains it actually came from another, non-WCK source (a book on so-called Soft Style Fighting?), while a student of Wang Kiu sifu once mentioned that Wang, originally a Southern Mantis practitioner, had used it, Yip Man sifu had taken a liking to it, and incorporated it into his WCK.

Beyond the Yip Man branch, the Gulao village teachings of Leung Jan sifu include the (sometimes frequent) use of Pheonix Eye as well, and I believe it's found in the Cho branch, and perhaps others.

Rgds,

RR

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


Yes! In Leung Jan's Koo Lo teaching the Foo Ngon was taught, but according to the Fung's, this was not part of his original art and something he added in in Koo Lo. If you look at both students of Wong Wah Bo (Fok Bo Chuen/Leung Jan) you will see that the Foo Ngon Choi was not traditionally part of his teaching.


:cool:


Regards,
Jim

[hunt1]

The only mention of Yip Man and the phoenix eye I have ever heard Sam Kwok mention was a segment in the dummy where Yip Man removed the first because he felt it was to dangerous to teach publicly.This was many years ago so maybe I heard wrong.This story was from Yip chun I believe.

My first WC teacher taught the phoenix eye to me early on.His background was Jui Wan and Moy Yat.I think Yip Man probably mentioned it but didnt spend much time teaching it. Just a guess based on circumstantial anecdotes.

The problem with this and all other stories about Yip Man the ones telling the stories werent there and the ones there dont tell them anymore because of potential conflicts or they are dead.

[yuanfen]

while a student of Wang Kiu sifu once mentioned that Wang, originally a Southern Mantis practitioner, had used it, Yip Man sifu had taken a liking to it, and incorporated it into his WCK.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sounds self serving of WK. How would Wang Kiu know what Yip Man taught others and when?. The phoenix eye is quite common in southern fists-though the formation and delivery systems can vary.
IMO of course.

[MantisWill]

It's practically all we use in SPM. I'm still not confident enough in my skill to use it for real as of now. If forced to fight, I'd more likely use a closed fist, or, more likely, a palm. Or a knee kick. Or if the dude got past my gates, I'd go pressure points. I dunno. Why did I change the gist of this thread? I dunno. Guess I'm still not awake....

[yuanfen]

I am probably not awake either-it's all Vishnu's dream.
In any case who do you study SPM with?
While PE is pretty everpresent in SPM it has other goodies too.
All in good time in both arts it seems..
The PE in each art is a little different from each other and ofcourse the delivery platforms are quite different.
I posted this earlier but must have pressed the wrong
belly button in Vishnu's dream.

[Ish]

Yuanfen
Your quite right sam kwok wasn't there and i have no other reason to believe him than theres no good reason for him to lie, i wasn't going to ask him how he knew that cos it's a bit cheeky IMO. at the end of the day it makes no difference whatsoever.

I also heard (not sure where) that a lot of the knife form teaches how to perform the PE correctly, i think its the way you hold the knifes. does anyone know if this is true?

[yuanfen]

Yes- but IMHO if you dont know how to use the knives properly you will have nothing.

[black and blue]

What about the GF?
Where did this come from?
What are it's benefits?
Anyone here ever used it - what damage can it do?

Cheers,

Duncan

[yuanfen]

ginger fist is another hand formation common to several southern fists. Again, those who use it in wc do so froma wing chun body mechanics - not spm. In close encounters of the worst kind- it
is a jewel. Folks who spar with gloves miss the heavenly glories of the human hand and treat it like a piece of lead. Argh.

[black and blue]

Lead hurts too! :D What are the target areas on an opponent when using the GF?

Could you give an example of its application (beginners like me always need an example :) )

Thanks

Duncan

[TjD]

but what is a ginger fist? whats it look like?

[popsider]

Sort of an inwards side swipe with the fist closed (or maybe part closed) - I am guessing here but would it be to allow a knuckle (hard) strike from a position where one would not otherwise be possible without first drawing back the hand or putting the elbow out - ie your arm is partly extended and to the side of the opponents head ??

I am sure yuenfen can tell you more authoritatively than I.

[yuanfen]

Lead hurts too!

((Arent we more aware of the dangers of lead poisoning?
Why wait for lead to fall on you??))

What are the target areas on an opponent when using the GF?

(The body is full of cavities and pressure points...but it is hard to get to them with stiff muscled moves and karate- Dilman type--
though those Dilman guys can look great if you just stand there and let them do it to to you. Ouch))))

Could you give an example of its application (beginners like me always need an example )

((Trick questing huh? If I slip your jab- I may visit your arm pit if I am ****ed enough to overlook the BO. But dont forget- technique is not enough- you have to have good kung fu))

Yuanfen-stuff happens

[black and blue]

So! You're saying I have bad BO? If you didn't live so far away and if my Wing Chun wasn't so poor... I'd show you that BO in person, Oh Yes!!!

I'm training tonight - will ask my Sifu about the GF and the PE. If he demos on me I may never post here again :(

[yuanfen]

So! You're saying I have bad BO? If you didn't live so far away and if my Wing Chun wasn't so poor... I'd show you that BO in person, Oh Yes!!!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
I didnt say that- but secret weapons can come in strangely handy.
Surprise is important in combat...and if it has to be your BO- well as a prolific but not too insightful poster once said- you gotta do what you gotta do...

yuanfen

[stuartm]

Originally posted by yuanfen
I was told at a sam kwok seminar that ip man didn't teach it when in hong kong,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How would Sam Kwok know that. Was he present in all occasions when Yip Man taught?
yuanfen

Given that Sifu Kwok has repressented both Ip Chun and Ip Ching, I think he is in a pretty good position to know. I attended an Ip Chun seminar where he (ip chun) also stated this. He also siad that his father thought it was too dangerous to teach

[TjD]

a phoenix eye punch is too dangerous to teach, however biu's to the eyes are not?

for some reason that whole "too dangerous to teach" thing doesnt ever sit right with me


however im probably just talking out my ass :) i have nothing but respect for ip chun or sameul kwok


but that line still doesnt do anything for me!


peace
travis

[yuanfen]

My point remains. Yip Man did various things at various times.
No one but YM was present all those times. One can speculate, conjecture, have an opinion but a comprehensive description of evruthing that YM did is
not logically possible. He did teach some things to some people selectvely.Atleast there are some clear resulting sensible transmissions
not imported from somewhere else that are there. Of course
the sons can report what their father said- so can others report things when the sons were not there. Ultimately- you make your own judgement on things.
Ever see Ras****n(sp?) -the Kurosawa(?) film classic?
Sorry for typos.Not intended asa put down of Kwok or Yip Chun or Yip Ching.

[black and blue]

Rasfu*kn?
Rassh*tn?
Rascu*tn?

Yuanfen,

Those German movies of yours should not be discussed on this forum.

:)

[yuanfen]

What? Stupid censoring! One of the greatest movies got censored- at least its name did. Toshiro Mifune is in it- classic
dramatization of the unreliabilty of "observation"...the eye of the beholder... about a bandit accused of raping a woman.

In a way it reminds me of the story of the nine blind men and describing an elephant... some of our discussions of wing chun is that way...
wing chun is:
soft
hard
neither
both
you can use it in the UFC
no you cant
supplement it with bjj, weight training
no if you do enough wc- important functions are in there
center line , no central line
pigeon toe, no pigeon toe
I think the elephant just had a bm.
No it didnt- it is pre birth chi