Why doesnt good wing chun = good fighter?

[Frank Exchange]

This has come up in several threads recently, but I'm sure it has been covered before.

I can appreciate that you dont have to have good wing chun to be a good fighter, but I am not convinced of the opposite.

Wing Chun is a way of fighting, is it not? Overcoming an opponent by use of force?
Some may argue with my definition, but I am not talking about tactics, misdirection, threat avoidance, or other self defence aspects. I'm talking about the barebones, the most basic situation, a fight, when a guy takes a swing at you.

If you are good at Wing Chun, then surely it means that you have skill in overcoming an opponent?

If you are unable to overcome an opponent, I would submit that you are not good at Wing Chun.

I cant think of anyone at my club who I would class as good at WC, but not able to handle themselves in a fight.

What do you guys think?

[Alpha Dog]

Someone who always wins?

[kungfu cowboy]

Real world fight stress can knock out your super powers.

[kj]

Your unrelenting wisdom slays me. :D

[kungfu cowboy]

I am merely a vessel of the great Don Knotts.

[jesper]

Actually it would be more correct to say WC relies on overcoming your opponent with technics, not force.

[jesper]

unless of cause your talking about The force :)

[Mr Punch]

The only reason I can think of that someone good at wingchun would not be a good fighter is if they are unable to think 'outside of the box'. Don't forget, chi sau is not fighting, and not everyone's going to attack you the way a wcer would. Stating the obvious I know, but it's too often forgotten I think.

[dbulmer]

Mat,
Depends on the scenario.
It basically boils down to how you would overcome fear and when pressed would you actually apply the techniques - there are many people of all arts who are skilled but when push came to shove could not apply their skill because they could not handle the stress. As WC guys we train - note train- to defend ourselves and to practice and improve our skill level but remember there's always the chance that someone out there is meaner , more skilled and less fearful than we are.



Frank,

You could be skilled at WC but meet someone of equal skill (of another art) who is physically stronger, does this mean that your WC is not good? IMHO no, you just hit a better MA or fighter.

For me at least a good martial artist will beat an aggressor before it ever gets to being physical. Being in control is not a just a physical thing, it also needs a mental approach.

Just my opinion!

[yuanfen]

Don Knotts- is a great teacher since he was/is also a great student of human folly and arrogance.

Folks can thump their chests and brag on themselves and their teachers but when you open a box of Gump's chocolates- you never know what you are going to get.

[Frank Exchange]

Good replies guys.

kungfu cowboy, how did you find out about my superpowers? Was it my special training mask and cape? I told my mum it would be a giveaway, but she makes me wear them anyway. :)

jesper
>> Actually it would be more correct to say WC relies on overcoming your opponent with technics, not force. <<

I dont know, if we are arguing semantics (eg. as alpha dog says, what is a good fighter?), I would say to be strictly accurate that the intent is to overcome the opponent with concepts, via techniques, most if not all of which are a delivery system for a force. I agree, though, that WC does not attempt to overwhelm the opponent using brute force, but the appliance of force at an appropriate time and place. But, there is a time and place for brute force, too. :)

dbulmer, I am not talking specifics here. Yeah, there is always somebody more aggressive, stronger, faster, harder, longer. :)

I appreciate the points about real life stress. I guess that comes down to the way you train. As WSL said, it is good to bring your training up to the level where you sparring or chisao is a close as possible to the real thing. When you are at the level that this is practical, of course. Then you start to get the shoving, the kicks, the headbutts, knees, hooks, elbows, trips, the oxygen deprivation, the adrenaline etc.

I would think of WC as a complete fighting system. So a skilled WC practioner should have the ability to handle the adrenaline dump and stress. By this definition, being good at WC would imply a related skill in real fighting too.

Or am I just redefining what WC is, so it fits my argument?

[kj]

Originally posted by yuanfen
Don Knotts- is a great teacher since he was/is also a great student of human folly and arrogance.


Now that you mention it, even the "The Ghost and Mr. Chicken" sported some lessons relevant to this thread.

Don Knotts, Red Skelton, KFC - among wise men, in my book. Or is it wise guys?

Perhaps I'm a latent Daoist. :p
- kj

[yuanfen]

Good deep belly laughs helps in the midst of the absurd.

[yuanfen]

One has to be able to laugh at Daoists. Supposedly the monkey king and a companion were passing byan outhouse- one remarked to the other- must be a daoist chamber of metabolic transformation!!

[dbulmer]

KFC,
In essence I agree with you. The only thing is that in WC we train, we spar and by and large we are not fighting - our WC classes are about achieving skill and for many of us going into work the next day without injury is important.

I agree with you about knees, elbows etc but it's still not fighting.
Some people have yet to learn about adrenaline dump/ impaired vision etc and I don't claim to have experienced it myself for that matter but how do you train for that - the anxiety, trembling knees, dry throat (ok a beer is preferable :) ) . You can try to simulate it but it's not quite the same thing. It's the difference between training and real life.

For me WC implies not just fighting skill it's about being wise enough to know when to fight or flee. Real fighting skill is what we train to do when faced with no other alternative.

My own teacher has said that when the genie comes out of the bottle it's pretty devastating - I agree about good WC skill being good fighting skill - it's just I think we need to get a handle on what we train and what we might actually be forced to do.

Some people would not be able to elbow someone in the face (I have no problem with that personally) but I know some people whose skill level is way beyond mine but who would struggle in a real situation. Of course, I have no way of knowing this for sure but it's a feeling I get when sparring.

[TzuChan]

Hello,
I have been practicing Wing Tzun for 9 months now, and I think it's one of the most usefull MA one could practice and use in real life to defend himself. Everything I learned so far is not something like, when he does that, you do this, my sifu always stresses 'when he does that .. you're actually already to late'. So the purpous is as soon as you know for sure something is gonne happen, and you can't run away, and he is about to make his move, right there you should end it. Wing Tzun definatelly works in sparring, if it works in real life depends on only one thing if you ask me : Will you freeze or not ?

*note : I don't mean when he looks suspicious you should smack him silly :) I mean when you see something like a shoulder moving, showing you that there's an upcomming punch, then hit him effectivelly, and then, just run :)

[planetwc]

Three things.

1. Fighters mindset or mentality may be lacking.
2. Conditioning or lack thereof can play a part.
3. Lack of real fighting or competition experience.

If you have great skill but step into the ring for the first time with a veteran Muay Thai guy or boxer in front of a large crowd, the situation could go awry. The technically skilled person, may find they go thru an adrenal dump, and have issues with staying focused given the crowd and attention.

If you don't have the experience of being in a streetfight, then I would guess that there are going to be all sorts of emotional and physical responses going off like alarm bells.

If you don't have the conditioning and haven't weathered an onslaught of attacks from someone commited to really hurting you, who knows how it may turn out?



Originally posted by Frank Exchange
This has come up in several threads recently, but I'm sure it has been covered before.

I can appreciate that you dont have to have good wing chun to be a good fighter, but I am not convinced of the opposite.

Wing Chun is a way of fighting, is it not? Overcoming an opponent by use of force?
Some may argue with my definition, but I am not talking about tactics, misdirection, threat avoidance, or other self defence aspects. I'm talking about the barebones, the most basic situation, a fight, when a guy takes a swing at you.

If you are good at Wing Chun, then surely it means that you have skill in overcoming an opponent?

If you are unable to overcome an opponent, I would submit that you are not good at Wing Chun.

I cant think of anyone at my club who I would class as good at WC, but not able to handle themselves in a fight.

What do you guys think?

[kj]

Originally posted by yuanfen
One has to be able to laugh at Daoists. Supposedly the monkey king and a companion were passing byan outhouse- one remarked to the other- must be a daoist chamber of metabolic transformation!!

And the Daoist laughs also, no? :)
- kj

[byond]

hey planet.....i agree 100%.....in addition...one can be good at chi sao...thats in the context of something where both people are "playing ball" within certain peremiters...but thats like saying im good at chess so i can fight..no...you are good in the context of the chess board with chess rules....so the "game" of fighting has no rules...and anyone you fight isnt going to be as willing as a training partner obviously.... many wc'ers can roll in the look sao platform but have no idea how and when to make bridge contact with a unwilling opponent..which is a crittle part of the fight in my opinion..before i have bridge contact anything can happen...after bridge contact my opponents options become extremly limited (unless they know wc:D )
and everything you listed is crittle..the physiological responce in the body
to adrenalin can be rather "distracting" if one isnt used to it....if your heart rate gets high enough you loose fine motor control funtion...that is not good..lol

so someone imo can be good at wing chun in the context of wing chun, in the structure of wing chun ,but this doesnt equate to a good fighter....that requires extra training or natural attributes and abilities.

[old jong]

It is common in all martial arts that someone with great apparent skills can't handle himself...(not to mention a real opponent!) in a real fight.
You have to be like a ferocious beast with no mercy to really fight! A ferocious beast with self-control and technique. Many have technique but not everybody have the kind of fighting attitude to back skill and technique. It is very different from the ring attitude where you are still protected by rules and a referee to make sure nobody is going to get seriously hurt.The ones who can be very agressive without losing their clear head or temper are the ones who can defend themselves the more effectively.

[Miles Teg]

Good fighter vrs Best Fighter

I think the question is can you use it when you have to, not when you want to.

I think we have to remember that we are not going to find Mike Tyson, Royce Gracie, Shamroock etc. on the street. Or for that matter probably anyone who has done M.A. They are going to be drunk, crack addicts, people in poverty or a gang (in which case your f**t anyway).

In my country there was an article in the news paper recently about a 5 foot blonde lady who had a black belt in Tai Kwon Do. On the way home she was attacked by two big men. She knocked one out and hurt the other. The other guy had to drag his mate away. Later that week low and behold she comes home and finds the same two guys are robbing her house. This time she knocked one out with a high kick and got the other in an arm lock and broke his arm. This time the cops came and arrested these men.

I think if she went around looking for trouble she would eventually find good fighters that could beat her, but she used her skills when she really needed them against people who are probably not very clever.

Ive heard Chu Shong Tin said: In a fight as soon as your arms make contact with the oponent, thats chi sao. I know most of you would disagree with that.

[Alpha Dog]

I love it when people say, "you're just arguing semantics." tell me, if you went to a restaurant and ordered a steak and the waiter brought you a pork chop, would you buy the "you're just quibbling over the meaning of steak" argument? no i don't suppose you would.

does good wing chun = good jiujitsu? even if you think both are good ways to combat or self defense, the answer cannot be "yes" because they are not the same thing.

"Good fighter" is used as a convenient way of saying "he seems to be able to take care of himself, how I am not sure."

If you knew he was a jiujitsu practicioner, you would say, "well, it is because of his jiujutsu!"

If you don't know his style, you will just say, "he took care of himself, must be a good fighter" (if the opponent didn't look too bad either).

Playground bullies can become good fighters, simply because they learn by doing. without a fancy name or crest to sew into their jean jacket, they could still probably articulate something like a system to explain how it is they either mitigate the damage done to them or inflict more onto the opponent in a fight.

It isn't something that pops in from the transcenent realm.

so, does good wing chun = good fighter? no. good wing chun = good wing chun.

[urban tea]

If you don't have balls , all the chi sau in the world won't help you.

=]

[Miles Teg]

Thats not very encouraging for the females of this forum.:eek:

[EnterTheWhip]

One who cannot apply his Wing Chun is not proficient in it. That does not translate into the ability to fight, which requires the use of techniques, but the capacity to neutralize via application of principles.

[Alpha Dog]

I see Wing Chun as a subset of Fighting Ability; introduce Neutralizing Ability and the conclusion? a greater sphere? intriguing....

[TjD]

if your "good" wing chun doesnt make you a good fighter, then you arent doing it right and therefore it is not good wing chun

wing chun is not wushu, the point of wing chun is to be a good fighter; if it is not accomplishing that goal, it is worthless and not good wing chun

peace
travis

[yuanfen]

Terribly careless and sexist comment. Also-FYI- some very able harem guards
in several societies were also eunuchs.

[azwingchun]

I feel that this is a great topic. I have actually battled this in my head for many years. I was once told by a Wing Chun Sifu that there are great Wing Chun teachers who can't fight, and there are great Wing Chun fighters who can't teach. He told me that my goal should be both a great teacher and and great fighter. And at first I wasn't really sure I understood what he was saying. Though, I have ran across teachers who fell into the catagory of the above mentioned statement. I have also watched videos where the guy seemed very knowledgable and then when he showed actual application it was absolutley terrible, meaning distance was off, stance wasn't stable, too much force was added, etc. But again his teaching was very sound. I guess this follows the phrase "practice what you preach". I now think of this this way, if you study medicine out of books from the privacy of your own home but never actually perform it you have all the knowledge needed but not enough real life experience to actually perform it flawlessly. It doesn't matter if you can quote medical journals flawlessly or not, you still don't have the hands on needed to be great at the actaul performance of medicine. So, with this in mind, would this person (if allowed) be a good teacher still? Possibly, but wouldn't be very reputable because of lack of experience. Well, to get back on subject of Wing Chun, what about someone who has studied Wing Chun for 30 years but never had a street confrontation? Would you train under him? Is he still a great Wing Chun teacher?

I tell my students that while in class, no matter how hard we spar it is still somewhat of a controlled environment, due to the predictablity of the class, they know as well as I know, no one is actually trying to take thier life and at any time one of us can stop the training. And unless faced with a real street fight, they will never truely know what thier true skill, mental state or basic outcome will be. Does this make sense? I think due to this controlled environment, many teacher who don't have true street skills but are very well trained in Wing Chun can almost seem God like. This is my opnion and may not be yours. Though think about how many martial arts teachers out there who don't have any real street survival skills are making a killing teaching martial arts, not to mention they have brainwashed thier students into beliebving that they are the greatest. And again, they may not have these skills but does this mean that they can't put out great students? I am not so sure I have the answer for this question. Think about it, which one of Ip Man's sons said this? "I have never been in a fight, so I am undefeated.";)

[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by TjD
the point of wing chun is to be a good fighter; if it is not accomplishing that goal, it is worthless and not good wing chunShift your priorities while you're young and impressionable... You don't want to comform to the rest of the Wing Chun world.

[TjD]

shift my priorities to what?

travis

[Spark]

Originally posted by TjD
shift my priorities to what?

travis

WC might have more to offer you than just learning how to beat someone up. :eek:

[yuanfen]

TRUE!!!

[TjD]

wing chun has given me so much more than "learning how to beat someone up"

i'd say its taught me the most valuable life lessons in the world :) one of which being:

if you want to be good at something - work for it!

i can't think of anything else more valuable that i've learned from anything ;) i think its the true key to success

hehe

**edit**
beating someone up is just a nice benefit of doing WC :)
**end edit**

peace
travis

[TjD]

back to the point however

while wing chun teaches me a lot of cool valuable stuff - its still a martial art, and its point is to be a good fighter:)

why do people swim? to be good swimmers

if your WC doesnt make you a good fighter, your missing some element of it

peace
travis

[dezhen2001]

People can swim for health, physiotherapy and a whole host of other reasons, same with WC ;)
But it does teach you a skill, which has to be practised hard and developed. Whether you use it for fighting or whatever is up to you as everyone is different and trains for different reasons :)

david

[Alpha Dog]

I do it for the incredible respect and admiration I get from open-minded Westerners, ever-ready to embrace new ideas....


LOL! It hurts!

[TjD]

deep down i think the reason i do WC is that im a masochist... and just like to be hit :)


or mabye not!

[Alpha Dog]

anyone got any insights into what a good fighter is? i gave a possible definition, nobody touched it.

[kj]

Originally posted by Alpha Dog
anyone got any insights into what a good fighter is? i gave a possible definition, nobody touched it.

This isn't exactly the kind of subject that sparks my interest, and the arguments become almost necessarily stale. [Boring, macho, and more often than not, filled with so many subjectivities, assumptions, and leaps of logic that it gives me a tummy ache.]

However, I will reluctantly confess that your proposition ...


What's a good fighter? Someone who always wins?

... was refreshingly thought provoking.

Regards,
- kj

[yuanfen]

True...and just maybe without going to Minneapolis!

[kungfu cowboy]

:D

[Alpha Dog]

Rest assured, no intent to be macho or sexually harrassing. I just felt that, in my own case, "good fighter" has been one of those concepts carried around and used in conversation without a solid understanding of what it meant. I was curious to see if others had a more clear grip on that concept or not.

I'm still not sure I have got it. Perhaps "holy warrior"? LOL I will tan da my way to jihad...

Back to reality for a second: in class, it is easy to witness people looking to define their WC progress in terms of "my WC is better than his" and in some cases it can be defended. I think the "but am I a good fighter?" question hangs in the ether as well but it is not so easily satisfied. since it bothers people so much, and since it is seemingly so emotionally tied to the "am i good at Wing Chun" question, the "good fighter" concept cannot help but influence the WC student's progress, am i right? after all, one is constantly being used to measure the other.

i just thought it might be a novel question for people to ponder, free of politics, lineage and bum-puckery. probably of little concern then.

Cheers,

AD

[kj]

Originally posted by Alpha Dog
Rest assured, no intent to be macho or sexually harrassing.


I didn't read it that way at all; no worries.

The topic itself, IMHO, lends to the kinds of puffery, self-justifications, and hapless thinking I described.

Your inquiries, to the contrary, appeared more objective and perhaps even a bit more introspective than I am accustomed to seeing on such a topic.


I just felt that, in my own case, "good fighter" has been one of those concepts carried around and used in conversation without a solid understanding of what it meant.


I understand and agree. Simplistic assertions of "good fighter" are so general and subjective as to be, IMHO, frivolous.


Can one even define such a thing without describing the infinite scenarios and contexts to which such an assessment might apply?

Is being a "good fighter" (whatever that means) an inherent quality or is it a state that can change over time?

Is "good fighter" a relative measure or an absolute one, and against what standard in either case?

Backing up a bit further, what is the distinction between someone who has the "capability to fight" but refrains from unnecessary engagements versus someone who is "a good fighter" in actuality? Does being a "good fighter" necessitate the "action" to prove a point?

Further, assuming some evaluation of a person's fighting ability or martial arts skill, how does that particular type of assessment edify us? [My assertion seems to be as yours, that these are different things with a common subset between the two.] In other words, why is the question of a "good fighter" even important?


These are just a few lines of inquiry. Added the list you, and a few others have already generated, I still think the exploration barely touches the tip of the iceberg. So I only offer these rhetorically.

Sometimes, the value of questions is in the asking, not in the answering.


I was curious to see if others had a more clear grip on that concept or not.

IMHO, the question of "what is a good fighter" can be an interesting question for spurring contemplation of related issues. However, I'm presently of the mind that an answer to the immediate question is vacuous.



Back to reality for a second: in class, it is easy to witness people looking to define their WC progress in terms of "my WC is better than his" and in some cases it can be defended. I think the "but am I a good fighter?" question hangs in the ether as well but it is not so easily satisfied. since it bothers people so much, and since it is seemingly so emotionally tied to the "am i good at Wing Chun" question, the "good fighter" concept cannot help but influence the WC student's progress, am i right? after all, one is constantly being used to measure the other.


I tend to agree with your general assessment.

When something, as you say, "bothers us so much," IMHO, there is merit to an examination on how much our own egos factor into the general discomfort. I include myself in the "us."

I personally favor benchmarks focused on personal improvement. My essential competition, is with myself. This seems a fundamental and necessary basis for other external, albeit less comprehensive comparisons anyway.


i just thought it might be a novel question for people to ponder, free of politics, lineage and bum-puckery. probably of little concern then.

LOL, yes, without those, probably of little concern. :p

Cheers back at ya.
- kj

[Alpha Dog]

Insofar as there are good fighters and people with good Wing Chun, I suspect that people using "good fighter" to describe someone mean that said person can defend himself and that the person does in fact fight or at least has. regardless of hairsplitting over numbers of victories, percentages, and weight classes, i do think that is the way the phrase is intended.

of good Wing Chun, however, how is that measured? there are a variety of interpretations of Wing Chun out there, which leads me to believe that no one can in fact be very good at Wing Chun until he is as fluent at it as his mother tongue and that his Wing Chun is as unique as a fingerprint. even if there were only one version, and the forms, principles, techniques (blah blah) were as cut and dried as instructions on assembling a bicycle, I'd still be inclined to believe that "good" lies in the individual uniquess of a person's art when the standard forms are applied.

Anyone who studies piano to Grade 6 level, I believe, can play most sheet music competently -- are you gonna line up and pay money to hear it though?

There, way out on a limb for you.